How Does Multi-Classing Spell Lists Work?

[Aeradom]

So I'm a little confused after looking over the player's handbook how spell lists work when multiclassing. For instance, I'm a Level 3 Bard/Level 8 Sorcerer and I know from the multiclassing table what my spells slots are, but what I don't get is when starting a new character (was at level 8 when I first made the character) is what are my options. For instance, I know from the spell slot table on Bard, it says at level 3 I can cast up to a level 2 spell. Does this mean that despite my character being able to cast higher level spells, I'm capped on on what spells I can choose?

[CantigThimble]

You have interpreted the book correctly. When picking spells known you look at each class individually. If you have slots of a higher level than your spells known then you can only use those slots to cast spells of lower levels (usually with increased effect).

Also, even if you create a character at a level above first you need to pick their spells based on their level progression. So if you start as a bard 3 you need to pick the 4 first level spells you know at level 1, one more first level spell for character level 2, then you can learn one second level spell and swap a spell you already know for another second level spell known. So at level 3 only 2 of your 6 spells known can be 2nd level.

[Aeradom]

You have interpreted the book correctly. When picking spells known you look at each class individually. If you have slots of a higher level than your spells known then you can only use those slots to cast spells of lower levels (usually with increased effect).

Also, even if you create a character at a level above first you need to pick their spells based on their level progression. So if you start as a bard 3 you need to pick the 4 first level spells you know at level 1, one more first level spell for character level 2, then you can learn one second level spell and swap a spell you already know for another second level spell known. So at level 3 only 2 of your 6 spells known can be 2nd level.

Ah! This makes sense, since I saw someone talking about not being able to pick up ninth level spells if you mutliclass too deep into a class then. Which I was confused about because on that mutliclass list, it seemed like I'd be able to cast spells of that level. Hmm, I'll need to look at my character more closely and determine what levels I want to put into each and how far I want to take it.

[Clistenes]

There should be a way for multiclassed characters to be able to learn spells of the highest level they can cast. Maybe a feat that allows you to learn spells as if you were four class level higher (but never higher that your total character level)?.

[Flashy]

There should be a way for multiclassed characters to be able to learn spells of the highest level they can cast. Maybe a feat that allows you to learn spells as if you were four class level higher (but never higher that your total character level)?.

I'm really dubious about this. What's the penalty for multiclassing out of a full caster if you can just feat your entire spell progression back in? You'd wind up with terrifying builds like Cleric 12/Druid 8 where you can cherry pick the most powerful features from two classes without sacrificing spell progression simply by making sure they share a spellcasting modifier. High level spells need to be one of the things that full casters sacrifice for substantial multiclassing, or it starts to become mechanically inferior to play as a single classed character.

[Clistenes]

I'm really dubious about this. What's the penalty for multiclassing out of a full caster if you can just feat your entire spell progression back in? You'd wind up with terrifying builds like Cleric 12/Druid 8 where you can cherry pick the most powerful features from two classes without sacrificing spell progression simply by making sure they share a spellcasting modifier. High level spells need to be one of the things that full casters sacrifice for substantial multiclassing, or it starts to become mechanically inferior to play as a single classed character.

That Cleric 12/Druid 8 would still have lost access to the most powerful class features of both classes, and an ASI. And if it applies the feat to its Cleric spellcasting, it would still be unable to cast 9th level cleric spells in exchange for getting Druid spells up to level 4th.

And the Cleric/Druid is one of the most powerful builds. A Fighter/Wizard or a Rogue/Sorcerer would have to spread its ability scores thinner.

[Corran]

There should be a way for multiclassed characters to be able to learn spells of the highest level they can cast. Maybe a feat that allows you to learn spells as if you were four class level higher (but never higher that your total character level)?.


I'm really dubious about this. What's the penalty for multiclassing out of a full caster if you can just feat your entire spell progression back in? You'd wind up with terrifying builds like Cleric 12/Druid 8 where you can cherry pick the most powerful features from two classes without sacrificing spell progression simply by making sure they share a spellcasting modifier. High level spells need to be one of the things that full casters sacrifice for substantial multiclassing, or it starts to become mechanically inferior to play as a single classed character.
Agree with Flashy on this one. Plus having higher level slots than the level of your known spells, is a good way to upcast any known spells. And trying to figure which spells fit the bill in that respect, is a very fun exercise, and sometimes it can lead to some very interesting, if not optimal, combinations and strategies.

[CantigThimble]

That Cleric 12/Druid 8 would still have lost access to the most powerful class features of both classes, and an ASI. And if it applies the feat to its Cleric spellcasting, it would still be unable to cast 9th level cleric spells in exchange for getting Druid spells up to level 4th.

