Warshaper Help

[Shnigda]

Hey guys, StreamoftheSky suggested in another post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476950-Shadowdancer-and-HiPS-problem-rules-amp-player-help&p=20368395#post20368395) that I create a class that goes into the Warshaper PrC. However, after a bit of searching, I haven't been able to find much in the way of help for entry to the PrC.

What would be a good combination of Race, Feats, Items and Classes to get entry into Warshaper (hopefully without too much cheese) to use it effectively?
We are at level 9 and use Pathfinder rules for feat progression, Barbarians and Dodge. (No 1-level dips for Lion Totem from Barb unfortunately...)

Any help would be much appreciated! (Or if anyone knows of a Warshaper handbook, a link would be amazing!)

[LordOfCain]

I like barbarian into bear warrior into war shaper.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hey guys, StreamoftheSky suggested in another post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476950-Shadowdancer-and-HiPS-problem-rules-amp-player-help&p=20368395#post20368395) that I create a class that goes into the Warshaper PrC. However, after a bit of searching, I haven't been able to find much in the way of help for entry to the PrC.

What would be a good combination of Race, Feats, Items and Classes to get entry into Warshaper (hopefully without too much cheese) to use it effectively?
We are at level 9 and use Pathfinder rules for feat progression, Barbarians and Dodge. (No 1-level dips for Lion Totem from Barb unfortunately...)

Any help would be much appreciated! (Or if anyone knows of a Warshaper handbook, a link would be amazing!)Since warshapers are basically just shapeshifters, check out the polymorph handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) (though note that polymorph is still restricted by alter self's size restrictions, which everyone seems to miss. Otherwise, just build on that.

As far as entries go, I would suggest either Eberron's changeling, the tibbit, or a an LA +1 divine minion (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0). These can qualify for warshaper after just four levels, so focus on taking classes that boost natural attacks. For instance, changeling racial variant rogue 1/pouncing barbarian 1/dungeoncrasher 4/warshaper 5/dungeoncrasher 2 (with whatever other ACFs you like)/totemist 2/whatever else might work well for you. Take a few feats that boost sneak attack, such as Craven, and consider some swordsage dips, as well.

[Necroticplague]

Well, LA0 Shifters and Changelings both qualify for Warshaper (Shapechanger subtype). Since Warshaper can give you a bunch of attacks, a Rogue base can be very useful (if delayed by entry due to BaB minimum). Can probably save a couple levels going Rogue->swashbuckler and pick up Daring Outlaw. On a related note, if you take the class, you should probably work out exactly what limits on Morphic Weapons are in place with the DM. Of course, a Totemist base to improve upon your natural weapons wouldn't be half bad either.

[Beheld]

(though note that polymorph is still restricted by alter self's size restrictions, which everyone seems to miss.

Is it? It's poorly written sure, but any argument that you can apply to claim that it inherits alter self size restrictions would also mean that it inherits HD restrictions.

[Red Fel]

Is it? It's poorly written sure, but any argument that you can apply to claim that it inherits alter self size restrictions would also mean that it inherits HD restrictions.

Well, not necessarily. Polymorph functions as Alter Self, except as written. And as-written, Polymorph contains its own HD restrictions. Specifically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm):

The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.

Alter Self has an HD restriction of 5. Again, specifically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):

The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level.

If Polymorph shared Alter Self's HD restriction, the "maximum of 15 HD" language would be both irrelevant and erroneous. The fact that it is there indicates a distinction from Alter Self's 5 HD limitation.

As for the size restriction, that's trickier. Alter Self limits size changes to "within one size category of your normal size[,]" whereas Polymorph says, "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine[.]" Unlike the example above, where Polymorph explicitly contradicts (by increasing) Alter Selfs HD limit, these two statements are not contradictory. Or, to put it another way: It is impossible to reach a maximum of 15 while still remaining under a maximum of 5; it is possible to have something that is within one size category, but still not smaller than Fine. The former indicates a term replacing another; the latter does not replace, it simply clarifies.

It may be intended to replace Alter Self's size restriction, but as written it does not. The HD restriction, however, is a clear example of replacement language.

