Evolution of OOTS art style

[Freelance Henchman]

I just browsed through some older strips, and I think even though the art style in OOTS is fairly minimal, it still managed to evolve somewhat from "fairly crude" to "simple but elegant". Around strip 125 the style seemed to improve quite quickly and reached a plateu of sorts, although improvements were still made later (especially for Xykon, I thought).

Some direct links for comparison:

1: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html

100: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html

125: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html

150: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0150.html

200: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html

300: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html

400: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html

This isn't an art criticism thread though, I'm just amazed how different those old strips look even though it's all stick figures :smallsmile: The mouth shapes seem to make the most difference.

[Alysar]

The only difference I notice is the shape of the frames

[Freelance Henchman]

The only difference I notice is the shape of the frames

I could swear the mouth shapes change noticably, or maybe the stay the same shape more consistently from panel to panel.

[Glorfindel]

At some point, Haley mentions an art upgrade (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html). That's a definite evolution in style.

[titan_monarch]

You forgot the obvious Art Upgrade. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

Darn, ninja'd!

[Freelance Henchman]

You forgot the obvious Art Upgrade. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html)

Darn, ninja'd!

Heh, I don't even remember reading that! Thnx!

[Post]

mmm, it does look far better, particularly V. Can't put my finger on what exactly.

[Pyro]

I noticed that too. Look at this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

vs

this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html

[BobTheDog]

This makes me think that Haley must be pretty pissed. She looks the same since day 1, while all the others have had their looks upgraded (not to mention Elan's Dashing Outfit).

[Clamps]

It's definitely improved.

But Josh Lesnick, of Girly Fame, still doesn't approve (http://superhappy.livejournal.com/271857.html)


Order of the Stick
Stick figure comic #3, and often praised as having a great stick-figure style, which is something I don't agree with in the least. To me, a good stick-figure style is when the artist uses the time he saves to really go broke on the expressiveness and body language of the characters. Rich B., on the other hand, gives his characters pretty ordinary and limited facial expressions, and uses stiff poses made from copy&paste templates. Moreover, it's an adventure comic, yet virtually the entire strip takes place on a single plane, staged like a sitcom. At best, it's a stick figure comic that looks good for someone who isn't really an artist. Again, not inspiring.

Discuss!

(Personally, I think the strength of OotS comes from the writing, not the art. Though the art's gotten pretty damn decent)

[BobTheDog]

It's definitely improved.

But Josh Lesnick, of Girly Fame, still doesn't approve (http://superhappy.livejournal.com/271857.html)



Discuss!

(Personally, I think the strength of OotS comes from the writing, not the art. Though the art's gotten pretty damn decent)

That can be answered with the FAQ:


Q: How come your art sucks so much? Can't you draw?

A: Grumble. Let's be clear: I choose to draw stick figures because I think they bring the right air of humor to the strip, and because they create a unique style. People often criticize the OOTS style under the assumption that I am incapable of doing 'better'. I would argue that there is no 'better' or 'worse' involved. I use stick figures because the stick figure style is what is right for the comic. If I were doing a serious fantasy epic, I would draw more realistic pictures.

[Zoolooman]

It's good because of the writing. The art, I find, is effective but often forgettable, though I will admit that OOTS uses image composition in a way that often makes jokes work. Look at 454 for an example.

[TigerHunter]

(Personally, I think the strength of OotS comes from the writing, not the art. Though the art's gotten pretty damn decent)
Agree 100%. And with the FAQ statement above.

[Wikkin]

Ever watch an old episode of The Simpsons? It's inevitable.

[Froody]

It's definitely improved.

But Josh Lesnick, of Girly Fame, still doesn't approve (http://superhappy.livejournal.com/271857.html)

I just can't take his opinion on that seriously after seeing what he thinks is "good stick figure art" :smalltongue:

[Roderick_BR]

Because Josh Lesnick is the God of Webcomics :smallamused:
Meh, he kept criticing several comics, because they can't draw their characters in the same fluid way he makes his, therefore they are lazy buns. Yup
And for him, stick figures need to look like complex walking spaghettis, defeating the whole purpose of the joke about the art being simple. That not counting how Rich can still make great body language with "copy paste" images.

