need help with my lvl 8 paladin

[molbs]

Hi everyone!

Im going to start playing a level 8 oathbreaker, he is going dex. The stats he started with where (8/16/15/9/11/14) and i bumped Cha to 16 for lvl 4 because Auro of protection/Hatred. However if unsure if i should go Sentinel or up Dex to 20 for my lvl 8 ASI, i wont be able to start with half plate so going with sentinel would net me one less 1 then if i go with 20 dex (untill i can aford half plate). What should i do? is sentinel worth it without reach weapons? is 18 AC enought to tank at lvl 8? (im going to pick dueling and use a shield)

[Citan]

Hi!

Tough choice indeed. :)
I would myself favor the 20 DEX because I'd like having a +1 on every attack I make. But it's more a matter of taste and role. If you know you will probably be near a melee friend (or protecting a caster) most of the time, Sentinel will be the best choice. AND if you succeed on this opportunity attack, you can smite on it which can be great.

Also, whatever your medium armor, you can not add more than +2 from your DEX, so having 18 or 20 doesn't matter here.

Hence your choice boils down between "protector role" and "slightly better base chance to hit".

EDIT: There is something I don't understand in your initial post. You're talking about "upping DEX to 20". But you say your starting stats are 8/16/15/9/11/14 so 16 DEX and 14 CHA. If you spend the first ASI on upping CHA, your DEX is still 16 right? In which case I would say upping DEX is a higher priority.
Since anyways your CHA will probably not be enough to use offensive spells on a regular basis, you will use your slots on smite, buff and heal.
If you agree on this (not using spellcasting for offense), then as tempting as it is to up the CHA for the additional damage, it's basically the only benefit.

Hence it would be better to up DEX with the first ASI, then going Sentinel at 8 so your concept is online and viable.

If, on the contrary, you want to use spells for offense, then you need DEX and CHA as high as possible, then drop the idea of Sentinel and up DEX and CHA every chance you get (with DEX first obviously).

[Arkhios]

Also, whatever your medium armor, you can not add more than +2 from your DEX, so having 18 or 20 doesn't matter here.

That is, except without taking Medium Armor Master -feat.

However the case, did you take the feat or not, you shouldn't worry about the maximum dexterity allowed to AC. You can still benefit from the full bonus for numerous other things, which obviously include your attacks and damage (both melee and occasional ranged), as well as with initiative, dexterity saving throws (which you're not proficient with as a paladin; not from class anyway), all kinds of acrobatic, stealthy, or other legerdemain activities (if you're inclined towards a roguish character, you might want proficiency in thieves' tools). Btw, if you take the feat I mentioned, you could benefit from stealth even in half plate!

Oh, and you can increase your AC by 2 with shield of faith. With Half-plate, Dex 16+, Medium Armor Master and a shield, you can still reach AC 22 without magical equipment. :)

Edit: You didn't mention what race you were using, or whether that stat line includes racial modifiers. Telling those details would help us help you even more.

For example, if you're playing variant human, you could use your bonus feat for taking Medium Armor Master -feat at first level, if getting AC as high as possible as soon as possible is the main priority, and get AC as high as 19 right away (without shield of faith),
or you could take Resilient -feat, to increase your Con by 1 and to get proficiency with Constitution saving throws, which are very vital for your buffs, which most of the time depend on Concentration, and concentration checks are Constitution saving throws.

[PoeticDwarf]

Hi everyone!

Im going to start playing a level 8 oathbreaker, he is going dex. The stats he started with where (8/16/15/9/11/14) and i bumped Cha to 16 for lvl 4 because Auro of protection/Hatred. However if unsure if i should go Sentinel or up Dex to 20 for my lvl 8 ASI, i wont be able to start with half plate so going with sentinel would net me one less 1 then if i go with 20 dex (untill i can aford half plate). What should i do? is sentinel worth it without reach weapons? is 18 AC enought to tank at lvl 8? (im going to pick dueling and use a shield)

18AC is pretty good with normal starting money. Although and level 8 monsters will hit you often. With 15 con (+ resillent / racial) you are a nice tank (lay on hands)

[Citan]

That is, except without taking Medium Armor Master -feat.

I did not speak about the Medium Armor Feat because considering the concept of OP, his starting stats and the fact he goes S&B, it was not the best application of ASI to do (I would have said differently if OP had wanted to orient towards sneakiness though). ;)

[molbs]

Thanks for the replys ;D

Ofcourse, i forgot to add that im a high elf (i know its not optimal, but i had to be one for a couple of story reasons) so i got +2 in DEX, so my stats were 8/18/15/9/11/14, before i added +2 Cha, which is why lvl 8 could bump me to 20 DEX. Medium Armor Mastery is something i was looking at, but i felt that sentinel would benefit my group more (the other guys are a fighter/warlock multiclass, bard and a dragon sorc) and the notion of stealth plate awsome :D i will not have proficiency in neither stealth or acrobatics (which kinda sucks) due to my backstory, i think the value of MAM would diminish somewhat. The reason i find this choice so though is that a sentinel character can draw alot of hits and with 18 AC (12+4+2(shield), and later when half plate 15+2+2 for 19 AC) might get me killed, but i guess i can use shield of faith if i feel i get hit to much (instead of concentrating on bless).

