Half-Dwarf. Why Not?

[Edgerunner]

We got Half Elves and Half Orcs so why are we limited to those chosen by the PBH?

Just curious about how it would work and what the Pros/Cons would be of creating a mixed breed of races.

Half-Orc/Half-Deep Gnome (on his mother's side) for instance.

[Petrocorus]

IIRC, half-dawrves were a thing in Dark Sun. They are called Muls and you can find the rules for 3.5 here (http://http://www.athas.org/products/ds3).
Now, you need to adapt them to 5E. I don't know if a Dark Sun official setting is planned for 5E.

[Fumble Jack]

IIRC, half-dawrves were a thing in Dark Sun. They are called Muls.
Now, you need to adapt them to 5E. I don't know if a Dark Sun official setting is planned for 5E.

At most I think it's mentioned as an alternative setting in the Phb & I remember a small snippet, mentioned in the back of Princes of the Apocalypse, as an alternative setting for the adventure, but nothing official yet.

[napoleon_in_rag]

IIRC, half-dawrves were a thing in Dark Sun. They are called Muls and you can find the rules for 3.5 here (http://http://www.athas.org/products/ds3).
Now, you need to adapt them to 5E. I don't know if a Dark Sun official setting is planned for 5E.

Some Fans have worked on a 5e conversion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/31y843/dark_sun_5th_edition_players_handbook_v20/

I think a standard fantasy half dwarf would be very different than a mul, though. I have always felt that dwarves are much closer to humans than elves are. A half dwarf might just be a shorter, hairier human.

[Arkhios]

Half-dwarves are rather rare in fantasy-literature, which is why they are not presented by default in the rules.

However, earlier editions, at least D&D 3.0, (might be even earlier, but I don't know), had a half-dwarf race, called Mul, in the Dark Sun setting world of Athas.

Their physical capabilities were somewhat superior compared to their parent races: they had incredibly strong endurance (iirc, they could work under heavy labor much longer than others), their carrying capacity was somewhat equal to the current goliath, as they were depicted as dwarves with human stature, basically humans with dwarven proportions (they were quite massive, but were considered medium sized). They had some other features too, but I've unfortunately forgot them. I might need to scour through some old Dragon Magazines to find that number where I saw them first time.

As to why half-elves and half-orcs are more common?
Well, humans and elves have a long history of mutual admiration for each others' features, while orcs are savages which raid human settlements often, and unwanted rapes are not uncommon.

Dwarves generally stick to themselves in their underground holds, preferring to live in their dwellings, which would be rather ill-suited for humans.

EDIT: Triple ninja'd, dammit! xD

[Petrocorus]

Out of my mind, i would probably give them those kind of traits:

Mul Racial Traits:
• Ability Score Increase. +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma:
Combining the human height with the Dwarven musculature, muls end up stronger than either parent race, but their status as born–to–be slaves makes them insecure in their dealings with others.
• Age. ???
• Alignment. Muls tend towards neutrality with respect to good and evil ,but run the gamut with respect to law or chaos.
• Size. Muls grow as high as seven feet, weighing upwards of 250pounds,but carry almost no fat at all on their broad muscular frames.
• Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision.Thanks to your dwarven parentage, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it w ere dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
• Tireless. You have advantage on checks for performing a physical action that extends over a period of time (running, swimming, holding breath, and so on). This bonus may also be applied to savings throws against spells and magical effects that cause weakness, fatigue, exhaustion or enfeeblement.
• Extended Activity. Muls may engage in up to 12 hours of hard labor or forced marching without suffering from fatigue.
• Dwarven Toughness. Your hit point maximum increases by 1, and it increases by 1 every time you gain a level.
• Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common.

[Temperjoke]

You could technically make one, using the variant human. Go with +1 to Con, +1 to Strength or Wisdom (depending on parentage), Durable feature (which gives another +1 to Con), and Athletics skill. The rest is just descriptive fluff. The only thing you'd be lacking would be darkvision, which the other half-races get automatically, and if the DM is letting you go this far, it's not out of the question to let you have it, since it's not terribly game-breaking.

