Summon Monster + Empower question

[thecrimsondawn]

So obviously it will boost the number of monsters you roll since its a random value, but do any other factors come into play before empower spell kicks in?

What I am referring to is Superior Summoning feat, the racial bonus of the race Samsaran, and any spell or item that may adjust the mathematical values of a spell.
I would assume that it would be (Spell+Empower)+other values for balance reasons, but I wanted to ask just in case.

[Bullet06320]

usually you apply bonus' in the most advantageous way unless a stated order is given

[Feint's End]

You only multiply the variable part of a spell as it says in the description of empower spell. So you'd summon 1d? x 1.5 (rounded down) + other boni creatures.

On a slightly related note this bugs me when using empower power on psionic energy powers since only the variable part gets multiplied and not the bonusdmg (especially annoying if you also have favoured power).

[Psyren]

On a slightly related note this bugs me when using empower power on psionic energy powers since only the variable part gets multiplied and not the bonusdmg (especially annoying if you also have favoured power).

Actually, the bonus damage is part of the variable. For example, a 7d6+7 fire damage Energy Ray should be read as "A random value from 14-49", and an empowered one would be "1.5 * (14 to 49), round down."

[Feint's End]

Actually, the bonus damage is part of the variable. For example, a 7d6+7 fire damage Energy Ray should be read as "A random value from 14-49", and an empowered one would be "1.5 * (14 to 49), round down."

Quite frankly this is up for debate. While I do agree that it is probably RAI to read it this way a fixed point of extra dmg isn't variable in any meaning of the word.

So every powerpoint has a variable compound 1d6 and a fixed compound (+1, +0, -1). In the case of Empower Power the variable compound gets multiplied by 1.5 (as per "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half").

However an arguement could be made that since it has a variable compound the whole power counts as variable and therefor the overall dmg gets multiplied, as per "An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal" and "nor are powers without random variables". Additionally (as you did) you can argue for the modifier being part of the variable but I'm not sure that would be valid.

By strict RAW I think that the first arguement is stronger though because of the aforementioned quote specifically pointing out the variable effect.

edit: If the augment would read "treat the throw as one higher/lower than the rolled result. This can lead to a result higher than 6 and lower than 1" then it would be part of the variable.

[grarrrg]

Quite frankly this is up for debate.

FAQ'd! (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o71)
"For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus."

[Psyren]

Quite frankly this is up for debate.

As noted by grarrrg, debate resolved.

[Thealtruistorc]

Actually, the bonus damage is part of the variable. For example, a 7d6+7 fire damage Energy Ray should be read as "A random value from 14-49", and an empowered one would be "1.5 * (14 to 49), round down."

By that logic, does that mean that an empowered 7-pp-augmented expansion would increase your size by 3 steps?

[Psyren]

By that logic, does that mean that an empowered 7-pp-augmented expansion would increase your size by 3 steps?

No - only powers with random, numeric variables can be empowered. Expansion's effect is not random - there is no dice roll associated with it.

Also, it's not "by that logic" - it's RAW.

[Spore]

FAQ'd! (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o71)
"For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus."

Before I start and calculate my new Fireball damage with bloodline modifications, this FAQ just says LEVEL based bonus. There is no mention of fixed spell variables (as in 1d4+1) or from outside modifiers (favored class bonus, feat modifications, traits or racials).

[Andezzar]

A numeric value is variable as long as it is not fixed. It does not matter whether the variance is in the form of yDx or yDx+c

[grarrrg]

Before I start and calculate my new Fireball damage with bloodline modifications, this FAQ just says LEVEL based bonus. There is no mention of fixed spell variables (as in 1d4+1) or from outside modifiers (favored class bonus, feat modifications, traits or racials).

The Cure spell is just an example.
Re-read the FAQ without the example:
"Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus, does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes."

Does you spell have a numerical bonus and a die(dice) roll? Then Empower will increase it.

[Zanos]

For those who don't like FAQ, the feat description in the PHB includes:

For example, an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile).
Making it very clear that flat +'s on numeric rolls are multiplied.

[Andezzar]

I don't think the PHB is relevant for Pathfinder games. I don't have the rulebooks, but the PF SRD at least does not include that clarification.

[Zanos]

I don't think the PHB is relevant for Pathfinder games. I don't have the rulebooks, but the PF SRD at least does not include that clarification.
Whoops. Missed the tag. :smallredface:

In that case, PF FAQ is actually official rulings, as opposed to 3.5.

[Spore]

The Cure spell is just an example.
Re-read the FAQ without the example:
"Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus, does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes."

Does you spell have a numerical bonus and a die(dice) roll? Then Empower will increase it.

So you'd rule a 10th level Draconic/Primal Fire Kobold's Empowered Fireball hits for (10d6+25) x 1.5 -> avg. 89,5?

[Psyren]

So you'd rule a 10th level Draconic/Primal Fire Kobold's Empowered Fireball hits for (10d6+25) x 1.5 -> avg. 89,5?

What part of "die roll with a numerical bonus" is unclear to you?

I haven't read "primal fire kobold" but assuming you've calculated correctly, then yes, if something hits for "1.5*(52 to 127)" then the average damage will be 89.

[Andezzar]

BTW what's a primal fire kobold and where can I find one?

[Feint's End]

As noted by grarrrg, debate resolved.

Well by pure RAW this is only relevant for spells specifically since powers are their own set ;). So I'm still not convinced it is RAW. This part of the ultimate psionics might be written before that and the creator might not agree with the oficial FAQ ruling for spells.

I'm just saying that RAW it still doesn't multiply the bonus necessarily (still up for debate).
However it is highly likely that it is intended to multiply the bonus dmg as well and I'll rule it like this. Still RAI though.

Edit: I should also note that the tradeoff for using empower is a different one. In the case of spells the spell simply deals more dmg while using up a higher slot (which is the tradeoff). When using a power the tradeoff is sacrificing flat dmg for a multiplier. While this isn't directly related to the discussed topic it simply shows that metamagic and metapsionics don't work exactly the same way.

[Psyren]

Well by pure RAW this is only relevant for spells specifically since powers are their own set ;). So I'm still not convinced it is RAW.

In that case, I'll just make the point that whether you are convinced or not is irrelevant to this thread, which is not about psionics anyway. Believe what you wish.

[grarrrg]

BTW what's a primal fire kobold and where can I find one?

Primal is a Sorcerer Wildbloodline. It's Arcana is pretty much identical to the Draconic Arcana (which is quite similar to the Orc Arcana) > if energy type matches, you get +1 damage per die roll with spells.

To use both Primal and Draconic, you'd need to take Crossblooded, and strictly RAW, Crossblooded does not (generally) allow Wildbloodlines (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rai) (note: I said strictly Raw, because even the FAQ itself admits that most Cross+Wild combinations don't really have much conflict).
But this is a semi-moot point, as you could just go Draconic/Orc and have the same effect > +2 damage per die with spells.

As for Kobold, that would likely refer to the Kobold>Sorcerer alt-Favored Class bonus of +1/2 point of damage to [chosen energy type] spells.

The "fire" part is just referring to the fact that Draconic/Primal/Kobold all have to pick "fire" in order for this to work with Fireball.