Unearthed Arcana February: Psionics!

[Steampunkette]

https://mobile.twitter.com/mikemearls/status/693252595968663556

Come on, Wizards! Post it, already!

F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Consarn it, now you've got me f5ing.

I would also like to bet a nonexistent fiver that it's not actually psionics. Any takers?

[mephnick]

I would also like to bet a nonexistent fiver that it's not actually psionics. Any takers?

Hopefully not, there's already a magic system.

Oh right, psionics isn't magic. I forgot.

[Ralanr]

Damn it...you got me excited.

[Belac93]

Here it is! (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/psionics-and-mystic-–-take-two)

[mephnick]

Here it is! (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/psionics-and-mystic-–-take-two)

Some of these disciplines seem really strong. Like "why would I ever not dip mystic" strong.

Celerity is basically a free 5ft move increase, advantage on initiative checks and spend a point here and there to never be surprised. Add that to Mind Master's Expertise and a couple good free cantrips and that's a hell of a 1 level dip.

[8wGremlin]

Some of these disciplines seem really strong. Like "why would I ever not dip mystic" strong.

Celerity is basically a free 5ft move increase, advantage on initiative checks and spend a point here and there to never be surprised. Add that to Mind Master's Expertise and a couple good free cantrips and that's a hell of a 1 level dip.

Yeah very strong...

1st level - Awakened Mind = Telepathy 120', Int save 1d8 Psychic damage cantrip, + 2 skills (with expertise)

[Ralanr]

Some of these disciplines seem really strong. Like "why would I ever not dip mystic" strong.

Celerity is basically a free 5ft move increase, advantage on initiative checks and spend a point here and there to never be surprised. Add that to Mind Master's Expertise and a couple good free cantrips and that's a hell of a 1 level dip.

Didn't we theorize that the reason the Mystic is so overloaded is because they jammed most of their abilities in the early levels so we can get an idea of how they play?

[Oramac]

Some of these disciplines seem really strong. Like "why would I ever not dip mystic" strong.

Celerity is basically a free 5ft move increase, advantage on initiative checks and spend a point here and there to never be surprised. Add that to Mind Master's Expertise and a couple good free cantrips and that's a hell of a 1 level dip.

Yep. Not to mention, The Psionic Weapon thing basically means you'll never miss a weapon attack, since even a successful save still deals half damage.

Pair that with a GWF Vengeance Paladin using max level Divine Smites and there's a ton of guaranteed damage.

EDIT: and if Smites stack with Lethal Strike, Holy Balls is that gonna be broken. (though I strongly suspect they do not stack)

EDIT2: now that I think about it, how would the GWF -5/+10 thing work against a Dex save? Give the enemy a +5 on the save, I guess?

EDIT3: And with Strength of Mind, your Paladin suddenly has Con save proficiency all the time, without a Feat.

(can y'all tell I love my Paladins?)

[8wGremlin]

Yep. Not to mention, The Psionic Weapon thing basically means you'll never miss a weapon attack, since even a successful save still deals half damage.

EDIT2: now that I think about it, how would the GWF -5/+10 thing work against a Dex save?


Not sure GWF works:

Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.

you don't HIT, thus you can't add the damage. It's semantics of the language, that might get in the way of this working. - I would imagine better minds than me will say if this works.

if it does than you can also apply it to Sharpshooter.

[MaxWilson]

Yep. Not to mention, The Psionic Weapon thing basically means you'll never miss a weapon attack, since even a successful save still deals half damage.

Now everybody can stop griping about Bladesingers with AC 28 being overpowered. Rock, meet paper. :)

[Ralanr]

Now everybody can stop griping about Bladesingers with AC 28 being overpowered. Rock, meet paper. :)

Well...doesn't help the mundane classes much...

[EvilAnagram]

Well...doesn't help the mundane classes much...

Barbarian Grappler can still have fun.

[Oramac]

Not sure GWF works:

Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a - 5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.

you don't HIT, thus you can't add the damage. It's semantics of the language, that might get in the way of this working. - I would imagine better minds than me will say if this works.

if it does than you can also apply it to Sharpshooter.

True enough, but even if that doesn't work, you still have Smites and Lethal Strike, plus the GWF extra attack on a Nat 20. PLUS the extra Paladin attack at level 5. With enough spell slots, that's still a boatload of damage in one turn.

EDIT: and you can still reroll 1's and 2's, though again, like the Smites, I doubt that will apply to Lethal Strike either.

[Ralanr]

Barbarian Grappler can still have fun.

Well I can't deny that.

I like how they kept the ability to swap saving throw proficiency but forces it on their strong save rather than their weak save.

Blade meld is beautiful for infiltration/weapon smuggling.

[Oramac]

Here's another interesting quirk with the Psionic Weapon Discipline.

The Concentration part says: "...it becomes a magic weapon with a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls..."

However, if Ethereal Weapon is not considered an attack, it would completely defeat the purpose of the Concentration part of the Discipline.

[Xethik]

I'm simultaneously quite excited about these changes and a little frustrated. I think a lot of the changes are for the better, but the class is pretty loaded for quick and easy dips still. Maybe a bit less so than before but still just really strong. Lethal Strikes is just bonkers point->damage efficiency.

Disciplines being available for any order is a great change, but hurts my silly Lurk conversion/homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?475217-5e-Lurk-Mystic-Subclass-Psychic-Rogue-Lurk-conversion-PEACH). Lethal Stike is like 3 times as efficient as the equivalent ability I added and balanced around... I guess gutting Sneak Attack to much lower damage is step 1. Anyways, tooons of damage from Lethal Strike and it more or less caps off at 5. Which is scary.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Come on magic of incarnum (psicarnum option), daddy needs a destruction ray!

[Flashy]

It is at least much improved from its first appearance. Things are a touch more spread out, and the talents have replaced that whole garbage "Attack Intelligence as AC thing" with saving throw, which is all to the good.

The disciplines could definitely stand to be evened out though. Broken Will from the Conquering Mind discipline is basically 1 round Dominate Person and Psychic Grip is an improved Hold Monster, both available at 1st level.

Edit: I also don't love that the Awakened Mystic's 3rd level feature is essentially identical to the Knowledge Cleric's 17th level feature.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Damn no psicarnum... Siiigh... :p

First overview: It looks better but it lost its uniqueness. Now it kinda looks like the Wizard chassis and you put the spell point variant on it... Hopefully the abilities make up for it.

[8wGremlin]

It is at least much improved from its first appearance. Things are a touch more spread out, and the talents have replaced that whole garbage "Attack Intelligence as AC thing" with saving throw, which is all to the good.

The disciplines could definitely stand to be evened out though. Broken Will from the Conquering Mind discipline is basically 1 round Dominate Person and Psychic Grip is an improved Hold Monster, both available at 1st level.

Edit: I also don't love that the Awakened Mystic's 3rd level feature is essentially identical to the Knowledge Cleric's 17th level feature.

You don't have the PP required to use them though.

[hacksnake]

Here's another interesting quirk with the Psionic Weapon Discipline.

The Concentration part says: "...it becomes a magic weapon with a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls..."

However, if Ethereal Weapon is not considered an attack, it would completely defeat the purpose of the Concentration part of the Discipline.

Ethereal Weapon is an attack so the +1 damage becomes part of the 'normal damage for the attack'. You still make a damage roll. The +1 to hit is meaningless.

Ethereal Weapon, as far as I can tell, does not 'hit'. So things like GWM -5/+10 (GWF), Divine Smite, etc which say 'when you hit a creature' don't work. The rerolling 1s, 2s from GWF works as far as I can tell.

I think the way it works is the wording on Ethereal Weapon is a specific rule overriding the general rule "Making an Attack" from the PHB. "hits" are part of the generic roll and are clearly defined by a criteria around AC & the result of an attack roll.

EDIT: why is it an attack? "The next attack you make with the weapon..." explicitly states you are making an attack. The rest of the text overrules what "making an attack" means in this context (no attack roll, therefore no 'hit', saving throw, rules about damage / effects).; wrong abbv above GWM vs. GWF.

[Citan]

Didn't we theorize that the reason the Mystic is so overloaded is because they jammed most of their abilities in the early levels so we can get an idea of how they play?
Hi!
Yeah you're very true, it was the shared conclusion of the thread discussing the first iteration.