[Edgerunner]

OK all this makes good sense but...

What do we do when other races create children?

IE: Let's not limit this discussion to Half-Dwarf

[hymer]

You could technically make one, using the variant human.

I like this a whole lot. I'm not about to put half-dwarves into my campaigns, but I'll try to remember this in case a player makes the specific inquiry.

[Edgerunner]

I like this a whole lot. I'm not about to put half-dwarves into my campaigns, but I'll try to remember this in case a player makes the specific inquiry.

Just curious as to Why you wouldn't allow one?

[hymer]

Just curious as to Why you wouldn't allow one?

I wouldn't as DM put one in. If a player wanted one, it'd be the only one in the world, unless more PCs were made like this.
Dwarves are, as Tolkien put it IIRC, a people 'apart'. They are too different in physiology and spirituality to be able to produce offspring with other 'races' (an unfortunate term that encompasses cultures and species, and is quite loaded IRL). Dwarves were made by a slightly wayward Aulë for a specific purpose, and that purpose had nothing to do with breeding with Men or Elves. I like to pay homage to that, and to half-elves being genuinely rare. In my current 3.5 campaign, I don't even have half-elves as a general option.

Maybe I'm just (currently) tired of half-breeds in general, or maybe the general widening of 'race' options over the past decades, which to me seems to reduce definition. A half-breed is a little like the lack of an idea rather than a new invention. If someone wants something halfway between a human and a dwarf, they could do someone who grew up with different foster parents, or parental figures.

[CantigThimble]

I'd probably just rule that Dwarves and Humans are close enough physically that you just end up with taller, skinnier dwarves or shorter, thinker humans. There are half-dwarfs but they aren't that different from humans or dwarves. Basically, whatever weird reaction happened to make dexterity, intelligence and wisdom modifiers turn into charisma modifiers didn't occur when dwarves and humans had kids, so it's no big deal.

[M Placeholder]

Dark Sun had the Mul, and here is my take on the Mul (at least the one I offered the players when we converted from 3.5, and remember Psionics are dominant in DS) -

Ability Score Increase – You Strength Increases by 2 and your Constitution increases by 2.
Age – Muls reach adulthood at age 15 and can live to 80 years of age.
Size – Muls stand between 6 foot and 7 foot tall, and weigh in the region of 260 pounds. Your size is medium.
Speed – Your base speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision – You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You cannot discern colour in the darkness, just shades of grey.
Dwarven Resistance – You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage. You also have advantage on Constitution and Strength saving throws against magic.
Tireless – You can engage in up to 24 + your Constitution modifier hours of manual labour before needing to complete a long rest. You also have advantage on Constitution saves against exhaustion.
Arena Bred - You are proficient in Athletics.
Languages – You can speak Common.

In the Dragonlance Setting, Half Dwarves were detailed in the Races of Ansalon book, and in the Forgotten Realms, the D'Tariq of the Anauroch are strongly implied to be the descendants of dwarves from fallen Netheril and humans.

[JNAProductions]

Both Muls presented here are, I feel, a tad overpowered. Dark Sun Gnome's is closer to balanced, but I'd drop Dwarven Resistance to make it in line with other races. Or at least, definitely drop the advantage on saving throws versus Strength and Constitution based magic.

[napoleon_in_rag]

However, earlier editions, at least D&D 3.0, (might be even earlier, but I don't know), had a half-dwarf race, called Mul, in the Dark Sun setting world of Athas.



Dark Sun goes back to Second Edition in early nineties.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I wouldn't as DM put one in. If a player wanted one, it'd be the only one in the world, unless more PCs were made like this.
Dwarves are, as Tolkien put it IIRC, a people 'apart'. They are too different in physiology and spirituality to be able to produce offspring with other 'races' (an unfortunate term that encompasses cultures and species, and is quite loaded IRL). Dwarves were made by a slightly wayward Aulë for a specific purpose, and that purpose had nothing to do with breeding with Men or Elves. I like to pay homage to that, and to half-elves being genuinely rare. In my current 3.5 campaign, I don't even have half-elves as a general option.

