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Megasaber4000
2016-01-31, 07:17 PM
So the're born with power but their not sorcerers.
They learn their magic but their not wizards.
What the are these guys and why when think of them see the most emo class in existence?

Anxe
2016-01-31, 07:40 PM
Wizards learn their magic through study. Sorcerers access their magic through some sort of bloodline ancestry voodoo. Psions access the innate magic that all humans possess. Demons, Devils, and Angels all get access to spell-like abilities and stuff, why shouldn't humans? Or other mortal races? That's the explanation in my campaign anyways.

Rusvul
2016-01-31, 07:40 PM
Disclaimer: This post is written from a 3.5 viewpoint, I have not thoroughly read the UA on Psionics.

Psionics and magic are fundamentally different. Psions, depending on edition and/or setting, either train their powers (like a wizard) or have them innately (like a sorcerer), sometimes both. While magic is generally very obvious (waving hands, shouting weird words, throwing sulfur powder around, etc) psionics are generally subtle- A psion must do nothing but concentrate to cast (or manifest, as it's called) their powers. Powers are the psionic version of spells, made distinct by their displays and means of use, as well as a completely different list of options to choose from.

Some psionic powers are entirely invisible, usually having a completely mental effect (shoot someone right in the mind, psionically dominate or charm them, that sort of thing) but others have a more tangible effect- Summoning sticky goo or astral constructs, making bursts of energy. Many powers have a 'display', a sensory effect that is sometimes the only clue a power has been manifested.

In 3.5, one of the major differences between psions and casters was that Psions didn't use spell slots, they had a pool of points to spend to manifest their powers. Casters, on the other hand, had spell slots to cast with.

Fluff-wise, means of manifesting varies greatly. In Forgotten Realms, psions create their own private Weave rather than using the universal one. Some people (such as Anxe) like to go with the idea of innate power, whereas others explain it as drawing more directly on the powers of the universe. Whatever the case, it is often associated with the Astral plane- Perhaps you've learned to channel starstuff the way a Cleric wields positive or negative energy? Expect table variation on this one.

Not sure where the idea of emo psions come from, though. Someone else will have to help you on that one.

Tvtyrant
2016-01-31, 07:50 PM
Psions are people with willpower so strong they rewrite reality directly, without all of the chanting, magic blood, careful memorization and divine intervention. A low level Psion might be like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeuRXO18G4Y)guy while at the upper end they play like Jessica Sorrow (http://nightside.wikia.com/wiki/Jessica_Sorrow).

Pluto!
2016-01-31, 08:10 PM
It's a Wizard, but with different rules.

Necroticplague
2016-01-31, 08:38 PM
Magic users make use of a force that exists outside of themselves. Even Sorcerers are manipulating forces outside of themselves, even if they do it instinctual. Psions, however, utilize an energy that exists within them. That's why casters have spell slots (representing quantitized amounts of energy. 1 fireball = 1 slot. ), while psions have points (representing a variable amount of power invested. 1 energy is somewhere between 1 and 20 points). In fact, in one setting, psionics worked in normally dead magic areas because of this (long story short, most magic required using 'the weave'. However, psions have an internal weave, instead of using the external one, so they still work in places where the weave isn't present).

Anonymouswizard
2016-01-31, 08:43 PM
In Dark Sun psionics can be seen as the 'natural' alternative to magic seeing as almost everything has them (although psionics was apparently not around at the dawn of the world, I'm focusing on 1e Dark Sun). Compared to magic, which comes from an outside source (life energy for Arcane, the Elemental Planes for Divine) psionics seem to come from the user/the core of the planet. They do not have to follow a code of conduct like Clerics and Druids do, and unlike Mages don't have to choose between the easy road and the moral road.

Setting wise psionics take the role arcane magic normally would, as arcane magic is all treated as black magic for a very good reason (I love Arthasian magic, and am trying to homebrew a more fluff-accurate version with gathering of life energy being important, but enough derailing).

Marlowe
2016-01-31, 08:48 PM
Psions are for people who want to use D&D to play "The Saga of the Pliocene Exile". They're a Science-Fiction class thrown into a fantasy game to confuse people.

weaseldust
2016-01-31, 09:02 PM
This link (http://www.sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/psi_powers) characterises some of the sources that probably inspired D&D psionics. It's from sci-fi, but sci-fi and fantasy were being written, published, and read mostly by the same people at the time (to some extent, they still are).

On the difference between psions and sorcerers: psionics is typically represented as stemming from something natural to humans (the mind or soul), even if only some people can realise the power, whereas a sorcerer's abilities are typically unnatural for a human (or elf, or whatever), which might be because they have something non-human in their bloodline, or because they suffered some other kind of exposure to magic.

