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[Jon_Dahl]

A group of PCs are talking with a monster with formidable mêlée and spellcasting cababilities. The monster decides to cast a spell, but the action never happens because the attempt initiates combat. Everyone rolls initiatives and the monster acts last. The PCs act upon the information that the monster tries to cast a spell and make tactical decisions based on that information. When the monster's turn comes up, it hasn't acted yet: the PCs have been aware of it, so no surprise round has happened. It made a hostile act when it wanted to cast a spell, but the action was never initiated before the PCs had acted. Casting a spell is no longer a viable option so it decides to plow over the PCs using its raw fighting powers.

The players complain that it had tried to cast a spell, so in the end it didn't.

Furthermore, another scenario, very similar to the first one. I have actually made a thread about this one before, but here we go again:
An NPC wizard talks with PCs and suddenly decides to cast a spell in order to kill them. Combat is initiated. However, one of the PCs is hidden, so he gets a surprise round. He blasts the wizard with a spell, but the wizard's casting is not affected, since no action has been taken yet. The surprise round means the surprisers get an action, but no one else gets an action before or during that round. The wizard survives the attack, wins the initiative and kills most of the PCs with a massive spell that succeeds extraordinarily well.

[erok0809]

The way I've handled "sucker punch" tactics in my games is that that's basically the surprise round. In other words, it happens before initiative is rolled, because even though the people being attacked were aware of their attacker, they weren't aware that combat had started, barring spells that make you not surprised like Foresight. If someone had one of those active, I would have them and the attacker roll initiative first and have a regular surprise round. This whole thing is a little more of a house rule though, since that's not really how awareness works in the rules.

I remember a topic similar to this one from a while back, where the most common response was that everyone might roll initiative at the time of the sucker punch, but the people who act before the person attacking out of the blue wouldn't know that combat is going to occur, so their actions wouldn't change until after the sucker punch has occurred.

So basically, in your first scenario, the PCs wouldn't have known combat was going to start on their first turn, so rather than having them act tactically knowing that a spell was going to be cast, they would continue acting as normal, and then the monster would cast his spell.

The second scenario seems to work fine, as you've written it. As the DM in that situation, I might have given the enemy wizard a concentration check based on damage, to reward the PC for acting tactically, but that would be fiat.

[eggynack]

Why would the players know that the monster was casting a spell? The monster should only be casting a spell when they're casting a spell. If the spell was catching them by surprise, then it's a surprise round, and there's no room for action between the spell plan and the spell. If it wasn't, then just roll for initiative, and on the monster's turn have him declare a spell. In spell casting, there is usually only do or do not, with little in the way of try. Same basic principle in the second situation. If the wizard was alone in his surprise round, then just declaring a spell is fine, but with the hidden PC you should have probably allowed the PC to go either first or second in said surprise round, and have the wizard declare casting when they're actually casting. You're being generally premature here in terms of action declaration.

[Troacctid]

I remember a topic similar to this one from a while back, where the most common response was that everyone might roll initiative at the time of the sucker punch, but the people who act before the person attacking out of the blue wouldn't know that combat is going to occur, so their actions wouldn't change until after the sucker punch has occurred.

So basically, in your first scenario, the PCs wouldn't have known combat was going to start on their first turn, so rather than having them act tactically knowing that a spell was going to be cast, they would continue acting as normal, and then the monster would cast his spell.

That's how I would rule it as well. Roll initiative. If you win initiative, you get to not be flat-footed against the sucker punch, but the sucker-puncher still goes first.

However, I'd only do this if the sucker punch in question can reasonably be done in a surprising manner. Anything longer than a standard action and I'd just have everyone roll initiative normally., because you're giving them enough time to respond. So essentially, it's like a surprise round where you don't get to catch everyone flat-footed.

[Jon_Dahl]

Why would the players know that the monster was casting a spell?

There must be some indication that the monster is doing something hostile therefore initiating combat. This is a must.

[nedz]

RAW doesn't tell you when to roll initiative. I frequently start encounters with some, limited, initial actions before rolling initiative.

In the first picture - did anyone have a readied action ? Apparently not: so the monster casts their spell and then initiatives are rolled - after all the spell may be harmless. The hidden character doesn't act until their initiative, when they still get to make a surprise attack. Now if the PC's had readied actions then these might trigger when the Monster casts it's sepll - depending upon the condition.

Surprise rounds are only really relevant for ambushes or meeting engagements etc. Both of the pictures you gave are examples of ambushes.

[Lightlawbliss]

There must be some indication that the monster is doing something hostile therefore initiating combat. This is a must.
Wait, your players don't start fights on the grounds of "it exists" or "it looked at me funny"?

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, the rules for initiative work pretty well most of the time, but this is one spot where there's a little bit of a gap. Personally, if I had already said that a monster was engaging in a particular kind of action, I wouldn't change it even if I lost initiative.

[eggynack]

There must be some indication that the monster is doing something hostile therefore initiating combat. This is a must.
Maybe, but it doesn't have to be so specific, or indeed actiony at all. It can just be moving in, or saying something, or acting all aggressive. And, to some extent, initiative is already doing something hostile. You say, "Roll initiative," and that means that means that the opponent wants to start something. If there's a more complex motivation, then that's established prior to the combat. Declaring initiative time is actually a really efficient and compressed way of delivering information that's rather complex. Said information being that the enemy combatants are clearly about to battle, and that the party knew that before the opponents started seriously acting, and that there's some existent hostility. It's a bit wonky as systems go, because the signal of hostility is necessarily a bit nebulous, but it's the system being worked with here, and trying to work around it this way is going to produce these sorts of problems.

[Quertus]

If every time you tell the party that they see a monster, one player interrupts with, "I cast a spell" - and they always get to do so before initiative is rolled - then I think it's pretty clear that something is broken.

No, if the parties have a way to detect a hostile action, then it is time for initiative. Sometimes, an opposed spot check, or an opposed sense motive is called for, to make sure that they perceive and comprehend the aggressive action, but, by default, hostile action = initiative.

And, if the players get to pick their action when their turn comes up, so, too, do the monsters. Yes, when I saw the monsters at a range, I went to draw my bow, thus triggering initiative; however, when they won init and closed to melee, I'm choosing to take a 5" step back and cast sheep. Or sleep. Darn auto correct.

