[3.5] Killing a Planar Bound Entity

[Apricot]

So this is sort of a mechanics question. I've been tossing around ideas in my head regarding the Planar Binding variants, and on reading the original spell entries, it seems to me like a very efficient way of assassinating a prominent outsider (of max HD 18, thus including Pit Lords) would be to successfully Bind it in a fully prepared Magic Circle and then to just dump spells into the Circle. By the RAW of Magic Circle, none of the bound entity's abilities can exit the Circle, and so one can kill the summoned outsider without it being able to do anything in return. It's possible for it to succeed on its Charisma check and break out of the Circle, of course, but thanks to the +5 to the DC, it's very possible to make that check impossible to succeed on barring the confluence of houserules and a natural 20.* So, could one do this in order to kill an outsider of one's choosing? And wouldn't it even be possible to farm powerful outsiders for experience in this way? The only downsides I see for this are that you need to carefully choose attacks which can't disturb the circle (Magic Missile? Magic Missile) and that other outsiders might take notice at a gang of mortals setting up their own makeshift genocide factory. But that aside, am I missing some core part of the rules which states that this is outright impossible or that it will automatically cancel the Binding or the Circle?

*Say, run a Sorcerer starting on 18 Cha. Greater Planar Binding is level 8, so without scrolls, you're not going to consider this as an option before level 16. That puts you at 22 Cha, and the expected enhancement bonus will put you to 26 (28 is reasonable, but I want to express how easy it is to make this check impossible to pass). So, by the math, you have a 15 DC plus 5 from the completed circle plus another 8 from 1/2 CL plus another 8 from the Cha modifier for a grand total of DC 36. So in order to have any chance at all of passing that Charisma check, you'd need a character with a Cha modifier of 16, putting it at a whopping 42 Cha. Pit Fiends have 26. Please let me know if I've erred somewhere here.

[LTwerewolf]

They get will saves to not be summoned, and in order to call a specific individual you must state their name. It specifies proper name, which means the entire thing. Few are likely to know the full names of powerful outsiders.

[ryu]

They get will saves to not be summoned, and in order to call a specific individual you must state their name. It specifies proper name, which means the entire thing. Few are likely to know the full names of powerful outsiders.

Alternatively a knowledge skill check or a truenaming skill check. Oh and the names are probably findable via any number of decently leveled divinations. Lack of knowledge is like literally the obstacle wizards were built to obviate. I can think of no more directly implied talent in the fluff.

[LTwerewolf]

In order for you to find out the name, someone weaker than the person you're trying to bind has to know it. "I have divination spells, so hand over your notes" only works if the dm really wants you to be able to do it. Else it doesn't.

[Muggins]

Magic Circle must be cast within 1 round before the Planar Binding spell, the latter of which takes ten minutes to cast. And if you want the secure version of Magic Circle, casting that will also take either 10 minutes (hoping you make the check, rather than fumble) or 3 hours and 20 minutes (allowing you to take 10). Keep in mind that if you don't use the diagram, then they can still attack through the Magic Circle.

In other words, you'll need help.

Assuming that you do have help, though, you'll then need (either yourself or your buddy) to cast Dimensional Anchor in the same round to prevent it from just going back to where it came from. Keep in mind that Dimensional Anchor allows for Spell Resistance, Planar Binding allows a Will save and can be tested with both SR and a Charisma check, and Magic Circle allows both a Will save and tests of SR (or only a Will save if the Magic Circle was prepared via the diagram). That's six checks to see whether it actually takes.

Regardless, let's sat that everything goes to plan. You've got one, maybe two other spellcasters to help you; one to make the circle (and not fumble the check), the other to Aid Another the circle's Spellcraft check and to cast Dimensional Anchor on the circle just before the creature gets there. If you think that preparing in advance is going to help you, then what about the things you're trying to summon? They're going to have contingencies in place for if/when they get called, they're going to have servants who'll come to their aid, and if you fail then they'll probably know that someone just tried to bind them onto the prime material. These are not good things.

[ryu]

In order for you to find out the name, someone weaker than the person you're trying to bind has to know it. "I have divination spells, so hand over your notes" only works if the dm really wants you to be able to do it. Else it doesn't.