And, it seems some feedback have gotten to their ears, considering for example that the Mind Thrust has become much more reasonable (usual "cantrip" with push effect), same with "Action Surge" copycat which became a one-turn concentration free Haste.

With that said, even considering that some disciplines will get reallocated to higher levels, some are simply too strong, both in their effect and their ridiculous cost. If their activation cost was made x2 or even x3-4 for some it would be better.

As is, many features are strong, many too strong, many OP.

OK
Surge of Health: very good but once/short rest.

Strong:
lvl 3 automatic THP. Even the Warlock must cast False Life (= use action) to get this.
Energy Immunity: very strong.
Psychic Parry: same. Ok, it uses reaction, but +6 seems really strong for such a small price. Was very close to the "too strong" imo.

Too Strong
Celerity focus (advantage on Initiative = best dip for many classes).
Seize the Initiative (cheap +10 to ensure you'll always be first).
Psychic Backlash: disadvantage for attacker AND psychic damage for only 1 point? While I love thorn builds, this seems to tramp many "reaction" defensive abilities. Either remove damage or up the cost.
Lethal Strike: welcome psychic Pally.

Etc etc.
In fact, I see really well how WoTC is trapped. Basically, they tried to "mimic" existing spells and put them in a variety of disciplines, generally putting on them the same cost in psi points as would a classic spell cast with the variant spellcasting points.

They did that because they either felt that "spell slots" were not fitting the fluff, or because they wanted to create a class that would be a martial/cast gish with great versatility, or both.
(It's my guess anyways, but maybe it's just because I encountered the same problem with my homebrew. ^^)

The thing is, it would work great if everyone else, spellcasters first and foremost, were also on the "spell points".
As is, the much better resource consumption efficiency, added to the large variety of abilities, make them tip-toe hard on many other martials and half-casters.

With that said, balance aside, many good ideas here. ;) Waiting for the next installment now... ^^

[pwykersotz]

I love the form but hate the implementation. Having things like armor proficiency tied to a feature that can go away is way too... fiddly. As has been pointed out, the class is still to front loaded also. I do love the form like I said, but I think the disciplines might work better as subclasses. I also love the whole body /mind theme they have going on.

So a mixed bag overall.

[Oramac]

Ethereal Weapon is an attack so the +1 damage becomes part of the 'normal damage for the attack'. You still make a damage roll. The +1 to hit is meaningless.

Ethereal Weapon, as far as I can tell, does not 'hit'. So things like GWM -5/+10 (GWF), Divine Smite, etc which say 'when you hit a creature' don't work. The rerolling 1s, 2s from GWF works as far as I can tell.

I think the way it works is the wording on Ethereal Weapon is a specific rule overriding the general rule "Making an Attack" from the PHB. "hits" are part of the generic roll and are clearly defined by a criteria around AC & the result of an attack roll.

EDIT: why is it an attack? "The next attack you make with the weapon..." explicitly states you are making an attack. The rest of the text overrules what "making an attack" means in this context (no attack roll, therefore no 'hit', saving throw, rules about damage / effects).; wrong abbv above GWM vs. GWF.

It is somewhat on the confusing side. Hopefully WOTC clarifies this before it goes to print in anything official.

[Ralanr]

-snip-

Ahh. I see your point.

I think third eye might be too strong for a lesser discipline. Blindsense at level 1 seems crazy powerful, though it does allow a player to make blind characters (which is nice for fluff).

It also seems like the awakened mind can function as a psuedo-healer skill monkey. Not sure if that's good (since the bard can do that, but both of them can choose to not heal and be viable because of how versatile they are).

It must be quite the act to balance versatility. Must be an expensive showing.

[Flashy]

You don't have the PP required to use them though.

You know, that's a great point I hadn't noticed.

Honestly, on the whole the Awakened archetype seems fairly reasonable, most of the remaining shenanigans seem to be Immortal related.

[hacksnake]

It is somewhat on the confusing side. Hopefully WOTC clarifies this before it goes to print in anything official.

Yeah... the way I'm reading it I think it has bad economy (bonus action + action + psi point) to let you deal sub-optimal damage to high AC/low Dex opponents instead of outright missing.

I think a more advantageous use case might be something like applying deadly poisons to such creatures... anything that adds additional riders / side effects to the attack. Blend with warlock (or some other means) to Hex them into disadvantage on the Dex saves EDIT: I should learn to double check before posting.

[Oramac]

Yeah... the way I'm reading it I think it has bad economy (bonus action + action + psi point) to let you deal sub-optimal damage to high AC/low Dex opponents instead of outright missing.

I think a more advantageous use case might be something like applying deadly poisons to such creatures... anything that adds additional riders / side effects to the attack. Blend with warlock (or some other means) to Hex them into disadvantage on the Dex saves.

Yea. I'd honestly say the whole ability needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

If it IS an attack, it's fairly OP in terms of damage dealt, especially with multiclassing. If it is NOT an attack, it's severely underpowered, both in damage and economy.

[dickerson76]

Yeah... the way I'm reading it I think it has bad economy (bonus action + action + psi point) to let you deal sub-optimal damage to high AC/low Dex opponents instead of outright missing.

I think a more advantageous use case might be something like applying deadly poisons to such creatures... anything that adds additional riders / side effects to the attack. Blend with warlock (or some other means) to Hex them into disadvantage on the Dex saves.

Hex works on Ability checks, not saving throws.

[Foxhound438]

starting to read through it, and uh, it's still overpowered...

First thing that REALLY caught my eye as too strong is psionic weapon; it gives you free +1 weapons from level 1, divine smite (but with bigger dice), and for 5 points (equivalent to a 3rd level spell slot) you get a +3 WEAPON, EQUAL IN POWER TO SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPONS IN EXISTENCE.

[Oramac]

you get a +3 WEAPON, EQUAL IN POWER TO SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPONS IN EXISTENCE.

You technically can't use that feature until level 5, since you wouldn't have a high enough Psi Maximum until that level (assuming I'm reading the ability right).

Though to be fair, that's still incredibly OP.

[hacksnake]

Hex works on Ability checks, not saving throws.

Thanks, I didn't even double check the spell. Wonder if there's any useful synergy here to take advantage of.

[Theodoxus]

IMO, Celerity is too powerful as written for a Lesser discipline. I'd make it Greater - just to avoid the level dipping mentioned above.

The other thing I'd do would make a drawback for all the Disciplines while Focused. Perhaps for Celerity, you have Disad on Wisdom checks and saves (your mind is moving too fast to notice fine details).

If there's a not-insignificant drawback to having/using psionics, I'm less concerned with power creep.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

starting to read through it, and uh, it's still overpowered...

First thing that REALLY caught my eye as too strong is psionic weapon; it gives you free +1 weapons from level 1, divine smite (but with bigger dice), and for 5 points (equivalent to a 3rd level spell slot) you get a +3 WEAPON, EQUAL IN POWER TO SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPONS IN EXISTENCE.

Casters in 5e are already OP, so it seems like this is par for the course.

These guys just get to do it earlier than expected (around level 5 to 8).

[Foxhound438]

You technically can't use that feature until level 5, since you wouldn't have a high enough Psi Maximum until that level (assuming I'm reading the ability right).

Though to be fair, that's still incredibly OP.


Casters in 5e are already OP, so it seems like this is par for the course.

These guys just get to do it earlier than expected (around level 5 to 8).



5th level is where you would reasonably expect to see +1 weapons coming out, and 7th level is where any other full caster with "magic weapon" would have access to the 4th level slots required for a +2 weapon, and 11th level before actually having the fuel for the +3 effect.

[Flashy]

IMO, Celerity is too powerful as written for a Lesser discipline. I'd make it Greater - just to avoid the level dipping mentioned above.

The other thing I'd do would make a drawback for all the Disciplines while Focused. Perhaps for Celerity, you have Disad on Wisdom checks and saves (your mind is moving too fast to notice fine details).

If there's a not-insignificant drawback to having/using psionics, I'm less concerned with power creep.

Short of a 5 level dip I'm not really sure you're getting all that much out of it. All you're picking up from a 1 level dip for Celerity is martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency, a single cantrip, +5 feet of movement speed, advantage on initiative checks, and the option to take two bonus action dashes per long rest. You can't actually use Surge of Action (*eyeroll*) until 5th level because of the Psi Limit.

