Magic Scrolls vs. Spell Scrolls

[Afgncaap5]

So, the difference between Magic Scrolls and Spell Scrolls was just pointed out to me in a discussion about the difference between scrolls that anyone can cast if they can read the language and scrolls that are a bit more exclusive. I see, though, that there's only one example Magic Scroll that isn't a Spell Scroll, that being the Scroll of Protection. (If I'm wrong on this, let me know; I'm still a bit hazy on the subject.) Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had made scrolls that weren't Spell Scrolls for their games, and if so how they were used.

One that I'm considering is for an Eberron game I'm thinking about running, wherein a competitor for House Deneith has developed magic scrolls that allow mercenaries to be instantly summoned from their hidden stronghold to wherever their services might be needed (and Orien isn't thrilled about a mercenary company apparently having access to teleportation magic for some as-yet unknown reason.)

[SharkForce]

protection scrolls are basically a thing from earlier editions. they were, as far as i'm aware, the only type of scroll usable by anyone back then, and i rather suspect they will be the only ones from this edition.

[Corran]

So who can use a spell scroll? Only those who know the spell that is scribed in said scroll?

[Clistenes]

So who can use a spell scroll? Only those who know the spell that is scribed in said scroll?

Yup.

You know, I think there should be more magic scrolls. We have potions and wands and wondrous items that everybody can use, so, why not Magic Scrolls of Remove Curse, or of Regeneration, or of Resurrection, or even of Wish?

[Corran]

Hmmm, I could see why being able to use scrolls of spells you dont know might be a huge benefit for classes that have limitations to their spellcasting (eg sorcerers which are limited to their known spells), or even to classes, but more importantly parties, that completely lack in spellcasting. Then again, scrolls are distributed by the DM, so he could be the balancing factor in that respect.

Perhaps a feat that would allow casting scrolls regardless of if you know the spell in the scroll would be a good way to adress this. Perhaps not. I have not given much though to it.

ps: Pardon my confusion, but would a wizard ,who does not have magic missile in his spellbook, be able to cast a magic missile from a scroll? Also, is a roll (perhaps arcana) involved, or you just cast a spell through a scroll?

[Clistenes]

Hmmm, I could see why being able to use scrolls of spells you dont know might be a huge benefit for classes that have limitations to their spellcasting (eg sorcerers which are limited to their known spells), or even to classes, but more importantly parties, that completely lack in spellcasting. Then again, scrolls are distributed by the DM, so he could be the balancing factor in that respect.

Perhaps a feat that would allow casting scrolls regardless of if you know the spell in the scroll would be a good way to adress this. Perhaps not. I have not given much though to it.

ps: Pardon my confusion, but would a wizard ,who does not have magic missile in his spellbook, be able to cast a magic missile from a scroll? Also, is a roll (perhaps arcana) involved, or you just cast a spell through a scroll?

If the spell is on your class list and is of a level you can already cast, you just cast it without rolling anything.

If the spell is on your class's spell list but of a higher level than you can normally cast, you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level.

[Silavor]

Perhaps a feat that would allow casting scrolls regardless of if you know the spell in the scroll would be a good way to adress this. Perhaps not. I have not given much though to it.


Be careful giving something like that out as a feat. Right now the ability to use magical objects not intended for your class is exclusively a level 13 Thief Rogue ability. If anyone could grab that power as a feat, it would diminish the identity of the Thief archetype.

[Clistenes]

Be careful giving something like that out as a feat. Right now the ability to use magical objects not intended for your class is exclusively a level 13 Thief Rogue ability. If anyone could grab that power as a feat, it would diminish the identity of the Thief archetype.

Or non-spell magic scroll could be made more varied. You could just make them more expensive and rare than spell scrolls.

[Corran]

Be careful giving something like that out as a feat. Right now the ability to use magical objects not intended for your class is exclusively a level 13 Thief Rogue ability. If anyone could grab that power as a feat, it would diminish the identity of the Thief archetype.
Yeah, good point. By the way, I had completelly forgotten about this feature. The rogue (thief) just leveled up in my eyes, as now he can use scrolls (from level 13 onwards) to steal some of the benefits of the AT. Greater invisibility with 100% chance of success in casting it, from level 13, with 7d6 sneak attack and cunning action? Yes please!!! All he needs is to find and buy these scrolls. Or steal them, he is a thief afterall. Thief just became a very good archtype in my eyes (especially if high elf or halfelf variant just to grab BB). Too bad reliable talent seems to not be working with the check involved in successfully using the scroll, otherwise AT would benefit from this as much.

