DMG Guns Optimization

[LordOfCain]

How would you optimize the guns in the Dungeon Master Guide?

[Ruethgar]

Martial Monk 1 for Penetrating Shot because 6ft lines as a standard action sounds unrealistic with an arrow, but with a gun it's just awesome.

[LordOfCain]

Martial Monk 1 for Penetrating Shot because 6ft lines as a standard action sounds unrealistic with an arrow, but with a gun it's just awesome.

Any non-Dragon/Dragon Compendium ideas?

[Troacctid]

Firearms are just exotic crossbows that don't work with any of the feats that you'd normally use to optimize crossbows. There are no special options that work with them and no reason to use them over standard ranged weapons. The way you optimize them is by doing extra work and spending extra money to accomplish exactly the same thing you could have gotten with a standard ranged weapon. For example, have your Unseen Servant reload it for you--now you can fire it every round, same as if you had a bow, and do the same damage as if you had a bow.

It's kind of like optimizing a sickle. "How do I optimize my sickle-wielding Fighter?" Well, uh, same as any other Fighter, except you do less damage because sickles do less damage.

[DrMotives]

There's the alchemical sling bullets, take a -2 to hit for an extra alchemist's fire / acid / holy water capsule that splatters all over your target. A large-caliber fire arm could handle the same ammunition.

[P.F.]

Well to start with, the optimal guns are the future tech ones, not the renaissance tech. None of them have any listed cost, so you'll need to find or otherwise acquire all the ammunition you intend to use. The antimatter rifle's 6d8 damage and 120' range increment is enticing, but it fires only once per round. What you probably want instead is a pair of laser pistols, or a laser rifle if you need long range attacks.

You'll need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Futuristic to avoid the -4 non-proficiency penalty, and Two-Weapon Fighting if you choose dual pistols (although unlike thrown weapons and crossbows, there is no guidance on whether your off-hand weapon is considered light). The feat that you don't want is rapid reload, which only works with crossbows. Other archery feats apply to any ranged weapon, so you get the standard Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. Beyond that, your best bet is probably to take levels of Order of the Bow Initiate. To qualify, you'll need Weapon Focus: Bow, but after that all the abilities work with any ranged weapon you have Weapon Focus for, which you will want to take to use with your guns.

Apart from the aforementioned unclarity about whether laser pistols are considered light weapons for dual-wielding purposes, and the fact that you will need a source of power cell ammunition which cannot be bought at any price, there is also the complication that the laser guns do not deal slashing, piercing or bludgeoning damage, but instead (and I'm not making this up) they deal "special" damage, and there are no rules as to how "special" damage interacts with damage reduction or anything else for that matter.

That's how I optimize my guns.

[druid91]

Well to start with, the optimal guns are the future tech ones, not the renaissance tech. None of them have any listed cost, so you'll need to find or otherwise acquire all the ammunition you intend to use. The antimatter rifle's 6d8 damage and 120' range increment is enticing, but it fires only once per round. What you probably want instead is a pair of laser pistols, or a laser rifle if you need long range attacks.

You'll need Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Futuristic to avoid the -4 non-proficiency penalty, and Two-Weapon Fighting if you choose dual pistols (although unlike thrown weapons and crossbows, there is no guidance on whether your off-hand weapon is considered light). The feat that you don't want is rapid reload, which only works with crossbows. Other archery feats apply to any ranged weapon, so you get the standard Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. Beyond that, your best bet is probably to take levels of Order of the Bow Initiate. To qualify, you'll need Weapon Focus: Bow, but after that all the abilities work with any ranged weapon you have Weapon Focus for, which you will want to take to use with your guns.

Apart from the aforementioned unclarity about whether laser pistols are considered light weapons for dual-wielding purposes, and the fact that you will need a source of power cell ammunition which cannot be bought at any price, there is also the complication that the laser guns do not deal slashing, piercing or bludgeoning damage, but instead (and I'm not making this up) they deal "special" damage, and there are no rules as to how "special" damage interacts with damage reduction or anything else for that matter.