Interesting bit of fiat. You know what's a straightforward way of finding literally anythings name no questions asked? Truenaming skill. Works with a flat DC and there's not a damn thing to say about whether you know the name or not afterward.

[Muggins]

Pit Fiends have 18 Hit Dice and are CR 20. The Knowledge DC to determine its Truename is therefore 55, and you require 9 successful checks in order to do so. Each knowledge check tales one week and costs 1000gp base. If the Pit Fiend is smart, they'll have a Hidden Truename effect to impose a -8 to your checks, and if we're going hardcore into the truenaming rules then he's also got the Obscure Personal Truename feat for an additional -4. And that's assuming that said Pit Fiend doesn't go out of his way to get a Ritual of Renaming performed on him every month or so, which would make any research attempts on him impossible.

If you can make the equivalent of a DC 67 Knowledge (The Planes) check, though, then I suppose there isn't anything to stop you from learning it.

[LTwerewolf]

Not really fiat, since there has to be some way to find it out. With truenaming, you're either stuck being a truenamer, factotum, or dumping a lot of cross class skills or a feat. Also it directly states the truename skill doesn't help you learn a truename, it only helps you speak them. You need to research a thing's truename with a knowledge dc 15+2xCR (in this case CR 20 means DC 55). This isn't a trivial check to make. Also, it directly states a single success isn't going to cut it. You need 1/2 HD in successes (in this case 9) in order to learn it. Each attempt takes a week and 1,000 gold. Simply "using the truename skill" fails.



If you can make the equivalent of a DC 67 Knowledge (The Planes) check, though, then I suppose there isn't anything to stop you from learning it.

Except for the obvious requirement of the research guarantees that a powerful being is going to be alerted you're doing it. After that it's as simple as stepping into a forbiddance area and staying there until you get a new name.

[ryu]

Not really fiat, since there has to be some way to find it out. With truenaming, you're either stuck being a truenamer, factotum, or dumping a lot of cross class skills or a feat. Also it directly states the truename skill doesn't help you learn a truename, it only helps you speak them. You need to research a thing's truename with a knowledge dc 15+2xCR (in this case CR 20 means DC 55). This isn't a trivial check to make. Also, it directly states a single success isn't going to cut it. You need 1/2 HD in successes (in this case 9) in order to learn it. Each attempt takes a week and 1,000 gold. Simply "using the truename skill" fails.



Except for the obvious requirement of the research guarantees that a powerful being is going to be alerted you're doing it. After that it's as simple as stepping into a forbiddance area and staying there until you get a new name.

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the silliness that is skill check optimization and vecna blooded. The instant this becomes a numbers game the defense has lost.

[LTwerewolf]

If you're optimizing, so am I. You as the player and I as the dm, you lose. It's the fact of the game. Therefore silly optimizations are out.

[ryu]

If you're optimizing, so am I. You as the player and I as the dm, you lose. It's the fact of the game. Therefore silly optimizations are out.

Again fiat is nice. It's rather far outside the bounds of the thread though. The thread explicitly is about the rules as they stand rather than Oberoni Fallacy.

[Muggins]

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the silliness that is skill check optimization and vecna blooded. The instant this becomes a numbers game the defense has lost.
Automatically knowing what you tried to research them isn't a divination effect. Even then, what's stopping the Pit Fiend from becoming a Vecna-Blooded Pit Fiend?

[ryu]

Automatically knowing what you tried to research them isn't a divination effect. Even then, what's stopping the Pit Fiend from becoming a Vecna-Blooded Pit Fiend?

And now we get into cycling vecna blooded on and off on a daily basis to repeatedly erase all knowledge of one's self from history and render divination useless. This is the endstate of the information war if everyone has an LA to spare. No one of importance is known at all. Also everyone of importance quite deliberately looks down on those that are known. They weren't powerful enough or smart enough to not be known.

So the question is do these demonlords get a free LA in modification? The player can pay for it directly by just being a level lower.

[Muggins]

And now we get into cycling vecna blooded on and off on a daily basis to repeatedly erase all knowledge of one's self from history and render divination useless. This is the endstate of the information war if everyone has an LA to spare. No one of importance is known at all. Also everyone of importance quite deliberately looks down on those that are known. They weren't powerful enough or smart enough to not be known.

