Shadowdancer and HiPS problem [rules & player help]

[Shnigda]

Hey guys, this is further to a post I made a while back about a rogue I'm playing.

Previously my DM has decided that my TWF rogue6/swashbuckler2/shadowdancer1 is too overpowered for the party (and the natural spell, wildshaping, pouncing-companioned druid is perfectly fine :smallfurious: ).

He is now trying to prevent me from using HiPS in almost all situations, saying that the shadows have to be large, dark shadows for it to work (so a small tomb with sarcophagi and 10 creatures in it doesnt have enough shadow for HiPS because there are 2 torches in the room...).

However, this obviously has annoyed me as my whole build is based around HiPS.

So my question is: Should the DM have allowed Shadowdancer in the first place? How often do other DMs ban Shadowdancer? How could I convince him that my rogue is not OP? How can I convince my DM that Shandowdancer HiPS works the way it does?

Finally: What other solution can I offer? (My thought is to offer to change the level of Shadowdancer for another class for free and perhaps ask for extra gold or a couple of extra feats or something in recompense for having to completely change the build)

Thoughts?


EDIT: I also have a backup character ready to switch to if he is completely unreasonable about the situation (an Incantrix :smallyuk: )

[Shnigda]

I will be discussing this with my DM in about 2 hours, so any input would be very helpful before then! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Just realised I should have put that as an edit on the original post, my bad...

[Jormengand]

Leave. A DM who's determined to screw you over isn't worth playing with.

[Necroticplague]

Hey guys, this is further to a post I made a while back about a rogue I'm playing.

Previously my DM has decided that my TWF rogue6/swashbuckler2/shadowdancer1 is too overpowered for the party (and the natural spell, wildshaping, pouncing-companioned druid is perfectly fine :smallfurious: ).

He is now trying to prevent me from using HiPS in almost all situations, saying that the shadows have to be large, dark shadows for it to work (so a small tomb with sarcophagi and 10 creatures in it doesnt have enough shadow for HiPS because there are 2 torches in the room...).

However, this obviously has annoyed me as my whole build is based around HiPS.

So my question is: Should the DM have allowed Shadowdancer in the first place? How often do other DMs ban Shadowdancer? How could I convince him that my rogue is not OP? How can I convince my DM that Shandowdancer HiPS works the way it does?

Finally: What other solution can I offer? (My thought is to offer to change the level of Shadowdancer for another class for free and perhaps ask for extra gold or a couple of extra feats or something in recompense for having to completely change the build)

Thoughts?


EDIT: I also have a backup character ready to switch to if he is completely unreasonable about the situation (an Incantrix :smallyuk: )

Respectively to the questions:
1.I don't see why not, it's not that potent. Actually, kinda weak, if flavorful.
2.In my experience? Never. In any situation where Shadowdancer is useful, there are things that are more powerful for less cost (the Shadow template's Shadow Blend blows HiPS out of the Water, and only has LA+2)
3.Point out that even if you can't be seen, AoEs still hit you perfectly fine, Blindsense/sight and similar completely counter your main trick, and point to even better types of stealth you aren't using (like Shadow Blend. Aberrant Wild Shape [will o wisp], point out Shadowdancer doesn't do much to expand your combat ability or your utility (most of it's class features can be got, in better version, but dipping into casting classes). Heck, just compare everything you can do to a druidic version and point out how you come up short (shadow jump vs. exalted wild shape for blink dog, HiPS vs. aberration wild shape into will o wisp, summon shadow vs. greenbound summoning just off the top of my head)
4.Point out something in the actual text

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. It does not have to be large and dark. It just has to be some kind. And you don't have to even be in it, just within 10 feet. He asks how that works? say "it's supernatural, like a druid's Wild Shape, I aint gotta explain sh**"
5.Offer to drop the class in exchange for taking the Dark template, then change Dark to Shadow at your next level up. Since It's LA1->LA2, this is a pretty reasonable progression (and I believe dark is even called out as being a lesser version of Shadow).
I think the DM is failing to counter your build, and blaming the build instead of their own cluelessness.

[Shnigda]

I know that's the go to answer in these situations in the Playground, but I would much rather not leave, as the group atmosphere is very enjoyable.

I only got HiPS at the start of this level, so we have only had 4 sessions since I have got it, so perhaps the DM is overreacting, but out of the options I gave, what would be the best to take?

[Shnigda]

Respectively to the questions:
1.I don't see why not, it's not that potent. Actually, kinda weak, if flavorful.
2.In my experience? Never. In any situation where Shadowdancer is useful, there are things that are more powerful for less cost (the Shadow template's Shadow Blend blows HiPS out of the Water, and only has LA+2)
3.Point out that even if you can't be seen, AoEs still hit you perfectly fine, Blindsense/sight and similar completely counter your main trick, and point to even better types of stealth you aren't using (like Shadow Blend. Aberrant Wild Shape [will o wisp], point out Shadowdancer doesn't do much to expand your combat ability or your utility (most of it's class features can be got, in better version, but dipping into casting classes). Heck, just compare everything you can do to a druidic version and point out how you come up short (shadow jump vs. exalted wild shape for blink dog, HiPS vs. aberration wild shape into will o wisp, summon shadow vs. greenbound summoning just off the top of my head)
4.Point out something in the actual text
It does not have to be large and dark. It just has to be some kind. And you don't have to even be in it, just within 10 feet. He asks how that works? say "it's supernatural, like a druid's Wild Shape, I aint gotta explain sh**"
5.Offer to drop the class in exchange for taking the Dark template, then change Dark to Shadow at your next level up. Since It's LA1->LA2, this is a pretty reasonable progression (and I believe dark is even called out as being a lesser version of Shadow).
I think the DM is failing to counter your build, and blaming the build instead of their own cluelessness.

Thanks, for that, good to be able to quote the druidic versions to him rather that just having some sort of abstract concept to throw at him!
In regards to him failing to counter me, he's basically only throwing undead and constructs at us right now... Most of which have DR, so I can only do 2-3 damage max per attack... I think that counts as effective countering, so nerfing other things is just overkill...

[Tohsaka Rin]

Never take a combative stance when dealing with a DM, for two reasons.

1) They'll just overrule you with rule 0.

2) It's supposed to be a shared storytelling experience. Arguing and fighting OOC isn't very productive.

Now, as for what you can do, simply calmly, plainly... Ask the DM what it is that you're doing, that somehow is over-powered compared to the rest of the party. Given that you have a Druid, you can't out-melee wild-shape, you can't out damage magic, you can't even FLANK like a Druid with a companion can.

Now, don't use this as an excuse to throw the Druid under the bus, but simply to point out that yes, a sneak attack does look like some scary damage... That you can only do once a turn. Whereas the Druid with his companion can probably do twice that, every turn, without even resorting to spells and AoEs.

...And doesn't apply to undead normally.

As an aside, how experienced is your DM? Newer or inexperienced DMs (or ones with weak systems mastery) usually fall prey to the 'Look how much damage that melee attack did to ONE GUY!' effect. With one DM I had, for the longest time, anytime I played a Rogue, out came an entire campaign of undead.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Change your build to a Daring Outlaw one that maximizes damage output? DM seems to not have a problem with high damage given the druid.

If his issue is not being able to harm you rather than the PCs' offense, just go full offense, screw it. Ideally make a caster instead, but whatever you're up for. If you want to be strong defensively, you'll have to find tricky ways to do it w/o seeming tough. High hp and fast healing from Warshaper for example. Or a psion that uses vigor to have tons of temp hp. You're getting hit a lot, so it feels like you're vulnerable. Ideally such a build has some limited abilities to immediate action out of the way or the like for the times the DM goes overboard in his power fantasies of beating up your PC and you're at risk of dying.

EDIT: There are ways to deal w/ sneak attack immunity depending on sources open. The variant in Dungeonscape to replace trap sense to do half SA damage to those immune to it (Penetrating Strike) being the simplest.

[Shnigda]

DM is fairly new, so I understand why he would be shocked to see 4 sneak attacks with craven go off on enemies in 1 round (high hide and ITWF is very helpful for this)
I have taken penetrating strike, but my DM has ruled that my 3d6+9 sneak attack damage is only 1d6 on undead etc when flanking as craven damage isn't DICE damage.
That Warshaper idea sounds interesting if I cannot come to some sort of accord with the DM. I'm going to create a post about it!

[Troacctid]

Your DM is mistaken about the mechanism by which Shadowdancers hide in plain sight. They're not literally hiding in the shadows. It doesn't work that way. The ability is fueled by a metaphysical connection with the Plane of Shadow. The reason they need to be within 10 feet of a shadow is so they can establish a link with the source of their power. That's why it's a supernatural ability, not an extraordinary ability like the Ranger version. This is explained in Tome of Magic's chapter on shadow magic.


Shadowdancers: Not all who manipulate shadow do so through intense study and arcane formulae. A rare few grow so close to darkness, they brush the edges of shadow on an instinctive level. Shadowdancers pierce the borders of the Plane of Shadow when they make use of their abilities, even if they remain ignorant of that fact.

It's implied that if you don't have enough shadow to hide in, you instinctively pull the extra shadow directly from the Plane of Shadow.

Your DM's restriction is kind of like insisting that a Paladin has to find a stable and buy her special mount there--yes, that would make sense, except it overlooks the part of the text that explicitly says it works by magic and doesn't require you to do that.

[Andezzar]

DM is fairly new, so I understand why he would be shocked to see 4 sneak attacks with craven go off on enemies in 1 round (high hide and ITWF is very helpful for this)Doesn't he know that you deal sneak attack damage as long as you flank? So just stand opposite of the druid or his animal companion and get the same 4 attacks, no hiding in plain sight or otherwise necessary. If you want your own flanking buddy, get a wand of summon monster.

If you come to an agreement that you can continue to use Shadowdancer, don't forget to take Darkstalker. Tremorsense et. al. are really annoying.


I have taken penetrating strike, but my DM has ruled that my 3d6+9 sneak attack damage is only 1d6 on undead etc when flanking as craven damage isn't DICE damage.That is indeed correct if you took the ACF from Dungeonscape. The ACF from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (Lightbringer Penetrating Strike) does not have that problem.