[Darth Ultron]

In a case like this, I let the first attacker have a supplies round.

Remember, a round is only like ten seconds. And for someone to "start" casting a spell is at least 3 to 5 seconds.

So the idea that a character sees the start of spell casting, and then gets a full round to react is odd.

I do it, the first spell casting attack is on round 1, and the surprised victims can't do anything, or react, until round 2 when inativate is rolled.

Though I do also just avoid this type of unfair surprise encounter too.

[Jon_Dahl]

Maybe, but it doesn't have to be so specific, or indeed actiony at all. It can just be moving in, or saying something, or acting all aggressive. And, to some extent, initiative is already doing something hostile. You say, "Roll initiative," and that means that means that the opponent wants to start something. If there's a more complex motivation, then that's established prior to the combat. Declaring initiative time is actually a really efficient and compressed way of delivering information that's rather complex. Said information being that the enemy combatants are clearly about to battle, and that the party knew that before the opponents started seriously acting, and that there's some existent hostility. It's a bit wonky as systems go, because the signal of hostility is necessarily a bit nebulous, but it's the system being worked with here, and trying to work around it this way is going to produce these sorts of problems.

My players will demand some description of the event, perceived hostility etc. that led to rolling initiative. If the situation is a complete sucker punch, like for instance a shapeshifter suddenly deciding to kill everyone after being a really nice guy, the first round PC actions might be skipped altogether if I can't give the PCs any solid reason for the initiative.

The solid reason is always the clear and obvious intent to do something Hostile™, and this something is what the enemy would do if (s)he/it comes first in the initiative order.

[Bronk]

A group of PCs are talking with a monster with formidable mêlée and spellcasting cababilities. The monster decides to cast a spell, but the action never happens because the attempt initiates combat. Everyone rolls initiatives and the monster acts last. The PCs act upon the information that the monster tries to cast a spell and make tactical decisions based on that information. When the monster's turn comes up, it hasn't acted yet: the PCs have been aware of it, so no surprise round has happened. It made a hostile act when it wanted to cast a spell, but the action was never initiated before the PCs had acted. Casting a spell is no longer a viable option so it decides to plow over the PCs using its raw fighting powers.

That's normal. Everyone was together, the monster made an obvious threatening action, and initiative was rolled. The monster should have been faster! In the future, a similar monster could have cast the immediate spell 'nerveskitter' to speed itself up for the initiative round, or used a silent and stilled spell, etc., so there would be no way to tell what it was about to do.



Furthermore, another scenario, very similar to the first one. I have actually made a thread about this one before, but here we go again:
An NPC wizard talks with PCs and suddenly decides to cast a spell in order to kill them. Combat is initiated. However, one of the PCs is hidden, so he gets a surprise round. He blasts the wizard with a spell, but the wizard's casting is not affected, since no action has been taken yet. The surprise round means the surprisers get an action, but no one else gets an action before or during that round. The wizard survives the attack, wins the initiative and kills most of the PCs with a massive spell that succeeds extraordinarily well.

Once initiative is rolled, it's too late for a surprise round. The hidden PC could have initiated one on their own, but they missed their chance.


My players will demand some description of the event, perceived hostility etc. that led to rolling initiative. If the situation is a complete sucker punch, like for instance a shapeshifter suddenly deciding to kill everyone after being a really nice guy, the first round PC actions might be skipped altogether if I can't give the PCs any solid reason for the initiative.

The solid reason is always the clear and obvious intent to do something Hostile™, and this something is what the enemy would do if (s)he/it comes first in the initiative order.

That's supposed to be the surprise round. Having the PCs skip an entire round of actions is way more than than one standard action.

If everyone's just standing around, and the bad guy's a shapeshifter, but suddenly he attacks everyone? While being watched? That's regular initiative, and he'd better hope he's rolls well!

[LTwerewolf]

He was already casting the spell, and unless it had a time of longer than 1 standard action or they had actions readied, he should have been able to finish his spell before initiative happened. He can't cast a spell, then have the players act, and then actually cast the spell, that means he wasn't casting the spell to begin with. Which means they didn't have any indication the fight was starting.

[ace rooster]

A group of PCs are talking with a monster with formidable mêlée and spellcasting cababilities. The monster decides to cast a spell, but the action never happens because the attempt initiates combat. Everyone rolls initiatives and the monster acts last. The PCs act upon the information that the monster tries to cast a spell and make tactical decisions based on that information. When the monster's turn comes up, it hasn't acted yet: the PCs have been aware of it, so no surprise round has happened. It made a hostile act when it wanted to cast a spell, but the action was never initiated before the PCs had acted. Casting a spell is no longer a viable option so it decides to plow over the PCs using its raw fighting powers.

The players complain that it had tried to cast a spell, so in the end it didn't.

Furthermore, another scenario, very similar to the first one. I have actually made a thread about this one before, but here we go again:
An NPC wizard talks with PCs and suddenly decides to cast a spell in order to kill them. Combat is initiated. However, one of the PCs is hidden, so he gets a surprise round. He blasts the wizard with a spell, but the wizard's casting is not affected, since no action has been taken yet. The surprise round means the surprisers get an action, but no one else gets an action before or during that round. The wizard survives the attack, wins the initiative and kills most of the PCs with a massive spell that succeeds extraordinarily well.

The problem is that you should not say "the monster tries to cast a spell". You should say "roll for initiative", or "roll sense motive" if the PCs would not have their guard up. The monster cannot cast a spell outside of combat, so you must be in combat mode before they can. Note that being in combat does not mean the you are trying to kill each other yet, just that both one side is about to start it. In particular this means that if the PCs win initiative and attack the target, they start the combat, which may have legality issues. "He was about to attack me" is not a great defense, but it is good enough to not be flatfooted or have buffed. :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

Though I do also just avoid this type of unfair surprise encounter too.

My players kind of like it when something like this happens. It marks the guy as a villain.
Try it - just don't do it all of the time :smallamused:

[eggynack]

My players will demand some description of the event, perceived hostility etc. that led to rolling initiative. If the situation is a complete sucker punch, like for instance a shapeshifter suddenly deciding to kill everyone after being a really nice guy, the first round PC actions might be skipped altogether if I can't give the PCs any solid reason for the initiative.

