New to 5e rules.

[brys]

I have played many different games in the past and I am normally pretty good at learning rules. I played a lot of 2e, and 3.5e, but have recently, (2 weeks ago), started a 5e game. Everyone, including DM is new to this format and more familiar with 3.5e, so we sometimes make wrong assumptions and have to back track. The party so far, is Dragonborn fighter, Rock Gnome rogue, (planning to go assassin later), Halfling ranger, (lightfoot I think and planning to go hunter), Hill Dwarf cleric of Thor, and I went for Human warlock.

Still at 1st level, and just, (by the skin of our teeth), survived a dust off with way too many kobolds. You can take a guess at which prebuilt scenario we are playing. Made it into the church having taken down the group at the back door and the patrol. Planning to regroup and make a break for the keep.

Anyway, that aside, a few issues have come up so far, that searching through the PHB hasnt solved, maybe the answers are in the DMG, which I havent seen yet. I have asked WotC, and was basically told to ask my DM or make it up myself.

The cleric cast Thunder Wave on a tight formation and the knockback effected the front rank, but the back rank saved, so the front rank were thrown back into the space where the back rank stood. Several question arose for which we could find no ready answer.

The front rank enter an occupied space at the end of the effect. Do they take further damage, and does the guy standing there? Do they remain in that space, if not what happens? Do they all need to roll to remain standing? One of the original front rank was killed outright by the damage from the spell, does this change the effect from the knockback on his body? To be fair on players and DM, we decided to assume no further damage, but the creatures knocked back automatically went prone in an adjacent space to the back rank, who had time to brace and deflect the incoming bodies. This got me thinking about similar issues. What if they had been pushed over a small pit/trench, (but not ended the movement there), would the force be enough to push them over it, or would they fall into it? Also, what would happen if they could not move back the full distance due to a solid, fixed object. e.g. A wall, 10', 5' or directly behind them, prevented them being pushed? Would they fall over, take crushing damage, a slam attack, or would the wall simply negate the effect? I realise there are also pull effects from spells like Lightning Lure and Thorn Whip, which may have similar rulings.

I took the GOO pact, and have been making use of the Awakened Mind ability to mess with the cleric, sending him, 'messages from Thor'. His player is waiting for me to mess up so he can get revenge. Do I have control over how these 'telepathic utterances' sound in his head, are they recognisable/similar to my normal speech? Can I change the way they are perceived by the recipient? Is there any limits, saves, resistance to this ability? It would seem there is not, but I may have missed something.

By the end of the fight, the party was nearly wiped out, rogue was bleeding out, cleric had stabilised the ranger, before being taken down himself, and later being stabilised by my warlock. The fighter had used his 2nd wind, and was hurt but holding, and I had avoided most of the attacks through luck and staying behind partial cover for most of the fight. We did take on a group that was too big and were lucky no one died. (We have just come from an 11 man, 18th level 3.5e game, so we got complacent about what we could manage). Cover is always relevant, but is it more important in 5e? Are there other tactical shifts to consider? I had been pushing the party to carry on when they wanted to stop to rest, because I assumed that we did not have time to waste an hour or more, if the church was under attack already. We might have arrived to find everyone dead/captured. Also, I think the cleric assumed he would get some spells back, but only warlock gets spells on short rest, we would have had to long rest for 8 hours for that, did I do the wrong thing?

[Sir cryosin]

My DM and me when a player uses a spell like thunder wave if there a creature behind it they get a dex save to try to get out of the flying body's way. If they fail it they take some damage I can't remember right now and get knocked prone. If there is a wall there they get slammed into it causing bludgeoning damage. If there is a hole dehind them they get knock into it. 5e if you can't find a rule just think about it logically. That's what we do at are table.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The cleric cast Thunder Wave on a tight formation and the knockback effected the front rank, but the back rank saved, so the front rank were thrown back into the space where the back rank stood. Several question arose for which we could find no ready answer.

The front rank enter an occupied space at the end of the effect. Do they take further damage, and does the guy standing there? Do they remain in that space, if not what happens? Do they all need to roll to remain standing? One of the original front rank was killed outright by the damage from the spell, does this change the effect from the knockback on his body? To be fair on players and DM, we decided to assume no further damage, but the creatures knocked back automatically went prone in an adjacent space to the back rank, who had time to brace and deflect the incoming bodies. This got me thinking about similar issues. What if they had been pushed over a small pit/trench, (but not ended the movement there), would the force be enough to push them over it, or would they fall into it? Also, what would happen if they could not move back the full distance due to a solid, fixed object. e.g. A wall, 10', 5' or directly behind them, prevented them being pushed? Would they fall over, take crushing damage, a slam attack, or would the wall simply negate the effect? I realise there are also pull effects from spells like Lightning Lure and Thorn Whip, which may have similar rulings.

