Player victories and recurring villains

[Snappy]

I'm fairly new to DMing, and my buddy who would normally help me with this is unavailable, so I'd like some advice.

I recently read an article about antipaladins from an old Dragon magazine, and really liked the idea. I was planning on introducing one around 5th level, then letting her and the PCs clash over the course of the adventure. I don't want to make it stale, though, so around 10th level, I was thinking of letting the players use an artifact (borrowed from a powerful organization, so they have to give it back) to permanently sever the antipally's connection to her god, crippling her powers and giving the players the upper hand.

My question is, would it undermine their victory if she manages to escape? I feel it's what a real villain would do when outmatched, but I want my players to feel like they did something meaningful. Most of my players like recurring characters (I'm especially fond of villains), and I feel like more could be done with her, especially if she finds a new, more vile dark power to serve. I'd also like to throw in a new threat to mix up the campaign while she's away.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[KillianHawkeye]

IMO, the best thing if she escapes would be to later show up still lacking the divine power and appearing to be much weaker. Seeing her in this weakened state will reinforce the PCs' previous victory, but then... Surprise! Her new awesomely evil allies show up! Try to come up with something weird and different from the tone of the prior encounters with this character, showing that her desperation for revenge or power or whatever has pushed her onto an even darker or crazier path.

Basically, character growth FTW.


EDIT: Almost forgot, don't misuse your DM powers to let the character escape. That's a No-No. If she escapes, that's great, but let the players have a chance of stopping her if that's what they want to try to do. Don't railroad it just because you have a cool idea for the next encounter with her.

[nedz]

Most characters should have a get-out - that is a way of escaping from very bad situations, e.g. likely death. The ones which don't tend not to survive too long - so this is a must for recurring villains.

One good way of making them recur is by not having them there in the first place. Start with a rumour, then some minions or the scene after they've done their thing. You should be able to keep a recurring villain going for ages before the party even meet them.

You could also make the recurring villain a coward. So he is engaged in some mischief when the heroes turn up, and simply books it.

Eventually the heroes may fight him for a while in a later encounter, but if the fight looks like it might go south - he's gone.

You can also use hit and run tactics instead. The recurring villain attacks, usually after an ambush, and launches his planned attacks. As soon as the heroes close for combat - he's gone. This helps if the ambush is launched from a hard to reach location, or the attacks include some battle-field control to slow the inevitable response down.

[Snappy]

Haha, no worries, I don't use DM fiat. Basically, she (and by that, I mean I) would map out an escape plan from the beginning, and if the players thwart it, they've earned her life. It's her last ditch effort in case the PCs manage to pull out a good trick (which they'll have at that point).

As for her new surprise, I was entertaining the idea of her making dark deals to gain the power of a warlock (from D&D). I feel like it would put a good spin on things, especially if the players decide to hunt down her new abettors later on. It gives them options, and that's something I liked when I was a PC.

[Darth Ultron]

You could nance all around the "railroad" issue and just say the half truth of "the villain has a typical, normal person escape plan". Then you can feel good and think the villain is just being normal.

Or you could just railroad, as the effect will be exactly the same.

In any case, the victory should be undoing her plans, not slaughtering her.

[Toilet Cobra]

It won't sit well with the players if you rescue your villain. But if they let him go, that's another story...

Seriously, it basically never happens, but you have a few points in your favor. As an anti-paladin who loses his connection to dark powers, he's no longer any real threat... in fact, his own men/demons would probably tear him apart if given the chance. So you can play up the fact that he's totally alone and pathetically weak now. And if there's a paladin/cleric in the players group, you can always subtly point out that killing a helpless, defeated foe is exactly what the anti-paladin would do.

I mean, let the players do whatever they want. Just don't rub their noses in the consequences either way and they won't feel their victory was tarnished.

[ATHATH]

You could also just let them kill him, then Rez him later.

[Segev]

The trick is to learn and establish that victory does not mean somebody dies. Every encounter where there's a fight, you should have a GOAL for the enemies, and the PCs should have a goal of their own. And most of the time, those goals should not be "kill the other side." "Kill the other side" should be a valid means towards that goal, of course, but so should "drive off the other side" or "take what you want and run away."

Take, for example, an encounter with a recurring boss figure in a ruined temple with an artifact of power that the villain's raced the heroes here to get. The heroes and villain arrive on-scene more or less together, and race for it, fighting and trying to slow each other down the whole way. If the villain gets it, she LEAVES, fleeing as fast as she can so the heroes can't take it from her. The heroes lose if they fail to get it first or take it from her before she escapes; none of them HAVE to die for the party to fail.

Similarly, if the PCs get ahold of it, all they have to do is convince her that she can't successfully take it, and that she'll die if she tries. Or get it and run away such that she can't catch them to take it back. In either case, she can quit/give up/leave, possibly screaming imprecations at the party as she goes. But she doesn't have to die for the heroes to win.

[Snappy]

Yeah, it's ultimately up to them if she escapes. The challenges will be tough (being 10th level), but not impossible to thwart. It was never my intention to rescue her; I just want to give the players something fun, while still keeping some resources to make more fun adventures. Fiction is full of defeated villains who come back with a vengeance, and I see potential for that here.

[evnaz]

I remember Reading about something similar to this before, The thing about an anti paladin is truthfully they would be a coward! unlike out champions of light and goodness an anti paladin would hate to fight in anything close to a fair fight and would probably escape after all their hired swords lose the the Pc's

[Snappy]

Yeah, I made a couple tweaks to the standard outline in order to make her a little more threatening. Tactical retreats are one thing; running away at the mere sight of your polar opposite is silly to me. Besides, a couple of my players have seen the same article before, and I don't want it to be predictable.