I simple love Xykon's "wtf" expression when he meets the ghost-martyrs :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I'll have to add this... His comment about VGCat's "anime syndrome": complete round eyes when surprised is more common in american cartoons(specially 80ies ones) than anime... :smallamused:

[ThorFluff]

I third (or forth?) the statement that the art is secondary to the humor, which is secondary to the story. So the art is tertiary?
I mean "When you don't spend time on artwork blah blah blah..."
MAYBE he spends his time writing the damn story, or telling the damn jokes!
this comic updates thrice a week (instead of every third as most others) and the other ones is most commonly one strip Puns with no coherent story!
I mean, damn i would still love Oots, if it were a frikkin Book, with no artwork At all!

[factotum]

That can be answered with the FAQ:

Or just by looking at comic 339, where Rich includes a couple of pencil drawings of Nale and Thog as they'd look if drawn in a more "proper" way...

[The Extinguisher]

ThorFluff: Two things. The rules are between Humor and Art, and if it was a book, we'd miss the visual jokes.

factotum: Or in 'The Gleaner' article, and a few others.

I agrees with everyone here, excpet for that link to Josh Lesnick.
I don't read Oots for the art, I read it for the story. The art, I admit, is pretty cool, and is hard to do (or maybe I just suck at Inkscape =D)

[ThorFluff]

ThorFluff: Two things. The rules are between Humor and Art, and if it was a book, we'd miss the visual jokes.

yeah i know, but with some suave narrating a'la Bored of The Rings, you'd still have one of the greatest books of all time ;)

[Pvednes]

It pretty much happens with all comics and cartoons that are around for a while.

[Chronos]

mmm, it does look far better, particularly V. Can't put my finger on what exactly.V's cape became more three-dimensional, and got a little embroidery at the hem. Roy's boots are now more detailed, and Durkon got a little more detail on his holy symbol, and a belt buckle he didn't have before. And for all the characters, the lines seem to be a bit cleaner now, as if the conversion from vector to pixels was done with a more sophisticated program.

[TheoCryst]

I agree with the earlier sentiment: besides the "Art Upgrade," there is a definite, though subtle, change in the quality of the artwork. The mouths are drawn differently, as are arms. Everyone's faces are more expressive, and their movements are much less stiff. For some reason though, I can't put my finger on when it happened. But I've definitely noticed it too.

[rashambo]

I think old critic boy doesn't realize his opinion really doesn't matter. What super successful web comic does he do that I've never heard of? He didn't mention sluggy freelance either.

[EyethatBinds]

It's definitely improved.

But Josh Lesnick, of Girly Fame, still doesn't approve (http://superhappy.livejournal.com/271857.html)

I think it is a bit humourous that this guy will accuse artists of being lazy, and take the whole summer off from his wedcomic due to stress.

[Icewalker]

I'd say it was less of an evolution of style as attention to detail. He started putting more into the expressions of people, and what they were doing, when a lot of webcomics use simpler repetition.

[SPoD]

Josh Lesnick has a long history of taking shots at anyone more financially successful/popular than he is whose art doesn't measure up to his standards of "True Art". Which is even funnier because his drawings look like he vomited on the page.

I think the best thing about OOTS art is how clear it is. I can't remember very many conversations about, "What is he doing in panel 3?" or "Who is that in panel 7?" OOTS art is very clear in its ability to convey information, particularly in Rich's fantastic use of character design. That he can have so many unique identifiable characters using circles, squares, and color is pretty amazing. Lesnick's "good stick figure art" example wouldn't hold up if you tried to modify it into 50+ instantly idenifiable characters; Rich's does.

The point of art in a comic is to convey information, not to look pretty on the wall. Rich's art conveys info better than most photorealistic drawings.