And since i might want to use some offensive spells, bumping Cha might be a prio. As an oathbraker i get some really good channel Divinity stuff as AOE fighten and control Undead.

[Corran]

Generally paladins work better with polearm master, with the exception of vengeance who can work as well with a greatsword or maul. That is because of how you can apply improved divine smite and divine smites to your bonus action attack with the butt end, but also because of how you can utilise your reactions making attacks with extra d8's on them.

For the above reason, and also because you get heavy armor proficiecy (possible movement penalty), str builds are more optimal than dex builds for paladins.

Sentinel also combines really well with all the above.

Especially for oathbreakers, due to aura of hate (but as well as IDS and DS), and dreadful aspect, high str combined with polearm master and sentinel is the most optimised you can get. Notice how dreadfull aspect synergizes well with sentinel, keeping enemies close to you and thus denying them the possibility to make additional saves against your fear effect, once they are affected.

Also, oathbreakers, due to their channel divinity and oath spells, require a very good charisma, even more so than any other paladin.

Because of those reasons, high elf is a very bad choice for oathbreaker.

That said, high elf oathbreaker is a concept I really like, and with that in mind I will try to give advice on your build.
The first advice is refluff a halfelf as a high elf and use my above suggestions. If that is out of the question, then I suggest the following.

One way to go is still using a str build, despite having the ''wrong'' stat increases from your race.
STR 15, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15, with racial increses DEX pumps up to 10 and INT pumps up to 9. Take polearm master and use your other ASI to increase STR and CHA by 1, and by level 8 your stats will be 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 9 INT, WIS 10, CHA 16. With polearm master you will be attacking for d10+6 from your first attack, another d10+6 with your extra attack, and another d4+6 with the butt end attack (polearm master feat) using your bonus action. You will also get a reactionary attack every time an enemy enters your increased reach of 10 feet (limited once per turn) for another d10+6 damage. Action, bonus action, reaction, all covered. And once you hit level 11 and get IDS, you will add an extra d8 on every one of these attacks (3d8 extra damage per round, and +d8 damage with every reactionary attack). And at no cost. At level 12 you will take sentinel, which will essentially make you a better tank than any S&B build, and which works better with polearm master than any other fighting style. Sentinel will also add more ways with which you can use your reaction for damage, and it will play perfectly with your dreadful aspect, as you will be more able to keep your enemies inside the radius that does not convey additional saves every turn against your aura. With reach from the polearm, you will also be able to attack frightened by your CD creatures from 10 feet, and they wont be able to approach you since they are frightened. Last but not least, with such high str you can wear a full plate and have a better AC than the dex build you are considering and at no movement cost (remember, an oathbreaker has to be relatively mobile, as the frightened thing can be more effective when you are not restricted to 20 movement per round.

I was going to offer a suggestion about a dex build, but frankly, I think it wont do nearly as good as what I suggested above.

My advice, is to play the build I suggested, and refluff a halfelf as a high elf. If you go with halfelf, you will have better stats, and in this case take polearm master first, then sentinel, and then further improve your stats. If you go with high elf and follow my suggested build, dont bother picking a scag cantrip as it will be suboptimal in every single case, including when fighting creatures vulnerable to thunder or fire, in which case you have elemental weapon, pick a cantrip for utility instead (mage hand, minor illusion, etc).

For concentration spell use bless or wrathful smite (I analyse the strategy in a following post). Use aura of vitality only out of combat, and avoid shield of faith unless you are defending against a horde (in which case you might still prefer bless due to your +5 concentration). Elemental weapon for situational uses (vulnerable to elemental type of damage enemies).

Bada bing, bada boom.

[molbs]

Generally paladins work better with polearm master, with the exception of vengeance who can work as well with a greatsword or maul. That is because of how you can apply improved divine smite and divine smites to your bonus action attack with the butt end, but also because of how you can utilise your reactions making attacks with extra d8's on them.

For the above reason, and also because you get heavy armor proficiecy (possible movement penalty), str builds are more optimal than dex builds for paladins.

Sentinel also combines really well with all the above.

Especially for oathbreakers, due to aura of hate (but as well as IDS and DS), and dreadful aspect, high str combined with polearm master and sentinel is the most optimised you can get. Notice how dreadfull aspect synergizes well with sentinel, keeping enemies close to you and thus denying them the possibility to make additional saves against your fear effect, once they are affected.

Also, oathbreakers, due to their channel divinity and oath spells, require a very good charisma, even more so than any other paladin.

Because of those reasons, high elf is a very bad choice for oathbreaker.

That said, high elf oathbreaker is a concept I really like, and with that in mind I will try to give advice on your build.
The first advice is refluff a halfelf as a high elf and use my above suggestions. If that is out of the question, then I suggest the following.

