How does Uncanny Trickster work?

[weckar]

I was just reading uncanny trickster and man did it leave me confused! The confusing part in particular is where it gains "+1 level of existing class features". I just don't get how it works.

You get this twice, see. Say I was a single classed character before this. Then I get to take the class abilities of that characters levelup twice. But is that the SAME levelup or consecutive ones? In most cases, getting the same class features twice is rather pointless is it not? Especially if after completing the 3 level prc continue in that class, and are basically dead with a dead level?

In fact, what if you took this as your 21st level? You'd have no class features to actually get!

Can someone shed some light on how this is supposed to work?

[eggynack]

You get +1 level. If you start with five, then the first advancement gets you to six, and the next +1 will get you to seven. Dunno why you'd go from six to double-six. Double-six certainly doesn't come after six.

[Psyren]

It's very straightforward: "At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain the benefit of your previous class's Hit Dice, attack progression, skill points, or saving throws. "

In other words, it's exactly like gaining a level in your base class, except you replace the HD, BAB and saves from that class with those of the UT, and then you add the UT class features (e.g. bonus trick and favored trick) on top of that.

[weckar]

So if I entered with Paladin 12, do the whole thing, I'd then take Paladin 15, not 13?

[Malimar]

So if I entered with Paladin 12, do the whole thing, I'd then take Paladin 15, not 13?


Paladin 1-12: gain all class features, HD, BAB, saves, and skills from Paladin 1-12
Uncanny Trickster 1-3: gain all class features of Paladin 13-14, but HD, BAB, saves, skills, and additional class features from Uncanny Trickster 1-3
Paladin 13: gain all class features of Paladin 15, but HD, BAB, saves, and skills of Paladin 13

[LTwerewolf]

Unless there's some errata I'm missing, you don't get class features at uncanny trickster 1.

[Pluto!]

The question confuses me more than the class itself. It does for class features exactly what caster PrCs do for spellcasting - effectively advances them beyond your actual levels in the original class.

So just like a Wizard 10/Eldritch Knight 5/Wizard 5 has the spells of a 19th level Wizard, a Rogue 10/Uncanny Trickster 3/Rogue 7 has the class features of a level 19 Rogue.

Neither of them gain the same class features or spells twice, they just add the pertinent PRC levels to their original class levels and proceed as normal.

[weckar]

So all this implies that the implied HellFire Warlock abuse is in fact bogus?

[LTwerewolf]

It's based on wording. Hellfire warlock states:

Hellfire Blast (Sp): Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast. A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level. Source (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)

Uncanny trickster says that you get the class features and (here's the important part) an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. Since it specifies that it's an increase in effective level for the effect, that means for those like hellfire blast that are based solely on how many levels you have in it rather than giving an increase at certain levels (there are a few circumstances of this) it gives you that increase. That means the shenanigans do in fact work. At some tables you'll get books thrown at you. At others they'll say "not like warlock is super powered anyhow." At still others you'll be laughed at because their orb of sound just did 30x the damage you did with almost no investment on their part. You need to figure out where your table is.

You won't get any other abilities that don't directly state that it's based on levels, such as when a class states that it gets a +2 bonus to X at 1st level, which is then increased to +4 at 2 and +6 at 3, if you go above the capped level of this example prestige class, you won't get +8 at 4. For that to work, the wording would need to be starts a +2 at 1st and goes up by 2 every level. This change makes it work beyond the level cap of the prc.

[Pluto!]

^What he said.

GitP answer (applicable on this particular subforum): Hellfire Blast isn't worded in such a way that it refers to an explicit progression. Rather, it is based on tallying your class levels and rolling extra damage for each one. Because HFW is only 3 levels long, Uncanny Trickster doesn't give any new features at levels 2 or 3, but it still does numerically add to the class level, which is then referenced by the Blast calculation.

Actual answer (applicable in any other community in the world): This is a exploitative and degenerate reading which relies on the precise wording of the game rules being interpretted in a more legalistically exact sense than any reasonable person could expect them to have been written in. If somebody asked to do this in a game, I would give them a blank stare for no fewer than 2 seconds before telling them that that's stupid and to do something else.

[eggynack]

Actual answer (applicable in any other community in the world): This is a exploitative and degenerate reading which relies on the precise wording of the game rules being interpretted in a more legalistically exact sense than any reasonable person could expect them to have been written in. If somebody asked to do this in a game, I would give them a blank stare for no fewer than 2 seconds before telling them that that's stupid and to do something else.
Feh. Warlocks kinda suck. Not massively, but they're on the middle-low end for classes. They could use the help, particularly where damage is concerned. Uncanny trickster could kinda use the help too, cause it doesn't do much aside from extending progressions like that. None of this seems especially exploitative or degenerate to me.

[Malroth]

Unless you ignore their blast abilities and use them as Artificers then they only suck till 12

[Anlashok]

Actual answer (applicable in any other community in the world): This is a exploitative and degenerate reading which relies on the precise wording of the game rules being interpretted in a more legalistically exact sense than any reasonable person could expect them to have been written in. If somebody asked to do this in a game, I would give them a blank stare for no fewer than 2 seconds before telling them that that's stupid and to do something else.
How pretentious of you.

Most tables I've seen completely allow it because it's not particularly exploitative and frankly not much of a power grab either. Your weird insistence to the contrary is kind of headscratching to say the least.


Granted, it's perfectly valid to disagree with the ruling and not like it yourself, but the argumentum ad populum (except with a populous that doesn't exist, so I'm not sure what you'd call it) to try to elevate your position to some grandiose level just comes across and pompous and narcissistic.

Just say "I don't like this interaction and don't allow it" it. It's much simpler.