And the Cleric/Druid is one of the most powerful builds. A Fighter/Wizard or a Rogue/Sorcerer would have to spread its ability scores thinner.

I don't understand what you mean here, if they spent all five ASIs on that feat then they could prepare spells as a 20th level character in both classes. Meanwhile a fighter/wizard or rogue/sorcerer won't have 9th level spell slots at all unless they had 17 levels in the casting class.

[SharkForce]

caster multiclassing is in a pretty good place right now i feel. it's something you can consider, there is some temptation to do it to pick up abilities to fit your concept, but it's not a must-have. which is right about where it should be.

[JackPhoenix]

I don't understand what you mean here, if they spent all five ASIs on that feat then they could prepare spells as a 20th level character in both classes. Meanwhile a fighter/wizard or rogue/sorcerer won't have 9th level spell slots at all unless they had 17 levels in the casting class.

Sure...and your ability scores would be that much lower (17 tops), you'll miss out on things like Resilient (con), Warcaster or whatever other feat you want, and while you could've double the spells prepared, you will still have only one 9th level slot...you will sacrifice raw power for versatility (also lose unlimited wild shape, no-fail divine intervention, and other class-based goodies). IMO, a fair exchange.

[CantigThimble]

Sure...and your ability scores would be that much lower (17 tops), you'll miss out on things like Resilient (con), Warcaster or whatever other feat you want, and while you could've double the spells prepared, you will still have only one 9th level slot...you will sacrifice raw power for versatility (also lose unlimited wild shape, no-fail divine intervention, and other class-based goodies). IMO, a fair exchange.

Yeah, I understand there would be tradeoffs I just don't understand the tradeoffs he was talking about in that post.

[CNagy]

Yeah, I understand there would be tradeoffs I just don't understand the tradeoffs he was talking about in that post.

The only way I can make sense of it is to assume he was talking about Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters. A 9/4 EK/Evoker would have 4th level slots and 2nd level Wizard spells. The feat, I assume, would let the character choose spells as a higher level Wizard depending on available slots. So when 9/4 becomes 9/5, instead of picking a 3rd level spell, he could pick a 3rd or 4th level spell. Adding 4 levels would make his functional Wizard level 9, but because he only has 4th level spell slots, he is limited to 4th level spells instead of 5th.

I'm split on the need for this. On the one hand, loss of higher level spells is a huge disadvantage. On the other hand, you probably shouldn't be multiclassing if you are a primary spellcaster for the party. On the other other hand, I don't like anything that hints of reviving the Mystic Theurge. Going to have to say this disadvantage should probably stay a disadvantage.

[Clistenes]

I don't understand what you mean here, if they spent all five ASIs on that feat then they could prepare spells as a 20th level character in both classes.

Who said the character could take the feat more than once?

I was speaking of a feat that allows you to learn spells as if you were four levels higher in one of your classes and can't be taken more than once. Hence, the Cleric 12 / Druid 8 would know the same spells as a Cleric 16 (up to level 8) and a Druid 8 (up to level 4).

Even if the character can take the feat once for each class, it will be able to learn spells like a Cleric 16 (up to level 8) and as a Druid 12 (up to level 6), but in exchange, it will be 4 ability score points lower than anybody else.


Meanwhile a fighter/wizard or rogue/sorcerer won't have 9th level spell slots at all unless they had 17 levels in the casting class.

What I meant is that the Wizard/Fighter build is less attractive because it has to spread its ASI thinner, the Cleric/Druid can put all its ASI into WIS, but the Wizard/Fighter needs to spread its ability score points among more abilities.

And while the Cleric/Druid has full spell slot progression, the Fighter/Wizard has an spellcasting level of its Wizard lvl + one fourth its Fighter lvl.

All that makes the Fighter/Wizard more difficult to optimize, it needs its ASI more, and probably needs Combat Casting, and the feat wouldn't make them as powerful as it would a Druid/Cleric.

[CantigThimble]

I assumed you would be able to take it more than once based on this:


There should be a way for multiclassed characters to be able to learn spells of the highest level they can cast. Maybe a feat that allows you to learn spells as if you were four class level higher (but never higher that your total character level)?.

If you can only take it once then you probably won't be able to cast spells for the highest level you have slots.

I'm not judging its power level, I was just unsure why you were saying a character could use their highest level slots in one post then saying that exact functionality wouldn't work for a Cleric/Druid.

[Clistenes]

I assumed you would be able to take it more than once based on this:



If you can only take it once then you probably won't be able to cast spells for the highest level you have slots.

I'm not judging its power level, I was just unsure why you were saying a character could use their highest level slots in one post then saying that exact functionality wouldn't work for a Cleric/Druid.