Maybe I'm just (currently) tired of half-breeds in general, or maybe the general widening of 'race' options over the past decades, which to me seems to reduce definition. A half-breed is a little like the lack of an idea rather than a new invention. If someone wants something halfway between a human and a dwarf, they could do someone who grew up with different foster parents, or parental figures.

This is why fantasy, especially D&D, has stagnated.

So many people are afraid to go outside of what Tolkien did that they have made fantasy very un-fantasy like.

I believe even GRR Martin has quotes about stuff like this.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Both Muls presented here are, I feel, a tad overpowered. Dark Sun Gnome's is closer to balanced, but I'd drop Dwarven Resistance to make it in line with other races. Or at least, definitely drop the advantage on saving throws versus Strength and Constitution based magic.

Dark Sun was always overpowered compared to typical D&D. The original 2e, you started at lvl 3 and rolled 5d4 for stats.


What I am really interested in is a Half Elf/ Half Dwarf. Like if Gimli and Galadriel had ever gotten it on.

[Temperjoke]

This is why fantasy, especially D&D, has stagnated.

So many people are afraid to go outside of what Tolkien did that they have made fantasy very un-fantasy like.

I believe even GRR Martin has quotes about stuff like this.

Well, they're afraid of not making sales, since their audience sees Tolkien as the standard. Deviating from the standard tends to not go over as well as you might expect.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Maybe I'm just (currently) tired of half-breeds in general, or maybe the general widening of 'race' options over the past decades, which to me seems to reduce definition.

I kind of agree with this. I feel like race has become just another way to optimize a character's stats, not a thing to aid in role playing.

Elves are played as humans with a better dex.
Dwarves are played as humans with better str and con.

[M Placeholder]

Both Muls presented here are, I feel, a tad overpowered. Dark Sun Gnome's is closer to balanced, but I'd drop Dwarven Resistance to make it in line with other races. Or at least, definitely drop the advantage on saving throws versus Strength and Constitution based magic.

It's not overpowered for Dark Sun - Most of the monsters have innate psionics, and that is far more common for the setting. Magic is far rarer.

[JNAProductions]

Okay. I present the viewpoint of default, generic 5E, for which it is overpowered. I'd include a note noting it's for Dark Sun D&D, not Fantasia Generica.

[Petrocorus]

It's not overpowered for Dark Sun - Most of the monsters have innate psionics, and that is far more common for the setting. Magic is far rarer.

I don't think either of them is overpowered. If you compare them to what both the Dwarves, the Half-elf and the Vuman from the PHB got.

[JNAProductions]

I don't think either of them is overpowered. If you compare them to what both the Dwarves, the Half-elf and the Vuman from the PHB got.

*Shurg*

Feel free to use them in your own games. I haven't done the math or anything, just going with my gut, and I tend to veer on the lower end of balanced. Just to avoid overshadowing existing choices.

[M Placeholder]

Tribality created the hypothetical offspring of Kili and Tauriel. (http://tribality.com/2015/03/03/what-if-kili-and-tauriel-dd-5e-dwelves/)

[CNagy]

Personally, if I were making a Half-Dwarf for a non-Dark Sun campaign, I'd start with the Half-Elf as the basis. Of course, I'm a speciest bastard who thinks Human blood would give offspring versatility bonuses in pretty much all cases.

So a +2 Con, +1 to two other stats. This makes the Half-Dwarf better (than Half-Elf) for classes that do not utilize Charisma at all (sturdier, that is), while being functionally equal in classes that do use Charisma (from the view of Standard Point Buy), so it is going to lose a few things that it would otherwise have point for point with a Half-Elf.

Darkvision, 60 feet.

Half-Dwarven Resilience giving advantage on saves versus Poison but not giving resistance to Poison damage.

Proficiency in Athletics.