That's how I optimize my guns.

Take ranks in Craft: Laser Engineer and Craft: Electrical Engineer at 1st level? :smalltongue:

Though a level of psychic warrior gives you Call Weaponry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm) Which simply summons whatever sort of weapon you want from time and space. Though it doesn't explicitly come with battery packs, the way the power works has you teleporting an existing laser gun from elsewhere, and who unplugs the battery pack from their laser guns in storage?

[Graypairofsocks]

Take ranks in Craft: Laser Engineer and Craft: Electrical Engineer at 1st level? :smalltongue:

Though a level of psychic warrior gives you Call Weaponry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm) Which simply summons whatever sort of weapon you want from time and space. Though it doesn't explicitly come with battery packs, the way the power works has you teleporting an existing laser gun from elsewhere, and who unplugs the battery pack from their laser guns in storage?

With Firearms in real life I think you are supposed to unload them when you put them in storage.

[tsj]

Firearms are just exotic crossbows that don't work with any of the feats that you'd normally use to optimize crossbows. There are no special options that work with them and no reason to use them over standard ranged weapons. The way you optimize them is by doing extra work and spending extra money to accomplish exactly the same thing you could have gotten with a standard ranged weapon. For example, have your Unseen Servant reload it for you--now you can fire it every round, same as if you had a bow, and do the same damage as if you had a bow.

It's kind of like optimizing a sickle. "How do I optimize my sickle-wielding Fighter?" Well, uh, same as any other Fighter, except you do less damage because sickles do less damage.

A DM could always rule that crossbow feats work with certain archaic firearms and that said firearms could get special bullets that deals extra damage compared to crossbow since
the actual black powder guns etc must have did more damage than a crossbow... why else use them?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

With Firearms in real life I think you are supposed to unload them when you put them in storage.

You most certainly are. In fact, under UK law, you must store ammunition seperately.

Still, there are a few ways to create unlimited ammo for a bow or crossbow (though there's actually fewer than you'd think, given that it's freaking 3.5), which might work for your lasers. If nothing else, major creation or something should be able to make a power pack, though you'll need a good few ranks in craft (frickin laser beams)

[Âmesang]

Any non-Dragon/Dragon Compendium ideas?
A shame, since DRAGON #321, July 2004, p.36 has the breachloading option for decreasing a gun's reload time from a full-round action to a move action.

Theoretically you could then reflavor Rapid Reload to work with it (six-shooter?), and even stretch out Manyshot to work with a double-barreled rifle.

[Elkad]

With Firearms in real life I think you are supposed to unload them when you put them in storage.

Any bedside table gun would be both loaded and unattended. Along with various other examples like the musket over the cabin door, patrol rifles in the trunk of police cars, etc.

And I could see energy weapons being stored in a method much like handheld radios. Sure, you can change the battery if needed, but more likely you just stick the whole weapon with power-cell in a charging rack.

[P.F.]

Take ranks in Craft: Laser Engineer and Craft: Electrical Engineer at 1st level? :smalltongue:

Again the problem of pricelessness rears its ugly head. Now raw materials costing ⅓ of — could be glossed over, as in no raw materials are required, or else they don't cost anything, but the time requirement means your check result × craft DC must also equal nil, and I'm not sure how to resolve that, since any check result times any DC will necessarily result in a numerical value, even if that number is zero. However, if you could find some way to divide your check (or the DC) by zero .... :smallwink:


Though a level of psychic warrior gives you Call Weaponry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/callWeaponry.htm) Which simply summons whatever sort of weapon you want from time and space. Though it doesn't explicitly come with battery packs, the way the power works has you teleporting an existing laser gun from elsewhere, and who unplugs the battery pack from their laser guns in storage?

Fortunately, the description implies that it starts out loaded: "A laser pistol fires fifty times before a new energy cell (weight 1 pound) needs to be reloaded." Awkward grammar aside, it's reasonable to assume that a called laser pistol will fire 50 times before it requires service.