Anonymouswizard
2016-01-31, 09:05 PM
Psions are for people who want to use D&D to play "The Saga of the Pliocene Exile". They're a Science-Fiction class thrown into a fantasy game to confuse people.

Now say that with a straight face while trying to escape the sandworm with a head-exploding power, of the dinosaur riding telepathic cannibal halflings of doom.

I guess my favourite D&D setting is science fiction.

Marlowe
2016-01-31, 09:26 PM
I never said they were the ONLY Science-Fiction thing tossed into a fantasy game to confuse people.

The Psion I just find especially funny because there's no way you can see it as anything other than; "somebody tipped Julian May into the game and didn't even bother to sand off the serial numbers."

That said, I had no idea that "Halflings", "Cannibals", "Dinosaurs" or "Doom" were specifically science-fiction concepts.

goto124
2016-01-31, 09:54 PM
Why would people choose a Wizard over a Psion?

Rusvul
2016-01-31, 10:14 PM
In 3.5, there's a bunch of reasons. Psions can only know so many spells, Wizards can have whatever spell they want in their book. Wizards and Psions cast using different mechanics, and Psions have a completely different power list from Wizards. A better comparison to draw (mechanically) is Psion vs Sorcerer- Limited spells known, lots of versatility with spells cast in any given day. Even then, they have a differing spell list and a different casting mechanic. It's a matter of preference, really. (And a matter of how many splatbooks you have available, Sorcerers and Wizards have way more support from splats than Psionic classes.)

Knaight
2016-01-31, 10:25 PM
I never said they were the ONLY Science-Fiction thing tossed into a fantasy game to confuse people.

The Psion I just find especially funny because there's no way you can see it as anything other than; "somebody tipped Julian May into the game and didn't even bother to sand off the serial numbers."

That said, I had no idea that "Halflings", "Cannibals", "Dinosaurs" or "Doom" were specifically science-fiction concepts.

They fit some of the ideas from the absolutely fantasy Deyrini series pretty well, and psionics only fits in the softest of soft sci-fi.

kraftcheese
2016-01-31, 10:27 PM
Now say that with a straight face while trying to escape the sandworm with a head-exploding power, of the dinosaur riding telepathic cannibal halflings of doom.

I guess my favourite D&D setting is science fiction.

I'm guessing Dark Sun?

kraftcheese
2016-01-31, 10:32 PM
They fit some of the ideas from the absolutely fantasy Deyrini series pretty well, and psionics only fits in the softest of soft sci-fi.
Not to mention that the idea of sci-fi and fantasy as entirely mutually exclusive genres with no cross-over hasn't always completely been the case; especially taking into account some of D&D's core inspirations...

Rater202
2016-01-31, 10:33 PM
So the're born with power but their not sorcerers.
They learn their magic but their not wizards.
What the are these guys and why when think of them see the most emo class in existence?

They're psychic.

inuyasha
2016-01-31, 10:38 PM
They're psychic.

No! Psychic (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/occultAdventures/classes/index.html) is something completely different from psionics, trust me!

5ColouredWalker
2016-01-31, 10:39 PM
Wizards spend years learning the universes cheat codes.
Sorcerers come from a bloodline that knows them instinctively and just convince the universe to do weird stuff.
Psions gave minds so powerful the can think at the universe and make it do weird stuff.

Dimers
2016-01-31, 11:38 PM
So the're born with power but their not sorcerers.
They learn their magic but their not wizards.
What the are these guys and why when think of them see the most emo class in existence?

The best in-universe explanation I've heard for psionic characters is that it's a reaction to the encroachment of the Far Realm, toughening and strengthening minds of creatures who survive aberrant energies, like a person develops antibodies when they survive a disease.

In that case, probably not born with psi powers, unless Mom hung around with freaky stuff like mind flayers and ethereal marauders and aboleths while pregnant.

In 2e, 4e and GURPS, psionic characters don't learn magic, they develop it from an internal wellspring. Nobody's going to teach them a psionic spell. 3.X is the outlier as far as that goes.

Marlowe
2016-01-31, 11:49 PM
They fit some of the ideas from the absolutely fantasy Deyrini series pretty well, and psionics only fits in the softest of soft sci-fi.

Interesting. I seem to recall a rather thought-provoking Ursula Le Guin essay that specifically called out the Deynri series as being a fairly mundane series that simply happened to include cosmetic fantasy elements, rather than being something she would consider fantasy. She even had fun rewriting a passage with a few nouns changed to turn it into a rather stuffy political procedural to demonstrate.