Size: Medium, Speed: 30 feet. Languages: Common and Dwarven.

[Kane0]

We got Half Elves and Half Orcs so why are we limited to those chosen by the PBH?

Just curious about how it would work and what the Pros/Cons would be of creating a mixed breed of races.

Half-Orc/Half-Deep Gnome (on his mother's side) for instance.

A prevalent theory is that the existence of some D&D half breeds but not others operate primarily on what people consider attractive. Half elves, Tieflings (Succubi), dragonborn/half dragons (Polymorphing dragons), etc tend to follow this pattern. The notable exception is the half-orc, which has darker connotations and was one of the earliest races that allowed players to play a monstrous character without actually being a monster.

Its essentially a popularity contest. The ones people like are the ones that make the cut.

[nanoboy]

The reason why is that Tolkien wrote about elves and humans interbreeding. He wrote about that, because the various fairy races of Celtic myth tended to wed nobles. (See the story of Pwyll from Welsh mythology as an example.) He didn't write about dwarves marrying humans, because there was less mythical precedence for it, I think. I remember reading some Norse myths about dwarves taking human wives, but it was usually a bit rapey.

Subsequent fantasy authors followed Tolkien's lead for the most part. The other major source for D&D's fictional inspiration (Robert E. Howard) never included of any non-humans who were anything but evil monstrosities.

[Arkhios]

What if ...And I'd like to emphasize IF... Halflings were actually half dwarves, half humans. Nothing says that dwarves and humans should combine in something that's larger than themselves. Why couldn't it go other way around? :P

IIRC, Even Tolkien was vague about halflings' origins. They just seem to have popped into existence at some point, and seem to have always been there. Only that they have remained unseen due to their size.
In middle-earth, halflings live in holes built underground which, to me, seems an awful lot like dwarven trait. Added with human tendency for aboveground dwellings, their holes are hiding only barely underneath the soil.
Halflings have close relations with their community and kin. Dwarves live in tight communities and are known to have extended kin.
Halflings tend to be extroverts by nature. A trait that I'd like to link to humans nature.
Halflings are agile. Well, that's probably because they are small. Besides, humans are not any more clumsier than they are stronger than others. Nothing there seems to put agility a non-human trait.
Halflings are short. They even tend to look like tiny humans.
Halflings are hairy. At least their feet are often described as such (thanks a bunch, Tolkien!)
Halflings like to eat a lot. A lot more than they should be able for their size. Dwarven-Human metabolism at work here?
Halflings are highly energetic. (See about eating a lot).
A snippet from PHB: "Some say that stouts have dwarven blood." A precedence of sorts that, yes, dwarves in D&D can probably interbreed with other races too.

I don't know about you, but for me this actually makes a lot of sense. Especially for Stout Halflings.

Edit: PS. One might even argue that Gnomes are, in fact, a hybrid between dwarves and elves.

[ZenBear]

I think if you want to make it easy, just give half-dwarves the goliath stat block. It works pretty well.

If I were to homebrew it, I think I would take cues from the half-elf.

Ability Score Increase: Your Constitution score increases by 2, and two other ability scores of your choice increase by 1.

Age: Half-dwarves mature at the same rate as humans do and reach adulthood around the age of 20. They live a bit longer than humans, however, often exceeding 120 years. (Reduced a bit from half-elf because dwarves live shorter lives than elves)

Alignment: Half-dwarves share the lawful bent of their dwarven heritage. They value community and tradition, demonstrating deep loyalty and respect for authority. They are disciplined and hard working by nature.

Size: Half-dwarves stand about the same height as humans ranging from 5 to 6 feet, but are noticeably thicker and more densely muscled. Your size is Medium.

Speed: Your base walking speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision: Thanks to your dwarven blood, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Dwarven Resilience: You have advantage on saving throws against poison, and you have resistance against poison damage.