I'm not saying it isn't a good dip, but it isn't brokenly overpowered.

[Foxhound438]

I'm not saying it isn't a good dip, but it isn't brokenly overpowered.

certainly behind fighter-2 dips.

[Oramac]

5th level is where you would reasonably expect to see +1 weapons coming out, and 7th level is where any other full caster with "magic weapon" would have access to the 4th level slots required for a +2 weapon, and 11th level before actually having the fuel for the +3 effect.

We're not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that you can't get the +3 weapon at 1st level.

Even getting it at 5th is still extremely OP.

[Temperjoke]

You know, if you wanted to make a One Piece adventure, Psionics does a good job for Haki, make more lycanthropes for Zoan devil fruit users...



We're not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that you can't get the +3 weapon at 1st level.

Even getting it at 5th is still extremely OP.

It's a bit OP, but at the same time, that's a chunk of your Psi points to do it, so maybe the design problem is more in how many Psi points are available to you at each of the levels?

[Foxhound438]

We're not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that you can't get the +3 weapon at 1st level.

Even getting it at 5th is still extremely OP.

i already knew you can't get it at level one, it's still an issue that needs to be raised.

[Theodoxus]

Short of a 5 level dip I'm not really sure you're getting all that much out of it. All you're picking up from a 1 level dip for Celerity is martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency, a single cantrip, +5 feet of movement speed, advantage on initiative checks, and the option to take two bonus action dashes per long rest. You can't actually use Surge of Action (*eyeroll*) until 5th level because of the Psi Limit.

I'm not saying it isn't a good dip, but it isn't brokenly overpowered.

So, you're getting a feat+ (martial weapons) a feat (heavy armor), a third of a feat (1 cantrip), half a feat (mobility), and a 7th level Barbarian feature (advantage on Initative). All for a single level dip.

And you can swap out the martial weapons and armor for extra skills and expertise, if you'd rather.

Yeah, I'd kinda push that into nearly 'must have' - heck a Rogue 1/Cleric (Knowledge) 1/OotA 1 has 10 skills (before race), 5 of which are expertised. Go Bard 2 to another skill and expertise... And your character isn't really weak! (Though very MAD. I will certainly grant you that.) But skillmonkeys who really want to encompass the spectrum and be good at it, will be MAD anyway...

I guess the big thing that bugs is giving away 7th level ability at 1st. This seems a common theme with the Mystic... that's the power creep that's easily fixable.

[Flashy]

So, you're getting a feat+ (martial weapons) a feat (heavy armor), a third of a feat (1 cantrip), half a feat (mobility), and a 7th level Barbarian feature (advantage on Initative). All for a single level dip.
I still don't think you're really getting so terribly much more from this than you'd be getting from other popular dips. All the martial dips available grant martial weapons, several grant heavy armor if you start with them, and the rest of the features add up to a sort of half monk/half rogue setup. Yes that's a 7th level barbarian feature, but it's not really a very powerful one. From a strict game balance perspective I don't really have a problem with allowing someone a 1 level dip for advantage on initiative rolls. [/QUOTE]


And you can swap out the martial weapons and armor for extra skills and expertise, if you'd rather.

Not if you want Celerity. The disciplines are subclass restricted.


I guess the big thing that bugs is giving away 7th level ability at 1st. This seems a common theme with the Mystic... that's the power creep that's easily fixable.

I completely agree with you about this aspect of the problem. The high level abilities at low levels are super irritating. It makes it feel like the Mystic is sapping the uniqueness of other classes, even when it's not influencing combat balance terribly hard. The Awakened 3 feature is almost identical to Knowledge Cleric 17, which just shouldn't happen.

[Xethik]

Not if you want Celerity. The disciplines are subclass restricted.

Not true in this revision. You just get bonus HP if below half when using effects of a related discipline.

[Flashy]

Not true in this revision. You just get bonus HP if below half when using effects of a related discipline.

You're super right, I did not read that section closely enough. Disregard.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

5th level is where you would reasonably expect to see +1 weapons coming out, and 7th level is where any other full caster with "magic weapon" would have access to the 4th level slots required for a +2 weapon, and 11th level before actually having the fuel for the +3 effect.

Magic weapons aren't assumed in this game.

Plus I'm not just talking about in battle. Casters are OP in the WORLD of D&D, which includes more than just battle.

The ways martials keep up is if the DM Mary Sue their character.

[Citan]

certainly behind fighter-2 dips.
Well, to be fair you should compare to the lvl 1 Fighter dip.
In which case Psionic brings much more to the table.

Even considering the 2-level dip, Psionic may just be better for a good bunch of builds. Having advantage on Initiative is not a light thing after all.
(Well, technically the Assassin should not need it if he gets surprise attack anyways, but for any class there are many ways to use it good).

Did not realize there was (unless I missed something) absolutely no restriction on how often a Psionic can change and reactivate Psychic Focus during a day.
This makes some lvl1 abilities WAY OP.
Ex Mind Vault Psychic Focus: you're now, with only a lvl 1, better than any pure Bard or multiclass at versatility.
Because, well, you can change a proficiency every 6 seconds (let's say 12 if you consider a Psionic has to swap current focus with a different discipline). Outside of combat, it means one can cover 90% of skill checks unless very bad stats.
It will be only from lvl 6 onwards and lvl 11 further than Bard / Rogue / multiclass (without Psionic) will be better in some skills.

\o/

[Xethik]

You're super right, I did not read that section closely enough. Disregard.

I wouldn't have noticed if they had not been explicit in the preview post for the PDF on the Wizards site. No worries.

[weaseldust]

5th level is where you would reasonably expect to see +1 weapons coming out, and 7th level is where any other full caster with "magic weapon" would have access to the 4th level slots required for a +2 weapon, and 11th level before actually having the fuel for the +3 effect.

It's really only a +2 weapon the Mystic gets, because they get +1 for free. And the +1 for free is just a replacement for not having a fighting style (+2 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls are already fighting styles, so +1/+1 is comparable). I agree that +2 weapons should probably come in at level 7. That said, a 2nd-level spell (Magic Weapon) cast from a 4th-level slot isn't designed to be equal to a 4th-level spell, so it's reasonable that the same ability could be given earlier. Especially since Elemental Weapon (+1/+d4, and a new damage type) is only 3rd-level and is almost as good.

I wonder if the designers expect a Mystic to prioritise intelligence, so some of the weapon-related features are to make up for not having level-appropriate strength/dexterity for a melee character. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation at the moment, but that could change if they are made more reliant on intelligence. It is also worth noting that the Mystic doesn't have Extra Attack like a Paladin and doesn't have Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians like a Cleric, so it makes sense that their other melee-boosting abilities have to be a bit better to compensate.

[8wGremlin]

"You must be at least 5th level to learn a greater discipline" - hidden in the the blocks of text, this changes some things.

[Steampunkette]

The whole +3 weapon being OP thing is just... so wrong.

Sure, a +3 weapon is really nice. But lets compare it to another 3rd level spell (5th caster level): Haste.

Is a +3 to attack and damage better than a +2 to AC, Advantage on Dex Saves, and an extra Attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object every single turn for 1 minute?

I daresay it is not. Both require concentration, so you can use one or the other.

And yes, it lasts longer and doesn't have the 1 round of uselessness at the end of it, but if combat routinely lasts longer than 1 minute you're already in trouble...

[Belac93]

A multiclass assassin/mystic would be awesome. Take celerity, psionic weapon, and blade meld/night eyes.

[pwykersotz]

The whole +3 weapon being OP thing is just... so wrong.

Sure, a +3 weapon is really nice. But lets compare it to another 3rd level spell (5th caster level): Haste.

Is a +3 to attack and damage better than a +2 to AC, Advantage on Dex Saves, and an extra Attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object every single turn for 1 minute?

I daresay it is not. Both require concentration, so you can use one or the other.

And yes, it lasts longer and doesn't have the 1 round of uselessness at the end of it, but if combat routinely lasts longer than 1 minute you're already in trouble...

I'm gonna call apples and oranges. One is accuracy and damage. The other is defense and mobility. Both relevant in combat, but in entirely different circles.

[Flashy]

The whole +3 weapon being OP thing is just... so wrong.