[prufock]

Is it? It's poorly written sure, but any argument that you can apply to claim that it inherits alter self size restrictions would also mean that it inherits HD restrictions.
It isn't. FAQ spells it out explicitly, and Rules of the Game articles on polymorphism agree.

[Troacctid]

Quasilycanthrope (LA +1 template) is also reasonable for a melee-heavy build, since DR 10/silver is a lot of damage reduction and there are almost no monsters that bypass it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It isn't. FAQ spells it out explicitly, and Rules of the Game articles on polymorphism agree.Both of which are notorious for outright breaking the rules. RAW, you cannot change your size category by more than one via Polymorph, and nothing that the FAQ or RotG changes that, no matter what they say, nor would they even if they said, "these are changes to the rules as printed in the Player's Handbook," because they are not errata and do not have the authority to change anything at all.

[Beheld]

Well, not necessarily. Polymorph functions as Alter Self, except as written. And as-written, Polymorph contains its own HD restrictions. Specifically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm):


Alter Self has an HD restriction of 5. Again, specifically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm):


If Polymorph shared Alter Self's HD restriction, the "maximum of 15 HD" language would be both irrelevant and erroneous. The fact that it is there indicates a distinction from Alter Self's 5 HD limitation.

Except that nothing about a 15HD max restriction contradicts or replaces a 5HD restriction. You can be prevented from turning into a Titan by both restrictions, or a PyroHyrdra by only one, or a Human by neither.

So since no part of Polymorph says the 5HD restriction no longer applies, it could still apply, if you believe that you inherit anything not explicitly contradicted. Claiming that the 15HD restriction replaces the 5HD restriction is exactly as justified as saying that the No smaller than fine restriction replaces the within one size category restriction. Neither one is explicitly removed, but both are implicitly removed, you just choose to claim that one is explicitly removed because the restriction wouldn't prevent anything, but that doesn't make it explicit at all.

Saying "You can't turn into something with more than 15HD" is not explicitly saying that you can turn into something more than 5HD. It is entirely implicit.


The HD restriction, however, is a clear example of replacement language.

You invented this distinction in your own head about what counts as replacement language and what doesn't. Nothing about the Polymorph rules say that the 15HD cap replaces the 5HD cap just like nothing about the Polymorph size restrictions explicitly states that it replaces the alter self one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Except that nothing about a 15HD max restriction contradicts or replaces a 5HD restriction. You can be prevented from turning into a Titan by both restrictions, or a PyroHyrdra by only one, or a Human by neither.

So since no part of Polymorph says the 5HD restriction no longer applies, it could still apply, if you believe that you inherit anything not explicitly contradicted. Claiming that the 15HD restriction replaces the 5HD restriction is exactly as justified as saying that the No smaller than fine restriction replaces the within one size category restriction. Neither one is explicitly removed, but both are implicitly removed, you just choose to claim that one is explicitly removed because the restriction wouldn't prevent anything, but that doesn't make it explicit at all.

Saying "You can't turn into something with more than 15HD" is not explicitly saying that you can turn into something more than 5HD. It is entirely implicit.This is easily countered by the "except as noted here" language in polymorph.

Thus, your argument doesn't work.

[Telonius]

Changeling is a much better entry than Shifter. There's a very easily-missed disclaimer in Warshaper's description:


The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own (which for doppelganger and phasm warshapers is most of the time).

So if you're using Shifter to qualify, and don't otherwise take a form other than your own, the class features only turn on when you're Shifting - meaning, once a day unless you stock up on Shifter feats. For a Changeling, you can spend your whole career in a form other than your own, and not worry a bit about it.

[Red Fel]

You invented this distinction in your own head about what counts as replacement language and what doesn't. Nothing about the Polymorph rules say that the 15HD cap replaces the 5HD cap just like nothing about the Polymorph size restrictions explicitly states that it replaces the alter self one.

I assure you, as much as I would like to take personal credit for the development of the English language (which I would not) or the subject of reading comprehension and textual construction (which I would), I invented neither in my own head. They've been around far longer than I have.