The solid reason is always the clear and obvious intent to do something Hostile™, and this something is what the enemy would do if (s)he/it comes first in the initiative order.
Some setup is fine, but this particular setup is simply incompatible with the way the game operates. With most spells, you don't start casting them and then actually do the cast after some other turns. It's all just one action. I think that what ya wanna do is just roll the initiative, and then figure out how things were initiated from there. If the bad guy goes first, then he initiated by casting his cool spell. If the good guys go first, then they were able to perceive some intent on the bad guy's part. As long as you're letting dice rolls shape this part of your game's reality, it doesn't make sense to try to imprint a narrative on top of then non-existent rolls. You can still have descriptions, but you shouldn't say, "The bad guy starts casting a spell," before you know he's going first, just as you shouldn't say, "My sword slices cleanly through the ogre's neck," before you even know you're going to hit. It's simply premature.

Worst of all, your plan puts you in a bit of a no win situation where initiative is concerned. Let's assume that the bad guy did go first, which is the only situation where your setup would make sense. In that case, what was the purpose of his posturing? He didn't need to prepare to cast his spell to start up initiative, because he was going first anyway, meaning that giving out the information that fighting is happening is pointless. The players would know why the fight is starting anyway, cause they get hit with the spell. The only place where the setup is relevant is in the one you set forth, where it has all those weird tactical ramifications and that vaguely paradoxical nature. Thus, in the best case the information is useless, and in the worst it's directly counterproductive.

[Dekion]

A round is six seconds, so I guess it's not unreasonable for the first words of an incantation to begin being uttered, and for the party to act, due to their quick reflexes (initiative rolls,) before the caster actually commits to the spell, unless the spell has no outward signs of being cast, still, silent, etc. Realistically, this is hard to justify, but we forsake realism regularly in this game. The caster is initiating combat without forewarning, so technically, it's a surprise. But, is it a "surprise round?" No, not by the rules...At least in the first instance. Both parties are aware of their opponents. This is one of those situations where it is up to the DM as the storyteller to make a decision. Is the spellcaster's spell going to be game-breaking for the party, or is it going to forward the tale being told, and just suck a bit, or is it completely harmless. At most, have initiative rolled and have your spellcaster go first in the combat round, after all, the DM stated that the spell was already being cast. At least, just roll initiative and let the dice fall where they may, and perhaps the actions that begin being taken alter the spellcaster's choices, because, by initiative, the spellcaster hasn't actually committed to the spell, and can actually do anything else on its action without losing that spell, except by the normal means. Make your choice and go, but understand that when similar situations occur, you should be mindful of that decision and try to be consistent. Remember, that's one of the reasons there is a DM, to try to make sense of situations like this for the good of all.

Now in the second situation, it all went mechanically per the rules. The wizard was not aware of one of the combatants at the start of combat, so that individual gets a surprise round. At that point, the wizard hasn't even technically committed to casting, the action that would have initiated combat. Although it's one of those realism issues, it's those wacky RAW. Even if it didn't save the party, there's not much I can say about that.

[Story]

In the first picture - did anyone have a readied action ? Apparently not: so the monster casts their spell and then initiatives are rolled - after all the spell may be harmless. The hidden character doesn't act until their initiative, when they still get to make a surprise attack. Now if the PC's had readied actions then these might trigger when the Monster casts it's sepll - depending upon the condition.


You can't ready actions outside of combat. Also, they should at least get a Spellcraft or Sense Motive check to see if the spell is harmless if you're going to do something like that. It makes more sense to just roll for initiative as soon as the monster decides to do something hostile though.

[Darth Ultron]

A round is six seconds, so I guess it's not unreasonable for the first words of an incantation to begin being uttered, and for the party to act, due to their quick reflexes (initiative rolls,) before the caster actually commits to the spell, unless the spell has no outward signs of being cast, still, silent, etc. Realistically, this is hard to justify, but we forsake realism regularly in this game. The caster is initiating combat without forewarning, so technically, it's a surprise. .

The thing is the game does not have any rules from going from casual role playing to combat roll playing.

Your average jerk player will say they should get like minutes to act as soon as any spell caster so much as blinks. While, of course, also saying that a Pc can ''somehow'' cast a spell without any NPC/monster/foe reacting at all.

And it takes a standard action to make an attack, say with a dagger. So if an NPC ''suddenly'' pulls out a dagger, then all the PC's can automatically roll initiative and react just like a spell right?

[Deophaun]

Regarding your second example, the hidden PC should not have gotten a bonus surprise round. He had his chance to imitate combat from the shadows, and he chose not to. There's no rewinding the clock on that when it's the NPC's turn.

The true surprise round is the round the NPC initiated combat. Other characters can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the NPC's Bluff check. You don't tell the players what the NPC is about to do, only that their spidey-sense is tingling that he's going hostile. Those who succeed may take a single action in the surprise round as normal. Smart players will ready their action for a hostile act (hopefully their characters have Spellcraft) instead of going all murder-hobo right out of the gate. Afterwards, you enter normal combat.

[Sacrieur]

Yes there is.

If the party isn't aware the monster is their opponent before he casts a spell (note: not DURING), then they can act in the surprise round. If everyone is aware, there is no surprise round.

So in the instance that no one is aware the monster is casting a spell before he does it, he gets to act in a surprise round. Note that the players can have a spellcraft check at this point if they want one. Also be aware that you can begin a full round action as a standard action, and complete it on another standard action on your next turn. So no matter how you look at it, your monster guy should have been able to cast his spell.

I'd also like to say that I wouldn't have given them an initiative roll until they suspected the monster was an enemy or was aware of his presence. Thus, they should have had a perception roll to detect his presence, or at the very least, detect the verbal or somatic components of a spell. Consider that a monster with a good enough stealth can follow the party around all day casting spells with still spell/silent spell and the players wouldn't get an initiative check. Even if the guy casts summon monster, it isn't until summon monster has finished casting that the surprise round begins.