Sure, a +3 weapon is really nice. But lets compare it to another 3rd level spell (5th caster level): Haste.

Is a +3 to attack and damage better than a +2 to AC, Advantage on Dex Saves, and an extra Attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object every single turn for 1 minute?

I daresay it is not. Both require concentration, so you can use one or the other.

And yes, it lasts longer and doesn't have the 1 round of uselessness at the end of it, but if combat routinely lasts longer than 1 minute you're already in trouble...

I think a +3 weapon from a spell at 5th level is a pretty reasonable thing to complain about, considering Magic Weapon has to be cast through a 6th level spell slot to give the same effect. The idea that you can get a bonus from a spell at 5th level that was previously only available at 11th level is pretty worrying.

[MrStabby]

I think a +3 weapon from a spell at 5th level is a pretty reasonable thing to complain about, considering Magic Weapon has to be cast through a 6th level spell slot to give the same effect. The idea that you can get a bonus from a spell at 5th level that was previously only available at 11th level is pretty worrying.

I dunno really. I would agree if casting magic weapon from a 6th level slot was common.If that represented an on par use of resources then this would be overpowered but I don't see many people cast that spell. Saying it is better than a use of an action that is poor enough to rarely be used doesn't say a huge amount about its quality.

[Flashy]

I dunno really. I would agree if casting magic weapon from a 6th level slot was common.If that represented an on par use of resources then this would be overpowered but I don't see many people cast that spell. Saying it is better than a use of an action that is poor enough to rarely be used doesn't say a huge amount about its quality.

For sure. I should clarify, I'm not really convinced that it's definitely overpowered, I just think it's something to keep an eye on since it does seem to represent some pretty clear cut power creep. Whether that's super bad or not is a question to be answered through play testing. I think it's reasonable to worry about it.

[Foxhound438]

The whole +3 weapon being OP thing is just... so wrong.

Sure, a +3 weapon is really nice. But lets compare it to another 3rd level spell (5th caster level): Haste.

Is a +3 to attack and damage better than a +2 to AC, Advantage on Dex Saves, and an extra Attack, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object every single turn for 1 minute?

I daresay it is not. Both require concentration, so you can use one or the other.

And yes, it lasts longer and doesn't have the 1 round of uselessness at the end of it, but if combat routinely lasts longer than 1 minute you're already in trouble...

if you go PAM fighter 15/psi 5 you'd have 4 attacks, all getting +3 damage, so yes i'd say that's potentially on-par with the damage boost of one more attack from haste, which would be about 11 damage and doesn't give bonus to attack rolls. Sure if you only look at what the class does on its own it's not that great but multiclassing is where half of everything broken comes from.

[Steampunkette]

I'm gonna call apples and oranges. One is accuracy and damage. The other is defense and mobility. Both relevant in combat, but in entirely different circles.

+3 to attack and damage is nice. Making an extra attack, for free, is better. Especially with the extra defensive benefits of Haste.

More hits means more Psi Smites.


I think a +3 weapon from a spell at 5th level is a pretty reasonable thing to complain about, considering Magic Weapon has to be cast through a 6th level spell slot to give the same effect. The idea that you can get a bonus from a spell at 5th level that was previously only available at 11th level is pretty worrying.

Every caster class gets to do different things at different levels. It's part of what defines them and separates them from each other. Meanwhile this caster can't do... well... Most anything a Wizard can do. They lose tons of versatility. Even Warlocks have more options.

[Steampunkette]

if you go PAM fighter 15/psi 5 you'd have 4 attacks, all getting +3 damage, so yes i'd say that's potentially on-par with the damage boost of one more attack from haste, which would be about 11 damage and doesn't give bonus to attack rolls. Sure if you only look at what the class does on its own it's not that great but multiclassing is where half of everything broken comes from.

If you're a level 20 character without at least a +2 weapon but WITH Pole Arm Mastery, then I question your DM's decision making process.

If you do have access to +2 weapons by 20 (which you probably should unless it's a low-magic world) then it's actually giving you a +1 to attack and damage versus Haste's various bonuses.

Magic Weapons are as common at tables as Multiclassing and Feats (both optional systems)

[Kane0]

Overall I reckon the Mystic is neat, but needs a lot more polish. Its too frontloaded, it steps on other classes toes too much and some abilities are wonky or misplaced. The fact that you gain access to some options before you have the resources to use them is a bit of a worry too, especially if there later comes options (eg a feat that grants extra power points) to make them accessible earlier than intended. The subclassing at level 1 seems to be a big part of the frontloadedness.

[8wGremlin]

Overall I reckon the Mystic is neat, but needs a lot more polish. Its too frontloaded, it steps on other classes toes too much and some abilities are wonky or misplaced. The fact that you gain access to some options before you have the resources to use them is a bit of a worry too, especially if there later comes options (eg a feat that grants extra power points) to make them accessible earlier than intended. The subclassing at level 1 seems to be a big part of the frontloadedness.

The Frontloaded-ness is a problem.
if you look at a lot of the classes there abilities don't really come on line until they hit 3rd, I think something like this needs to happen.

If some of the Domain powers weren't picked up until 3rd, that would be a start.

[brainface]

I may have missed it, but it looks like they really lack any blastiness at all, beyond cantrips? Psionic weapon seems to be the only discipline that actually deals damage, otherwise you're just using control, defensive, or exploration abilities. It seems like they really need a pyrokinesis or mind bullets discipline. (Also, the Order of the Immortal doesn't gain extra attack, right?)

[treecko]

I may have missed it, but it looks like they really lack any blastiness at all, beyond cantrips? Psionic weapon seems to be the only discipline that actually deals damage, otherwise you're just using control, defensive, or exploration abilities. It seems like they really need a pyrokinesis or mind bullets discipline. (Also, the Order of the Immortal doesn't gain extra attack, right?)

No, they don't. And I think you're got the reason why psionics are pretty balanced, form my point of view. They have strong abilities but no damage to back it up. With that fancy +3 weapon, they're only attacking once per turn unless they unload 5 point every time they want to attack a second time. Their attack cantrips are worse than wizard attack cantrips. However. the issue comes with multiclassing, where they make a far too strong dip due to their sheer versatility. I would argue that a single classed psionic is well balanced.

(there is some pretty weird stuff that can happen with losing focus though. Suddenly not proficient in heavy armor, or a blind character without their blindsight.)

Edit: I'm pretty sure you can use psionics while raging. That makes zero sense, considering you can't cast spells.

[twas_Brillig]

(Also, the Order of the Immortal doesn't gain extra attack, right?)
Nope. Celerity discipline gives you Surge of Action as a bonus action for a 5 pp extra action, with a limit to one attack if the attack action is chosen. Otherwise they're limited to augmenting single attacks.

I'm sort of curious what psionic archetypes (or alternate classes?) would look like. What's the psionic equivalent of an eldritch knight or arcane trickster look like? What about an Oath of Freedom of Expression (please, someone come up with a better oath) paladin who bolsters their allies with inspiring, and only-slightly-dubious, empathic projection?

Power points line up neatly with the spell points variant, as people have brought up, with Psi Limit ~= the cost for a spell of the appropriate level for a full caster.

[Petrocorus]

Yeah, I'd kinda push that into nearly 'must have' - heck a Rogue 1/Cleric (Knowledge) 1/OotA 1 has 10 skills (before race), 5 of which are expertised. Go Bard 2 to another skill and expertise... And your character isn't really weak! (Though very MAD. I will certainly grant you that.) But skillmonkeys who really want to encompass the spectrum and be good at it, will be MAD anyway...

That's why the Mind Vault Discipline bothers me. Your level 1 Mystic with Mind Vault is basically proficient with everything. At least out of fight. Granted, you can use your focus and it's not that useful in combat, but that's still quite powerful, IMHO.

[Flashy]

That's why the Mind Vault Discipline bothers me. Your level 1 Mystic with Mind Vault is basically proficient with everything. At least out of fight. Granted, you can use your focus and it's not that useful in combat, but that's still quite powerful, IMHO.

Eh, Knowledge Cleric already essentially has this with their Channel Divinity. 1-3/short rest proficient in anything for 10 minutes per charge.

[Malifice]

Casters in 5e are already OP

No they're not.

