Tempest Domain Oath of Vengeance

[DracoKnight]

So, I'm looking to build a Minotaur character from the UA Waterborne Adventures (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf) article. I'm building him as a Tempest Cleric and Oath of Vengeance Paladin multiclass. I'm looking for suggestions as to the best way to optimize him, and how many levels to spend in Paladin, because I want the primary class to be Cleric.

My rolls were: 15, 18, 16, 14, 16, 14

[bid]

With those rolls it's too easy: Str20 Dex14 Con16 Int14 Wis16 Cha16

- paladin 2 = divine smite
- paladin 3 = vow of enmity
- paladin 5 = extra attack
- paladin 6 = aura of protection
- tempest 1 = wrath of the storm
- tempest 8 = divine strike
You might want paladin 9 for aura of vitality and elemental weapon, it's worth losing a feat and your 7th cleric.

Extra attack has best DPR, so roughly:
- pally 2
- tempest 1 (lvl3)
- pally+5=6 (lvl 7)
- tempest+7=8 (lvl 14)

Greatsword with defense or protection style if you follow the weapon-only smite ruling.

[coredump]

Get out of Paly at level 6. Elemental Weapon is all but useless to you (you will likely have a magical weapon, and you already have Hunter's Mark as a 1st level spell) and Aura of Vitality is cool.... but you are a cleric with plenty of healing, the spell is not worth 3 more levels.

Besides, if you get to 9th.... you pretty much have to stay for 11th (Improved Divine smite) and then 12 for the ASI since you are getting really MAD.

So.... stop at 6th.


If you have a DM that *really* knows the rules, *and* is a stickler for the RAW minutia.... then there are some weird rule interactions regarding Channel Divinity twice... but I don't know of anyone (even in the internet) that plays that strictly.

[Foxhound438]

If you have a DM that *really* knows the rules, *and* is a stickler for the RAW minutia.... then there are some weird rule interactions regarding Channel Divinity twice... but I don't know of anyone (even in the internet) that plays that strictly.

you would have one use of channel with which you can use any of the options, until you get multiple uses per rest from cleric, so 3+ pal/6+ cleric you have 2 uses of vow of enmity per short rest.

a final 6/14 split is probably best if you want to do this multiclass.

Elemental weapon would probably be more tempting if you were going PAM, since magic polearms are less common than swords (a lot of specific magic items in the dmg are sword only, but no polearms...)

If you do go to pal 9 PAM though, you'd eventually have 7th level slots to cast +3/+3d4 lightning/thunder weapon on it and have 3 attacks to benefit from it. However, as someone pointed out above, by the time you're pal 9 you might as well go pal 11 for that sweet improved divine smite... and it would be even more tempting with 3 attacks to get the benefit of it. So if you want to be a melee powerhouse reconsider your position on being primarily cleric, because paladin brings a lot more to the table, tbh.

[DracoKnight]

I will respond to each suggestion individually when I'm not on my phone.

Yes, Improved Divine Smite is great, but you get a better damage bump from the Cleric with Divine Strike, don't you? (1d8 @ 8th, 2d8 @ 14th)

[Corran]

My first thought was that with such good stats, you must go up to level 6 paladin, for aura of protection (and extra attack along the way).

By saying you want vengeance paladin, you mean that you plan to take at least 3 levels in paladin for the oath? If yes, going up to paladin 6 and stoping there your paladin progression seems to be the best thing to do.

Minotaur lacks a lot in power, however this race is ideal for shield masters (due to the advantage on str checks to shove creatures, and due to the horns being the best one handed weapon, with their d10 damage). That said, S&B does not play well with high str extra attacking vengeance. So, assuming you are sticking with vengeance, you have a choice, go with high str, a two hander, and GWM, or go with S&B, and attack with my horns while knocking creatures prone with my shield with advantage on my athletics? Choose your style (group composition can help you decide, for example if you have a GWMaster or a melee rogue, you might want to go with shield master).

A feat to consider taking at some point, is resilient con. Neither the paladin nor the cleric are proficient in con saves, and you will need them on you start relying heavily on your concentration spells. Actually, let me think this better. If you go with greatsword/maul, GWM and high str, then your stats will be 20str, 14dex, 15con, 14int, 16wis, 16cha, your first feat will be GWM, and your second feat can be resilient con, to even your con score (thus add on your hp) and take your con save to autosave teritory (6+ proficiency).

Also consider magic initiate (sorcerer), for cha based shocking grasp and thunderbolt strike, since your charisma will be 16 one way or the other. Maybe also witch bolt?