I would argue that the 15 versus 5 HD distinction is replacement language, because otherwise it is pure dicta. One of the standards of construction is that language should not be included if it adds nothing. This interpretive consideration is shown when we dismiss the "fluff" language in the description of a feat or ability, for example - it adds nothing, and is therefore extraneous language. If the 15 HD limitation does not replace the 5 HD limitation, then it is extraneous to the extreme; obviously, if a form cannot exceed 5 HD, it cannot exceed 15. That is so apparent as to be a truism. The inclusion of this language, therefore, must logically suggest an increase in the limitation; otherwise, the 15 HD language serves no point whatsoever.

I am not saying that the "within one size category" language is not replaced by the "no smaller than Fine" language, however - rather, I am saying it is not as apparent. The 15 HD language seems fairly clear, to me, to replace the 5 HD. But the size language does not render its prior version obsolete in the same way. I do not understand why you seem intent on analogizing the apparent HD language with the less obvious size language.

[Beheld]

This is easily countered by the "except as noted here" language in polymorph.

Thus, your argument doesn't work.

Except that nothing in polymorph says "15 instead of 5" just like nothing in polymorph says "less than fine instead of within one size category"


I am not saying that the "within one size category" language is not replaced by the "no smaller than Fine" language, however - rather, I am saying it is not as apparent.

Uh huh, sure.


The former indicates a term replacing another; the latter does not replace, it simply clarifies.

It may be intended to replace Alter Self's size restriction, but as written it does not.

[prufock]

Both of which are notorious for outright breaking the rules. RAW, you cannot change your size category by more than one via Polymorph, and nothing that the FAQ or RotG changes that, no matter what they say, nor would they even if they said, "these are changes to the rules as printed in the Player's Handbook," because they are not errata and do not have the authority to change anything at all.
Past inaccuracy doesn't indicate present inaccuracy, and the FAQ and ROTG aren't meant to change rules, but to clarify points that are ambiguous or commonly debated.

[Red Fel]

Uh huh, sure.

Hmm. Seems you're right. Okay, let me try to reconcile those two points. I'm not saying absolutely that the size limitation in Polymorph does not override that in Alter Self the way the HD limitations seem to, but it seems to me that they do not conflict.

Now, given that this was the only section of my post with which you took issue, I'm glad to see that we agree on the rest.

[Segev]

If we are using a pedantic, strict-language reading, the way that polymorph would work is that you can not assume a form with more than 5 HD nor more than 15 HD, and that you cannot assume a form more than one size category away from your normal form nor smaller than Fine.

If we are taking the "except as noted here" in a more colloquial sense, and assume that each categorical limitation is the sole "as noted here" definition of the categorical limitations, then polymorph enables you to assume forms of up to 15 HD and of any size no smaller than Fine.

Both are valid, consistent readings of the RAW, though the second relies on inference into what is "noted here" and a realization that the addition of a restriction in size makes little sense given the nature of polymorph vs. alter self, as does a mention of a new boundary that is never going to be reached due to existing boundaries that are not removed in HD size.

You cannot, however, be consistent in your method of rule interpretation and conclude that alter self's size limitations are inherited, but that it's HD limitations are not. Equal amounts of inferred replacement applied to each category (size and HD) lead to either both inheriting, or neither, based on the text present.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I like just being a Changeling. Simple and lets you do whatever you want for classes (but you do want that BAB +4 to qualify). There's some other shapechanger races w/ no level adjustment I'm less familiar with, too.

Another method is with Wild Shape. Aside from Druid 6 entry, Ranger 5 can get in also w/ the wild shape variant (UA, it's on d20srd, too), but that's a gimped wild shape so you probably would want to go into Master of Many Forms prestige class as well. That gives you a full 20 level build altogether, but at lower levels is obviously going to be lacking...

Warshaper is only +4 Con and a tiny amount of fast healing, so you'll still be far from invincible, though the crit immunity is nice, too.

Others mentioned it, but the Bear Warrior route is another decent long term plan... Brown Bear form + Warshaper is a lot of Con, and you can do Solo's "block with your chest!" setup, using Con for various defenses. Fist of the Forest dip to get Con to AC (unarmored only, it's like monk); Steadfast Determination to replace Wis with Con for Will saves, etc...