If your DM is sticking to the [6-8 encounter/ 2 short rest per long rest] paradigm that 5E operates in, then you would be having a very different experience. I take from your post your DM runs his games with far shorter AD's [1-2 encounters per long rest is my guess] as the default.

Casters are OP in your campaign. Blame your own DM.


So, you're getting a feat+ (martial weapons) a feat (heavy armor), a third of a feat (1 cantrip), half a feat (mobility), and a 7th level Barbarian feature (advantage on Initative). All for a single level dip.

So.. on par with Cleric (War and Life)?


And you can swap out the martial weapons and armor for extra skills and expertise, if you'd rather.

So.. on par with Rogue?


I guess the big thing that bugs is giving away 7th level ability at 1st. This seems a common theme with the Mystic... that's the power creep that's easily fixable.

My issue is with the psychic weapon discipline. The +3 weapon comes online way too early, the dex save attack is sloppily written (it shound just do 1+Int bonus damage on a miss for mine) and the lethal strike is way broken compared to paladin.

A Mystic 5 can spam 5 x 5d10 damage smites per long rest. Way better than a Paladin.

It should be +1d8 damage (instead of d10s) and it should scale at +1d8 for 2PP, +2d8 for 5PP, +3d8 for 7PP etc.

[Flashy]

Celerity discipline gives you Surge of Action as a bonus action for a 5 pp extra action

I seriously can't get over them calling it Surge of Action. They could have called it Empowered Burst or Action at the Speed of Thought or literally anything that isn't just the Fighter ability with the words jumbled up.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

No they're not.

If your DM is sticking to the [6-8 encounter/ 2 short rest per long rest] paradigm that 5E operates in, then you would be having a very different experience. I take from your post your DM runs his games with far shorter AD's [1-2 encounters per long rest is my guess] as the default.

Casters are OP in your campaign. Blame your own DM.


Play a caster before you talk about things like this. Once you play a mid level or higher caster you will understand just how poerful they are, with base rules, compared to the rest of the world/non-caster.

Seriously, actually play a caster, unless a DM specifically nerf what they can do then they are OP versus the world and non-caster.

[Flashy]

Seriously, actually play a caster, unless a DM specifically nerf what they can do then they are OP versus the world and non-caster.

I've been playing a Knowledge Cleric in the mid-levels for the past year or so and I usually feel pretty genuinely overshadowed by party's Paladin combat. In our last session an enemy that the Paladin stood toe to toe with for many rounds essentially ate me for breakfast.

Mind, I'm wildly useful out of combat and in love with the character archetype anyway, but as someone who plays a full caster I really don't agree that they're overpowered. It feels about equivalent to me, honestly.

[treecko]

Casters can certainly do things that martials can't hope to replicate. Multi target cc is an example at lower levels, while the ability to decimate entire cities or armies with giant spells like earthquake and meteor swarm is another at high levels. Add a variety of abilities like summoning, teleportation, scrying, all sorts of persuasion spells, illusions, and you get powers that martials can't match, even if the paladin or fighter performs better in combat. The way that combats are balanced fighters and the like get to shine but out of combat and large scale operations are better left to the wizards.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here. I've been thinking about all the good multiclasses for the psion. Right now, barbarian, eldritch knight, and bladesinger look pretty nice, as well as paladin and rogue.

[Malifice]

Play a caster before you talk about things like this. Once you play a mid level or higher caster you will understand just how poerful they are, with base rules, compared to the rest of the world/non-caster.

Seriously, actually play a caster, unless a DM specifically nerf what they can do then they are OP versus the world and non-caster.

You're wrong. I have played DnD for over 30 years, and casters are perfectly balanced compared to non casters - arguably more than in any other edition of the game.

Do you consider 11th level 'mid level'?

A wizard of that level has 4/3/3/3/2/1 spell slots available.

Over a standard 6-8 (we'll go with 7) encounter/ 2 short rest adventuring day, he gets:

Encounter [difficulty]:
1 [hard]: 5th level spell, 1st level spell, cantrips
2 [medium]: 4th level spell, 3rd level spell, cantrips
3 [medium]: 4th level spell, 2nd level spell, 1st level spell, cantrips
[short rest]
4 [medium]: 5th level spell, 1st level spell, cantrips
5 [hard]: 6th level spell, 3rd level spell, cantrips
[short rest] - arcane recovery
6 [medium]: 4th level spell, 2nd level spell, 1st level spell, cantrips
7 [deadly]: 6th level spell, 3rd level spell, 2nd level spell

Thats about 2 spells per encounter (around 8 total spell levels per encounter). There is absolutely no need to nerf any wizards or buff any non casters. Six 'medium-hard' encounters plus one 'deadly' BBEG and your wizard is spamming 2-3 spells per encounter (on average one of 5th level, one of 3rd and one of 1st) and blatting cantrips for the remaining rounds.

Whats happening in your campaign is your DM is (foolishly or intentionally) ignoring the 6-8 encounter/ 2 short rest per long rest 'balance point' for classes and only giving 1-2 encounters per adventuring day. As a consequence your casters are able to nova the crap out of the encounter (spamming high level spell after high level spell) and look amazing.

Sit at my table where I stick to the [6-8 encounter /2short rest] meta of 5E and I ASSURE you, you'll have a very different experience.

Its not a flaw with the system. Its a flaw with your DM.

[treecko]

snip


8 would be the high end, DMG page 84 says 6 to 8. From my experience, wizards are balanced in combat. They do well against very large crowds of very weak monsters with AoE spells, have good single target spells like hold person, banish, polymorph. The issue is their out of combat abilties that can do things other classes can't. From a glance:
Minor Illusion (and all other illusion spells)
Comprehend Languages
Fog Cloud
Detect Thoughts
Invisibility (and all variants)
Spider Climb
Misty Step
Clairvoyance (and all other scrying spells)
Leomund's tiny hut
Water Breathing
Dimension Door
Polymorph
Animate Objects/other summoning spells
Modify Memory
Teleportation Circle
Etheralness
Plane Shift
Teleport
Clone
Control Weather
Meteor Swarm
True Polymorph
and of course, Wish

A variety of effects from all levels that martials can't even hope to match their out of combat abilities in doing certain tasks.

[Malifice]

8 would be the high end, DMG page 84 says 6 to 8.

I used 7 (I split the difference). In my own campaign I stick to a 6 encounter/ 2 short rest paradigm around 50 percent of the time. Sometimes ill dial it up to 8 or 9, sometimes it'll be dialed down 1-3.

Longer or shorter AD's give different classes chances to shine.


From my experience, wizards are balanced in combat. They do well against very large crowds of very weak monsters with AoE spells, have good single target spells like hold person, banish, polymorph. The issue is their out of combat abilties that can do things other classes can't. From a glance:
Minor Illusion (and all other illusion spells)
Comprehend Languages
Fog Cloud
Detect Thoughts
Invisibility (and all variants)
Spider Climb
Misty Step
Clairvoyance (and all other scrying spells)
Leomund's tiny hut
Water Breathing
Dimension Door
Polymorph
Animate Objects/other summoning spells
Modify Memory
Teleportation Circle
Etheralness
Plane Shift
Teleport
Clone
Control Weather
Meteor Swarm
True Polymorph
and of course, Wish

Most of which are just easy ways of doing something that could be done with roleplaying or clever skill use or by taking more time.

Instead of a summoned zombie army, the fighter has his myrmidions. Instead of spider climbing you use a rope. Instead of modifying memory, you bribe the NPC, or intimidate it. Instead of saying 'I teleport to the island' isnt really that different from saying 'I book a voyage on a ship'. Plane shifting is just a plot enabler already factored in by the DM (the DM is the one that sets the adventure on another Plane). The DM could just as easily place an 'arcane gate' that only opens if a Cleric spams a use of divine channel or it only opens when a BM fighter expends a superioirity dice to trigger the gate.

There is some nice utility there, and certainly a range of abilities that make tasks easier and quicker, but those spells dont break the game, they enable it.

[treecko]

magic


While I think magic is slightly better than the alternatives you listed, the fact that there alternatives is an example of good game design and balance. I think you've convinced me.

(other than 9th level spells. But I think most people agree those ones are pretty strong. Hard to beat altering reality to whatever you feel like.)