RAW says: DM's discretion. I would say that if a creature is pushed into a space that is occupied, it just doesn't get pushed. Unrealistic, I know, but it's simple and easy to follow. Just treat a space with a creature in it the same as how you would treat a space with a wall in it.


I took the GOO pact, and have been making use of the Awakened Mind ability to mess with the cleric, sending him, 'messages from Thor'. His player is waiting for me to mess up so he can get revenge. Do I have control over how these 'telepathic utterances' sound in his head, are they recognisable/similar to my normal speech? Can I change the way they are perceived by the recipient? Is there any limits, saves, resistance to this ability? It would seem there is not, but I may have missed something.

DM's discretion again. I would rule that all telepathic speech sounds the same; you hear it in your own mind's voice. That's why language isn't an issue; the telepath only sends ideas, which are then interpreted by the recipient. I would say that actual gods are exempt from that rule - they can appear to you inside your head, using their own voice/appearance.


By the end of the fight, the party was nearly wiped out, rogue was bleeding out, cleric had stabilised the ranger, before being taken down himself, and later being stabilised by my warlock. The fighter had used his 2nd wind, and was hurt but holding, and I had avoided most of the attacks through luck and staying behind partial cover for most of the fight. We did take on a group that was too big and were lucky no one died. (We have just come from an 11 man, 18th level 3.5e game, so we got complacent about what we could manage). Cover is always relevant, but is it more important in 5e? Are there other tactical shifts to consider? I had been pushing the party to carry on when they wanted to stop to rest, because I assumed that we did not have time to waste an hour or more, if the church was under attack already. We might have arrived to find everyone dead/captured. Also, I think the cleric assumed he would get some spells back, but only warlock gets spells on short rest, we would have had to long rest for 8 hours for that, did I do the wrong thing?

I would always encourage you to push on without resting. But then, I am a DM at heart... :smallamused:

Seriously though, I know which module you're playing, and there is no way you have time to rest until you get inside the keep. If you stopped for even five minutes, I'd be throwing more kobolds at you (probably in twos and threes so you didn't die). As a general rule of thumb, you should be taking no more than two three short rests per 8 hours of adventuring.

[Mhl7]

If you are used to 3.5, forget it! 5e has a very different mindset: there rules are left vague on purpose. It is the ultimate call of the DM to decide on all the situations you have described.
The team from WotC answered you to ask your DM, because that's exactly how this edition is supposed to be. The DM rules using the guidelines from the manuals.

Also, the first scenario of the module you are playing is deadly. Like the first scenario of OotA. In this edition there is no more "appropriate fight for CR", sometimes things get way behind your capabilities and you simply have to run for your life.

[brys]

Thanks for the comments so far, much the same as I had assumed, I am liking the simplification over the sometimes confusing rules in 3.5e, but I guess there is plenty of time to muddy the waters with future supplements.....
I am also wondering over the best way to advance my character, as I have never played a warlock before in any version of the game. Stats, in case it matters, S11, D14, C14, I14, W14, C14. CN. Fixated on ancient lore.

1st level, I picked: Eldritch BLast, Mage Hand, Armour of Agathys, Dissonant Whispers.

2nd level, I aught to take Hex, and will get 2 Invocations, (probably the Agonising Blast and Repelling Blast, just to try out the effects).

3rd level, I will take the Book of Shadows boon, gaining 3 cantrips: Chill Touch seems to have a lot going for it, Thorn Whip, if the push/pull effects work out useful, but not really sure. Different damage types seem an option, but this is my best chance to grab non class abilities. Guidance and Resistance seem a good idea too, but the cleric has both already. I will probably swap one of my Invocations for Book of Ancient Secrets, (and 2 rituals: Find Familiar and a.n.other). Spell choice: maybe Shatter for AoE, or Mirror Image for defense, I guess I could even swap one of my first level spells for the other option.