[Jon_Dahl]

A round is six seconds, so I guess it's not unreasonable for the first words of an incantation to begin being uttered, and for the party to act, due to their quick reflexes (initiative rolls,) before the caster actually commits to the spell, unless the spell has no outward signs of being cast, still, silent, etc. Realistically, this is hard to justify, but we forsake realism regularly in this game. The caster is initiating combat without forewarning, so technically, it's a surprise. But, is it a "surprise round?" No, not by the rules...At least in the first instance. Both parties are aware of their opponents. This is one of those situations where it is up to the DM as the storyteller to make a decision. Is the spellcaster's spell going to be game-breaking for the party, or is it going to forward the tale being told, and just suck a bit, or is it completely harmless. At most, have initiative rolled and have your spellcaster go first in the combat round, after all, the DM stated that the spell was already being cast. At least, just roll initiative and let the dice fall where they may, and perhaps the actions that begin being taken alter the spellcaster's choices, because, by initiative, the spellcaster hasn't actually committed to the spell, and can actually do anything else on its action without losing that spell, except by the normal means. Make your choice and go, but understand that when similar situations occur, you should be mindful of that decision and try to be consistent. Remember, that's one of the reasons there is a DM, to try to make sense of situations like this for the good of all.

Now in the second situation, it all went mechanically per the rules. The wizard was not aware of one of the combatants at the start of combat, so that individual gets a surprise round. At that point, the wizard hasn't even technically committed to casting, the action that would have initiated combat. Although it's one of those realism issues, it's those wacky RAW. Even if it didn't save the party, there's not much I can say about that.

This. Just this. This is exactly how I interpret the rules and how I run my games - by the rules! I will save this text and read it to my players if they have any questions about initiative rules. Thank you!

[LTwerewolf]

A round takes 6 seconds. A spell that isn't a full round action doesn't take 6 seconds.

[Zanos]

Yeah, giving monsters free surprise rounds because the party decided to parley instead of immediately attack seems like it encourages bad behavior. Like, "anything that seems like it has any potential to be an enemy we immediately attack" behavior.

So no, people don't get free surprise rounds just because they decide to attack first. Initiative is how quickly you react to a situation, and the order of initiative should still be respected in this scenario.

For flavor, spells do take time to cast. Between beginning and ending, other people reacted more quickly than their opponent. That's all. You can of course decide to take a different action on your round. That isn't a big deal.

The second scenario plays out as described. If desired, the player could have readied an action to cast a spell to attempt to disrupt the enemy spellcasters spell.

[LTwerewolf]

If the creature had attacked with say a claw attack, would you allow them to interrupt that?

[Apricot]

Yeah, giving monsters free surprise rounds because the party decided to parley instead of immediately attack seems like it encourages bad behavior. Like, "anything that seems like it has any potential to be an enemy we immediately attack" behavior.

So no, people don't get free surprise rounds just because they decide to attack first. Initiative is how quickly you react to a situation, and the order of initiative should still be respected in this scenario.

For flavor, spells do take time to cast. Between beginning and ending, other people reacted more quickly than their opponent. That's all. You can of course decide to take a different action on your round. That isn't a big deal.

The second scenario plays out as described. If desired, the player could have readied an action to cast a spell to attempt to disrupt the enemy spellcasters spell.

That's ignoring the fundamental fact that you can catch people off-guard, and that you can defend against it.

So you have a character attempting to make some action to catch people off-guard. Obviously, they have an advantage against any action that takes the same amount of time: it would be silly if the NPC started combat by casting a spell, only to have a PC roll high on initiative and cast the exact same spell first. The necessary ruling to make that work would be to say that you can cast spells faster if you try to cast them faster, which is a hellhole that ends in no-metamagic Quickened spells. And because all standard actions are treated as taking the same amount of time, the person who moves first will get their standard action off first. So how is it possible to answer this constant threat? Easy: ready actions. Have your casters prepare counterspells, aim your ranged weapons at the target, and keep your melee weapons unsheathed. And realistically, this is how you should treat a potentially dangerous individual, until you have good reason to trust them. Problem solved: you don't have to always strike first or risk being overwhelmed. Just ready actions, and you get to roll initiative normally.

For reference, the way I'd rule it is that without any actions readied, the surprise round continues for one action, whether swift, movement, or standard, after the aggressor gives the first sign of their aggression. So a giant would get to rush at you before initiative gets rolled, or a turncoat barbarian would get a full attack off (because the first blow hitting is what betrays the intent). A hidden caster could land their first spell and then cast a quickened spell, attack, or run away, while a visible one would just cast that first spell (because in the first case, the round starts when the spell hits, and in the second, it starts when the spell starts being cast).

I think this is more reasonable than giving a character, PC or no, the ability to completely ignore the advantage of surprise attacks just because they rolled high. It doesn't make sense and it can lead to silly gameplay.

[Zanos]

That's ignoring the fundamental fact that you can catch people off-guard, and that you can defend against it.
Yes, it's called having higher or lower initiative. Or being undetected and getting a real surprise round.


So you have a character attempting to make some action to catch people off-guard. Obviously, they have an advantage against any action that takes the same amount of time: it would be silly if the NPC started combat by casting a spell, only to have a PC roll high on initiative and cast the exact same spell first. The necessary ruling to make that work would be to say that you can cast spells faster if you try to cast them faster, which is a hellhole that ends in no-metamagic Quickened spells.
You have invented a problem where there is none. Initiative literally represents how fast you are to react. The faster characters gets their spell off first. I see no problem.



Just ready actions, and you get to roll initiative normally.
Or you could roll initiative normally without slapping your players on the wrist for not all declaring that they're on alert every time they meet a new NPC.


I think this is more reasonable than giving a character, PC or no, the ability to completely ignore the advantage of surprise attacks just because they rolled high.
A character with high initiative doesn't get to ignore surprise rounds, but it does help them react to situations more quickly, which is exactly what this should be a check for. Have you never seen a western where the villain goes for their gun, and is shot dead because the hero was quicker on the draw?

[Jon_Dahl]

all declaring that they're on alert every time they meet a new NPC.

This would be an absolute nightmare.

[Apricot]

Yes, it's called having higher or lower initiative. Or being undetected and getting a real surprise round.