[Quintessence]

Still no soulknife? God damn it.. That class always had so much potential :(

[Gastronomie]

To the people saying this is overpowered if players dip into it:

DON'T let them dip into it.

The logic here is quite simple. Psionics powers don't suddenly pop into someone's brain. You need a reason your character suddenly gains them. If the characters come across some ancient psionic artifact or otherwise have an incident that awakens their abilities, that's fine, but unless that happens, it's sorta weird to suddenly multiclass into this.

It's fine if they start off as this character though (as long as he/she has backstory to justify it).

[Petrocorus]

Eh, Knowledge Cleric already essentially has this with their Channel Divinity. 1-3/short rest proficient in anything for 10 minutes per charge.

Indeed, the Knowledge Cleric get this 3 times per rest at level 2. The Mystic get this as many times as he wants at level 1.

[Malifice]

While I think magic is slightly better than the alternatives you listed, the fact that there alternatives is an example of good game design and balance. I think you've convinced me.

(other than 9th level spells. But I think most people agree those ones are pretty strong. Hard to beat altering reality to whatever you feel like.)

Most 9th level spells give the DM enough wiggle room to play around with what happens to suit the campaign to a certain extent. Even (particularly in fact) wish. Similar arguments can be made for simulacrum (so much opportunity for rogue AI shennanigans).

The problem isnt with casters, it's with DMs who arent used to DMing them. Sticking to 6-8 encounter Adventuring Days's (and preventing nova strikes, which favor long rest dependent classes like casters and paladins over short rest ones like Warlock and Fighter) is the first step. The second step is knowing your players capabilities. If your Wizard has fly, throw flying monsters at him (letting him showcase his shiny new spell). If he can walk through walls, or turn into gaseous form, or contact outer planes, factor this into your adventure design as well. Make such spells an enabler of the adventure, and not an auto win button. The Wizard needs to cast this spell to find out information X or get to room Y (with an alternative method provided that takes a bit longer or requires more effort). Know your players abilities (particularly at high level) and plan around them (not to negate them, but to let them shine). Finally, dont be afraid to get creative with any PC who wish loops or simulacrum chains. Seeing as he is messing with reality warping magic, and/ or recursive AI loops, he's inviting disaster!

It would be a foolish PC indeed that attempted such shennanigans at my table.

[JoeJ]

I have the same objection to this that I've had to psionics since AD&D, and that is it doesn't fit aesthetically. Every other supernatural power in the game is magic. Even a monk's ki abilities are explicitly stated to be magic. All casters, whether using a class ability, a racial ability, or a feat, use the rules in chapter 10. Adding a one-off type of caster class that doesn't use magic just feels wrong.

Also, the words psionic and psi are anachronistic enough to be immersion breaking for a pseudo medieval setting.

[Alerad]

To the people saying this is overpowered if players dip into it:

DON'T let them dip into it.

The logic here is quite simple. Psionics powers don't suddenly pop into someone's brain. You need a reason your character suddenly gains them. If the characters come across some ancient psionic artifact or otherwise have an incident that awakens their abilities, that's fine, but unless that happens, it's sorta weird to suddenly multiclass into this.

It's fine if they start off as this character though (as long as he/she has backstory to justify it).

This is the single most sensible thought I've seen on this thread so far. :smallsmile:


To me it seems the Mystic is powerful, but it's a hell to juggle all his abilities. One focus, one concentration and a lot of skills which require your bonus action. A multiclass would probably also require 13 Int. Which stat to dump?

I'd like to see this in action, I'll try to talk to one of my players to test it out.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Yeah Mystic seems ridiculously powerful in this. Mystic 5/Fighter X seems pretty great. At 10th level you can make 4 attacks in one round (Attack, Extra Attack, Action Surge, Bonus Action: Surge of Action[Celerity]). Even with 3 other disciplines with Celerity giving another attack as a bonus action for 5 psi points, 25 of the 27 max would almost always be used for that. 5 additional attacks per day.

Actually, this build seems pretty sweet with Eldritch Knight. Might even give me a reason to play it. Surge of Action as a bonus action lets you use your first additional action to cast a spell, then attack three times and have an action surge in case you wanted to teleport 30 feet before or after you attack again or use the dodge action. Dex and Int build. Seems legit.

[Alerad]

Yeah Mystic seems ridiculously powerful in this. Mystic 5/Fighter X seems pretty great. At 10th level you can make 4 attacks in one round (Attack, Extra Attack, Action Surge, Bonus Action: Surge of Action[Celerity]). Even with 3 other disciplines with Celerity giving another attack as a bonus action for 5 psi points, 25 of the 27 max would almost always be used for that. 5 additional attacks per day.

Actually many abilities which allow you to use your bonus action to make a conditional attack allow a Fighter 10 to do exactly the same. Fighter 11 will be able to get 7 attacks this way.

[JoeJ]

Yeah Mystic seems ridiculously powerful in this. Mystic 5/Fighter X seems pretty great. At 10th level you can make 4 attacks in one round (Attack, Extra Attack, Action Surge, Bonus Action: Surge of Action[Celerity]).

Actually five. Extra Attack applies to your Action Surge as well as your regular action.

Of course, a Fighter 5 can also do this without any levels in Mystic simply by using two weapons.

[Kevingway]

It sounds like a lot of the complaints refer to level dipping.

As far as I'm aware, Wizards isn't balancing their game around optional rules. Multiclassing wasn't an optional rule in previous editions, but since it is now, is dipping really an issue? The DM has full reign to disallow it since it isn't part of the class meta, or... you know, because they're the DM.

My only gripe is that it's hard to look at the Mystic as a whole class with only 10 levels. Can't really compare it to other classes. But with the 10 levels we have now, is it alright compared to other classes at level 10? If it's still front-loaded from that perspective, then maybe it does need to be changed... but if they all level out around 10, then I'd say it's balanced enough.

[Malifice]

Yeah Mystic seems ridiculously powerful in this. Mystic 5/Fighter X seems pretty great. At 10th level you can make 4 attacks in one round (Attack, Extra Attack, Action Surge, Bonus Action: Surge of Action[Celerity]). Even with 3 other disciplines with Celerity giving another attack as a bonus action for 5 psi points, 25 of the 27 max would almost always be used for that. 5 additional attacks per day.

Actually, this build seems pretty sweet with Eldritch Knight. Might even give me a reason to play it. Surge of Action as a bonus action lets you use your first additional action to cast a spell, then attack three times and have an action surge in case you wanted to teleport 30 feet before or after you attack again or use the dodge action. Dex and Int build. Seems legit.

Thats 5 attacks.

Although celerity isnt the worst of the lot. With psychic weapon, a TWF 5th level Mystic/ Fighter has enough Psi points to burn +5d10 on every single one of its 5 attacks.

Yes thats an 8d8+25d10 nova at 10th level.

[Prophet_of_Io]

Thats 5 attacks.

Although celerity isnt the worst of the lot. With psychic weapon, a TWF 5th level Mystic/ Fighter has enough Psi points to burn +5d10 on every single one of its 5 attacks.

Yes thats an 8d8+25d10 nova at 10th level.Jeeze. And the scary thing is, 5 levels is all you need in Mystic. Access to Greater Disciplines, you can take Psionic Weapon, Celerity, Iron Durability and one of the greater two (Adaptive Body for melee based and Body of Wind for ranged perhaps).

Honestly I like a lot about the class but it's such a generically good class to dip in I almost feel like they should just dial back the power and make it a Prestige Class. I get that people want the full class, I can appreciate that, but this version of Psionics is exactly the kind of class I'd rather seen moved there.

[Steampunkette]

Thats 5 attacks.

Although celerity isnt the worst of the lot. With psychic weapon, a TWF 5th level Mystic/ Fighter has enough Psi points to burn +5d10 on every single one of its 5 attacks.

Yes thats an 8d8+25d10 nova at 10th level.

And then the fighter is spent for the day, becoming a 5th level fighter with extra Hp, some minor power benefits, and skill options.

Everyone talking about the nuke potential leaves out that they are spent after that one awesome round.

At least with 5 pally levels you could have some smite left... but yeah. Ya'll seem obsessed with blowing your load.

[Malifice]

And then the fighter is spent for the day, becoming a 5th level fighter with extra Hp, some minor power benefits, and skill options.

Everyone talking about the nuke potential leaves out that they are spent after that one awesome round.