Anyway, Psionics in Science Fiction might be "soft", but it was still a feature in a quite a lot of SF fiction from the mid-60s onto the mid 80s. After then it seems to have fallen out of fashion. I suppose that's another reason D&D psionics seems so campy. It's out of place AND out of style.

I use "Pliocene Saga" as a reference because it's almost impossible to look at the Psionic "schools" in D&D and the psychic disciplines in the book, compare the terminology used in both, and not make the connection.

Milo v3
2016-02-01, 01:28 AM
It's basically sci-fi magic or the type of powers you see X-Men possess.


No! Psychic (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/occultAdventures/classes/index.html) is something completely different from psionics, trust me!
Admittedly, psychics (PF) are completely different to psions (3.5e). In both mechanics and flavour.

Steampunkette
2016-02-01, 01:28 AM
A Psion is a person who uses Psionic Powers within the D&D game system.

http://img08.deviantart.net/0f93/i/2012/147/b/3/damien_sandow___you__re_welcome_by_heavymetalgear-d518o1g.png

Marlowe
2016-02-01, 01:36 AM
A Psion is a person who uses Psionic Powers within the D&D game system.

http://i.imgur.com/YohXTzM.jpg

Cazero
2016-02-01, 01:47 AM
Fluff-wise, psions don't use magic. What they do have a different name for some reason.
Mechanically wise, something something Vancian spellcasting, psion are what sorcerers should have been.

Psyren
2016-02-01, 01:52 AM
Ever watch the movie "Lucy?" It's kind of like that.

Anonymouswizard
2016-02-01, 04:30 AM
I'm guessing Dark Sun?

How'd you guess? The cannibal halflings or the love of Arthasian magic?


A Psion is a person who uses Psionic Powers within the D&D game system.

http://img08.deviantart.net/0f93/i/2012/147/b/3/damien_sandow___you__re_welcome_by_heavymetalgear-d518o1g.png

Except in 2e, where they're a psionicist;1e where only wild talents exist; 3.5 where they could also be Wilders or Ardents (or Erudites, or psychic warriors, or); 4e where they could also be Ardents, Battleminds, or Monks; or 5e where they're Mystics.

1of3
2016-02-01, 05:12 AM
So the're born with power but their not sorcerers.
They learn their magic but their not wizards.


What is a wizard, but a psion with stupid chants and waving?
What is a sorcerer, but a psion without understanding?

Anonymouswizard
2016-02-01, 06:07 AM
I've got it:
-A wizard is someone who studied hard for their PhD.
-A sorcerer is someone who got their PhD through natural talent and effort.
-A warlock bribed the jury.
-A psion thinks all the intellectuals should give them a PhD.
-A wilder is too busy building a railgun in her shed.

Milo v3
2016-02-01, 06:16 AM
-A wilder is too busy building a railgun in her shed.

Nah, the wilder walked into a university angry and demanded a PhD.

And psychics are stoners who get jobs without PhD's.

Storm_Of_Snow
2016-02-01, 08:22 AM
Why would people choose a Wizard over a Psion?
Funnily enough, back in 1st edition, you'd have had better odds of your magic-user also having psychic abilities than for any other class, so you wouldn't need to choose.:smallwink:

Milo v3
2016-02-01, 08:49 AM
Why would people choose a Wizard over a Psion?

Psions are weaker than wizards (except for spell to power erudite type stuff).

NoldorForce
2016-02-01, 03:17 PM
Psionics is basically just a different flavor of supernatural powers than "standard" hermetic sorcery or what-have-you. Depending on the setting those differences in flavor might mean something, of course. However, most if not all of the relevant distinctions and superficial sci-fi trappings aren't there because a cabal of science-fiction authors wanted something different*, but instead because a bunch of late-19th-century parapsychologists (read: pseudoscientists) were trying to legitimize their studies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapsychology). It turns out that if you discard the more obvious mystical trappings involved in some supernatural edifice, it's easier** to get funding for your "scientific" studies or to pull off a related confidence trick. Mediumship in particular had become a big deal by this point, to a degree such that Arthur Conan Doyle was taken in by the movement despite the protestations of his friend Harry Houdini.

*As has been said before, the dividing line between fantasy and science fiction is extremely blurred at the best of times, and often simply doesn't exist if you look around enough. One can find elements of both in such ancient sources as Roman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_History), Japanese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_the_Bamboo_Cutter), or Polish literature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Twardowski).

**Parapsychology is nonetheless marginalized today, and relevant papers are usually published only in niche journals.

AuraTwilight
2016-02-01, 03:27 PM
A wizard is Harry Dresden. A Sorcerer is Harry Potter (Yea, I know, I know, but there's a genetic element so by D&D rules) A Psion is Jean Grey.

