Does the Bonusdmg on Energy Powers get multiplied by Empower Power by RAW?

[Feint's End]

As discussed in this thread "Summon Monster + Empower Question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476816-Summon-Monster-Empower-question)"
Basically my arguement is that by RAW the Empower Power feat doesn't multiply the bonus dmg on energy powers granted by using cold or fire dmg (or by the favoured element feat, sonic, etc.). I do acknowledge however that this is up for debate since the feat can be read in both ways (until I stand corrected) but the stronger case can be made for no multiplication.

I personally think that it is RAI (as with spells which even got an errata for empower spell) that the bonus dmg is multiplied and in my games I rule it this way.

This thread is purely meant to discuss in which direction RAW points -> does it actually multiply the bonus dmg or doesn't it.

[charcoalninja]

From the PRD:

Empower Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.

So... There's your answer
Edit: doh! Wrong feat!

Edit 2: right feat!
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your Psionic focus. You can empower a power. All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal,

Right there. Normal fire blast deals 4d6+4 damage, empowered deals 50% more, thus increasing the added damage as well.

[Feint's End]

From the PRD:
Edit 2: right feat!
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your Psionic focus. You can empower a power. All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal,

I don't think it's as easy as that. Read the linked thread if you got time.

In my reading it focuses on the variable part which is only the 1d6 and not the additional 1 per die. You can take the second part to support the opposite (deals half again as much damage) but I think that disagrees with the previous part which specifies the variable part only. Spells needed the FAQ to clarify this but psionics never got it.

Edit: to get down to it. 1 fixed dmg per die isn't variable.

[charcoalninja]

Doesn't matter about variable. The later sentence says the spell does 50% more damage than normal. Normal fire does 4d6+4 empowered does 6d6+6 50% more.

[squiggit]

Well, what makes you read 1d6+1 as (1-6)+1 rather than (2-7)?

Seems like the most direct reading is taking it as a single expression because that's how it's written.

[Starbuck_II]

We know it is the whole damage value because magic missile is 1d4+1 and it is (1d4+1) x 1.5 that is expressed.

[Psyren]

FE - you've clearly made up your mind on how you think it should work, and are even attempting to make the argument that DSP would want it to function differently than the way Paizo has intended for some reason, when they've been lockstep with PF FAQ rulings before. Absent a direct statement from Jeremy or Andreas to the contrary, does this thread serve any purpose? Would you really change your mind no matter how many people post here agreeing with the ruling that bonus damage is multiplied too?

[grarrrg]

I do believe his argument hinges on the fact that Empower Spell reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls."

Where Empower Power reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half."

Empower Power lacks the "including bonuses" part.

So was the "including bonuses" accidentally omitted? Or purposefully omitted?

(edit: mostly just clearing potential confusion that others might have, as this is psionics and all that)

[Psyren]

I do believe his argument hinges on the fact that Empower Spell reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls."

Where Empower Power reads:
"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half."

Empower Power lacks the "including bonuses" part.

So was the "including bonuses" accidentally omitted? Or purposefully omitted?

That's because the original printing of Empower Spell also lacked that text. It was added later in the CRB errata, (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/resources) after Psionics Unleashed had already been printed, and likely in response to the FAQ linked in the previous thread.

[charcoalninja]

Also the Empower Power feat flat out says it does 50% more damage than normal and so doesn't need to spell out that bonuses matter. There's no ambiguity here, they literally said "empower makes powers deal +50% damage".

[Feint's End]

FE - you've clearly made up your mind on how you think it should work, and are even attempting to make the argument that DSP would want it to function differently than the way Paizo has intended for some reason, when they've been lockstep with PF FAQ rulings before. Absent a direct statement from Jeremy or Andreas to the contrary, does this thread serve any purpose? Would you really change your mind no matter how many people post here agreeing with the ruling that bonus damage is multiplied too?

If you read the OP carefully you would have realised that even I agree with the ruling that the bonus dmg gets multiplied. No argument there.

This thread is rather a, let's say, thought exercise. I think that RAW (and I mean the purest form of RAW ... no interpretation included) it is ambiguous the bonus dmg gets multiplied.

@others: I read it as xd6 +1 times x. The powers say it deals and additional damage per die. If you roll 6 dies you deal 6 additional dmg. It isn't a variable dmg.

The magic missile argument is a strong point to show it is highly likely RAI but doesn't really apply since it only is a spell. Spells also got this FAQ'ed while powers didn't.

As for the the damage of the power gets increased by 50%. This kind of contradicts the sentence before (the variable parts specifically). Again it shows the intend of the designers but as I said it's RAW is conflicting.

[charcoalninja]

It doesn't contradict. 1d6+1 is a variable, numerical effect just as 1d6 is a variable numerical effect.

[Feint's End]

It doesn't contradict. 1d6+1 is a variable, numerical effect just as 1d6 is a variable numerical effect.

A fixed additional value of 1 for each dice isn't variable. It's always the same therefor not variable. Yes the d6 is so it gets multiplied. The feat specifies only variable parts of the power.

As already mentioned even paizo acknowledged that there could be a misinterpretation in empower spell (even though there was more evidence it multiplies all in the core rulebook -> magic missile) and therefor they released a statement in the FAQ.
Psionics is more unclear in the book itself and doesn't have this FAQ. As I said assuming it is supposed to work like empower spell is entirely reasonable but RAW doesn't necessarily support this.

Edit: of course if you assume that the damage overall is variable then the bonus would get multiplied. All a matter of perspective.

[Artillery]

Th extra +1 per die isn't static. Its always +1 relative to the dice, but it does scale with power points used.
xd6+x is a variable numeric number, just like xd6 is.

Its also never called bonus damage. Its just additional damage.

If you spend 6pp to cast a 6d6+6 Fire Energy Ball. The 6 dmg is part of the powers normal damage and is variable with pp spent.

TLDR; the +1 is not bonus damage and is never called that in the power description, its a regular part of fire/cold energy attacks just like sonic is -1. So it still benefits from Empower power.

[Psyren]

If you read the OP carefully you would have realised that even I agree with the ruling that the bonus dmg gets multiplied. No argument there.

I did read the OP carefully, including the part where you said you personally were arguing against that very conclusion by RAW. So saying "no argument" now is a contradiction.

You also bafflingly say "the stronger case can be made for no multiplication," when said case hinges entirely on DSP throwing out Paizo errata and FAQ rulings instead of applying them to psionics. Do you have a history of DSP doing this that you can link to?



As for the the damage of the power gets increased by 50%. This kind of contradicts the sentence before (the variable parts specifically). Again it shows the intend of the designers but as I said it's RAW is conflicting.

As others have noted, the bonus becomes part of the variable. It raises both the floor and ceiling of the variable. It does not make it any less variable. Variable.

[Felyndiira]

So was the "including bonuses" accidentally omitted? Or purposefully omitted?

I don't believe that "including bonuses" was purposefully omitted. Rather, I think this is a result of Psionics taking a lot of the same wording from 3.5e, so not everything was "pathfinder-ized" correctly.

For a more interesting example, look at Quicken Power compared to Quicken Spell. Quicken Spell changes the casting time to a swift action, while Quicken Power changes it to a undefined (free?) action.

[TiaC]

"All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half."

The power does not have one effect that deals 4d6 damage and another effect that deals 4 damage. It has one effect that deals damage. This amount of damage is variable and numeric. Therefore, it is increased by one-half, +4 and all.