At least with 5 pally levels you could have some smite left... but yeah. Ya'll seem obsessed with blowing your load.

Im not supporting that kind of playstyle; Im just saying that they could build into the class some kind of buffer to remove that option.

As it stands, thats a mighty impressive smite nova.

[Alerad]

Im not supporting that kind of playstyle; Im just saying that they could build into the class some kind of buffer to remove that option.

As it stands, thats a mighty impressive smite nova.

Such players are literally asking for the Great Old Ones' 10th level warlocks to come hunting them.

[Arkhios]

Looking at the mechanics, Strength of Mind is rather wonky.
Unless multiclassing into Mystic grants proficiency into Wisdom saving throws (which I doubt), how is this feature going to work for someone whose original class did not have proficiency in Wisdom saving throws?
How can I replace a non-existent proficiency for another?

I realize that with taking Resilient feat the issue is slightly smaller but feats are optional rule, as well as multiclassing is. However, a DM might allow multiclassing but not feats. (been there, done that, it worked)

Even if multiclassing is an optional rule, it's in Player's Handbook, for the players to gape at. For an optional rule, it has a huge impact on all classes in the game. Impact of this magnitude should be taken into account on multiple occssions. Not only Strength of Mind, but also the matter of "dipping", however each and every DM wanted to rule it in their campaigns.

However, this class is still under progress, and to playtest it, one should not multiclass to or from mystic, but play a full mystic. Likewise others in the group should not make multiclass monstrosities but stick in single class careers, to see how a mystic might fit in.

[Malifice]

Such players are literally asking for the Great Old Ones' 10th level warlocks to come hunting them.

Nah man. I'd let them personally.

And then watch as they had to deal with the next 5 or 6 encounters that adventuring day totally out of psi points and sucking badly and having to rely on the rest of the party (rather angrily) babysitting them.

But hey - they really took out that one frost giant in encounter 1 like a boss.

Players in my game nova exactly once. They catch on pretty quick.

[Zalabim]

I think a really likely (or at least intuitive) limit will be limiting the Mystic to spending up to their psi limit per turn, similar to how Bonus Action Spellcasting limits how fast Spellcasters can burn slots.

Off-topic, I agree with the conclusion that wizards are fairly well balanced even though I disagree with Mal's methods.

[Theodoxus]

Looking at the mechanics, Strength of Mind is rather wonky.
Unless multiclassing into Mystic grants proficiency into Wisdom saving throws (which I doubt), how is this feature going to work for someone whose original class did not have proficiency in Wisdom saving throws?
How can I replace a non-existent proficiency for another?

I realize that with taking Resilient feat the issue is slightly smaller but feats are optional rule, as well as multiclassing is. However, a DM might allow multiclassing but not feats. (been there, done that, it worked)

Even if multiclassing is an optional rule, it's in Player's Handbook, for the players to gape at. For an optional rule, it has a huge impact on all classes in the game. Impact of this magnitude should be taken into account on multiple occssions. Not only Strength of Mind, but also the matter of "dipping", however each and every DM wanted to rule it in their campaigns.

However, this class is still under progress, and to playtest it, one should not multiclass to or from mystic, but play a full mystic. Likewise others in the group should not make multiclass monstrosities but stick in single class careers, to see how a mystic might fit in.

At first I was all 'yeah!, Don't MC the Mystic, you'll never know it's true potential of how broken it can be'. But then I got to thinking, and was all 'wait, if we want to know where it comes off as OP, so we can get it changed before publication, we need to know those MC breakpoints too!'

So, I'd recommend first time introducing the class, anyone who wants to play it would be restricted from MC (regardless if you allow MC in general - the specific class is verboten). Well, at least until level 10 - gonna have to MC or use Epic Rules going forward. But then, once the table understands Mystic, I recommend breaking it all to hell - find those weird idiosyncrasies that don't work - Strength of Mind is a fantastic catch. (I would simply change "Wisdom" to "Strong Save", but that's me.)

I can certainly see Mystic being a prestige class... though how to justify suddenly expanding your mind powers after being another class... I have a hard enough time trying to justify it as a full class... As a DM, I'd almost want to always have a Far Realm explanation - a GOO "god of psions" kind of encounter for anyone interested in picking up Mystic - and then they become Warlock-lite. Eh... I like the fluff in general, but as a player, it's too restrictive and as a DM it's too conforming.

For a campaign based around it, I could see it working (Dark Sun? Yes please.) For a current game, just introducing psionics carte blanche? No thanks.

[Arkhios]

At first I was all 'yeah!, Don't MC the Mystic, you'll never know it's true potential of how broken it can be'. But then I got to thinking, and was all 'wait, if we want to know where it comes off as OP, so we can get it changed before publication, we need to know those MC breakpoints too!'

So, I'd recommend first time introducing the class, anyone who wants to play it would be restricted from MC (regardless if you allow MC in general - the specific class is verboten). Well, at least until level 10 - gonna have to MC or use Epic Rules going forward. But then, once the table understands Mystic, I recommend breaking it all to hell - find those weird idiosyncrasies that don't work - Strength of Mind is a fantastic catch. (I would simply change "Wisdom" to "Strong Save", but that's me.)

I can certainly see Mystic being a prestige class... though how to justify suddenly expanding your mind powers after being another class... I have a hard enough time trying to justify it as a full class... As a DM, I'd almost want to always have a Far Realm explanation - a GOO "god of psions" kind of encounter for anyone interested in picking up Mystic - and then they become Warlock-lite. Eh... I like the fluff in general, but as a player, it's too restrictive and as a DM it's too conforming.

For a campaign based around it, I could see it working (Dark Sun? Yes please.) For a current game, just introducing psionics carte blanche? No thanks.

Ok, I admit my thoughts jumped on and off the MC issue when I wrote that.

I agree that to get a full picture of Mystic as it is now, one should be forbidden to multiclass until no playtest levels were available anymore. At that point, having played 10 levels straight as a Mystic you and your group should have a good idea how the class works as a single class. Multiclassing beyond that point will take the class up one level, and we can see where it breaks down. Theorycrafting is a different beast than a real experience :)

[Oramac]

A multiclass would probably also require 13 Int. Which stat to dump?

I'd like to see this in action, I'll try to talk to one of my players to test it out.

I was already thinking about this. It's a bit MAD, but for my preferred Paladin, I'd play a Tiefling and use a 27-point buy for stats:

Str: 15
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 13 + 1
Wis: 10
Cha: 12 + 2

[Petrocorus]

Isn't there also a problem with Consumptive Power? The higher level you are (i.e the stronger you are as a Mystic), the more it cost to regain the same amount of Psi points. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[SharkForce]

Isn't there also a problem with Consumptive Power? The higher level you are (i.e the stronger you are as a Mystic), the more it cost to regain the same amount of Psi points. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

the relative cost remains the same. basically, think of it as if you were losing 2 con instead.

it's still a terrible ability, mind you, barely even worth considering unless you are in the most absolutely desperate situation imaginable, and even then it'll probably backfire, because the cost is so high regardless of what level you are, but the scaling cost is fine. if you think about it, something like, say, reckless attack's disadvantage also generally gets worse the higher level you get, because the things you are fighting are more powerful, tend to deal more damage, tend to have nastier effects on-hit (if they have on-hit effects), tend to have a higher chance to hit in the first place (meaning the increased chance to hit is accentuated), and meanwhile your AC probably hasn't improved nearly as much to compensate.

[Petrocorus]

the relative cost remains the same. basically, think of it as if you were losing 2 con instead.

Indeed, but my point was the i think it the relative cost should scale down with level. It's not like you could recover more and more psi points with it, the limit stay at 5 points.



if you think about it, something like, say, reckless attack's disadvantage also generally gets worse the higher level you get, because the things you are fighting are more powerful, tend to deal more damage, tend to have nastier effects on-hit (if they have on-hit effects), tend to have a higher chance to hit in the first place (meaning the increased chance to hit is accentuated), and meanwhile your AC probably hasn't improved nearly as much to compensate.

Indeed, but Reckless Attack is something you can decide every round to do or not. I think the point of Reckless Attack is to try to nova an enemy by taking a risk. And you can be cured afterwards (if you're still alive ;)). But Consumptive Power reduce your HP max until the next long rest, really a big hindrance for the rest of your adventuring day, for a minor benefit. Hence my first point, it should scale down, or the psi points recovered should scale up.