So the question is do these demonlords get a free LA in modification? The player can pay for it directly by just being a level lower.
You're the one who brought Vecna-Blooded into this, not me. Point stands that any decent Pit Fiend is going to have a Ritual of Renaming every so often.

[LTwerewolf]

Why would they care? LA only applies to the player. It doesn't adjust CR at all. It also doesn't add hit dice, so the maximum hit dice requirement from the binding spell isn't affected.

[ryu]

You're the one who brought Vecna-Blooded into this, not me. Point stands that any decent Pit Fiend is going to have a Ritual of Renaming every so often.

Oh I wasn't being any form of facetious or sarcastic. I regularly get involved with campaigns that force everyone involved to answer complicated philosophical questions like this. It's fun.

[Mechalich]

The simple answer to the OP question is just that you don't get XP for killing something you bound if it doesn't escape. Otherwise you could bind something and just cast dismissal (or equivalent) on it and send it back home (counts as a defeat) with absolutely zero risk. An encounter with no risk has a Challenge Rating of zero, regardless of power level of the beings involved.

[Andezzar]

Except for the obvious requirement of the research guarantees that a powerful being is going to be alerted you're doing it. After that it's as simple as stepping into a forbiddance area and staying there until you get a new name.What are you talking about? A knowledge check does not alert anyone.


The simple answer to the OP question is just that you don't get XP for killing something you bound if it doesn't escape. Otherwise you could bind something and just cast dismissal (or equivalent) on it and send it back home (counts as a defeat) with absolutely zero risk. An encounter with no risk has a Challenge Rating of zero, regardless of power level of the beings involved.Playing devil's advocate here: Every bound creature has a chance to escape, so there is always a risk.

[LTwerewolf]

You're researching the name, using the knowledge check in a special way. It's not standing there and instantly knowing the information like a standard knowledge check.

[Andezzar]

Are there any specific rules for this? While library research or similar might come to the attention of the particular creature, I don't see that as automatic.

Is there a rule that you cannot instantly remember a specific name through a normal knowledge check?

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information. Identification could be by name, and a (true) name definitely is a vulnerability.

[LTwerewolf]

The check directly states that part of the costs you're paying is for private libraries and should be reduced if you have access to a library with pertinent information or another source of significant truename lore. That's going to draw attention. Also you can't remember something unless you knew it to begin with.

[Andezzar]

Also you can't remember something unless you knew it to begin with.Of course, but who is to say that you didn't know it before? The normal knowledge check is to determine that.

[Zanos]

Magic Circle must be cast within 1 round before the Planar Binding spell, the latter of which takes ten minutes to cast. And if you want the secure version of Magic Circle, casting that will also take either 10 minutes (hoping you make the check, rather than fumble) or 3 hours and 20 minutes (allowing you to take 10). Keep in mind that if you don't use the diagram, then they can still attack through the Magic Circle.

In other words, you'll need help.

Assuming that you do have help, though, you'll then need (either yourself or your buddy) to cast Dimensional Anchor in the same round to prevent it from just going back to where it came from. Keep in mind that Dimensional Anchor allows for Spell Resistance, Planar Binding allows a Will save and can be tested with both SR and a Charisma check, and Magic Circle allows both a Will save and tests of SR (or only a Will save if the Magic Circle was prepared via the diagram). That's six checks to see whether it actually takes.

Regardless, let's sat that everything goes to plan. You've got one, maybe two other spellcasters to help you; one to make the circle (and not fumble the check), the other to Aid Another the circle's Spellcraft check and to cast Dimensional Anchor on the circle just before the creature gets there. If you think that preparing in advance is going to help you, then what about the things you're trying to summon? They're going to have contingencies in place for if/when they get called, they're going to have servants who'll come to their aid, and if you fail then they'll probably know that someone just tried to bind them onto the prime material. These are not good things.
You have seriously misread the rules on how planar binding works.
First of all, you can take 10 on drawing the circle in 10 minutes. It only takes longer if you take 20. A creature that can cast planar binding without a +10 to spellcraft is a moron, since you need to be at least level 9 to even cast it. Dimensional anchor is cast on the circle, not the creature. It doesn't get to roll SR against the anchor. It doesn't get to roll SR against the binding. It doesn't get a will save against the circle, since it specifically cannot disrupt the circle directly or indirectly. It gets a cha check to escape, but that's based on your caster level, and with the diagram that DC is at least a 24, so it needs an 18 cha and a nat 20 to escape at the minimum. Since it's based on your caster level and your charisma and has a base DC of 20 with the diagram, it has no chance of escaping if 1/2 your CL + your cha mod is higher than it's charisma bonus, which should be trivial to attain.