Tireless: Your dwarven heritage grants you remarkable endurance, and your human ambition gives you the drive to push the limits of that endurance. You have advantage on rolls to resist Exhaustion. (I wonder how often this might come up. Perhaps instead of advantage to resist, you simply get to ignore one level of exhaustion 1/day? That would make them the ultimate Berserker Barbarian race.)

Languages: You can speak, read, and write Common and Dwarven.

[Arkhios]

I think if you want to make it easy, just give half-dwarves the goliath stat block. It works pretty well.

This reminds me, I actually made a homebrew variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475066-Goliath-with-subtle-ish-adjustments-what-do-you-think) from Goliath a while back, including a "subrace" which I named as Mul, though I suppose it could use some fine tune, still.


Tireless: Your dwarven heritage grants you remarkable endurance, and your human ambition gives you the drive to push the limits of that endurance. You have advantage on rolls to resist Exhaustion. (I wonder how often this might come up. Perhaps instead of advantage to resist, you simply get to ignore one level of exhaustion 1/day? That would make them the ultimate Berserker Barbarian race.)

In my version of variant goliath, I thought about that too, but the old Mul could go without need for sleep for 72 hours, after which they would be considered having been awake for 24 hours. So technically, Exhaustion resistance might not be the way to build this (especially with the possibility for shenanigans). Tireless seems to be much more like a ribbon than anything with an actual effect that occurs frequently. I'd just use the old ruling: Can stay awake for 72 hours and count as been awake for 24 hours afterwards. (Not by these words, but along the line.)

[DizzyWood]

What if ...And I'd like to emphasize IF... Halflings were actually half dwarves, half humans. Nothing says that dwarves and humans should combine in something that's larger than themselves. Why couldn't it go other way around? :P

IIRC, Even Tolkien was vague about halflings' origins. They just seem to have popped into existence at some point, and seem to have always been there. Only that they have remained unseen due to their size.
In middle-earth, halflings live in holes built underground which, to me, seems an awful lot like dwarven trait. Added with human tendency for aboveground dwellings, their holes are hiding only barely underneath the soil.
Halflings have close relations with their community and kin. Dwarves live in tight communities and are known to have extended kin.
Halflings tend to be extroverts by nature. A trait that I'd like to link to humans nature.
Halflings are agile. Well, that's probably because they are small. Besides, humans are not any more clumsier than they are stronger than others. Nothing there seems to put agility a non-human trait.
Halflings are short. They even tend to look like tiny humans.
Halflings are hairy. At least their feet are often described as such (thanks a bunch, Tolkien!)
Halflings like to eat a lot. A lot more than they should be able for their size. Dwarven-Human metabolism at work here?
Halflings are highly energetic. (See about eating a lot).
A snippet from PHB: "Some say that stouts have dwarven blood." A precedence of sorts that, yes, dwarves in D&D can probably interbreed with other races too.

I don't know about you, but for me this actually makes a lot of sense. Especially for Stout Halflings.

Edit: PS. One might even argue that Gnomes are, in fact, a hybrid between dwarves and elves.

OH MY GOD YESS!!!!!! I am using this!

[MaxWilson]

Muls with Tireless-type traits don't make sense outside of Darksun unless you also modify your dwarves to have a Focus.

Which might be kind of cool actually. I always liked dwarven banshees...

[Arkhios]

Muls with Tireless-type traits don't make sense outside of Darksun....

Agreed, but then again, if we called them anything other than Muls, they wouldn't be Muls from Athas, and therefore their traits should be something else entirely ;)

Dark Sun is a weird place. Anything in Athas should stay in Athas :p

[Arkhios]

OH MY GOD YESS!!!!!! I am using this!

Consider this a bit further:
Forest Gnomes = Hill Dwarf / Elf
Rock Gnomes = Mountain Dwarf / Elf
Svirfneblin = Duergar / Elf

Taking all this in makes me wonder that are dwarves actually humping everything that moves and we don't know the half of it it? :D

[Randomthom]

I kind of agree with this. I feel like race has become just another way to optimize a character's stats, not a thing to aid in role playing.

Elves are played as humans with a better dex.
Dwarves are played as humans with better str and con.

