[Pathfinder] Build comparison - Raging Oracle

[punchbeard]

Hey all,
Let's compare two similar builds of multiclassing the Lame oracle + Barbarian/Bloodrager multiclass. Oracles with the lame curse get fatigue immunity, and Fast Movement cancels out the reduced base speed. The result is rage cycling, in which you can toggle rage (or bloodrage) on and off as free actions at essentially no cost.

Suppose that a campaign's level cap is 14. Bloodrager is kind of a workaround to avoid the Rage Prophet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/rage-prophet) prestige class prerequisites, and it's Charisma based like the Oracle. Of course, multiclassing into a caster/semi-tank build this way is only a good option if the party already has a dedicated caster and/or reliable source of arcane damage. So, the options are...

Build A: Oracle 10, Bloodrager 4 (Aberrant Bloodline)
Pros:
+ Gets 10-foot reach during bloodrage; or take Primal archetype and gain 2 rage powers.
+ Can cast during bloodrage (so no concern about dying from Constitution drop when you rage cycle).
+ Can use wands/scrolls of both arcane and divine spells. Also gets Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.
Cons:
- No access to level 6 spells, no Oracle level 12 mystery spell, no level 11 revelation. Fewer Oracle spells overall.

Build B: Oracle 12, Barbarian 2
Pros:
+ Access to level 6 Oracle spells and more Oracle spells in general. Caster level 12 instead of 10.
+ Reach and other level 1 Bloodrager spells can be replaced by potions.
+ Requires fewer Barbarian levels to get a rage power.
Cons:
- Risk of going to negative HP during rage cycling, since you can't cast when rage is active; although a careful caster would ideally have self-healed before HP gets that low.
- 4 fewer rounds of rage per day; no access to wands/scrolls of arcane spells (without investing in UMD).

What do you think is better, A or B? Or is there an even better option?

[Psyren]

Option C would be Oracle VMC Barbarian. That would be my personal choice since I hate losing caster levels when I don't have to, plus it lets me do 7/10 Rage Prophet and keep 9ths, but I wouldn't unequivocally rule it as being "better."

For all three options, Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat) solves a few problems.

[punchbeard]

Option C would be Oracle VMC Barbarian. That would be my personal choice since I hate losing caster levels when I don't have to, plus it lets me do 7/10 Rage Prophet and keep 9ths, but I wouldn't unequivocally rule it as being "better."

For all three options, Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat) solves a few problems.

Given the level 14 cap, Rage Prophet isn't a favorable option; the total BAB is lower and it sacrifices an Oracle mystery for some mediocre spells. VMC is an interesting idea, although losing so many feats and Fast Movement is unfortunate.

Maybe Oracle 13 / Bloodrager 1, with Mad Magic, is a viable Option C. The feat's wording is kind of ambiguous though: "You can cast spells from any class that grants you spells while in a bloodrage." I interpret this as "While in a bloodrage, you can cast spells from any class that grants you spells." With this setup, you still lose level 7 Oracle spells and you don't get rage powers. But, you gain more Oracle spells, you can Bloodrage, you can use Bloodrager scrolls/wands, and you get Bloodrager class skills.

[Psyren]

Sorry, I missed the cap. Then you're right, forget RP, and instead I'd do option B + Mad Magic. 6th level spells are superior to anything in Option A imo. and you can Moment of Clarity to cast as needed without losing rage benefits.

EDIT: I forgot Option D - Oracle 12/Unchained Barbarian 2. Using Calm Stance, you can cast during a rage without risking death, and then deactivate it as a free action at the beginning of any turn where you're ready to start swinging again.

[grarrrg]

forget RP

This is the safest all around option.
Just completely erase it from your mind.


EDIT: I forgot Option D - Oracle 12/Unchained Barbarian 2. Using Calm Stance, you can cast during a rage without risking death, and then deactivate it as a free action at the beginning of any turn where you're ready to start swinging again.

The question here becomes, what Curse?
Lame is ideal for Orig-Barb and Bloodrager due to Fatigue Immunity to enable Rage-Cycling.
Un-Barb has no need for Rage-Cycling, so Lame loses it's main advantage.

[Psyren]

This is the safest all around option.
Just completely erase it from your mind.

lol, here we go again



The question here becomes, what Curse?
Lame is ideal for Orig-Barb and Bloodrager due to Fatigue Immunity to enable Rage-Cycling.
Un-Barb has no need for Rage-Cycling, so Lame loses it's main advantage.

The one-two-punch of Dual-Cursed + Wolf-Scarred + Deaf is useful on a gish. Wasting also works as barbarians don't usually care about being sociable.

Powerless Prophecy is a newer one that seems interesting.