[Freelance Henchman]

But Josh Lesnick, of Girly Fame[/url]

That guy seems to have an ego the size of Jupiter. He sounds like a pretentious Art F*g.

[Lord Herman]

Blah blah blah

I have only one thing to say to this: hundreds of thousands of OOTS readers disagree.

[Aerusan]

It's definitely improved.

But Josh Lesnick, of Girly Fame, still doesn't approve (http://superhappy.livejournal.com/271857.html)



Discuss!

(Personally, I think the strength of OotS comes from the writing, not the art. Though the art's gotten pretty damn decent)


This is what I was about to post, before I realized he can't take public criticism himself and demands other Live Journal users be the only ones who can respond to his ego-centric face-stuffings.

Your idea of "good stick-figure art" is terrible at best. And your criticism of Order of the Stick is proof of that. What Rich Burlew saves on time not drawing more detailed characters is clearly put into a perfected script which actually resembles that of an on-going storyline, as opposed to the other webcomics you read, which have no plot whatsoever other than to spam puns and punchlines. Rich B. once said before that the way he draws isn't because that's the limit of his talent. Its because that's the style that fits with the comic. And that is a style choice which is beyond whatever self-proclaimed right you seem to have towards critiquing the work of others. By the way, who made you and your underwhelming art-style the defining statement on what comics should be?

"It looks good for someone who isn't an artist." That comment right there is pretty ego-centric. There's a difference between critiquing art and being a jerk with a superiority complex. Art is subjective as well as being a matter of opinion, so like you have the right to say that Mr. Burlew's style isn't any good, I have the right to say your opinion on his art sucks.

Its too bad really. I wanted to see his reaction. :smallfrown: But I guess laziness prevails, as I'm not about to go out of my way to sign up for a Live Journal account just to essentially tell him he's wrong. He'll find out someday, in a miserable fashion I'm sure. I really dislike people like him. :smallsigh:

But on the topic at hand! .. : I think OoTS has made some interesting strides in the way of how the strips are drawn. What it seems to me is that The Giant has gotten into a system of how he does his art, resulting in a much more crisp, finalized feel to each page. Its not so much that the expressions are any better. Its not even that any of it is drawn with more skill or effort per se. Its that each drawing is definite, clear, and without hesitation.

*shrugs* I could be entirely wrong too. :smallbiggrin:

[Mad Scientist]

I personally like to think that part of the reason the art is more complex now is that the characters and the story are much more complex. But that's just me.

I do agree that the style has evolved. Compare the battle scene in Xykon's throne room to the azure city battle. Lots more going on in the later comics with many more perspectives including awesome flyover scenes from the zombie dragon perspective. Keep up the great work!

[RobbyPants]

I could swear the mouth shapes change noticably, or maybe the stay the same shape more consistently from panel to panel.
I almost wonder if he's built up a library of base images for quick copying and pasting. I've noticed this too. Both the eyebrow and mouth shape seem more consistant.

[comicadv]

If you want to know about why the art gets better read this...

Evil Plot: (Just a Joke:smallwink: )

1. The Giant has always wanted to have a dramatic lifelike webcomic, but he knew he would have to get people hooked first, so he made a funny joking webcomic.

2. Since then he has made the comic more dramatic and put it these "art upgrades".

3. He will continue until he has his perfect comic and we won't notice or care because the change will be very slow and subtle.

One other thought:

The giant said OOTS does have a finite end. Does he mean it will end and become a new comic?

[Freelance Henchman]

If you want to know about why the art gets better read this...

Evil Plot: (Just a Joke:smallwink: )

1. The Giant has always wanted to have a dramatic lifelike webcomic, but he knew he would have to get people hooked first, so he made a funny joking webcomic.

2. Since then he has made the comic more dramatic and put it these "art upgrades".

3. He will continue until he has his perfect comic and we won't notice or care because the change will be very slow and subtle.

One other thought:

The giant said OOTS does have a finite end. Does he mean it will end and become a new comic?