You have invented a problem where there is none. Initiative literally represents how fast you are to react. The faster characters gets their spell off first. I see no problem.


Or you could roll initiative normally without slapping your players on the wrist for not all declaring that they're on alert every time they meet a new NPC.


A character with high initiative doesn't get to ignore surprise rounds, but it does help them react to situations more quickly, which is exactly what this should be a check for. Have you never seen a western where the villain goes for their gun, and is shot dead because the hero was quicker on the draw?

Uhm... you keep talking about reacting, and don't spend a lot of time saying what people are reacting to.

But sure, let's try your Western example. Villain goes for their gun: Draw Weapon action completes without interruption, initiative is rolled. Hero rolls high, uses his movement action to draw his weapon, and attacks to kill the villain. Alternatively, the hero has the Quick Draw feat and makes a full attack, killing the villain deader. So my system works perfectly. Thanks for letting me confirm that!

Basically, what's so silly about your notion is that the potential for betrayal is something that we as humans regularly deal with. Mostly, it's handled by us being in public places and being able to reasonably expect the protection of third parties if anyone should make a wrong move. In the relatively few cases besides that, it's handled by us knowing and trusting the people we're with and having the reasonable expectation that they won't try and kill us. But when you remove both the societal and personal safeguards, the reasonable action is to be on alert. I'm reminded of a story that an old professor once told me, about what a Papua New Guinean tribesman said he'd do about meeting someone new. "Well, I'd ask if he was the family of anyone of anyone I knew... and if he wasn't, I'd kill him!" When players are dealing with new figures in dangerous situations who they have no knowledge about, they should be cautious. Caution doesn't translate to instant aggression, but it means they should definitely have to ready an action or two so that they can break Concentration checks and land a Hold Person or whatever. Your current version is basically saying that they are always on alert at all times and have every action possible prepared. That doesn't encourage them to not kill enemies, that encourages them to be sloppy and lazy because their actions have no consequences. And it breaks realism at other points, too: consider the perennial archer ambush, or the invisible-teleport-in-Blasphemy effect. By your example, they'd be able to take a full round of actions the second the first arrow hit, or react perfectly to the first audible utterance of the Blasphemy. Do you see why this is all so crazy, and why your desperate attempts to stop your players from killing things are just making the entire game a muddled playground?

[Story]

consider the perennial archer ambush, or the invisible-teleport-in-Blasphemy effect. By your example, they'd be able to take a full round of actions the second the first arrow hit, or react perfectly to the first audible utterance of the Blasphemy.

And what would the problem with that be?

If you don't run initiative normally, it just encourages players to attack everything in sight since the game is rocket tag and surprise rounds are a huge advantage.

Besides, it's not uncommon for action heroes to have a pseudo spider sense, and D&D should represent that.

[Deophaun]

Besides, it's not uncommon for action heroes to have a pseudo spider sense, and D&D should represent that.
It's actually more common for action heroes to be betrayed by a person they trust, who gets the drop on them and incapacitates the heroic bad-ass who would normally never have been incapacitated if it had been a straight-up fight.

Yes, if everyone is aware of their enemies, there is no surprise round. But, in this case, the party is unaware that they have an enemy at all. Only when the NPC acts does his identity as an enemy become apparent. Hence, surprise round. The problem of PCs killing NPCs as soon as they meet is solved through in-game consequences and the DM not pulling this stunt at every opportunity.

[Quertus]

If the creature had attacked with say a claw attack, would you allow them to interrupt that?


Have you never seen a western where the villain goes for their gun, and is shot dead because the hero was quicker on the draw?

Interrupting attacks is what held actions and attacks of opportunity were built for. And, IRL, I've interrupted claw attacks, presumably by making sense motive / animal handling / spot + winning init over the creature that decided to claw me, so why not allow it in the game?

Normally, just as attacking isn't just swinging a sword, but also drawing it, maneuvering for an opening, etc, casting a spell is retrieving components, lining up targets, etc. So, just as the villain going for his gun is what initiated combat, the monster going for its components could / would initiate combat. As such, the monster probably never actually "began casting" before the party got to go.

I hate to say it, but if you really want the monster starting to cast to be the event that initiates combat (per the invisible teleport scenario? Or some other reason the party would have no chance to notice the monster going aggro before it began casting), then 2e's weapon speeds and casting times actually work for that scenario. The monster begins on 1, and finishes its spell on the spell's casting time. Anyone in the party whose init allows them to go before that happens could attempt spellcraft, or could attack just because.

[Segev]

The rules on this are actually pretty cut-and-dried: the monster attempted to go hostile, and made some give-away, telling motion or action (even if it's just suddenly concentrating intently). Roll initiative. If the monster loses the initiative roll, then the PCs saw him metaphorically "go for his gun" and were quicker on the less-than-metaphorical draw. The monster isn't committed to his action, yet, though; he can abort it at any time before he takes the action on his turn.

If the monster uses some sort of bluff check to distract the players into letting their guard down for a round, then he can get a surprise round against anybody who fails to see through his bluff. It's risky, though, because anyone who DOES see through it is going to probably act immediately in that surprise round.

The monster could also ready an action, but that would mean he's pretty much clearly wary and ready to launch into combat at a moment's notice.

This is also what I'd expect the "hidden PC" to be doing: he's keeping a readied action to attack as soon as the monster "tries something." He gets, therefore, to act right BEFORE the triggered action, as per Readied Action rules, and can interrupt it no matter what the monster's initiative.

A wary party dropping into Readied Actions to attack the monster at the first sign of hostility is perfectly reasonable. It is not friendly, but it's clearly not attacking just yet. Parleying from that position is a healthy way to ensure that the monster can't get a drop on them. The monster can behave similarly, if its intelligent. This makes being the first to break the truce during the parley a bad idea; you cede first-action to the other side. Which is also rather realistic, since it creates the "Mexican Stand Off" that we expect in those kinds of tense negotiations.

[Jon_Dahl]

And, IRL, I've interrupted claw attacks

Man I hate jealous women.

[Bronk]

This would be an absolute nightmare.

Seems pretty normal to me.

I'd just say, Segev is right.