[LordOfCain]

A shame, since DRAGON #321, July 2004, p.36 has the breachloading option for decreasing a gun's reload time from a full-round action to a move action.

Theoretically you could then reflavor Rapid Reload to work with it (six-shooter?), and even stretch out Manyshot to work with a double-barreled rifle.

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't want to say that Dragon was not allowed, just that I would like non-Dragon better because it would be more likely to be allowed.

[LordOfCain]

What about this:

Fire arms should be treated like other ranged projectile weapons.
... Could be interpreted as letting feats for crossbows apply potentially.

[kalasulmar]

Pathfinder did it for you. For free. Just look it up.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about extrapolating Hank's energy bow to the antimatter rifle, then using power shot, for a single attack at 8d8 + 20 damage (56 average) before other bonuses. The splitting enchantment doesn't work on rifles, but if you've gotten your DM this far, why not go the extra mile and get that twice. You need to reload afterwards, but that's okay.

If you really want to sniper people with an antimatter rifle, though, get the Diamond Mind discipline to work with ranged attacks.

[ekarney]

Whilst in my group if we're running a campaign featuring firearms we usually open up Dragon #221 (I think? Whichever one is Way of the Gun) and rule them as crossbows for actions needed and feats, with the exception that you also consume powder.

However if that's not an option, there's a couple of other things we can do. They vary in rules legality, but for the most part I see any breaches of the exact RAW as acceptable in cases like this where the concept is cool, and it doesn't break anything. (Decent slinger builds are also a bit dubious for similar reasons as gun builds.)

1. Aptitude Enhancement (Hand Crossbow) This is a staple for any gun build I make, first of all, iterative attacks, second of all it lets you throw crossbow feats onto guns, which means suddenly, guns have feat support!
With some finicky wordsmithing you could probably convince your DM to let the free action reloads apply to loading the powder as well.

2. If you are using Dr#221 (Or whatever) try playing an Avariel if you can get rid of the LA somehow, either by bargaining racial features or buy off. See if your DM will allow you to count a blunderbuss as an eligible weapon for their dive attack. Who doesn't like shotgun angels? You'll need Hand Crossbow Aptitude for this though, otherwise your damage and to-hit will suck. You'll also need a way of dropping the enemy's reflex saves though.

3. I'm pretty sure there's some heavily armoured long range builds out there, those kind of things aren't my speciality but if the other players want to collaborate you could be a team of cuirassers or something cool.

[daremetoidareyo]

Again the problem of pricelessness rears its ugly head. Now raw materials costing ⅓ of — could be glossed over, as in no raw materials are required, or else they don't cost anything, but the time requirement means your check result × craft DC must also equal nil, and I'm not sure how to resolve that, since any check result times any DC will necessarily result in a numerical value, even if that number is zero. However, if you could find some way to divide your check (or the DC) by zero .... :smallwink:



Fortunately, the description implies that it starts out loaded: "A laser pistol fires fifty times before a new energy cell (weight 1 pound) needs to be reloaded." Awkward grammar aside, it's reasonable to assume that a called laser pistol will fire 50 times before it requires service.

thanks to the optimize this feat competition, I think that I might have a way to help. Another way to optimize is to take the wanderer's diplomacy feat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy) in order to find a merchant who can sell you ammunition. or more guns. whatever.

"Canny Merchant: You can make a Diplomacy check to track down an item that is normally too expensive to be purchased in the town or settlement where you are currently located."



"No matter what rationale you use to place high-tech items in your game, they should always be like very rare magic items or artifacts—difficult or impossible to reproduce. Treating them as artifacts (see page 277) is most appropriate."

"Some advanced technological weapons are detailed below. These weapons have no costs provided, because they cannot be manufactured. They can only be found as artifacts."

So long as your DM is treating guns and ammunition as very rare magic items, you just need to get to a metropolis to figger it all out.

[LordOfCain]

Okay. Anyone agree or disagree about my quote from the DMG?

[Apricot]

By itself, it doesn't do it. "Treating as ranged weapons" doesn't translate to "treating as crossbows." All it means is that if something else is referencing ranged weapons as such, it references guns in the same way.