There are certainly many players who think only to optimise. When I GM, I like to use in-game reminders of who/what they are.

In a recent Pathfinder campaign, one of my players has learned that his tiefling needs points in the disguise skill and can expect mistreatment, mistrust and possibly even violence by letting his true race be known in civilised places. The half-elf has been spat at by humans, ignored by high elves and even got the elf he travels with shunned by the elves too, simply my association.

In FR-based campaigns Aasimar, Tiefling, Half-elf, Half-orc etc. should be rare. Drow should be almost non-existent in an above-ground campaign.

General folk are likely to be more receptive to Aasimar but still wary, perhaps even fearful of them though not likely to be violent towards them. Half-elves should escape full-blown violence but equally can hold little hope of help coming from either human or elf communities in times of hardship. Tieflings and Half-orcs can expect anything from marginalisation to full-blown grab-your-torch-and-pitchforks mob brutality, particularly in smaller or one-race communities.

Not sure where half-dwarves would fit in. Mechanically it's pretty simple to design (or just use variant human as has been suggested) but how would they be considered by other races?

[Steampunkette]

The reason is because no one would ever have sex with a dw-

http://www.councilofelrond.com/wp-content/uploads/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/fanart/invitedartists/shart/dwarfn.jpg

...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/85/26/4e/85264e615ca7a77fd78770685a21e306.jpg

...

...

I'll be in my bunk.

[Logosloki]

This is why fantasy, especially D&D, has stagnated.

So many people are afraid to go outside of what Tolkien did that they have made fantasy very un-fantasy like.

I believe even GRR Martin has quotes about stuff like this.

Not that anybody uses Tolkien's Half Elves. The general idea of Half-elfkind comes from the myths of unions between humans and fae. A half elf in middle earth on the other hand is a being in flux, they are not elf nor man and cannot remain as both. Eventually they must decide whether they will reject their humanity and become an elf or reject their elf heritage and become human. The offspring of a half-elf though is always a half-elf, and when they grow older they too must make the choice. Elrond chose to become and elf but his daughter Arwen used the choice given to her to become a human and marry Aragon.

[Douche]

Humans are actually the product of dwarves and elves. They're dwarf-elves.

[Petrocorus]

Humans are actually the product of dwarves and elves. They're dwarf-elves.

I actually entertained this idea for a while for my own setting.

[M Placeholder]

There are certainly many players who think only to optimise. When I GM, I like to use in-game reminders of who/what they are.

In FR-based campaigns Aasimar, Tiefling, Half-elf, Half-orc etc. should be rare. Drow should be almost non-existent in an above-ground campaign.



For many places in the realms, thats true, but in the Unapproachable East, half - elves and half orcs should be common in quite a number of places. In Thesk, orcs and half orcs are common and are fully intergrated into the major settlements. In my campaign (set in the east), the half orc has been getting abuse and the cold shoulder, but for being a Paladin of Helm, not due to his race. As for half - elves, in Aglarond they are the majority (in DR1375) and the Crinti (half drow) rule Dambrath.

I agree on making the players aware of what they are. Both the Paladin of Helm and the Dragonborn can expect a lot of stares and should feel uncomfortable at times.

The only half dwarf of any importance that I can remember off the top of my head in FR is (or more likely was) a member of the Iron Throne of Sembia, and judging by the description of his arrival in the Realms (wild magic accident) and his physical description and other lore (tall, no body hair, muscular and awesome in the gladatorial arena), he was a Mul from Athas.

[Theodoxus]

I'm of the opinion that we humans got lazy when we started naming things. Half-orcs aren't the crossbreeding of humans and orcs (eww!) No, they're their own species - that somewhat resembles what you'd think of, would an orc mate with a human (again, eww).

Half-elves are likewise, a race wholly unto themselves. Definitely of fey origin, but unique, like red caps and satyrs...

I'm a strict adherent to genetics. Like breeds with like. Magic schmagic - be damned and all that. :smallbiggrin: