Leveling up Paladin

[TheRedTemplar]

EDIT: I had forgotten about the one-time SCAG rebuild option. Considering how useful Heavy Armor Master is at later levels and how I don't need 18 Strength as much with Dawnbringer, I've rebuilt him with Warcaster instead and changed his stats around a little bit.
My group is coming up to the second part of Out of the Abyss, and I was wondering what would be the best direction to take my Paladin. His role is that of a DPS Tank and he specializes in not getting hit, or at the least, minimizing the damage he takes, while also uses Smite spells and Divine Smite to pull his own weight. He's a Red Dragonborn Oath of Ancients Pally, and he's a Sword and Board. He's currently level 8, and has stats of 16/10/14/8/10/16 with the feats Shield Master and Warcaster. He also has Dawnbringer (sentient sunsword found early in the adventure), Dwarven Plate (+2 Plate, reduce forced movement by 10ft), and a +1 Shield. I'm using all average hit point rolls for him so I don't have to risk a bad roll.

Since he's level 8, there were a few paths I was considering taking him down:

Option 1: I go full 20 Oath of Ancients Paladin. This would let him get Improved Divine Smite and the Aura of Courage, allow for standard feat progression, net him Protection from Energy/Poison, Death Ward and Stoneskin for the ability to resist nearly any damage type he needs to at the time, Revivify, and end with that beast of a capstone that turns him into the Elder Champion with regeneration and the ability to make two attacks and then spam Destructive Wave, Ice Storm or Moonbeam, while imposing disadvantage on all saving throws against those spells. While it's unlikely I'll even get him to 20th level, he'd likely be the most damaging of all the options once he gets to that point, especially with the disadvantage on enemy saves. Being able to go down to 1 hit point once a day helps too.
Option 2 : I take some levels in sorcerer. Out of all the sorcerer types, I think the one I'd be most interested in picking would be Wild Magic, because my DM loves it and would let me spam Tides of Chaos for near constant advantage and Wild Magic rolls. I also resist fire and spell damage, and I have shield master, so even if a fireball got dropped on me I'd be fine, in fact it might even be helpful since I'm in melee so the enemies would get hit with me. But the main two reasons to pick this for me would be for two different things: One of them would be the Shield spell, which nets me a +5 to AC as a reaction, meaning I could boost my AC up to 28 (30 with Shield of Faith) if need be, making me near impossible to hit; with a spell like Blur for imposed disadvantage I could well be invulnerable. The other would be a combination of Quickened Spell (spell as a bonus action, sort of like the Ancient Capstone) and Booming Blade/Greenflame blade, for a faux third attack that deals some nice extra damage. While it gets in the way of smite spells, I could still stack divine smite on it, and even if I didn't use it for that I could use it for bonus action on other spells (like Blur). Not to mention, I'd get all the spells for being a sorcerer. I'd likely go Paladin 11/Sorcerer 9 if I went this route, just for the Aura of Courage and Improved Divine Smite. Sadly, this leaves me with one less ASI, but I think it could be worth it.
Option 3: Go Warlock. The important thing to note about this option is that this leaves me with a few restrictions: My Paladin's specific deity and Oath Interpretation (being a champion of 'The Light') have him as a sort of Unholy Hunter, so if I went this route I could not go Fiend or Undying without violating my Oath and possibly falling, which would also make me unable to use Dawnbringer, since it can't be used by those who are evil. The other important thing would be that I wouldn't be able to pick Pack of the Blade, as Dawnbringer is a sentient weapon and therefore cannot be bonded with. However, if I went with Pact of the Chain, I could pick up a Pseudodragon and get advantage on all saves against magic, which when combined with my Aura of Warding (resistance to the damage of all spells) makes me nearly invulnerable to magic. In addition, if I went with the Undying Light route, I could net many useful things that mesh really well with his character concept, including resistance to radiant damage, boost to fire and radiant spell damage, a good damage cantrip for long range (Sacred Flame or Eldritch Blast), Fire Shield for a good buff, Searing Vengeance for a full-blown auto-revive that damages the enemy, the Warlock slots for smites every short rest, and even access to the invocations, like Devil's Sight or Agonizing Blast. While this one would take longer to get the benefits of, it has a nice combination of defense and offense, and provides me with a good solution to long range. However, it's also probably the weakest of the three.



Which one do you guys think would be the best route for me to take? Thanks for your input <3

[Foxhound438]

20th level ancients is really good, since it gains you 10 hp even if you're unconcious at 0, and you get your paladin stuff early (most of it's good stuff).

i like ~7 levels of sorcerer, since at 7/13 you get 7th level spell slots to cast elemental weapon with (my favorite spell tbh). If you can use tides of chaos a lot it's good, but you can only use it the number of times you cast sorcerer spells. Metamagic gives a lot of utility options, like twinning your elemental weapon onto a fighter's sword, or quickened GFB for a third attack every round (costs the equivalent of a 2nd level slot).

3, 7, or 9 in warlock is pretty good. With 3 you get darkness shenanigans and agonizing blast, while still getting your 5th level paladin spells. 7 gives you 4th level slots on a short rest (optimal smite level) as well as 4th level paladin spell options (to include death ward and banishment). a 9/11 split gives you improved divine smite and 5th level pact spells. The usefullness of those will depend on your patron, otherwise hold monster is always good. You also get access to ascendant step, which is more cool than actually useful. Oath of Ancients kind of facilitates going fey patron, you could easily say you made a deal with a powerful forest spirit to gain more magical power. Note also that if you're following adventurer's league rules the UA stuff is not allowed, since that's all playtest material.

All of that said, any of these options is about equally powerful in different roles. If you want to prioritize dpr, sorcerer is probably your best option; if you want to tank, probably straight paladin; if you want to nuke enemies with smite every fight, probably go warlock. I went warlock with my similarly built paladin, but haven't had a lot of time to test it. I like the utility it gives you.

[EKruze]

I think it's definitely worthwhile to get 11 levels in Paladin for Improved Divine Smite. After this you might consider levels in Lore Bard. This will net you Jack of All Trades, extra skills, some expertise, full casting progression and the very fun Cutting Words to utilize your Reactions.

[coredump]

I would go to lol 11 or 12 in Paly before MC.

Then worry about your choices.

[bid]

The bigger problem is both your hands are full since you have a shield. You'll have to sheath your sword every time you cast a S/M non-paladin spell.

Warlock is still nice for the short-rest smite and invocations. Pact of tome gives you access to guidance, booming blade, thorn whip and rituals. Armor of agathy can be a nasty surprise too.

Sorcerer can use subtle for S/VS spells and save you from warcaster. It gives you blur, enlarge and haste.


Paladin 9 / caster 11 gives you access to all 3rd paladin, some 6th caster and 3 warlock slots.

[Foxhound438]

i would highly advise against stopping at Pal 9, improved divine smite is too good to miss. Always on ~50% extra damage with access to 5th level spells is way better than having 1 or 2 6th level spell options.

[bid]

i would highly advise against stopping at Pal 9, improved divine smite is too good to miss. Always on ~50% extra damage with access to 5th level spells is way better than having 1 or 2 6th level spell options.
Warlock 10 patron features are more than mere damage.

It's closer to 33% (1d8+1d8+5) and you need to cancel the 2-4 extra 5d8 nova (since the extra 5th is short-rest). You're still at +0% after 10-20 hits, and 16% after 20-40 hits. Nova damage is better.


Sorcerer is another story, no nice feature at 10.

[Foxhound438]

Warlock 10 patron features are more than mere damage.

It's closer to 33% (1d8+1d8+5) and you need to cancel the 2-4 extra 5d8 nova (since the extra 5th is short-rest). You're still at +0% after 10-20 hits, and 16% after 20-40 hits. Nova damage is better.


Sorcerer is another story, no nice feature at 10.

you have 4th level warlock slots at 7, and 5th level slots will confer no extra damage over the 4th level ones. (edit: you can still nuke with smite regardless of build, and as said higher level slots will do nothing extra for you past 4) Warlock 10 features are neat but aren't as good as ids; one is prevent charm effects, which is pretty niche, one is ressistance to damage from one type of damage (subverted by magic weapons or otherwise unlikely to do anything) and the third only applies to psychic damage, which is pretty rare. Scag patron gives a ribbon.

Remember also that the op is specifically asking for OotA, which is 1-15, and and is already at Pal 8, so it's 3 more levels to an always on dpr boost or wait until post-game for a 10th level feature.



It's closer to 33% (1d8+1d8+5)


4.5/9.5=.4737

it would constitute about 33% of your damage once you have it, but it is an increase of 47.37%.

[bid]

4.5/9.5=.4737

it would constitute about 33% of your damage once you have it, but it is an increase of 47.37%.
Oh yes, brain fart.

OTOH that doesn't account for any smite (23d8). You still need a few hits to compensate for the smites from warlock slot, at which point you're doing +0% damage. After 23 hits in a day (no short rest, all smite done), you will have 23d8 from weapon, 23d8 from improved, 23d8 from smite and 23*5 from Cha. That makes at worst ~30% increase from improved while warlock gives ~5% per short rest or ~15% in a typical day. So the other warlock gains must cover the missing half.


You are assuming paladin 11 before MC, as opposed to the usual stop at level 6. Since he's so close to 3rd spells he might as well get them before MC. Once at paladin 9, you have to see what you gain for those 2 levels of +1d8 per hit (and courage):
- warlock 1 is cantrips, awakened mind and 2d8 nova damage per short rest.
- warlock 2, 2 invocations and +2d8 nova damage.
- warlock 3, tomelock's cantrip, rituals and +2d8 nova damage.
- warlock 5, ASI, 1 invocation and +2d8 nova damage.
- warlock 7, entropic ward, 1 invocation and +2d8 nova damage.
- warlock 9, ASI and 1 invocation

I think most of not all of those steps provide more utility than the damage of improved divine smite. I can't see it happening before warlock 3 and expect you will at least get to paladin 9 / warlock 7 before thinking of paladin 11.

[Foxhound438]

I think most of not all of those steps provide more utility than the damage of improved divine smite. I can't see it happening before warlock 3 and expect you will at least get to paladin 9 / warlock 7 before thinking of paladin 11.

i suppose that's a matter of preference. personally i'd probably go to warlock 3 and then to Pal 11, then go from there. utility value vs consistent no-investment damage. it would probably come down to what else you're doing with those spell slots besides nuking things, if you're doing other things the free damage might carry a bit more weight than if it's smite everything all the time.

[TheRedTemplar]

Thank you everyone for helping contribute to this so far, you've all been a huge help.

I'm definitely going to at least level 11 Paladin for Aura of Courage and Improved Divine Smite. Auto-Immunity to Fear is amazing, and an extra free d8 to all my attacks makes his current damage roll (2d8+8+any smite spells/buffs+Divine Smite) per attack. The +8 is from a combination of his strength, the dueling fighting style, and Dawnbringer, since it has a +2 on attack and damage rolls.

Bard is a very interesting idea I admit never crossed my mind, but Lore Bard is the only viable path for me. Even then, it would take to 6 levels in Lore Bard before I'd get spells that would work well for me at this point in the campaign, and the oodles of skill bonuses aren't worth it to me-we don't get much time to use them (I'm stuck with a bunch of Murderhobos). Sadly, cutting words doesn't cut it for me either-I plan on using his reaction mainly on Shield spells and Shield Master's third benefit, and 6 levels in Wild Magic Sorcerer nets him something very similar, although it's just a 1d4.

My character is also in the Adventure's League (I yearn for the day I play him at a convention...), so I guess Undying Light warlock's out. That's a real shame though. The other benefits of Warlocks are nice, but most of the really good options to pick would conflict with the paladin oath or the character himself (I value role play a lot in my games) and we don't get many chances to use strict utility due to my groups style (I'm the only sane man in a bunch of Murderhobos, unfortunately...), so while the short rest spell slots are very tempting, I'll pass on that since my DM is generous with his Long Rests.

Weighing my options here, I think I'm going to go with Paladin 12/Sorcerer 8 (the reason it's not Paladin 11/Sorcerer 9 is because he's getting 5th level slots anyways, but he wouldn't really need the 5th level sorc spells at the level he'd get them, while the extra ASI is more appealing to me). He's been around since Elemental Evil, so would it be a better idea to pick SCAG cantrips or EE spells? (Since he's in the Adventure's League, he can only pick one, sadly). I plan on taking Subtle Spell to get around the issue with being a Sword n' Board, and Quickened Spell for bonus action casting to faux-impersonate the Oath of Ancient's capstone.

[joaber]

quick booming blade, at lvl 17, 3d8 more damage at your attack using bonus action and 4d8 more if the target move. Or green flame blade. So, SCAG, definitly.

[bid]

Weighing my options here, I think I'm going to go with Paladin 12/Sorcerer 8 (the reason it's not Paladin 11/Sorcerer 9 is because he's getting 5th level slots anyways, but he wouldn't really need the 5th level sorc spells at the level he'd get them, while the extra ASI is more appealing to me). He's been around since Elemental Evil, so would it be a better idea to pick SCAG cantrips or EE spells? (Since he's in the Adventure's League, he can only pick one, sadly). I plan on taking Subtle Spell to get around the issue with being a Sword n' Board, and Quickened Spell for bonus action casting to faux-impersonate the Oath of Ancient's capstone.
Very nice, subtle takes covers for shield's somatic.

You can get 3 attacks per turn if you quicken BB / GFB, best use of that fake OotA capstone. Sword burst is also nice when surroundered.

Most EE spells are direct damage.

[coredump]

You don't need to care about Warlock 10, or whatever. Especially since you are playing AL. How long will it be until you are level 17+?, let alone 19-20....??

I don't think I would even go with Sorc at that point. You get almost nothing for the first 1-3 levels, and even after that you gain a few slots. You lose Cleansing Touch, Undying whatever, and the capstone (if you do manage to get that far)


Its not a 'bad' choice.... I just don't see it as much of an improvement. (though shield is nice....) Its pretty much a lateral move....so if you like the idea, go with it. But sticking straight Paly is good too.

[ImSAMazing]

Dude... 23 base AC cuz of magic items. You are lucky.

[Foxhound438]

i'd go 13/7 for L4 paladin spells, but that's just me. 12/8 should do fine, i'd probably recommend getting a good ranged attack option at sorc 1. chill touch is good for damage type.

You mention the bend luck ability, but i feel i should point out that costs the equivalent of a 2nd level spell slot for a very narrow use ability (not useful unless they're already 1-2 below the save/ac), so it's probably not going to see a lot of use.

[MaxWilson]

i'd go 13/7 for L4 paladin spells, but that's just me. 12/8 should do fine, i'd probably recommend getting a good ranged attack option at sorc 1. chill touch is good for damage type.

You mention the bend luck ability, but i feel i should point out that costs the equivalent of a 2nd level spell slot for a very narrow use ability (not useful unless they're already 1-2 below the save/ac), so it's probably not going to see a lot of use.

Bend Luck like giving everyone in your whole party +2 DC on all of their important spells.

[Arkhios]

Considering you're the tank/dpr for your group, I'd say Green-Flame Blade is better for dpr. Relying on a possible movement from target hit by Booming Blade (he or she could just choose to remain still at that point) isn't really that great, while Green-Flame Blade is like a magical cleave. With one attack, you basically hit and damage another one as well.
With Extra Attack and Improved Divine Smite, plus Quickened Green-Flame Blade at your level (assuming up to or below 15) you'd go your round like this:
2 x regular attack: 2d8 (regular weapon+IDS) + whatever modifiers, each
+
1 x Green-Flame Blade: 2d8 (regular weapon+IDS) + 2d8 fire damage for initial target, and 2d8+your charisma as fire damage at another target within 5 ft.

You could look it like this way: you are technically making 5 attacks (or rather in theory, landing 5 hits) per round, if you consider that each of your regular hits deal 2d8 damage + modifiers (not mentioning their types).

Booming Blade is still very nice if you have War Caster, as a movement provoked opportunity attack, which might even still trigger the extra damage for the same opportunity, unless your target chose to remain still once it got hit. (though, I'd rule that the target would continue its movement, because I don't see why would Booming Blade leave anything visible to hint for what is to happen if it continued moving.)

Lightning Lure is also rather funny cantrip to use with War Caster Opportunities. Let's say, a target moved away from you, provoking opportunity attack: you snap at it with lightning and then pull it back next to you, dealing damage. Escape attempt = failed.

[Corran]

I plan on taking Subtle Spell to get around the issue with being a Sword n' Board
Mediocre in theory, very bad in practice. If you plan multiclassing on sorcerer, swap shield master (good only if you have 2-3 heavy melee's) with warcaster (which offers you stickiness, allows you to spend your very limited sorcery points on sth that matters, and helps your awful concentration - right now you dont have much choice on concentation spells, other than maybe bless).

What is your group? What concentration spell do you usually use?

ps: Your stats used a 29 point buy system, or you made a mistake using the 27-point buy system.

[TheRedTemplar]

Mediocre in theory, very bad in practice. If you plan multiclassing on sorcerer, swap shield master (good only if you have 2-3 heavy melee's) with warcaster (which offers you stickiness, allows you to spend your very limited sorcery points on sth that matters, and helps your awful concentration - right now you dont have much choice on concentation spells, other than maybe bless).

What is your group? What concentration spell do you usually use?

ps: Your stats used a 29 point buy system, or you made a mistake using the 27-point buy system.

On his stats his wisdom should be 8, that was a mistake on my end sorry xD. I'll fix it in the original post.

The reason I'm taking Subtle spell isn't just for getting around Warcaster, it's also in case I get silenced or if I roll the option that silences you on Wild Magic. I don't need any of the other options for my character other than Quickened, and since I'm in the Adventure League I don't have the option of switching out Shield Master for War Caster - Not that I would, because all three benefits have saved my bacon more than just once. However, I do plan to get Warcaster as my next feat, since it'd be very helpful. EDIT: I forgot about the SCAG rebuild option. I've changed out Heavy Armor Master for Warcaster and changed his stats around a little bit to reflect this.

As for his group, it changes every day (since we're an AL table, some people don't always make it and some new people show up occasionally). However, generally we have the Tank/DPS (Me), a Healer/Supporter (Druid or Cleric), almost always one or two Rangers, another source of DPS (a Fighter, typically), and no arcane casters.

However, he uses many different concentration spells depending on what he needs at the moment. I've actually made a huge milage out of Protection from Good and Evil due to the disadvantage it imposes on the creatures affected, which when combined with his AC of 23, makes him hard to hit. If I'm not using that, I use Shield of Faith for the AC boost, which has mattered quite a few times on enemies he couldn't impose disadvantage on. Actually, I've never used Bless for my party: none of us really needed it.

My main reason for choosing Sorcerer is split between three things: Wild Magic, Quickened Spell and Buffs. Once I get Sorcerer I plan on mostly using his concentration slot on Blur and Protection from Good and Evil, as those two spells cover almost every monster in the game, allowing me to almost always impose disadvantage on my enemy. This, combined with the Shield spell for when they do hit and Mirror Image, makes him almost impossible to touch due to the disadvantage, the chance to target a mirror image, and the net AC of 28. In addition, Quickened will allow me to use Greenflame Blade or Booming Blade to make a strong third attack, and I'm willing to burn spell slots to fuel sorcery points. Not to mention Tides of Chaos, which can give me advantage on any attack, saving throw or check I need to make (like concentration, until I get Warcaster). My DM is also very, very much in love with the Wild Magic table, and will let me roll on it constantly to recharge Tides of Chaos, giving me multiple Wild Magic Surges and free advantage sources (can anyone say 'cheese'?).


i'd go 13/7 for L4 paladin spells, but that's just me. 12/8 should do fine, i'd probably recommend getting a good ranged attack option at sorc 1. chill touch is good for damage type

I might go with 13/7 for Lvl 4 Paladin spells, but if I ever get there I'll see then. Sorcerer definitely does offer me a decent ranged attack, so that could help offset a weakness of Paladin. Considering my character, Chill Touch may be Out Of Character for him, so I'm not going with it sadly (it's one of my favorite cantrips, but as I said I value Role Play a lot). I'll probably go with Fire Bolt or Ray of Frost. Though, with the generally supply of Rangers I get at my table, I don't think I'll need them too often.

[coredump]

I might go with 13/7 for Lvl 4 Paladin spells, but if I ever get there I'll see then. Sorcerer definitely does offer me a decent ranged attack, so that could help offset a weakness of Paladin.
In theory, but in practice, just how often has your paladin really missed out because of no ranged attack?
You are better off in melee, so unless you physically can't get to your target, you are almost always better off taking a double move, or using Misty Step, to get into melee range. As opposed to firing off some random cantrip...

My Paladin is now level 12, and IIRC he has used his javelins maybe 3 times.

Assuming you are going to Pal12 first, lets look at it from there. What does 2 levels of Sorc give you instead of 2 levels of Pal? What does 4 levels give you? 6....?? And lets remember, you are now talking level 18 PC....which is what, two years from now?

[TheRedTemplar]

In theory, but in practice, just how often has your paladin really missed out because of no ranged attack?
You are better off in melee, so unless you physically can't get to your target, you are almost always better off taking a double move, or using Misty Step, to get into melee range. As opposed to firing off some random cantrip...

My Paladin is now level 12, and IIRC he has used his javelins maybe 3 times.

Assuming you are going to Pal12 first, lets look at it from there. What does 2 levels of Sorc give you instead of 2 levels of Pal? What does 4 levels give you? 6....?? And lets remember, you are now talking level 18 PC....which is what, two years from now?

He's never missed out on anything because of no ranged attack, but as I said I wasn't taking the Sorc levels for ranged attacks in the first place. I don't need anything past a basic javelin, and I've never even used one of those. So it's more or less 'gravy' on the delicious side of 'Sorc Boosts'.

As for the other bit, I can answer that question. Let's see what I'm giving up in Paladin for Sorc levels:

1: For one level in Sorcerer, I gain Greenflame Blade/Booming Blade, access to Firebolt/Ray of Frost if I ever need, the beloved Shield Spell, Wild Magic Surges, and Tides of Chaos to force Wild Magic Surges while gaining free advantage. However, I lose out on that beast of a capstone, sadly.
2 : For two Sorc levels, I get Font of Magic and more spell slots, at the cost of an ASI.
3 : For three, I gain the blessed Metamagic, gaining the ability to use Quickened Spell for a faux-third attack with GFB/BB and Subtle Spell to use magic sneakily. In addition, I get Blur and Mirror Image, two amazing buffs that turn my guy from Tank into Panzer VIII Maus when combined with Shield. In contrast, I lose the 30' Aura buff, but for my typical party composition, that's not a big deal.
4 : Get an ASI, lose out on Pally 5th level spells. This one might hurt, but it's almost entirely offset by the Sorc levels I'm taking in the first place (A 5th level Fireball does as much as Destructive Wave, and Banishing Smite is replaced with bonus-action GFB/BB).
5 : In exchange for even more spell slots and access to third level Sorc spells (hello, Fireball and Fly), I lose an ASI. Completely worth it if you ask me.
6 : In exchange for Bend Luck and more spell slots and a Pally should have at this point, I lose out on the 'drop to 1 hit point once per day' feature. Considering the entire point of me taking these levels is to add survivability and a wider array of options for me to wipe the floor with people, I don't think I'm going to miss this that much. The 'anti-aging' thing is also very situational.
7 : Now obtaining fourth level spells, I lose out on the break enchantment ability. Dispel Magic or Remove Curse could easily take care of anything I'd ever use this on, not to mention it only works on spells, not natural enemy effects that cause the conditions I need to get rid of. On top of this, Dawnbringer can cast Lesser Restoration if it falls under one of those things. Not to big of a loss here.
8 : An ASI for Fourth Level Pally spells. Considering Sorcerer also gets Stoneskin and Ice Storm, and I already have a solid use of my bonus action, I'm just losing out on Death Ward and Aura of Life. I have better things to use my concentration on, though, and Death Ward Duty goes to the Cleric if anything.
9 : 5th Level Sorc Spells in exchange for an ASI. Most of the Sorc spells I'd get at this point fall under an 'eh'ish territory for my character, but the extra spell slots and Sorc Points could be worth it.



Also, an important thing (at least to me) to note: you said 'assuming you went to Pally 12 first'. I'm thinking about taking 4 levels in Sorc first, and then 4 in Pally, then fill out the rest with Sorc. At level 15, regardless of which class I took four levels in first, I'm going to have 1st and 2nd level Sorc Spells, metamagic, Improved Divine Smite, and Warcaster. And for a heavily armored character such as mine, Blur and Shield still hold their own quite well at this level, not to mention the near-constant flow of Wild Magic Surges and Tides of Chaos since my DM is in love with the Sorc Path Tree. All in all, I can see the argument you're making, and I understand why, but ultimately for my character I have so much more to gain from Sorc levels than from Pally levels.

[TheRedTemplar]

What would be the best way to progress with a Pally/Sorc - finish up and go to Pally 11/12/13 then fill out the rest with Sorc levels, or take 4 levels in Sorc, then 3/4/5 in Pally, then finish with Sorc?

[Corran]

Just a heads up, the bonus action from shield master does not work with the scag cantrips.

[TheRedTemplar]

Just a heads up, the bonus action from shield master does not work with the scag cantrips.

I know that full well, sadly can't take two bonus actions. I took Shield Master for the single-target Dex Save boost and the quasi-evasion effect (does wonders against dragons, I speak from experience). Though, is that worth the feat? Those two benefits are really good but I don't know if it's worth Shield Master. I have yet to fully implement the SCAG rebuild so I still have time to change that as well.

[Trancekat]

Hi,
I've created the Nova Paladin Build and ran it up to 15 (16 is the actual end level, but who cares at that point since you're not playing anymore). Also being in the Adventurer's League, I do not expect to ever level past 16 as those mods are only available at large conventions where the author/employee of WOTC runs them.

Here is the data for the Pa12/Fi3 (Please note: The bonus attack from GWM has an extra calculation that shows the chance of critting with the previous attacks in order to trigger the bonus attack).



1

Target AC:

Roll Needed:

Crit Roll Needed:

Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Attack1




20

10

20


20

6

2

5

5

5

8

0

8

1

3

4

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Str

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7663

0.1426

0.9089


8.33

5

26.25











10





37.9932

12.0043


49.9975









































2

Target AC:

Roll Needed:

Crit Roll Needed:

Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Attack2




20

10

20


20

6

2

5

5

5

8

0

8

1

2

3

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Str

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7663

0.1426

0.9089


8.33

5

26.25











10





37.9932

12.0043


49.9975









































3

Target AC:

Roll Needed:

Crit Roll Needed:

Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Surge1




20

10

20


20

6

2

5

5

4

8



1

1

2

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Str

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus














0.7663

0.1426

0.9089


8.33

5

21











10





33.9704

10.5067


44.4771









































4

Target AC:

Roll Needed:

Crit Roll Needed:

Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Surge2




20

10

20


20

6

2

5

5

4

8



1

0

1

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Str

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus














0.7000

0.0975

0.7975


8.33

5

21











10





31.0333

7.1825


38.2158









































5

Target AC:

Roll Needed:

Crit Roll Needed:

Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Haste




20

10

20


20

6

2

5

5

4

8



1

0


8


1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Str

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7000

0.0975

0.7975


8.33

5

21











10





24.0333

6.2075


30.2408









































6

Target AC:

Roll Needed:

Crit Roll Needed:

Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Bonus (GWM)




20

10

20


20

6

2

5

5

3

8



1

0


8


1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Str

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7000

0.0975

0.7975


8.33

5

15.75











10





20.3583

5.1838

0.7796

19.9114























Character Build

Human (Lucky)

Prof +5














Fighter 3

GWF

Action Surge

4x d8 Precision













Paladin 12

Divine Smite

Defensive

Vow of Emnity

ASI:Str

Extra Atk

ASI:Str

Improved Smite

ASI:GWM

Spell Lvls

3x Lvl3

3x Lvl2

4x Lvl1














Haste






Attack



Ability Score

Value

Modifier

Save










1


49.9975

Str*

20

+5

+13

HP

124








2


49.9975

Dex

10


+3

AC

19








3


44.4771

Con*

14

+2

+10

Init









4


38.2158

Int

08

-1

+2










5


30.2408

Wis

08

-1

+7










6


19.9114

Cha

16

+3

+11















Save Total

46










6 Attacks


232.8402
















On the other hand, we have the equally good (at level 15) build of Fi4/Pa6/So5



1

Target AC:

Roll Needed:


Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Attack1




20

10



20

6

2

5

5

5

8

0

8

1

3

4

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Ability Mod

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7663

0.1426

0.9089


8.33

5

26.25











10





37.9932

12.0043


49.9975









































2

Target AC:

Roll Needed:


Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Attack2




20

10



20

6

2

5

5

5

8

0

8

1

2

3

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Ability Mod

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7663

0.1426

0.9089


8.33

5

26.25











10





37.9932

12.0043


49.9975









































3

Target AC:

Roll Needed:


Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Surge1




20

10



20

6

2

5

5

4

8



1

1

2

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Ability Mod

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus














0.7663

0.1426

0.9089


8.33

5

21











10





33.9704

10.5067


44.4771









































4

Target AC:

Roll Needed:


Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Surge2




20

10



20

6

2

5

5

4

8



1

0

1

8

1

1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Ability Mod

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus














0.7000

0.0975

0.7975


8.33

5

21











10





31.0333

7.1825


38.2158









































5

Target AC:

Roll Needed:


Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Haste




20

10



20

6

2

5

5

4

8



1

0


8


1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Ability Mod

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7000

0.0975

0.7975


8.33

5

21











10





24.0333

6.2075


30.2408









































6

Target AC:

Roll Needed:


Attack 1

Crit #

Weap Die

# Weap Dice

Prof Bonus

Ability Mod

# Smt Dice

Smite Die

# Misc Dice

Misc Die

Adv/Dis

Lucky?

# Super Dice

Super Die

GWM?

GWF?

Bonus (GWM)




20

10



20

6

2

5

5

3

8



1

0


8


1




Chance to Hit *

Chance to Crit *

Total ToHit %

Total Damage

Weapon

Ability Mod

Smite Dice +

Misc Dice

Static Bonus













0.7000

0.0975

0.7975


8.33

5

15.75











10





20.3583

5.1838

0.7796

19.9114






















Character Build

Human (Lucky)

Prof +5












Fighter 4

GWF

Action Surge

Crit 19-20

ASI:Str










Paladin 6

Divine Smite

Protection

Vow of Emnity

ASI:Str

Extra Atk

Spell Lvls

2x Lvl4

3x Lvl3

3x Lvl2

4x Lvl1




Sorcerer 5

Metamagic

ASI:GWM

5 SP





Haste




















Attack



Ability Score

Value

Modifier

Save








1


49.9975

Str

20

+5

+13

HP

114






2


49.9975

Dex

10


+3

AC

19






3


44.4771

Con

14

+2

+10

Init







4


38.2158

Int

08

-1

+2








5


30.2408

Wis

08

-1

+7








6


19.9114

Cha

16

+3

+11













Save Total

46








6 Attacks


232.8402














You'll note that the nova round damage is the same for both builds: 232.8402. The difference lies in getting to level 15. You'll be doing more damage with the Fi/Pa/So build as you level to 15 than with the Fi/Pa only build due to having more spell slots with the full caster levels. At level 10, a straight Pa10 will do 95.1244 on a nova round, while a Pa6/So4 will do 108.0185 I haven't included the use of quicken spell for BB or GFB either, both only available with the So build. I can calculate it out if we go with Fi4/Pa6 too, but haven't yet. If I were to build a Nova DPS toon (and that's exactly what I've done here), I would consider this progression:




Level

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16



Class

Lucky


















Fighter

Second Wind, Saves, Armor / Weapons, GWF







Action Surge

Martial Archtype (BM)

ASI: GWM









Paladin


Divine Sense, Lay on Hands

Defensive Style, 1/2 Caster, Divine Smite

Divine Health, Sacred Oath (Veng), 1/2 Caster

ASI: Str, 1/2 Caster

Extra Attack, 1/2 Caster

1/2 Caster, Aura of Protection












Sorcerer











1/1 Caster, Sorcerous Origin (Tides of Chaos)

1/1 Caster, Font of Magic

1/1 Caster, Metamagic (Quicken, Heighten)

1/1 Caster, ASI: Str

1/1 Caster

1/1 Caster, Sorcerous Origin (Bend Luck)






















AC

14

14

15

18

18

18

19

19

19

19

24

24

24

24

24

24



HP

12

20

28

36

44

52

60

68

76

84

90

96

102

108

114

120



Max Spell

-

-

1

1

1

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

2

3

3



Spells



















1

-

-

2

3

3

4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4

4



2

-

-

-

-

-

2

2

2

2

2

3

3

3

3

3

3



3

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

2

3

3

3

3



4

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

1

2

3



5

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

1



6

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-



7

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-



8

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-



9

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-






















Str

16

16

16

16

18

18

18

18

18

18

18

18

18

20

20

20



Dex

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8



Con

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14

14



Int

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8

8



Wis

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10

10



Cha

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16

16






Hope this helps,
TK

[endur]

I would stay Paladin unless your party lacks an arcane caster. If your party lacks an arcane caster, then multiclass to sorcerer or warlock.

Also, I would drop all feats and maximize chr and then strength.

The chr bonus to saves will be huge in the second half of OOTA.

[TheRedTemplar]

Not only do we not have an arcane caster, there's no one near us with a second tier arcane caster, so we couldn't get one if we tried.

Though, the point of me taking Sorcerer wasn't for the offensive spells or buffing allies, but for the self-targeting buffs I couldn't get otherwise, quickened GFB/BB, and Wild Magic/Tides of Chaos for near constant advantage on saving throws and a steady flow of Wild Magic Surges (my Paladin Mount is a Constrictor Snake, whose attack lets it grapple and restrain anything up to a huge-sized creature, making it a reliable source of advantage on all attacks). That being said, I don't think taking Charisma Boosts just for an extra +1 to saving throws is worth it that much over Feats or Strength Boosts, considering my sources of advantage and bonuses otherwise (other members in the party can use bless, for example). And if I'm going Pally/Sorc I definitely need Warcaster to use the spells.

[Vogonjeltz]

I think the one I'd be most interested in picking would be Wild Magic, because my DM loves it and would let me spam Tides of Chaos for near constant advantage and Wild Magic rolls.

Specifically requires you to cast a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. Only really ok if you don't plan on using spell slots to cast your Paladin spells anymore. Otherwise it devalues your class.

I wouldn't waste my time multiclassing, instead just go with option #1 and remain single-classed, you'll actually benefit from that.

[TheRedTemplar]

Specifically requires you to cast a Sorcerer spell of 1st level or higher. Only really ok if you don't plan on using spell slots to cast your Paladin spells anymore. Otherwise it devalues your class.

I wouldn't waste my time multiclassing, instead just go with option #1 and remain single-classed, you'll actually benefit from that.

If I go Pally/Sorc, I wouldn't need the smite spells any longer as they use bonus actions, while GFB/BB/any spell I need at the moment could be cast as a bonus action, which takes priority to me. In addition, most of the Sorc spells would replace the Pally ones I'd use (Instead of Shield of Faith, for example, I could just use Shield, and Blur/Protection from Good and Evil turn him into the nigh-untouchable tanking god), leading to a tiny handful of buffs that I either never get to use in the first place or that aren't really needed at all in my party. Thus, I could expect to typically expend my spell slots on Sorc Buffs, Shield, and Divine Smites when I need them.

To me, personally, I feel that Pally (as much as I love it) falls off kinda hard after level 12-13, and waiting to get a capstone I'm never gonna get isn't worth the wait to me. Thus, I think the extra levels could be better spent in something else, hence the reason for Sorc. I plan to make good use of those spells and surges, trust me ;).

[TheRedTemplar]

That being said, what would be the best manner to go about building a Sword and Board Pally/Sorc? I'm dead set on this concept but would like some help in trying to make it as enjoyable as I can.

[Arkhios]

I've found it very satisfying to be able to protect my allies (because, that's what you should do as a tank, obviously). Protection Fighting Style should be the way to go. You'll want Alert feat so you can guarantee you can use the Protection even when others are surprised. You can't use reaction when you're surprised, but Alert negates that. True, you might have other uses for your reactions too, but effectively negating hits on the more squishier allies ..damn, it feels good! Do that a couple of times, and the foes get frustrated about you, and may even try to focus on you instead (mission accomplished: that's what you want as a tank!) Also, going the MC route, your auras won't grow beyond 10-feet-radius, you would want to stay near your allies anyway, if you wanted them to benefit from your auras. (Hint: they'd love to! That charisma to all saves is just awesome)

Now that you have annoyed your foes to the point where they want you dead, consider taking Tough feat. Unless your Constitution is already more than 16, then it might not be that neccessary.

You might want Shield Master feat, too, because it makes you even better with that shield of yours. It makes the shield much more than some object you carry around just to block attacks.
Besides, if you have Protection Style, taking Sentinel feat might not be the best idea, since its third benefit competes with your reaction and protection style benefit.

I'd rather not go into details of what levels and how many you "should" take, but if spell slots are not that important, you could take 2 levels in fighter for additional fighting style: either dueling or defense, depending on how often you get hit. Also, Action Surge is rather nice, as is Second Wind with Lay on Hands.

[bid]

That being said, what would be the best manner to go about building a Sword and Board Pally/Sorc? I'm dead set on this concept but would like some help in trying to make it as enjoyable as I can.

You've established you are a OotA paladin 8 with Shield Master and Warcaster. You are a Str tank and want to minimize the damage you take. Your concentration is mostly taken by blur or protection.

- with BB you can stop an extra enemy (OA reaction), you can also BB on your action but lose the bonus shove.
- do you have a friendly cleric that can share a warding bond with you?

- do you only want more caster levels for more smites?
- do you want to grab utility spells from sorcerer?
- do you have spells for upcast slots?
[non-conc sorcerer upcast are: Color Spray (1), False Life (1), Magic Missile (1), Sleep (1), Counterspell (3), Dispel Magic (3), Erupting Earth (3), Creation (5), Etherealness (7)]
[non-conc paladin upcast are: Cure Wounds (1), Aid (2), Animate Dead (3), Dispel Magic (3), Magic Circle (3)]
Aid is probably the best defensive upcast you have, enhance ability or invisibility for utility.

- did you plan for inspiring leader?
- did you plan for mobile to optimize BB?

[bid]

Now that you have annoyed your foes to the point where they want you dead, consider taking Tough feat. Unless your Constitution is already more than 16, then it might not be that neccessary.
Con+2 ASI has been confirmed many times to be strickly better than tough (since you recover more from HD). Inspiring leader is even better as it gives temporary hp to all the party and refreshes in 10 minutes.

Fighter 1 for second wind is a good plan and with lay on hands will cover for immediate needs.

[Arkhios]

Con+2 ASI has been confirmed many times to be strickly better than tough (since you recover more from HD). Inspiring leader is even better as it gives temporary hp to all the party and refreshes in 10 minutes.

Fighter 1 for second wind is a good plan and with lay on hands will cover for immediate needs.

Fair enough, though I'd still say it's about preferences. To each his own, right?

[bid]

Fair enough, though I'd still say it's about preferences. To each his own, right?
Of course, playstyle and RP concepts are more fun than optimization.

[djreynolds]

That being said, what would be the best manner to go about building a Sword and Board Pally/Sorc? I'm dead set on this concept but would like some help in trying to make it as enjoyable as I can.

1 level of rogue, or 3 levels of bard will give you expertise in athletics, coupled with shield master's bonus action you can reliably prone many opponents. Any class, IMHO, going S&B should consider shield master and grab expertise in athletics.

Also, I like the protection style but it is really party dependent. But it does give you an option, and having options in combat in nice. But I would grab the defensive style, that +1 goes along way and is always on.

Who else is in this party? Are you multiclassing with another spell casting class, bard or warlock or sorcerer? Then you will need war caster. Remember you get one reaction per turn. Sentinel lets you hit someone hitting a buddy, protection lets grant disadvantage to a buddy, and the shield spell (from sorcerer) lets you add +5 to your already high AC. I would go with the later if you multiclass with sorcerer.

You will get 5 feats, and maxing out charisma is key. Resilient con should be considered, and your DM may say you need war caster because of casting sorcerer spells with a sword and board. That's 3 ASI/feats right there at least. Sentinel may be to expensive to get. And you must consider buffing up your strength.

Pally/Sorcerer is a great combo, but IMHO, if you are not willing to grab a level of whatever for expertise in athletics I fear the bonus action from shield master will lose steam at higher levels.

I would focus on maintaining your concentration spells in combat and smiting, war caster and resilient con, max charisma, and be a party helper and just twin concentration spells for you and the other front line personnel.

[Corran]

Found an older post regarding paladorcs. I copy paste below, in the spoiler.
ps: I am told that elemental weapon and elemental afinity does not work the way I say in my post, though I think you mentioned sth about wild magic, so that wont matter. Just have in mind that my answer assumed draconic bloodline, so that may influence some of the points I am making during my reply.

Ok, lets try and put together a few things regarding this tanky paladorc.


1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.


A few thoughts about feats, dont remember if I mentioned that in my old reply.
For S&B paladorcs, warcaster is the best feat they can aim for. Being S&B with warcaster, I suggest NOT to take any of the following feats: Sentinel (as there is lack of synergy between sentinel and warcaster+BB, plus sentinel works better with polearms and you are S&B, plus you want your reaction for shield or for BB via warcaster, not to make an OA via sentinel), resilient con (con saves are good, but you already will have good con saves, and pumping them further with resilient when you already have warcaster and hence concentration covered, it is an overkill), shield master (seriously, a bad feat for any paladin, contrary to the popular belief. Especially for you, since you wont always use your attack action, and shoving an enemy with the bonus action via this feat works only when you take the attack action on your turn. But other than that, seriously, this is a bad feat for paladins and many people fall for this trap. Good to take only when you have a heavy melee group, som this feat should have a situational purple rating at paladin guides, due to the competition for feats since paladins are MAD, yet most people fail to see how this feat does not cut it - that is because as a str paladin, your athletics can be good (not great though) but your pseudo-evasion effect will be relying on a bad dex save (even with the aura in play. Or alterntively, as a de paladin, you will have a better chance to profit from the pseudo-evasion effect, but will not have a good athletics to bash enemies with).

[djreynolds]

Found an older post regarding paladorcs. I copy paste below, in the spoiler.
ps: I am told that elemental weapon and elemental afinity does not work the way I say in my post, though I think you mentioned sth about wild magic, so that wont matter. Just have in mind that my answer assumed draconic bloodline, so that may influence some of the points I am making during my reply.

Ok, lets try and put together a few things regarding this tanky paladorc.


1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.


A few thoughts about feats, dont remember if I mentioned that in my old reply.
For S&B paladorcs, warcaster is the best feat they can aim for. Being S&B with warcaster, I suggest NOT to take any of the following feats: Sentinel (as there is lack of synergy between sentinel and warcaster+BB, plus sentinel works better with polearms and you are S&B, plus you want your reaction for shield or for BB via warcaster, not to make an OA via sentinel), resilient con (con saves are good, but you already will have good con saves, and pumping them further with resilient when you already have warcaster and hence concentration covered, it is an overkill), shield master (seriously, a bad feat for any paladin, contrary to the popular belief. Especially for you, since you wont always use your attack action, and shoving an enemy with the bonus action via this feat works only when you take the attack action on your turn. But other than that, seriously, this is a bad feat for paladins and many people fall for this trap. Good to take only when you have a heavy melee group, som this feat should have a situational purple rating at paladin guides, due to the competition for feats since paladins are MAD, yet most people fail to see how this feat does not cut it - that is because as a str paladin, your athletics can be good (not great though) but your pseudo-evasion effect will be relying on a bad dex save (even with the aura in play).

Very good little guide here. Maybe its own thread worthy? Excellente!!!!
But I do love me some shield master and 1 level of rogue

[Corran]

Very good little guide here. Maybe its own thread worthy? Excellente!!!!
But I do love me some shield master and 1 level of rogue
Yeah, shield master instanty becomes better with expertise in athletics. And given that a paladin/rogue will not be able to dump either str or dex (so assuming a str13 and a good dex score - or the other way around, though there is no much point to prefer str in this case), and also assuming aura of protection after some point and expertise in athletics, then shield master becomes a lot better.

Thanks for the kind words!:smallsmile:

[TheRedTemplar]

Found an older post regarding paladorcs. I copy paste below, in the spoiler.
ps: I am told that elemental weapon and elemental afinity does not work the way I say in my post, though I think you mentioned sth about wild magic, so that wont matter. Just have in mind that my answer assumed draconic bloodline, so that may influence some of the points I am making during my reply.

Ok, lets try and put together a few things regarding this tanky paladorc.


1) good AC + blur + shield

The higher the AC, the better the synergy (less shield spamming, blur typically works better with high AC's). Playing as S&B works better with this combo, and generally works better with paladorcs, though it requires warcaster. But then again you will take warcaster either way, as it is one of the most optimal feats for tanky paladorcs. Suggestion is to play S&B, take defense as your fighting style, for an AC of 21 without any magic items (if you play with magic items, S&B becomes even better as you can additionally increase your AC by having a magical shield). Use this if you have to tank really hard, especially if you are tanking alone. Available as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4 (for warcaster), though you might want to delay it if you want to take the paladin auras first. You can make up for the lack of blur by using shield of faith (bonus action), or bless (a fantastic spell). Use shield of faith if you are taking the vast majority of the hits, use bless otherwise (especially if you have heavy hitters and no other source of bless).


2) warcaster + BB

Essentially the alternative option to sentinel. And for a paladorc it is strictly better. If you were a single class paly, sentinel (combined with polearm master) would be a no brainer. For you though, it is warcaster and BB. Make the enemies pay dearly if they want to escape your reach. The benefits of warcaster are so massively important for this build, that you simply cannot afford not to take it. If you dont, then I suggest not playing a S&B paladorc. Available as soon as paladin4/sorcerer1 (or paladin 4 if you get BB from your race), or as soon as paladin1/sorcerer4. Either way, you have it online by level 5, when BB powers up, so you are set.


3) Quickened spell

Choose this metamagic when you take your 3rd sorcerer level. Use it with: a) self-buffs (eg blur), b) debuffs (eg hold person, preferably using a higher level slot for multiple targets), c) nova (eg GFB).


4) Auras

Aura of protection is an amazing class feature. So is aura of warding. Hence since you are an OoA paladin, you want at least 7 paladin levels for those two amazing auras.



Where do all of the above leave you?

You are a paladin7/sorcerer3. You start as a paladin for the proficiencies and the starting hit points, and the only feat you have so far is warcaster (from paladin 4). If started as variant human, or if you followed a different progression, eg paladin1 -> sorcerer 4 -> paladin7) then you have more feats/ASI's, though in the latter case you are a paladin//sorcerer4 and you delayed your auras effectively by 1 level, for getting features in an order not that beneficial (unless you play in a heavily ranged group where you do all the tanking). But I will talk about leve progression in more detail later.

The point is that you are a paladin7/sorcerer3. How do you advance?
I suggest you take 2 paladin levels, to become paladin9/sorcerer3. That gets your 3rd level paladin spells. This is extremelly important if your party lacks healing. Revivify and aura of vitality is all you need. Revivify takes care of (recently) dead allies at the cost of an action (remember, you can always quicken it), and aura of vitality....


5) Extend spell + aura of vitality

Heal a total of 140 hit points at the cost of a 3rd level spell slot and one sorcery point. You have to pick extend spell as your second metamagic from the sorcerer. Superb out of combat healing. You can use it during combat too if you like, as it takes only a bonus action to heal, though I suggest sticking with another concentration spell during combat and just use your lay on hands if you really need to heal someone. Still, you have a rediculously large pool of healing to keep a whole expedition force going encounter after encounter for days without long rest (dying from exhaustion is more likely than dying from loss of hit points). At this point (paladin9/sorcerer3) you have three 3rd level spell slots and one 4th level spell slot, more than enough as using aura of vitality goes. Expect these spell slots to grow rapidly, as now we will start adding sorcerer levels.


6) Spell slots

Paladorcs typically have more spell slots than paladins. More spell slots mean more smiting (among other and potentially more optimal stuff), and more smiting means more fun! Seriously, expect the increased spell slots to come very handy.


7) Elemental weapon + elemental afinity

You are a paladin9/sorcerer3, who tanks and fights in melee. At paladin level 9, you got access to the spell elemental weapon. Since you are already sorcerer 3, it seems a waste not to take another 3 sorcerer levels (dragon, choose fire or thunder). Sorcerer 6 (dragon) gives you elemental afinity, which you can use in conjuction with elemental weapon, extra attack and quickening the appropriate cantrip (BB if you chose thunder dragon, GFB for fire). This is your damage strategy. And you will deal tons of it. Just proceed from paladin9/sorcerer3 to paladin9/sorcerer6.


8)Improved divine smite

Since you are already paladin 9, you can take 2 more paladin levels for improved divine smite (you grab aura of courage along the way). Maybe you want to go paladin11/sorcerer3 before reaching sorcerer6.


Where does that leave us?
We are a paladin11/sorcerer6.
You can grab another sorcerer level for 4th level sorcerer spells. Greater invisibility works well with any gish build, as in your case it will make you tank better (disadvantage on incoming attacks) and will increase your damage (advantage on your attacks). Consider it a better version of blur in your case.


Generally, paladin7/sorcerer3 will make you a solid tank.
Paladin9/sorcerer3 will add tons of healing (aura of vitality, revivify).
Paladin11 adds to your damage (IDS). Works with OA's as well, good for a tank.
Sorcerer6 (dragon) adds a lot to your damage (elemental afinity + elemental weapon).
Sorcerer 7 gets you some very good spells (greater invisibility is a very good and all-around use of your concentration).
If you want extra tankiness and damage, add 1 level of warlock for armor of agathys. Then cast this spell with your highest spell slot if you expect to fight in melee. Even use blade ward (cantrip) if you expect a lot of incoming hits (that means that you are not concentrating on blur or greater invisibility, and that you will not cast shield with your reaction, you want to be hit) during that round. Quicken can help you with this strategy.

The trick is to see what your party needs and then progress in levels accordingly.


A general level progression I have in mind (change it as appropiate to suit your party's needs), is:
1. Paladin1 ---> AC 20
2. Paladin2 ---> AC 21, use bless or shield of faith for concentration
3. Paladin3
4. Paladin4 ---> warcaster
5. Sorcerer1 ---> use BB or GFB instead of attack action, shield, your OA's just powered up
6. Sorcerer2
7. Sorcerer3 ---> quicken and extend, use blur as concentration (bless can stii be useful though)
8. Paladin5 ---> use attack action unless you can trigger the secondary effect of GFB
9. Paladin6 ---> aura of protection
10. Paladin7 ---> aura of warding
11. Paladin8
12. Paladin9 ---> revivify, aura of vitality, elemental weapon (save it for later, you still prefer blur or bless)
13. Sorcerer4
14. Sorcerer5
15. Sorcerer6 ---> elemental afinity + elemental weapon for when you want to deal a heck load of damage
16. Paladin10
17. Paladin11 ---> improved divine smite
18. Warlock1 ---> armor of agathys (at this point you have 6th level spell slots)
19. Sorcerer7 (greater invisibility among other things)
20. Sorcerer8 (for more sorcery points)

For levels 2-6 use shield of faith or bless as your concentration spell.
For levels 7-14, start using blur as your concentration (bless remains a good alternative). Use your spell slots for which you dont know any spells, for smiting or to upcast hold person (preferably with quicken).
At level 9 you gain aura of vitality, preferably use it between combats with extend metamagic.
At level 15 you can use elemental weapon with your concentrtion, if you want to go all offensive. Blur and bless reamin good alternatives for your concentration use. Remember, it is good to have many different options, different battles require different strategies.
Level 18 gives you armor of agathys (no concentration). Use to make the most difficult melee fights seem like a piece of cake.

Edit: I keep forgeting wrathful smite, it is an excellent 1st level paladin spell.
Edit2: If by any chance you continue playing past 15th level, you could always skip that warlock level for one extra paladin level for an extra ASI (thus allowing both str and cha to be 20), or an extra sorcerer level (for one more sorcery point and 5th level sorcerer spells once you hit level 20 - some good options in there).

Edit 3: I am still puzzled about which feat you should take if you start with variant human (be careful of the lack of darkvision). Lucky seems like the best choice. Mounted combat might be a good investment for when you get access to higher level slots (spell level start increasing dramatically fast at the second half of your career), if your DM will let you summon better mounts if you cast find steed with a higher level spell slot. And if you like mounted combat ofc.


A few thoughts about feats, dont remember if I mentioned that in my old reply.
For S&B paladorcs, warcaster is the best feat they can aim for. Being S&B with warcaster, I suggest NOT to take any of the following feats: Sentinel (as there is lack of synergy between sentinel and warcaster+BB, plus sentinel works better with polearms and you are S&B, plus you want your reaction for shield or for BB via warcaster, not to make an OA via sentinel), resilient con (con saves are good, but you already will have good con saves, and pumping them further with resilient when you already have warcaster and hence concentration covered, it is an overkill), shield master (seriously, a bad feat for any paladin, contrary to the popular belief. Especially for you, since you wont always use your attack action, and shoving an enemy with the bonus action via this feat works only when you take the attack action on your turn. But other than that, seriously, this is a bad feat for paladins and many people fall for this trap. Good to take only when you have a heavy melee group, so this feat should have a situational purple rating at paladin guides, due to the competition for feats since paladins are MAD, yet most people fail to see how this feat does not cut it - that is because as a str paladin, your athletics can be good (not great though) but your pseudo-evasion effect will be relying on a bad dex save (even with the aura in play. Or alternatively, as a dex paladin, you will have a better chance to profit from the pseudo-evasion effect, but will not have a good athletics to bash enemies with).

I finalized my SCAG Rebuild with your tips here, along with that of some of the other fine gents in this thread. Thanks for your amazing assistance my friend <3

My final character (Post SCAG rebuild) is:
Lawful Good Red Dragonborn (Paladin Oath of Devotion 5/Red Draconic Sorcerer 3).
His stats are 16/10/14/8/10/16, his HP is 67, and he has the Warcaster feat.
He has the Defense Fighting Style, a +2 Shield (The Wall of Teeth), Dwarven Plate, and access to the Shield Sorcerer Spell. He uses Protection from Good and Evil/Blur as needed and his Metamagic options are Quicken and Twin. I also have access to Divine Smite, Divine Health, Extra Attack, Lay Hands, GFB/BB, and 3rd level spell slots. His weapon is Dawnbringer, the sentient Sunsword, and his current role is still DPS/Tank.

I just took this guy for a test drive while making the rounds in OotA, and my party took a revisit to Gracklstrugh. Nothing major, we looked around town, got into a few combats.

We killed Themberchaud.

...so yeah I'd say this build turned out well. Thanks a heap to everyone for helping me out with this, I loved playing this character, and now I'm no longer the load of my group. Kudos to all of you!

[Trancekat]

He has the Defense Fighting Style, a +2 Shield (The Wall of Teeth), Dwarven Plate,

Very nice and similar to what I would have done. One question I have is where is there Dwarven Plate in AL please?

[TheRedTemplar]

Very nice and similar to what I would have done. One question I have is where is there Dwarven Plate in AL please?

The Dwarven Plate is a magical item you can obtain in Gracklstrugh (the Duergar City) in Out of the Abyss. It's worn by the Deepking Horgar Steelshadow, who also has Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a +2 Warhammer. The guy is also completely insane and powerhungry due to the madness of demons, and he's being kept watch over by a Succubus disguised as his betrothed or something that was sent by Graz'zt to keep him from regaining his sanity. Considering most parties/players where I live tend to be murderhobos, it's highly likely they'd kill him once they notice the three magic items he's wearing.

However, in my campaign, I actually managed to pull off a plan to cure his insanity (sneak into the castle under the guise of a Moonshine Delivery Service, get all the guards drunk, run off to the throne room and present the Deepking with 'five casks of our finest', then use Turn the Faithless to expose the Succubi's true form (which worked), then killed her in the surprise round, then used a Scroll of Greater Restoration and Protection from Good and Evil on the Deepking while getting a 20 on a Persuasion Roll to let him accept it). As a reward for saving the Deepking without killing him or any of his men (much to the chagrin of the muderhobos), the DM rewarded me and the party with his items anyways, and I got first pick. Guess which one I chose?