For reference, here's the rules for initiative from the SRD:


INITIATIVE
Initiative Checks: At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions). If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Inaction: Even if you can’t take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter.

SURPRISE

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Just follow that. If you don't, your players would be totally justified to be a bit peeved.

From your OPs first example, remember that casting a spell usually involves waving your hands around and speaking in a 'strong' voice, which is absolutely noticeable. In the future, you can get around this by either using psionics, stilled and silent spells, or some kind of ad hoc bluff check to try to convince everyone he's about to cast a harmless spell. Otherwise, prepare to have your monster attacked, even if it looks like a kindly old nun. Adventurer's know that it might very well be a succubus in disguise!

From your second example, it's too late to start a surprise round if initiative is already going.

[Darth Ultron]

The rules on this are actually pretty cut-and-dried: the monster attempted to go hostile, and made some give-away, telling motion or action (even if it's just suddenly concentrating intently). Roll initiative. If the monster loses the initiative roll, then the PCs saw him metaphorically "go for his gun" and were quicker on the less-than-metaphorical draw. The monster isn't committed to his action, yet, though; he can abort it at any time before he takes the action on his turn.


If you use this wacky house rule I'd wonder if :

1.Can everyone ''aware'' of another get the ability to slow down time and take a counter action when they see the other take any action?

2.Can the ''aware'' person look into the future to know the action the other will take after just seeing some type of tell like an eye blink or hand movement?

3.Is everyone in an area automatically aware of every single tiny movement and detail of every single other person in the area? If a Pc is say at a dinner table, are they intensely and carefully watching all of the other ten NPC's at the table?

4.And most of all, does this house rule apply to the Pc's as well? When a Pc does the ''talk to the king and then do the sneaky attack'', does every single NPC guard in the room automatically see, know and be aware of the future attack and get the initiative roll to react and take action?

[Segev]

If you use this wacky house rule I'd wonder if :What house rule? It's how initiative works.


1.Can everyone ''aware'' of another get the ability to slow down time and take a counter action when they see the other take any action?

2.Can the ''aware'' person look into the future to know the action the other will take after just seeing some type of tell like an eye blink or hand movement?

3.Is everyone in an area automatically aware of every single tiny movement and detail of every single other person in the area? If a Pc is say at a dinner table, are they intensely and carefully watching all of the other ten NPC's at the table?

4.And most of all, does this house rule apply to the Pc's as well? When a Pc does the ''talk to the king and then do the sneaky attack'', does every single NPC guard in the room automatically see, know and be aware of the future attack and get the initiative roll to react and take action?You're over-complicating this. You are automatically "aware" - for purposes of this discussion - of anybody who is not hidden from you and is present. This could be resolved, if there's a question, by a perception check to notice them. There are oft-forgotten rules for perception checks becoming harder with greater distance, if it matters.

Now that we've gotten that fiddly bit out of the way, if anybody of whom you are aware initiates combat by taking a hostile action, you may roll initiative with them. If anybody is NOT aware of the initiating character's choice to begin combat, then there exists a surprise round wherein such people are not going to get to roll initiative.

The rules don't go into the nitty-gritty of WHAT you do that constitutes a cue that you're going to do something hostile. If you try to perform a hostile action, it is assumed you give away SOMETHING unless you make explicit effort not to (which would probably be best handled by a Bluff check, or a Stealth or Sleight of Hand check depending on the action). Successful execution of your skill check to hide your hostile action until it is over would grant you a surprise round in which to perform it.

And yes, if you can "look into the future" (see: foresight), you can avoid being caught by surprise and/or flat-footed and always act in the surprise round.

It really isn't that complicated. The RAW already cover this pretty cleanly.

[Darth Ultron]

What house rule? It's how initiative works.

It really isn't that complicated. The RAW already cover this pretty cleanly.

Sadly the rules do not cover moving from role playing to roll playing at all. There is no rules on when combat starts or even a definition of combat.

Now, your house ruled definition of combat is ''anything you want it to be, as long as it is advantageous to you'', and that is great.

Does a person have to agree to be in combat? Is it automatic? Can one person be in combat, and another not be in combat? Is, for example, a character that is running away from a foe ''in combat''? See ''running away from a fight'' is not exactly the definition of ''combat''. Or are you just house ruling the word combat to be ''any actions''.

Take just the simple two characters(both 1st level), Adom and Zod at a table. They have no overt reason to be hostile to each other and are just eating. Then Zod goes to stab with a dagger. So....when does combat start?

Your house rule says Adom is instantly and automatically aware of any and all remotely hostile actions Zod might take in any way shape or from (by, somehow seeing into the future and no, he is not using the Foresight spell). And the split, non-second, that Adom sees the future tell of the attack that has not happened yet, he knows what will happen and gets a chance to react.

See your house rule is more like the old western draw. You have two hostile opponents facing each other and attempting to kill the other faster. And that makes no sense if it is not a duel.

I guess you could use bluff vs perception/sense motive if you really, really wanted to add more dice rolling to the game. Though this would also be the unfair way to do it as ''sneaky types'' would always win, and everyone else would loose''. It is much more fair to just say ''the person who acts first to start combat gets a free action, above and beyond the official combat rules, as official combat does not start until round 1 when initiative is rolled.

[Zanos]

This would be an absolute nightmare.


-stuff-
Adventurers are not normal people. The live lives that are entirely unlike ours, are as likely to have a door open as to transform into a tentacle demon. Declaring that they're constantly ready so they get to roll initiative normally is stupid. Either they always are, in which case this entire house-rule is worthless, or they forget to say it, in which case you're just playing mother may I with your players in an extremely annoying way. Especially in a game like D&D where a bonus standard action at the start of the encounter can make the entire thing a nightmare.

If you give your enemy that is standing right in front of the players a surprise round because they "didn't expect it", you are a bad DM.

[LTwerewolf]

Deciding when you're actually on edge should be an important factor. When you do so, it should sometimes get you out of scrapes it wouldn't have. If you're always ready, it should cause problems too. NPC senses motive and reads hostile intent. This npc is no longer forthcoming with information. That's a great way in real life and in the game to ensure fights happen that don't need to.

[Zombimode]

Your house rule says Adom is instantly and automatically aware of any and all remotely hostile actions Zod might take in any way shape or from (by, somehow seeing into the future and no, he is not using the Foresight spell).