Starting as a paladin offers 2 more hp, starting as a cleric offers nothing of value.

[Arkhios]

Greatsword with defense or protection style if you follow the weapon-only smite ruling.

Just checking so no-one gets wrong ideas. I assume you mean protection style with a 1-handed weapon, because Protection Style works only when you have a shield.


Yes, Improved Divine Smite is great, but you get a better damage bump from the Cleric with Divine Strike, don't you? (1d8 @ 8th, 2d8 @ 14th)

You can Divine Strike only once per turn, while Improved Divine Smite has no limits. Though, I'm not trying to convince one way or another in this regard. Just checking you're aware of that.

[coredump]

you would have one use of channel with which you can use any of the options, until you get multiple uses per rest from cleric, so 3+ pal/6+ cleric you have 2 uses of vow of enmity per short rest.
Ignore my earlier statement. Either completely made up what I was thinking about, or my memory was correct, but it doesn't apply to CD.
So in either case..... I was wrong.



Elemental weapon would probably be more tempting if you were going PAM, since magic polearms are less common than swords (a lot of specific magic items in the dmg are sword only, but no polearms...)

If you do go to pal 9 PAM though, you'd eventually have 7th level slots to cast
IME home campaigns tend to have more tailored magic items show up. Sure if he was only playing AL a magic polearm is doubtful....
Second, 'eventually' is a really long time. He will have an 18th level PC by then. And still only cast it 1/day. Do you really think he still won't have a magical weapon by then?

But there are two main reasons why it is a waste.
1) It uses your concentration. Which means no Smite spells, no Aura of Vitality, no Haste, no Hunter's Mark, no Prot Good/Evil, etc etc.
2) You already have access to Magic Weapon. Yes Elemental weapon is better....but it also takes higher level slots and its not *that* much better. Certainly not worth taking 3 more levels....



Yes, Improved Divine Smite is great, but you get a better damage bump from the Cleric with Divine Strike, don't you? (1d8 @ 8th, 2d8 @ 14th)
Remember, we are talking about what to do if you are already Pal9. Which means you will never get to Cl 14. Plus, Divine Strike only works on your turn, and only for one attack. Extra Attack, OA, Bonus attacks, etc..... IDS is still useful.
Last.... we are talking 2 more levels to get IDS, and *8* more levels to get Divine Strike.

People keep making comparisons as if the PCs are just created at level 20. Even if DStrike was better than IDS, you are talking about a 9th level PC waiting until 11th level, or 17th level to benefit.

[Foxhound438]

I will respond to each suggestion individually when I'm not on my phone.

Yes, Improved Divine Smite is great, but you get a better damage bump from the Cleric with Divine Strike, don't you? (1d8 @ 8th, 2d8 @ 14th)

only with multiple attacks is IDS better (why i mentioned PAM). Like i said, look at what you want. with Pal 6/cleric 14 you get the same damage boost on your turn (2d8 vs 1d8 twice), and the divine strike doesn't suffer if you miss one attack, so you have a bit of upward correcting to do if you want to calculate your average dpr. At pal 11/cleric x with Polearm master on the other hand, you have 3 swings with advantage where you need it (vow is good), plus 3 chances to get mileage out of hunter's mark/higher level elemental weapon, giving you a potential:

2d10+1d4+6d4(elem)+3d8(rad)+3x str (average with great weap style ~64 damage on all hits, with enemy ac = 11+your attack bonus, you hit 75% of the time with advantage from vow, so about 48 dpr before smites is what you would expect)
or
2d10+1d4+3d6(mark)+3d8+3x str (i'll skip the math here, it's a bit less but allows for a magic weapon to be used; need a +2 to beat 5th level elemental weap, can't beat L7 elemental weap without some kind of hazerawn-teir polearm)

with 14 in war cleric s&b dueling style you have
2d8+2d6(mark)+2xstr+4(fs) for about 30, and with ~75% hit chance after advantage that adjusts to 22.5

BUT WAIT you say, there's still that divine strike!

with 2 attacks of 75% accuracy, 93.75% of turns you'll get it, so up that 22.5 to ~31 expectable dpr. There's also your war priest feature if you ever miss the first two attacks, so you'll most likely on any given turn deal a minimum ~26 damage on a single swing.

So you basically get the option of higher no-investment dpr or higher AC with a shield with more spells. Now that my long explanation of the intricacies of the math is done, you can make a more informed decision. Neither option is strictly better, but know what the exact difference is.