It would allow, say a Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14 to cast 9th lvl Sorcerer spells.

I mentioned the Cleric 12/Druid 8 only because it was the example another poster mentioned as a build that would become overpowered thanks to that feat, and I said that it wouldn't be that overpowered.

[georgie_leech]

It is noticeably powerful though. That Sorcerer/Paladin still has 9th level spells and a bulk of their sorcery points. A Cleric 12/Druid 8 may not reach 9th level spells, but a Cleric 13/Druid 7 does, and still gets you the 4th level druid spells you were aiming at. 8th level animal forms without beast spells aren't relevant at those levels. Further, at lower levels it results in almost comical disparities. Compare a Druid3/Cleric leveling up to Druid 4 to take the feat (planning on the the 13 levels in Cleric) with an actual Cleric 5. Our multiclass character has slots of a 5th level character but casts both as a Druid 4 and a Cleric 5, and the spells a primary caster class has are far more important than their features; they cast just as well as our character that focused entirely on being a Cleric. All in all, such a feat would represent pure power creep and removes one of the most meaningful trades for multiclassing as a caster.

[Clistenes]

It is noticeably powerful though. That Sorcerer/Paladin still has 9th level spells and a bulk of their sorcery points. A Cleric 12/Druid 8 may not reach 9th level spells, but a Cleric 13/Druid 7 does, and still gets you the 4th level druid spells you were aiming at. 8th level animal forms without beast spells aren't relevant at those levels. Further, at lower levels it results in almost comical disparities. Compare a Druid3/Cleric leveling up to Druid 4 to take the feat (planning on the the 13 levels in Cleric) with an actual Cleric 5. Our multiclass character has slots of a 5th level character but casts both as a Druid 4 and a Cleric 5, and the spells a primary caster class has are far more important than their features; they cast just as well as our character that focused entirely on being a Cleric. All in all, such a feat would represent pure power creep and removes one of the most meaningful trades for multiclassing as a caster.

There could be minimum character level requirement. Say you can't take the feat unless you have at least 10 class levels, and at least 4 of them belonging to your secondary class.

[MrStabby]

I think these options are a bit too powerful but at the moment I do think that the penalties for multiclassing as a caster are in general a bit too steep. Something to take the edge off would be ok.

[Citan]

Agree with Flashy on this one. Plus having higher level slots than the level of your known spells, is a good way to upcast any known spells. And trying to figure which spells fit the bill in that respect, is a very fun exercise, and sometimes it can lead to some very interesting, if not optimal, combinations and strategies.

caster multiclassing is in a pretty good place right now i feel. it's something you can consider, there is some temptation to do it to pick up abilities to fit your concept, but it's not a must-have. which is right about where it should be.

Agree on this.
If I had to propose a trade-off for a multiclass character in order to allow him/her to learn a higher level spell, it would be along the lines of this.
- sacrifice any combination of spell known (for wizard/sorcerer/warlock) or spell slot (classes with all known, only prepared) in order to learn a higher lvl spell. When dubious multiclass, either stick one side or mix.

Example (easier ^^):
Paladin 6 / Sorcerer 14 (*wink*), caster lvl 17, so at least 1 slot for 9nth spells.
Sacrifice one known lvl 4 spell and one lvl5 spell, or sacrifice one lvl4 slot and one lvl5 slot, in order to learn one lvl9 spell.

Reasoning/justification behind: your character craved so much to learn this particular spell that he went to the point of neglecting the usual training/learning.

It's absolutely not something that could be generalized though (nor would it be applicable to any build. As I said, it's more of a general idea than something really thought out ;)).
And it's nearly as harsh (but in a different way) as the current system because, well, I'm among those that find the current system well-balanced and interesting (and I'm a multiclass lover). ;)

[MarkTriumphant]

I don't understand what you mean here, if they spent all five ASIs on that feat then they could prepare spells as a 20th level character in both classes. Meanwhile a fighter/wizard or rogue/sorcerer won't have 9th level spell slots at all unless they had 17 levels in the casting class.

Normally feats can only be taken once, unless the feat says otherwise. Therefore, don't allow multiple uses.

[Nu]

That Cleric 12/Druid 8 would still have lost access to the most powerful class features of both classes, and an ASI. And if it applies the feat to its Cleric spellcasting, it would still be unable to cast 9th level cleric spells in exchange for getting Druid spells up to level 4th.

Generally, the most powerful "class features" of full casters are "access to high-level spells". I wouldn't be so quick to give that option out via feat or otherwise.

[Sir cryosin]

Generally, the most powerful "class features" of full casters are "access to high-level spells". I wouldn't be so quick to give that option out via feat or otherwise.

I agree muticlass and giving up your 9th level spells know is a fair trade of .