4th level, I am thinking Minor Illusion for my warlock cantrip, maybe Suggestion and/or Darkness for my 2nd level spell and take the Spell Sniper feat, instead of a stat gain, gaining Shocking Grasp, along with doubling some spell ranges, and ignoring cover.

Any further comments/suggestions gratefully received. Hopefully after this stage I will know what I want to do, I did think about multiclassing from EK3 for the weapon bond et al, or another caster class, but decided for this character at least, I would stick with vanilla warlock, to see what they can do on their own. We might well make it all the way to level 20, but should at the very least get to 15-17, so I should get to see most of the class features in action. If you do post alteration, please also include your reasoning behind them, so I can make an informed decision. I do have an overall plan for my character motivation, but its a bit too vague to describe well atm.

[gfishfunk]

A couple of quick notes:

1. First level is really tough due to a low HP pool. If you can hang in for another 2 levels, you will find yourselves in less dire shape after each encounter. This is 5e's only real failing.
2. Hex is great to grab early and always useful. Grab it ASAP
3. Armor of Agathys really shines when you cast it at a higher level. Its decent at a low level.

It honestly sounds like a sweet gaming group. I love the idea of trying to mess with the Cleric's head, although I see dire repercussion for you in the future.

[brys]

1. First level is really tough due to a low HP pool.
3. Armor of Agathys really shines when you cast it at a higher level.

This is exactly why I chose it, temp HP/cold damage for survival/deterrent, Dissonant Whispers seems to scale well too, but I wonder if it might be better to upgrade it, maybe to Detect Thoughts, which works well with Awakened Mind and also allows me to detect invisible 'thinking' creatures in range, and then probe their minds to find out their intentions! or even Mirror Image which complements the defense from Armour of Agathys, without overlapping it. Beat my AC first, then hit the real me, then drain my temporary HP and take cold damage while you do it, all before you even get a touch on me.

[gfishfunk]

This is exactly why I chose it, temp HP/cold damage for survival/deterrent, Dissonant Whispers seems to scale well too, but I wonder if it might be better to upgrade it, maybe to Detect Thoughts, which works well with Awakened Mind and also allows me to detect invisible 'thinking' creatures in range, and then probe their minds to find out their intentions! or even Mirror Image which complements the defense from Armour of Agathys, without overlapping it. Beat my AC first, then hit the real me, then drain my temporary HP and take cold damage while you do it, all before you even get a touch on me.

Yeah, its a good combo. It sounds like you have a good grasp on the rules.

[MaxWilson]

There is no RAW on being pushed into another or through creature's space. My ruling, for what it's worth, would be that if you wind up in the same space, the smaller creature (or both if they are equal size) uses the "squeezing into a too-small space" rules (disadvantage on Str/Dex rolls) until they disentangle each other; but the creature into whose space you are moving can make a DC 15 Str (Athletics) check to prevent you from moving through its space, or a DC 10 Dex (Acrobatics) check to wind up on top (and untangled/no disadvantage) for that first round no matter who is larger.

The creature being hurled gets no roll to avoid being tangled because it already had a chance to resist being hurled. It also prevents PCs from gaming the system by hurling PCs into monsters.

Yes, this does make Athletics and Repelling Blast pretty good.

[Petrocorus]

Still at 1st level, and just, (by the skin of our teeth), survived a dust off with way too many kobolds. You can take a guess at which prebuilt scenario we are playing.


Actually, i'm new to 5E too, and i'm going to dm, so i would very much like to know.

[brys]

Actually, i'm new to 5E too, and i'm going to dm, so i would very much like to know.

I assume you mean which scenario? Hoard of the Dragon Queen. We have only run one session so far, after finalising characters and grouping up. Still getting to grips with the different rules and rereading everything. Many spells have the same names as before but work in a different way. Same goes for feats and other features of the game mechanics, so pay particular attention to PHB pages 143 and beyond, don't assume you know any of it, because a lot has changed, and some times the smallest details can catch you out.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Many spells have the same names as before but work in a different way. Same goes for feats and other features of the game mechanics, so pay particular attention to PHB pages 143 and beyond, don't assume you know any of it, because a lot has changed, and some times the smallest details can catch you out.

This is good advice.

And as much as a lot of the details have changed, it seems like the general feel and intent of the rules hasn't changed. It's not that hard to update old monsters, spells etc. to the 5e style.