Except that is not what Segev said. He said: IF Adom is aware of a possible hostile action against Zod, THEN initiative gets rolled BEFORE Zod gets stabbed.

[Segev]

Sadly the rules do not cover moving from role playing to roll playing at all. There is no rules on when combat starts or even a definition of combat. Uh, no. If you're making an attack roll or forcing a saving throw, it's initiative time. Them's the rules. Your claiming otherwise doesn't make it so.


Now, your house ruled definition of combat is ''anything you want it to be, as long as it is advantageous to you'', and that is great.Again, no. The RAW state that combat is any hostile action the other guy might want to react to in a fashion which requires you to determine initiative order. Initiative is rolled at that point. It's not a house rule.

It seems that your argument is that there is no way for combat to ever start per the rules, that starting combat is always a house rule. That seems a silly position to take. If it is not what you are saying, could you please explain what you are saying?


Does a person have to agree to be in combat? Is it automatic? Can one person be in combat, and another not be in combat? Is, for example, a character that is running away from a foe ''in combat''? See ''running away from a fight'' is not exactly the definition of ''combat''. Or are you just house ruling the word combat to be ''any actions''.You're in combat if initiative matters. Initiative matters if you need to determine the order of actions and the involved characters cannot or will not agree to have one person wait on the other.


Take just the simple two characters(both 1st level), Adom and Zod at a table. They have no overt reason to be hostile to each other and are just eating. Then Zod goes to stab with a dagger. So....when does combat start? Per the rules, the moment Zod attempts to stab Adom. He has initiated combat. Unless he has somehow managed to do so with surprise, both roll initiative. The base assumption is that Zod's swing with the knife is not sudden enough that Adom cannot possibly react to it, but that Adom has a chance to react first. That's what the initiative roll represents. If Adom cannot know of the strike until it has hit, then it must have been done from stealth or in some other way prevented Adom from being aware of it before it's already bitten into his flesh.

What you seem to be going for is the implication that Zod's action is so sudden that Adom has no time to react. That is, again, handled by the initiative rules. If Zod's initiative is higher, Adom is flat footed because he didn't get to act yet in that combat. That's how Zod's surprise advantage is represented. If Zod managed to distract Adom or to hide his action (which would require some sort of ability or skill roll, perhaps Bluff or Stealth) such that Adom was unaware the knife was coming until it had already hit, Zod gets a surprise round. Adom rolls initiative for the next one and is flat-footed in the surprise one.

Again, this isn't house ruling. This is all in the RAW.


Your house rule says Adom is instantly and automatically aware of any and all remotely hostile actions Zod might take in any way shape or from (by, somehow seeing into the future and no, he is not using the Foresight spell). And the split, non-second, that Adom sees the future tell of the attack that has not happened yet, he knows what will happen and gets a chance to react.This is a silly way to look at it.

The RAW state that Zod's action triggers an initiative roll to see if Zod or Adom is faster. Or are you claiming that Zod is literally so fast that Adom cannot see him moving at all? He doesn't see Zod go from calmly eating to suddenly tensing up, grabbing the knife, and moving rapidly towards him? That's why Adom gets an intiative roll: there is time between Zod's initiation of hostilities and the blow landing, and we're seeing if Adom can do anything before the knife strikes him.

It's cute how you keep saying "your house rule." It's less cute when you deliberately ignore what is happening in your own scenario to invent straw men about seeing into the future.


See your house rule is more like the old western draw. You have two hostile opponents facing each other and attempting to kill the other faster. And that makes no sense if it is not a duel. It makes perfect sense unless the aggressor is so fast that the target(s) literally can't see it coming until it's already hit them.

It's also in the RAW. You can claim it's unrealistic if people aren't tensed and ready to fight, but the RAW don't make a distinction. They assume that's always the case by default. It takes skill checks or other powers to render it not so. Anything that interrupts initiative order is fast enough: if Zod had an immediate action with which to stab, that would work.


I guess you could use bluff vs perception/sense motive if you really, really wanted to add more dice rolling to the game. Though this would also be the unfair way to do it as ''sneaky types'' would always win, and everyone else would loose''. It is much more fair to just say ''the person who acts first to start combat gets a free action, above and beyond the official combat rules, as official combat does not start until round 1 when initiative is rolled.That latter would be a house rule. The fair way to do it is to follow the RAW: if you don't have a surprise round due to stealth or other things keeping people from being aware of your aggression, the person with the highest initiative acts first once hostilities break out.

If you want a house rule to represent the person acting first having an advantage, give him a bonus to the initiative roll. D&D recommends a +2 circumstance bonus for situations like this, where you think circumstances favor somebody for some reason.

[Anlashok]

You have invented a problem where there is none. Initiative literally represents how fast you are to react. The faster characters gets their spell off first. I see no problem.

The problem actually seems like a pretty obvious one: Initiative represents how fact you are reacting, but the PCs never react to anything because the thing they're reacting to retroactively never happened in the first place.

Again: Caster hurls a fireball at the PCs, the PCs win initiative and kill the spellcaster, which means the spellcaster never gets a turn which means he never casts a spell in the first place. How does combat start?

While the argument "get him while he's going for his gun" sort of works if you strain yourself for regular spells. It starts to make a lot less sense when you're talking about, say, swift action spells or immediate action spells or contingent spells. So I'm not really sure that's a compelling argument either.



Uh, no. If you're making an attack roll or forcing a saving throw, it's initiative time. Them's the rules. Your claiming otherwise doesn't make it so.

So does that mean spells that don't allow a saving throw or require an attack roll go off before initiative?

[Jon_Dahl]

The idea of "what is combat" is rather moot, because only the DM knows what is combat at any given moment and that is enough. There is no DM on earth that asks to roll initiative if an NPC is NOT going to attack, attacking or hasn't just attacked. The DM can ask what the PC is doing or planning to do and can call for an initiative. Of course the PC actions can be hard to understand sometimes, but it's never a problem. Sometimes things like a friendly wrestling match with no purpose can be unclear: is initiative needed?

[Segev]

So does that mean spells that don't allow a saving throw or require an attack roll go off before initiative?