So in the end OOTS will be stock photography of people put into poses?

I think OOTS will end with all major plot points resolved, and all heroes either done for or with fulfilled missions. I hope very much that there will be another OOTS-style comic afterwards, but I doubt it will involve Roy Greenhilt and Co.

[Roderick_BR]

So in the end OOTS will be stock photography of people put into poses?
(...)

Alien Loves Predator (http://www.alienlovespredator.com/) works like that, and works great for their style of humor. :smallsmile:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

What are all the art upgrades since strip #1?

Heroes:
Roy: Boots, crown on chain
V: Embrodery on Cape and Collar.
Durkon: WWTD Amulet, new belt/buckle.
Elan: An entirely new look!

Belkar: Nothing I've noticed
Haley: Nothing I've noticed

Everyone: Better mouths, more expressive faces, more expressive body languages.

Villians:
Xykon: Rounder skull shape (first appearance was decidedly oval), crown placement more consistant.
Redcloak: Nicer amulet,
MitD: Hello Goblin Umbrella.

Miko: Blue to Gray

Anything else anyone notice?

[Jawajoey]

Aside from the upgrade, I notice a very subtle change from the earliest comics, which quickly turns into what we're used to now. Most noticeably by far are the mouths. The comic has gotten more detailed lately, too.

But from day one, it looked great to me. The style is perfect for the comic, and looks great regardless.


Josh Lesnick, though. Wow. I've heard some stupid people talk before, but this guy is incredible. I can't believe how completely wrong his opinion is about stick figures. Saying that they're supposed compensate by being expressive physically is just... just.. so... completely wrong. That picture of "good" stick figure art? Hilarious in how completely and utterly opposite of correct it is.

(The following is me ranting about how stupid he is. Please ignore.)

Penny Arcade has gone down hill artistically, I think. I preferred the simple cartoons to the shiny, over stylized stuff there is now. Art shmart, do what looks good.

XKCD- Perfect as is. Absolutely perfect. The comic ISN'T about art, it's about relating to your nerdy eccentric engineer/mathematician. Get over your artistic high horse and realize that no everyone is in for the same reasons as you, especially readers.

"By default, stick figure comics are not particularly inspiring to other artists."
Who the hell cares about whether a comic is inspiring to other artists? If someone wants to do that, they'll make art. The guys at Cyanide and Happiness certainly aren't out for that, so why would you criticize them or any stick figure comic for failing to be inspirational?

Least I Could Do- I agree that getting rid of Chad Porter was a great move, but not for any reason as high brow as head placement. Lar is great, and there's nothing wrong with the facial expressions. He does expressions great, and if the same one crops up, it's A) appropriate, and B) solely your own problem if you don't like it.

And last but not least, proof that Josh Lesnick is an arrogant moron with no sense of what comic readers actually give a crap about:
"Real Life is copy/paste crap from a non-artist that's looked exactly the same since day one. "
That's right. He's a non artist who makes a good comic. That's because he writes jokes, he don't draw. He uses Illustrator for godsake. Discounting Real Life for the art is idiotic. It looks fine. It's a simple, clean looking style that suits the comic. Nothing wrong with it. It is not crap. But no, Joshy boy here didn't even criticize it for how it looked. He criticized it because it is copy/paste. He equated that with crap and moved on. As if anything but the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel itself is crap by virtue of the fact that it isn't unique. Can you believe this guy? Criticizing the art of a comic by completely ignoring the actual aesthetics of it.

[Lavidor]

I don't remember where he said it, but it all started as cheap substitutes to minatures. I think I'll go make some.

[nerulean]

There's an overall regularity in the newer strips that's lacking in the older ones, and the art update does make a big difference, simple though it is. Adding anything superfluous to the actual form of a picture almost always makes it look considerably better.

Also, there's been a fair increase in file size (almost 50%) since the beginning of the comic run, especially in the last hundred pages or so, which with a .gif means the images look slicker all round. That could be that imperceptible change everyone's talking about.