But any DM who doesn't give you some leeway with the rules in that sense is just being cruel. Guns in D&D are far from being broken, and giving players a little slack to play out their fantasies is the right thing to do.

[P.F.]

By itself, it doesn't do it. "Treating as ranged weapons" doesn't translate to "treating as crossbows." All it means is that if something else is referencing ranged weapons as such, it references guns in the same way.

But any DM who doesn't give you some leeway with the rules in that sense is just being cruel. Guns in D&D are far from being broken, and giving players a little slack to play out their fantasies is the right thing to do.

Seconded, on both counts. Feats like Point-Blank Shot and Rapid Shot that read "a ranged weapon" apply to guns because guns are "treated as ranged weapons." Rapid Reload, however, doesn't apply to "ranged weapons," it applies to a "chosen type of crossbow."

However, if your DM is willing to allow guns at all, and particularly if you are interested in black-powder or gunslinger-era weapons, there is no reason that any feats pertaining to crossbows should not also be permitted for firearms.

In fact, by strict R.A.W., the extended reference text for guns in D&D 3.5 is ... d20 Modern (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/modern/smack/srdhome.html), and the feat you want is Quick Reload, which is almost exactly like Rapid Reload, but for guns instead of crossbows. Several other gun-related feats there, too. However, if you've crossed the bridge to importing rules form other d20 games, the game you should probably use ... is Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger).

[jedipilot24]

I was just about to suggest backporting the Gunslinger from Pathfinder, someone beat me to it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Okay. Anyone agree or disagree about my quote from the DMG?

I agree that you can treat firearms as ranged projectile weapons. This does not necessarily allow you to treat them as crossbows. That means that some close reading is in order.

You can take cragtop archer as a DMG gunslinger. Which is dysfunctional as all heck. Imagine a dude shooting a gun on a 45 degree angle to the horizon, allowing gravity to push his bullets down on his enemies head.

Arcing Shot (Ex): A cragtop archer of 3rd level or higher can fire a high, arcing shot to gain greater range with her projectile weapon. Any time the cragtop archer can fire a projectile weapon in an area with at least 40 feet of clearance between her position and the ceiling (or any other overhead obstruction, such as a forest canopy), her maximum range with the projectile weapon is fifteen range increments rather than the normal ten range increments.

You can do all of your normal ammunition hijinx too. So enchant that stuff!

But you can't take rapid reload because it specifically calls out crossbows. However, if your DM is cool, they'll handwave that strict reading. You can't assume all DMs are that cool, Although if they are allowing guns from the DMG and then making zero concessions, it should make you question what you're doing.

What kind of build are you making?

[atemu1234]

I agree that you can treat firearms as ranged projectile weapons. This does not necessarily allow you to treat them as crossbows. That means that some close reading is in order.

You can take cragtop archer as a DMG gunslinger. Which is dysfunctional as all heck. Imagine a dude shooting a gun on a 45 degree angle to the horizon, allowing gravity to push his bullets down on his enemies head.

Arcing Shot (Ex): A cragtop archer of 3rd level or higher can fire a high, arcing shot to gain greater range with her projectile weapon. Any time the cragtop archer can fire a projectile weapon in an area with at least 40 feet of clearance between her position and the ceiling (or any other overhead obstruction, such as a forest canopy), her maximum range with the projectile weapon is fifteen range increments rather than the normal ten range increments.

You can do all of your normal ammunition hijinx too. So enchant that stuff!

But you can't take rapid reload because it specifically calls out crossbows. However, if your DM is cool, they'll handwave that strict reading. You can't assume all DMs are that cool, Although if they are allowing guns from the DMG and then making zero concessions, it should make you question what you're doing.

What kind of build are you making?

Makes Quick Reload worth the feat.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #277 have "Greyhawk 2000" article, which included some of futuristic weapon
From "Dwarven Firearms" I like the HMG: 4d8 of piercing damage, crit. 19-20/x2, range incr. 1000', weight 35 lb., and cost 6000 gp