[Afgncaap5]

Ahh... based on the discussion here I may have misinterpreted something initially. This line of thinking originally came from me seeing the apparent contradiction in the DMG between pages 140 and 200 that got me thinking that they were leaving open the possibility of non-spell scrolls like the Scroll of Protection. Which... I suppose that possibility is still left open technically, though I may have been reading into things to assume that it was an intentional distinction being drawn.

I still like the idea of scrolls that anyone can cast, though I wouldn't want *spell* scrolls that anyone could cast. Like, a scroll of Cure Wounds castable by a Fighter seems off to me, though a fighter having a scroll that they can whip out that just happens to heal all of his allies in a certain radius for 5 or 10 hp feels appropriate. Or as a more story-driven item, a scroll with a complicated rhyme on it that can be read by anyone that would keep the monster that lives in a dark forest from attacking the party as they travel.

[Segev]

In 3e, at least, if you wanted a one-off magic item of a particular spell usable by anybody, you made it as a command-activated Wondrous Item. I don't know how that works in 5e, if at all.

[Safety Sword]

I still like the idea of scrolls that anyone can cast, though I wouldn't want *spell* scrolls that anyone could cast. Like, a scroll of Cure Wounds castable by a Fighter seems off to me, though a fighter having a scroll that they can whip out that just happens to heal all of his allies in a certain radius for 5 or 10 hp feels appropriate. Or as a more story-driven item, a scroll with a complicated rhyme on it that can be read by anyone that would keep the monster that lives in a dark forest from attacking the party as they travel.

Are you saying Fighters are too dumb to read scrolls?

Let's face it. You're probably right....

I allow spell scrolls to be cast by anyone. But of course there is always the chance it will go badly if you're not trained.

[Citan]

Yeah, good point. By the way, I had completelly forgotten about this feature. The rogue (thief) just leveled up in my eyes, as now he can use scrolls (from level 13 onwards) to steal some of the benefits of the AT. Greater invisibility with 100% chance of success in casting it, from level 13, with 7d6 sneak attack and cunning action? Yes please!!! All he needs is to find and buy these scrolls. Or steal them, he is a thief afterall. Thief just became a very good archtype in my eyes (especially if high elf or halfelf variant just to grab BB). Too bad reliable talent seems to not be working with the check involved in successfully using the scroll, otherwise AT would benefit from this as much.

Or he could just pair up with a Wizard friend that will readily write any spell he knows on scrolls for the Thief to use...
In exchange, Thief will grab any scroll he can find during missions and bring them back to the Wizard so that the latter can learn new spells.

A typical inter-classes symbiosis... ;)

[Afgncaap5]

Are you saying Fighters are too dumb to read scrolls?

Let's face it. You're probably right....

I allow spell scrolls to be cast by anyone. But of course there is always the chance it will go badly if you're not trained.

Not necessarily, but I do think there's a certain level of expertise and finesse that comes with training. So I can see it being reasonable to say that there's something intrinsically "magical" about the process of activating a spell scroll, while there may also be something simpler about a scroll that just says "This item produces a magical ward of energy over your campsight. You can only really use it if you know how to read Dwarven, though..."

Still, I can see some benefits to making it so that anyone could cast from a spell scroll. Heck, that'd make it really easy to recreate the way spell scrolls worked in most of the Zork games.

[Occasional Sage]

In 3e, at least, if you wanted a one-off magic item of a particular spell usable by anybody, you made it as a command-activated Wondrous Item. I don't know how that works in 5e, if at all.

Poorly, frankly.

Where 3.5 made item creation easy, and 3.P made it trivial, 5e made the rule a blanket "NO" with the footnote of "Your DM may be lenient, but there are no rules to cover this so the sky's the limit for difficulty."