One way to go is still using a str build, despite having the ''wrong'' stat increases from your race.
STR 15, DEX 8, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15, with racial increses DEX pumps up to 10 and INT pumps up to 9. Take polearm master and use your other ASI to increase STR and CHA by 1, and by level 8 your stats will be 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 9 INT, WIS 10, CHA 16. With polearm master you will be attacking for d10+6 from your first attack, another d10+6 with your extra attack, and another d4+6 with the butt end attack (polearm master feat) using your bonus action. You will also get a reactionary attack every time an enemy enters your increased reach of 10 feet (limited once per turn) for another d10+6 damage. Action, bonus action, reaction, all covered. And once you hit level 11 and get IDS, you will add an extra d8 on every one of these attacks (3d8 extra damage per round, and +d8 damage with every reactionary attack). And at no cost. At level 12 you will take sentinel, which will essentially make you a better tank than any S&B build, and which works better with polearm master than any other fighting style. Sentinel will also add more ways with which you can use your reaction for damage, and it will play perfectly with your dreadful aspect, as you will be more able to keep your enemies inside the radius that does not convey additional saves every turn against your aura. With reach from the polearm, you will also be able to attack frightened by your CD creatures from 10 feet, and they wont be able to approach you since they are frightened. Last but not least, with such high str you can wear a full plate and have a better AC than the dex build you are considering and at no movement cost (remember, an oathbreaker has to be relatively mobile, as the frightened thing can be more effective when you are not restricted to 20 movement per round.

I was going to offer a suggestion about a dex build, but frankly, I think it wont do nearly as good as what I suggested above.

My advice, is to play the build I suggested, and refluff a halfelf as a high elf. If you go with halfelf, you will have better stats, and in this case take polearm master first, then sentinel, and then further improve your stats. If you go with high elf and follow my suggested build, dont bother picking a scag cantrip as it will be suboptimal in every single case, including when fighting creatures vulnerable to thunder or fire, in which case you have elemental weapon, pick a cantrip for utility instead (mage hand, minor illusion, etc).

For concentration spell use bless. Use aura of vitality only out of combat, and avoid shield of faith unless you are defending against a horde (in which case you might still prefer bless due to your +5 concentration). Elemental weapon for situational uses (vulnerable to elemental type of damage enemies).

Bada bing, bada boom.

sounds bad ass, the only problem is that my to hit would be a bit bad, but i guess i cant expect better with an sub optimal build, allways wanted to try out polarm master anyways. should i take two handed fighting or should i get +1 AC? as fighting style. I would like to refluff to an half elf, but the way my DM and i have set up my backstory it requires me to have lived for 500 years which is way to long for a half elf. And the character sort of allready met the party which makes it hard to change race (when i died last session i wanted to play another class and we ended the session on cliffhanger with the party meeting my char (naked with a loin cloth), but i wanted to change class, which the DM is find with, but both of us felt it be weird if i changed race).

[Corran]

sounds bad ass, the only problem is that my to hit would be a bit bad, but i guess i cant expect better with an sub optimal build, allways wanted to try out polarm master anyways. should i take two handed fighting or should i get +1 AC? as fighting style
Polearm master does not give you a +1 str. Still, it is maybe the best feat for a paladin, especially for an oathbreaker paladin.

Go with GWF if your DM allows rerolls on the extra d8's from IDS and DS. If he does not, take defense.

[molbs]

Polearm master does not give you a +1 str. Still, it is maybe the best feat for a paladin, especially for an oathbreaker paladin.

Go with GWF if your DM allows rerolls on the extra d8's from IDS and DS. If he does not, take defense.

yeah i saw that i misread your post. Thank you for the build, i think i will use it,

[Corran]

Combat strategy:

If you have a round to prepare before combat, cast bless on you and 2 more allies. Then enter combat and use dreadful aspect on the first round.

If you have no time to cast bless prior to combat, then during your first round you use your action for dreadful aspect, and you use your bonus action to cast wrathful smite. On round two you step up to whatever made the save against your dreadful aspect and hit it with a full round of attacks (including the butt end attack). Due to wrathful smite it makes a wis save and if it fails, it is frigtened as well. And once it is frightened, it can only remove it by spending his its action to make wis skill checks at a disadvantage because frightened against your DC. Seriously, wrathful smite is a very good concentration spell. And it fits your theme and your action economy. You are a very scary guy indeed, sir.

So, if you have time to prepare, you use bless. If not, you use wrathful smite instead. And you always go with dreadful aspect at the first round of combat (unless you are figthing sth that is immune to fear).


Edit: By refluffing a halfelf as a high elf, I mean have your character be considered an elf for all intends and purposes, but use the halfelf's features. That way by level 8 your stats will be 16 STR, 8 DEX, 16 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 18 CHA with halfelf, instead of 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 9 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA with elf. You also gain 2 extra skills instead of the cantrip (which will mostly be for flavour, as you cannot actively use it for combat). There is also a high elf halfelf variant in the SCAG book. Refluffing of course demands some suspension of disbelief, but for elves and halfelves it can work just fine. I just wanted to make sure you got the point of what I meant by refluffing.