[punchbeard]

Sorry, I missed the cap. Then you're right, forget RP, and instead I'd do option B + Mad Magic. 6th level spells are superior to anything in Option A imo. and you can Moment of Clarity to cast as needed without losing rage benefits.

Mad Magic's prerequisites are either Bloodrager or the Perfect Clarity rage power, not Moment of Clarity.


EDIT: I forgot Option D - Oracle 12/Unchained Barbarian 2. Using Calm Stance, you can cast during a rage without risking death, and then deactivate it as a free action at the beginning of any turn where you're ready to start swinging again.
I tried out Unchained Barbarian before and didn't like it that much. Your stats don't actually increase, so you don't gain +2 to CMB or Fortitude. Also, a level 12 or 13 Oracle can buff their strength to absurd levels, so you don't get the extra x1.5 damage from 2-handed weapons. It's only a +1 or +2 difference, but that adds up in the long run. More importantly, note the description for Unchained rage:


While in a rage, a barbarian gains a +2 bonus on melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, thrown weapon damage rolls, and Will saving throws. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. She also gains 2 temporary hit points per Hit Die. These temporary hit points are lost first when a character takes damage, disappear when the rage ends, and are not replenished if the barbarian enters a rage again within 1 minute of her previous rage.

That last clause means that Unchained rage cycling gets rid of the bonus HP!


The one-two-punch of Dual-Cursed + Wolf-Scarred + Deaf is useful on a gish.
Dual-Cursed... Two extra revelations? Yes, please! Wasting looks like a good option, the only catch being how to RP. I'd pass on Wolf-Scarred because most Oracle spells require verbal components. Why would an Oracle want a 20% chance to lose a standard action?

[Psyren]

Mad Magic's prerequisites are either Bloodrager or the Perfect Clarity rage power, not Moment of Clarity.

I'm aware of that; the benefit of the feat acts on Moment of Clarity, and MoC is a prereq for PC.



I tried out Unchained Barbarian before and didn't like it that much. Your stats don't actually increase, so you don't gain +2 to CMB or Fortitude.

You get +2 to melee attack rolls, which means you get +2 to melee CMB checks (which is basically all of them.) CMB checks are attack rolls; they just didn't need to spell it out.


Also, a level 12 or 13 Oracle can buff their strength to absurd levels, so you don't get the extra x1.5 damage from 2-handed weapons. It's only a +1 or +2 difference, but that adds up in the long run. More importantly, note the description for Unchained rage:


That last clause means that Unchained rage cycling gets rid of the bonus HP!

Er, you're not supposed to rage cycle as an unchained barbarian. Are you trying to make a decent Oracle/Barb, or just a rage cycler specifically? :smallconfused:



Dual-Cursed... Two extra revelations? Yes, please! Wasting looks like a good option, the only catch being how to RP. I'd pass on Wolf-Scarred because most Oracle spells require verbal components. Why would an Oracle want a 20% chance to lose a standard action?

That's why Deaf is the second curse, it removes the verbal component from all your spells (thus removing the failure chance.)

[punchbeard]

Er, you're not supposed to rage cycle as an unchained barbarian. Are you trying to make a decent Oracle/Barb, or just a rage cycler specifically? :smallconfused:
The idea of this build is to get the basic benefits of both classes while giving up as little Oracle power as possible. This role would be switch-hitting melee attacks and self/party buff spells in combat, hence the necessity for casting during combat.

Unchained barbs can only cast during a rage with Calm Stance, which makes you lose your attack, damage, and will bonuses, and also requires at least 2 levels dip. Even worse, switching stances requires a move action, so you'd be less effective in combat. I found that the move action tax really reduced the effectiveness of unchained rage powers, and the only real benefit of unchained barb is the temporary HP - unchained barb gains survivability at the cost of effectiveness.

By comparison, dipping a single level into Bloodrager and taking the Mad Magic feat gives you the main benefits of rage while keeping your ability to cast and cycle. Rage cycling with only 1 level won't let you spam any "once per rage, do X" abilities, but you'd still get +4 Str, +4 Con, and +2 Will while maintaining caster ability.


That's why Deaf is the second curse, it removes the verbal component from all your spells (thus removing the failure chance.)
Sure, but Lame + Fast Movement makes you immune to fatigue at no real penalty. You can even pull this off with 8 Barbarian/Bloodrager levels and dipping 1 into Oracle with lame curse. Even if you don't want to rage cycle, you can still be a viable combatant once the rage ends.