Elderand
2016-02-01, 03:35 PM
What is a psion? A miserable little pile of secrets stolen from someone else's head.

Squibsallotl
2016-02-01, 05:37 PM
I went to my mentor who gave me this book...called Letters To A Young Psion. Rainer Maria Rilke. He's a fabulous psion.

A fellow used to write to him and say: "I want to be a psion. Please read my mind." And Rilke says to this guy: "Don't ask me about being a psion. lf when you wake up in the morning you can think of nothing but psionics...then you're a psion."

I'm gonna say the same thing to you. If you wake up in the mornin' and you can't think of anything but psionics first...then you're supposed to be a psion.

Marlowe
2016-02-01, 09:09 PM
What is a psion? A miserable little pile of secrets stolen from someone else's head.

Who invited the vampire in?

Anonymouswizard
2016-02-01, 09:18 PM
Who invited the vampire in?

We don't like being associated with his kind. We might be always evil bloodsuckers with pale skin, trouble holding onto our humanity, incredible sexiness, and a sunlight allergy, but we have standards.

Also, psychic powers are inherently vampiry. The main difference between a psion and a vampire is the heartbeat and native genre.

Thrudd
2016-02-01, 11:13 PM
So the're born with power but their not sorcerers.
They learn their magic but their not wizards.
What the are these guys and why when think of them see the most emo class in existence?

What setting are you talking about? If you're talking about D&D 3.5, they are a class with some powers. The DM should decide how their powers make sense in the setting being used, if they even have them in their game.

I stick with 1e style, and explain magic and psionics based on how 1e classes work. Everyone has a chance to have random psionic powers which are in-born.

Powerful, genetically engineered psions of the ancient past are responsible for figuring out how the process of altering reality worked and developed the methods of training which allowed non-psionics to perform specific tasks (vancian spell casting). Wizards research and seek the recorded spells left over from this time and pass down the methods of recording and copying them. Clerics and druids access spells in ancient psychic "computers" which they believe come from a deity or nature or whatever other power. Both wizards and divine casters require great amounts of training and mental discipline, they are taught, not inherited. Current psionic people are of course unaware of their ancestors and possess nowhere near the powers of the original generation. Their powers are genetic, and can grow somewhat stronger with practice, but it is impossible to learn new powers or to grow in power beyond a point determined by their genetics.

illyahr
2016-02-01, 11:17 PM
Who invited the vampire in?

Hey, now, he's more like the classic Japanese demon king than a regular vampire.

Anyway, I view it like this:

Wizards/Sorcerers -> Bards

Druids -> Rangers

Cleric -> Paladin

Psion -> Monk (in my headcanon, anyway. Monks should be psionic)
Monks and psions train themselves to master their own body, mind, and spirit. This is represented by them focusing their willpower to gain special effects.

raygun goth
2016-02-01, 11:48 PM
Way back in ye olden dayes of spec fic - the 20s and 30s - there was no differentiation between what we'd call "science fiction" and "fantasy." They were all the same thing - so much so, that even now it's difficult to explain to folks that Lovecraft was trying to write, in context, what we'd call hard SF nowadays. This differentiation didn't happen until the late 50s and early 60s, and when it did, the burgeoning authors of science fiction simply rebuked anything that achieved an effect based on a ritual, which is what we've come to know as "psychic powers."

So, what's a psion in the context of D&D? Some mage what uses a points pool and doesn't wave their hands.

goto124
2016-02-02, 01:33 AM
A Psion is Jean Grey.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/jgreyres1_6741.jpg

Quarian Rex
2016-02-02, 01:37 AM
When I was younger I read how magic worked in an old RPG system called Rolemaster.

Arcane magic was manipulating the ambient magic that saturates the universe. It requires a lot of effort (complicated verbal and somatic gestures) and is focused through ones entire body (heavy armour and such makes it harder to channel) but there are very few restrictions on what can be done with it (many spell possibilities but little in the way of healing and such).

Divine magic was being an outlet for the nigh-unlimited power of the gods. It was relatively easy to use (gestures and prayers were simple, and the god was supplying the power so minor things like armour couldn't get in the way) but it required being in the good graces of a higher being and was limited to what the god wanted to allow the mortals access to.

Psionic magic users did not manipulate ambient magic as mages do, nor channel the power of another like clerics. They were sources of magic, much like the gods themselves, just very small gods. Since their mind was the source of their magic their head had to be uncovered (the rest of them could be armoured to the gills) but they didn't require the hand waving and mouth flapping trappings of the others, just the will to make their power manifest. As a result, their magic was often more general than the more narrow focus of the divine and more primal than the more finessed arcane.