So we're down to two checks from six. It gets a will save to not get binded, which could be quite high. And it can make a cha check to escape, but the base DC is so high and trivially easy to increase that if you're a wizard and it makes it you deserve to die.


You're the one who brought Vecna-Blooded into this, not me. Point stands that any decent Pit Fiend is going to have a Ritual of Renaming every so often.
Yeah, and they could also all be running manipulate form builds with infinite scores in every stat. These tactics work fine on pretty much every non-unique printed outsider.

For what it's worth OP, you could also just set up your spells such that they trivially easily kill X creature, then just scry and die that creature type for XP until they're all extinct and you're well into epic levels. Technically you don't get experience if there's no actual challenge, though.

[Muggins]

Thanks for the breakdown, Zanos. I've never actually looked at these rules before, so I'm glad that's been cleared up.

[Apricot]

So the answer to the farming part of the question is "not if your DM is sensible," which was always the case. Still, you get a lot of free loot, which you can't really get around without doing a DM fiat "no." I don't think I'd do this to any DMs I know, though. It's mostly just a neat little trick, and maybe a fun hook to a campaign: "Noble adventurers, we've lost seventeen Solars already this month! Find out who is slaying them, and put an end to their madness!" Worth noting briefly is that the "actual encounter challenge" part of the rules can't be leaned on too heavily, or else you can make the game into some sort of silly try-really-hard-to-almost-lose-but-then-win deal. Is an encounter worth half of its experience because you rolled lucky at the start and eliminated one key enemy and then stomped the rest effortlessly? That's absurd, and that's why excessive adjusting for "real difficulty" is absurd.* In this case, the challenge of the encounter is preparing a daring and unique method of killing an enemy and bringing it to fruition. If you do it a second time, the challenge is gone and there's no real point to things.

I'm not really understanding the whole kerfuffle about names, though. Let's break this down into two categories: first, if you have a specific target, and second, if you don't. The second case is easy. You summon a generic. Next. The first case is a little more difficult, but still completely attainable, and moreover you must have a place to start your investigation under normal circumstances. Sure, that can require some creativity and some questing, but both of those are fun. Oh, and if you really want to learn some true names, you can use things like Contact Other Plane. If you're going after a Good entity, you can summon an Efreeti or a Glabrezu and ask for its name via Wish. Hell, if the Blood War is in full force in your setting (as it should be), it should be a way to get one type of fiend to go against another. I don't think you need to offer a massive sacrifice in order to get someone to give you a trivial yet potent amount of assistance in slaying a hated enemy.

So overall, the answer is: yes, I read this entirely correctly. Killing a major outsider is still tough even when they're helpless, and the correct preparations are essential, but once you get them Circled you're more than capable of killing them at your leisure. Good to know if I ever end up needing to kill a specific Outsider.


*Also worth considering: what does character level actually mean? Realistically, it's an abstract mechanism used to rate a character's ability to end encounters and thus somewhat on their combat potential. A character of a given level is all but defined as one for whom enemies of a lower level have ceased to pose a meaningful challenge. So, if you've figured out a way to make all or nearly all enemies of a certain high level or below that certain high level cease to pose a meaningful challenge, doesn't that mean you've realistically become higher level than them? So if you're able to do something like this, analytically it means you are already quite powerful and thus of a high level. So I don't see the problem of granting the experience and bumping your character(s) up into the range where the things they're going to try and do this to both expect it and have prepared for it. Basically, the answer becomes "yes, you're clever and imaginative, and now it's my turn to do the same." Better than saying "No, the party of casters that's experienced in slaying high-level outsiders is actually quite weak."