I'm talking about the inverse, where it's mainly Oracle, with 1 level in Barbarian/Bloodrager. At the cost of some high-level spell slots, you get the following:
* A supernatural power where you gain morale bonuses to Strength, Constitution, and Will saves. Activating/deactivating this power is a free action, and you can use this power a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + your Constitution modifier (not including temporary increases). Unlike Bull's Strength / Bear's Endurance / etc., (1) this stacks with enhancement bonuses from wondrous items, (2) the rounds don't have to be consecutive, and (3) this doesn't use up any daily spells.
* Some extra HP because of the d12/d10 hit die. Not much, but it's still nice.
* Most of the physical skills become class skills. Investing one skill point gives you +4 instead of +1.
* If you dip into Bloodrager, then now you can use wands with arcane spells.
* You maintain your race's base speed in any armor.

[Psyren]

Well, if "basic benefits" are all you're after then sure, Bloodrager 1/Oracle X with Mad Magic is probably what you want. I'm not sure exactly what you're ragecycling for at that point, but it would lose you the least amount of Oracle stuff.

If you're looking for something from a rage power though, you'll need either 2 levels of Barb/uBarb, 4 levels of Bloodrager, or Oracle 11 with VMC.

[grarrrg]

Well, if "basic benefits" are all you're after then sure, Bloodrager 1/Oracle X with Mad Magic is probably what you want. I'm not sure exactly what you're ragecycling for at that point

His concern with Ragecycling appears to be not with the Benefits, but with the Penalties.

I do believe his primary concern goes something like this:
*casty*
*pop into Rage for 1 round, smash some face, drop out of Rage*
*back to casty, but doesn't want to be fatigued in case he wants to use another round of Rage next turn*

Which, this is a lot of effort spent to negate a fairly minor, infrequent bonus/penalty.

[punchbeard]

edit - Revised to clarify information.


Which, this is a lot of effort spent to negate a fairly minor, infrequent bonus/penalty.
Although there are magical ways for Oracles to gain morale bonuses, I don't think any add +4 to strength AND constitution AND will saves. The morale bonuses stack with any other enhancement, luck, competence, or other bonuses that you may have at a given moment.



Are you trying to make a decent Oracle/Barb
Yes.

A decent compromise is Oracle 12 (Dual-Cursed, Battle mystery), Barbarian 2 (Invulnerable Rager). You don't even need MoC as long as you keep an eye on HP while raging. Carry some potions just in case. Since this makes Mad Magic unnecessary, there's an open feat for Bolstered Resilience later on (yes, I now see that you've had a similar conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?314634-Bolstered-Resilience-%28Pathfinder%29) already). Knowing the Stoneskin spell is not sufficient because the effects are temporary, but Invulnerable Rager gains DR at Barbarian level 2, and that counts. The result is a capstone ability to get 110+ minutes of DR 10/adamantine, which can be raised to DR 20 via a swift action.

There's one last alternative, which sounds silly but might work out: Oracle 12 / Bloodrager 1 / Brawler 1 (Mutagen Mauler). There are some minor perks, but the main advantage is that a level 1 mutagen's alchemical bonus stacks with morale, luck, etc. Natural armor is hard to get anywhere else, and even though DR 10 beats an extra 2 AC, you can make multiple mutagens per day, whereas the Iron Skin revelation is only usable once per day. I'm marking it as a "maybe" but I still prefer "Option D*".

[Second Arrow]

Option C would be Oracle VMC Barbarian. That would be my personal choice since I hate losing caster levels when I don't have to, plus it lets me do 7/10 Rage Prophet and keep 9ths, but I wouldn't unequivocally rule it as being "better."

For all three options, Mad Magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mad-magic-combat) solves a few problems.


Popping in to say that I second VMC Barbarian. You are already one level behind on spell progression, which makes multiclassing even more painful.

Personally, I'm fond of VMC Barb + Warsighted (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Oracle%20Warsighte d) Oracle archetype for temporary access to combat feats.
Dedicated Adversary (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dedicated%20Adversary)is maybe of particular note at level 1 (and of note for being a great "temporary" feat), since having Favored Enemy on speed dial as a move action is pretty slick.

Wood Mystery makes you even more accurate with the Wood Bond revelation, and with Fate's Favored & Community-Minded as traits you can really stretch both the rounds of rage, as well as the uses you get from spells like Divine Favor.

[punchbeard]

Personally, I'm fond of VMC Barb + Warsighted (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Oracle%20Warsighte d) Oracle archetype for temporary access to combat feats.


That's pretty good. I didn't see it before. What if VMC isn't an option?

[punchbeard]

Alright, I don't think anyone is reading this anymore, so I'll close it up. I've done more math and research on this, and the point is that multiclassing out of Oracle into Barbarian/Bloodrager does not accomplish much. Oracle is the divine equivalent of a Sorcerer, and since casting is your main toolkit, giving up too many caster levels is bad. That said, an Oracle can be better suited for melee combat than a Sorcerer, so dipping 1 (2 tops) into a full BAB class (e.g., Fighter) could work if done properly.