[brys]

I was reading through some related posts and put up a reply to one before realising that it was from last year, so I deleted it and I am pasting it in here instead. Hope this doesn't infringe any rules.


A warlock with spell sniper and eldritch spear has a range of 600 ft. with a d10-per-attack cantrip that suffers no disadvantage at that range and does more attacks per use at higher level (starting with a second one at level 5).

And it's force damage.

I had to hunt a little for this, new to 5e, the extra attack comes from, Thirsting Blade Invocation, which is restricted to warlocks with the Pact of the Blade, so not all warlocks have access to extra attacks without multiclassing.

Essential: your choice of spells and incantations, and especially feats. You can change one spell and one incantation each time you gain a level, but feats and cantrips become fixed, and priorities can change as you gain more options, so keep reviewing old choices as new spells become available, remember warlocks always cast every spell at their highest spell level up to 5th. Low level warlocks need to focus on survival more, I went for Armour of Agathys, temporary HP is your friend and the cold damage will often kill a damaged foe, saving you wasting another round finishing an enemy that only has a few HP left. Also this spell only gets better as your spell slot level increases, so it is a keeper in most cases. Pick something to try out as your second level 1 spell. I tended to save casting my 1 spell until I could see a safe haven to rest, relying on my cantrips until then, you will be spamming Eldritch Blast a lot! Mage Hand was my other pick.

If you are considering multiclassing as I was before I decided to go vanilla warlock, you might look at the pros and cons of starting as a bard, sorcerer or even rogue or fighter for 3 levels, before switching to warlock for the rest. Warlock 3, and then another class would work too, but the main advantage of warlock for me, is that although they get limited number of spells, they recover them more often. Don't be afraid to cast off your levelled spells, because your cantrip(s) are strong and you will always recover your spells before any other caster.

Bard and sorcerer, have the added bonus of using the same casting stat, but give you access to different spell lists, bards give you a better skill base and expertise, whilst sorcerers have great synergy on spells, allowing you to turn your easily recovered slots into points for metamagic, or turning your max level warlock slots into 1st level sorcerer slots if that is all that you need and saving the rest of the points for other spells.

Rogue and Fighter multiclasses, I was mainly looking again at skill versatility, proficiencies and the 3rd level path specialities that you can gain, before mainlining warlock power. Both have a spell casting varient too, so it would work either way round. I would consider Thief and Arcane Trickster archetypes, and for fighter I was mainly looking at Eldritch Knight archetype and specifically the weapon bond feature.

[Vemynal]

Did you come into Dragon Lair Saturday? If so I'm the player who passed ya the note lol

[brys]

Nope it wasn't me, why do you think it might be?

[georgie_leech]

I was reading through some related posts and put up a reply to one before realising that it was from last year, so I deleted it and I am pasting it in here instead. Hope this doesn't infringe any rules.



I had to hunt a little for this, new to 5e, the extra attack comes from, Thirsting Blade Invocation, which is restricted to warlocks with the Pact of the Blade, so not all warlocks have access to extra attacks without multiclassing.


Actually, all Attack Cantrips scale with character level, getting damage bumps at 5, 11, and 17. Eldritch Blast is unique though in that rather than just getting a more powerful blast, you getter extra blasts, each of which gets the effects of Agonizing and Repelling Blast. Focus fire or spread the pain out, Eldritch Blast is the single most damaging Cantrip in the game.

[KorvinStarmast]

About Thunderwave:

On a failed save, a creature takes 2d8 thunder damage and is pushed 10 feet away from you. Note, that doesn't have to be in a straight line.

On the SRD, page 92 (I'll get the basic rules cite anon)


You can move through a nonhostile creature’s space.
In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature’s space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you.
Remember that another creature’s space is difficult terrain for you.
Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can’t willingly end your move in its space.


Putting all that together, the kobolds getting blown back are being blown back towards non hostile creatures. Thunderwave could have knocked the front line kobolds past the guys behind them and no further ruling is needed, as long as there wasn't something there at the 10' behind them mark.

It could also have knocked a few of them at angles into an open space.

[brys]

Eldritch Blast is unique though in that rather than just getting a more powerful blast, you getter extra blasts

Magic Missile?

[georgie_leech]

Magic Missile?

Is not a Cantrip and requires higher Spell Slots to get more missiles. A level 20 Wizard and a Level 1 Barbarian with the Magic Initiate Feat both get 3 missiles for 1d4+1 out of a first level slot.