Probably not. I was being over-specific. Basically, if you're doing something that somebody else would like to act before you do it, and your action is not hidden from them, it's probably initiative time.

[nedz]

There is no DM on earth that asks to roll initiative if an NPC is NOT going to attack, attacking or hasn't just attacked.

I have done this, though not frequently. Sometimes initiative makes sense in a non combat situation.

[Grand Poobah]

Scenario 1: PCs at a meeting with the local big wig. A servant in attendance move towards the big wig with the intention to assassinate the big wig. I'd allow spot checks, sense motive etc for the PCs to notice something is suspicious before the servant gets a surprise action and kills the big wig i.e they spot him pulling a dagger from his sleeve or suddenly tense up. PCs making the check get to act in the surprise round too.

Scenario 2: The PCs are exploring a ruin rumoured to have a way down to secret temple below when they stumble on a group of armed men camping. Everyone is aware of each other and both sides are wary of each other. After a brief conversation one of the PCs decides to cast Detect Evil, which the DM says means initiative rolls for all with the PC casting the spell getting a +2 circumstance bonus as he's initiating the act. Miraculously, the guards all roll higher than the PCs, perhaps they saw the PC take a component from his pouch or formed his fingers into a somantic pose, and all bar one bowman move to attack. The PC who stated he was going to cast Detect Evil can still do so if he wishes to but as the spell isn't a benefit he decides Bless would be better. However, the bowman had a held action to attack anybody casting a spell and gets a shot off interrupting the caster.

In both situations each side is aware of each other but not of each others intentions. The first scenario the servant has taken steps to hide his intentions and nobody is on their guard so only the eagle eyed or observant can hope to stop him before the big wig is killed. In the second both sides are wary of each other and on edge. The PC who wanted to cast Detect Evil is only initiating combat and isn't committed to a course of action until the initiative order says it is his go. That's how I handle these types of transition from role play to roll play at least.

Lastly, people have mentioned readying actions prior to any initiative being rolled. Readying is a combat action and can't be done outside of combat I.e. initiative needs to have been rolled before you can declare Readying an action.

[Apricot]

Let's be clear on what a surprise round is. RAW, it's worded extremely loosely and in a generally unhelpful fashion: that some individuals are aware and others aren't. It states that the awareness is of one another, which is completely awful if you assume it to mean "aware of existence/presence" and not "aware of intent." Example: you are a dinner guest of a local lord. You're eating, and the maids are serving you. You can hear them walking around behind you, so their location is very easy to discern. Suddenly, one of them plunges a knife into your back. Are you supposed to get completely freedom to roll initiative against someone you can't see and who you have no reason to suspect (well, maybe you do, in which case you'd ready an action as per my system)? No. They get a free surprise round, in which they can stab away. You can construct similar examples with gargoyles that you still think are statues, although nobody ever falls for that one. Thus, we can see that simple awareness of presence is insufficient to give you the right to roll initiative, and that the only way to escape absurdity is for it to be awareness of hostile intent. As far as that's concerned, suspicion of hostile intent can accelerate the recognition of it massively, which is why my system of readying actions works.

And briefly, on the subject of players killing everything: it's honestly a DM problem and not a player problem if you keep putting the players in situations where they accurately recognize that there's a very high potential for danger. Cut down on the lonely dungeon encounters, and allow for more interaction in "neutral zones" where both parties can expect to be protected if something goes wrong. It's like how people in the good old days used to negotiate in churches or whatever. An added benefit of that style is that the PCs can expect that if they act crazy, they're going to experience harsh retribution. Good times had by all.

Oh, and another way that this can be handled in terms of mechanics is initiative bonuses/penalties. It's noted above, and it can help settling things. I personally dislike it, because the die roll tends to overwhelm initiative bonuses by such a massive margin. Adding more randomness to the game isn't always a boon.

[Zanos]

They would get a spot/listen check, and everything would proceed as per RAW.

[Apricot]

Yeah, and you're still aware of them and their location regardless, which means by your version of RAW that they don't get a surprise round.

[Segev]

I don't think I've ever had a DM who had issue with saying, "Make a spot check. Those who succeed: that servant just pulled a knife and is about to stab the prince. Roll initiative."

If nobody makes the spot check, then the assassin-disguised-as-a-servant gets a free surprise round.

It's not magical foresight; it's seeing the servant pulling out the weapon and making a motion to attack with it. Yes, the game assumes PCs are good enough at combat to read the intent behind the action.

[eggynack]

The problem actually seems like a pretty obvious one: Initiative represents how fact you are reacting, but the PCs never react to anything because the thing they're reacting to retroactively never happened in the first place.

Again: Caster hurls a fireball at the PCs, the PCs win initiative and kill the spellcaster, which means the spellcaster never gets a turn which means he never casts a spell in the first place. How does combat start?

While the argument "get him while he's going for his gun" sort of works if you strain yourself for regular spells. It starts to make a lot less sense when you're talking about, say, swift action spells or immediate action spells or contingent spells. So I'm not really sure that's a compelling argument either.

That's why the OP was wrong in how they set this up. The caster hurling a fireball should never be the initiation of combat, because doing it that way makes no sense. This isn't a problem with the initiative rules, but rather a problem with this weird scenario where retroactive interaction is possible.

[LTwerewolf]

I think they're making it more difficult on themselves simply because it's a spell. Were it not a spell, and was something like a standard attack, no one would bat an eye at it happening. A standard action spell and a standard action attack take the same amount of time. I would rule the spell goes off, but since everyone was aware of each other there would be time for attacks of opportunity and no one being flatfooted.

[Fyxsius]

Yeah, I'd agree that the initial spell would definitely go off as a surprise round. It just seems silly that it wouldn't get the advantage in this situation.

[ComaVision]

I think how I'd probably deal with a sucker punch scenario in my game is:

1) Sense Motive, failure means a -4 penalty to initiative (or maybe a Sleight of Hand vs Spot in the case of pulling a knife)
2) Roll initiative as normal

That way, there is a possible benefit to trying to sucker punch someone but it's not guaranteed (because the players are heroes etc). This way also allows an NPC or PC to be good at sucker punching if that's something they want to do.