That has stuck with me from game to game. Psions are teeny-tiny gods. I like Psions. I think that psionics in 3.5/3.P do a pretty good job of mechanically showing this interesting distinction.

Logosloki
2016-02-02, 07:00 AM
The psion uses the force of their id to expand influence from their body and into the surrounding area. They are most similar to a sorcerer, as the power is innate.

As a thought exercise I toyed with the four classes as the humours. The cleric phlegmatic, the sorcerer sanguine, the wizard choleric and the psion melancholic.

Prime32
2016-02-02, 05:59 PM
The definition of psionics in the 3.5 core rules is that they're a subset of spell-like abilities (i.e. abilities resembling spells which you don't learn, just have innately) which project the user's own power rather than manipulating the forces around them.

The psionics system proper has some more differences that result from this. Psions are more flexible in how they can use their power than wizards or sorcerers, but their effects are less complex because they don't have the benefit of a spell formula to control the energies involved, and they have trouble creating persistent effects (unless they target themselves) because psionic powers can't drawn on ambient energy to maintain themselves. You'd never see an effect like magic mouth in psionics, for instance. Likewise, metapsionic feats are cheaper to use than metamagic, but it's difficult to spam them or use multiple feats at once.


Psions are for people who want to use D&D to play "The Saga of the Pliocene Exile". They're a Science-Fiction class thrown into a fantasy game to confuse people.The reason the Vancian Magic used by D&D wizards and sorcerers doesn't resemble how magic works in any fantasy setting is because they're based on a post-apocalyptic sci-fi book series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_Earth). The techniques behind arcane and divine magic are remnants of scientific knowledge from an ancient civilisation which resembled our own.

Incidentally, the paladin class is based on a WW2 soldier who travelled back in time to fight Morgan le Fay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Hearts_and_Three_Lions).

Grod_The_Giant
2016-02-02, 07:11 PM
I've got it:
-A wizard is someone who studied hard for their PhD.
-A sorcerer is someone who got their PhD through natural talent and effort.
-A warlock bribed the jury.
-A psion thinks all the intellectuals should give them a PhD.
-A wilder is too busy building a railgun in her shed.
Nah. A psion got their PhD though natural brilliance; a sorcerer got theirs because their dad owns the university.

nedz
2016-02-02, 07:32 PM
A Psion is someone who engages in Magical thinking, only somehow it works.

Necroticplague
2016-02-02, 08:46 PM
Psion -> Monk (in my headcanon, anyway. Monks should be psionic)
Monks and psions train themselves to master their own body, mind, and spirit. This is represented by them focusing their willpower to gain special effects.

In 4e, monks are psionic.

veti
2016-02-02, 09:17 PM
What's a psion? This is (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Organiser).

Gosh, I'm old.

Tvtyrant
2016-02-03, 02:38 AM
I always wanted to play a tabletop game set inside a sentient MMO after the extinction of all of the players. Large parts of the MMO have become corrupt, and the rest is full of monsters (because it is an MMO). The players are actually NPCs who discover that the world is fake after battling end game bosses only to find out from them that they have no actual deific abilities, they just sit there being good at killing things. Eventually they discover hacking, which is tremendously stronger than the "magic" allowed by the game and use it to shore up the corrupted date files.

In that game psionics would be the hacking.

Elderand
2016-02-03, 06:31 AM
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/Elrendil/57670194_zpscuewzrdn.jpg

Psyren
2016-02-03, 10:44 AM
A miserable pile of other people's secrets.

Oh wait, we made that joke.

nedz
2016-02-03, 01:45 PM
A miserable pile of other people's secrets.

Oh wait, we made that joke.

It's all right, Psions have the Déjà Vu power.

nedz
2016-02-03, 01:48 PM
A miserable pile of other people's secrets.

Oh wait, we made that joke.

It's all right, Psions have the Déjà Vu power.

123456789

AuraTwilight
2016-02-03, 03:01 PM
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/jgreyres1_6741.jpg

Astral Seed.

Temperjoke
2016-02-03, 04:11 PM
For me, it's like The Matrix.

Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks powers are all built into the framework of the world. They follow the rules that are built into the world, the physics built into the world. Psions, on the other hand, are awakened, like Neo. Their powers break the usual rules of reality. They don't need a magic spell to fly, they can harness their will to do it. Their powers would still work in a magic dead zone, because their powers aren't based on the reality that magic operates in.

That's how I relate them anyways.