[KorvinStarmast]

I may need to read this again, but if I go Mystic (Immortal) I don't get multiple attacks ... unless I use Celerity/Surge of Action and burn psi points. The best I could do in melee is two attacks: (one attack and another attack which takes a bonus action to accomplish.

Did I miss anything?

As I understand it, you can't take a discipline that isn't assigned to your order. Do I read that correctly?

I'd like to see how this would be fleshed out all the way to 20.

[joaber]

somethings are overpowered other under. Surge of Action is like haste, but waaay worse.


psychic grip is really nice, hold monster but target int. Blindsight at will at lvl 1 is just great.

[SharkForce]

Indeed, but my point was the i think it the relative cost should scale down with level. It's not like you could recover more and more psi points with it, the limit stay at 5 points.



Indeed, but Reckless Attack is something you can decide every round to do or not. I think the point of Reckless Attack is to try to nova an enemy by taking a risk. And you can be cured afterwards (if you're still alive ;)). But Consumptive Power reduce your HP max until the next long rest, really a big hindrance for the rest of your adventuring day, for a minor benefit. Hence my first point, it should scale down, or the psi points recovered should scale up.

the relative value also increases, because what you can do with 5 points (or even 1 point) increases. your DC and attack rolls have improved, the number of different effects you can choose from has improved, and what your entire party can do with the effect has improved.

now, the question of whether the cost-benefit is at the right place to begin with is something you can certainly question. it depends a great deal on how you view the ability; as an absolute last resort, it might be worthwhile. i certainly wouldn't use it unless i was very desperate. but that may be the intention of the ability's use; something you only do if you have no other options.

in any event, at higher levels you can in fact deal with the effect (though it's just costing someone else resources, such as a greater restoration); you can't reduce the amount of HP and max HP you lose, but nothing says you can't cure it.


I may need to read this again, but if I go Mystic (Immortal) I don't get multiple attacks ... unless I use Celerity/Surge of Action and burn psi points. The best I could do in melee is two attacks: (one attack and another attack which takes a bonus action to accomplish.

Did I miss anything?

As I understand it, you can't take a discipline that isn't assigned to your order. Do I read that correctly?

I'd like to see how this would be fleshed out all the way to 20.

- immortals do only get one attack
- you aren't limited to disciplines of your order, but you gain (small) benefits for using a discipline of your order. most of the time you won't need those benefits, so if a discipline is really important to you, take it regardless of what order it is attached to.

[8wGremlin]

As I understand it, you can't take a discipline that isn't assigned to your order. Do I read that correctly?


Afraid Not, you can take any you want.



Psionic Disciplines
Psionic disciplines are the heart of a mystic’s craft. They are the mental exercises and psychic formulae used to forge inner will into tangibleeffects.Disciplines were each discovered by different orders and tend to reflect their creators’ ethos and specialties. However, a mystic may learn any discipline regardless of its associated order.

[Mjolnirbear]

I seriously cannot find the part that mentions a bonus for using a discipline of your order. Can someone tell me where to find the specifics? I swear I've read this three times looking for it

Edit: ugh. Never mind. Finally found it

[Ralanr]

I seriously cannot find the part that mentions a bonus for using a discipline of your order. Can someone tell me where to find the specifics? I swear I've read this three times looking for it

It's under Mystical recovery.

Edit: I know flavor is kinda pointless to argue, but why does the immortal have an ability to turn into gas? I thought they were to emphasize physical perfection (which helps them achieve immortality). Why can they turn into gas?

I know you can choose not to take it (I'd probably make it a point to pick abilities that aren't obviously psionic because I want to make a character who isn't aware they are psychic) but I'm still curious.

And why does immortal have heavy armor proficiency? Does regular mystic need Medium Armor?

[YCombinator]

I love the class. I've been playing the first draft for a few months now and it's been a blast. Here are my thoughts on the second draft.


Charisma skill check powers are a tad annoying
Does anyone else thing that the Psionic Focus components of Mind Vault (MV), Conquer Mind (CM), and Mind Over Emotion (MOE) are a little disappointingly redundant? I quite like all three disciplines, and would be tempted to take all three.

Conquering Mind: Proficiency in deception, persuasion, intimidation, performance.
Mind Vault: Proficiency in any skill, tool, or weapon.
Mind Over Emotion: Bonus to charisma checks equal to half INT modifier.

How am I supposed to build this? I suppose that they're thinking I'll take CM at early levels and then replace it with MOE when I get to level 5. This means that I can train for real in, let's say, persuasion and deception, use MOE for the INT bonus when I use those skills and just use MV when I need to climb a wall or something. But I really like the powers on CM a lot better than the MOE powers. Extract Query and Occlude Mind for cheap are awesome and Broken Will and Psychic Grip are such strong combat spells I don't want to give that up. So I'm left with this useless Psychic Focus on my discipline I guess.

Mind Thrust -> Thought Spear: the nerf you've all been waiting for.
The old Mind Thrust was renamed Thought Spear and totally nerfed into the ground. But, man it did need a strong nerf. I my last session my character ducked back in the cave we were sleeping in when we got ambush and laid on the ground pretending to relax while the entire party fought a bitter fight. My character was absolutely nuking enemies from the comfort of his sleeping quarters though and I don't think I missed that whole combat. It was pretty fun, but definitely OP.

I worry that with Thought Spear being the primary damage output for an Awakened that this class is really not going to have much to contribute in terms of damage any more though. It's true it's in line with other cantrips but most classes have other damage spells. I am pretty comfortable with Psions really not being very good damage dealers though.

Can you use Mind Thrust without disadvantage?
I guess this must not be a "ranged" attack since you need to use it within 5 feet of you but that's really all it says. Within 5 feet of you. And so does Thought Spear, it says within 120 feet of you. Same wording. So does Thought Spear also not impose disadvantage when in close combat or does using Mind Thrust always come at disadvantage? I love that they added this spell though. I added something like it to my homebrew extension to this class when there wasn't anything to go on.

[Sitri]

Psions were my favorite class in previous editions. Notes as I am reading through for the first time:

- Why is the Psi limit not strait level? It seemed fine before and things are supposed to be more simple now.
- Mystical Recovery seems appropriate for some disciplines/builds, but is it something that seems thematically appropriate for all?
- Strong Mind seems solid mechanically, but I don't understand why your WIS save goes down thematically.
- Consumptive Power seems to fall into the same boat as Mystical recover. It would be nice to pick as a talent or be part of certain Orders, but I am not sure it feels right for all.
- Loving all the Awakened abilities across the board.
- Immortal isn't really my style of psion so I didn't give it much thought, probably completely valid, just not my playstyle.
- I love how modular this class is. Even as a skeleton class, it seems to have a great number of combination of choices. I love that in a class.

[YCombinator]

- Mystical Recovery seems appropriate for some disciplines/builds, but is it something that seems thematically appropriate for all?


I agree. I'm not a huge fan of this power. It seems thematically fit for the Immortal but not the Awakened. I, like you, am more of an Awakened style player. I've been playing one since the first draft came out. I mean, I've been playing one since D&D 3.5 came out but you know...

I'd be happier if this was a Mystic Order feature and there was something worked better for the Awakened.

This also seems to be the most misunderstood feature as everyone in this thread is confused about why the disciplines are tied to an order and whether it matters at all. I think they could either replace this feature or better yet, find some stronger way to tie the disciplines to orders.

I really loved the 3.5 Psion. You chose a path, and you could take some powers that were only permitted to psions with your path. The really beefy ones, usually. But there were also a bunch of powers permitted to all psions. So I could be a telepath, take the really strong mental manipulation powers, but then dip a little into telekinesis to grab Far Hand. But I couldn't take the nasty AoE damage and push spell.

[joaber]

Psions were my favorite class in previous editions. Notes as I am reading through for the first time:

- Why is the Psi limit not strait level? It seemed fine before and things are supposed to be more simple now.


Psi limit is the same as alternative spell points in DMG.

[Malifice]

I cant get why theyre trying to make the psychic warrior and psion the same class.

Surely they could pull them apart.

[Steampunkette]

I agree.

Psion and psychic warrior should be separated into classes with similar structures but different options.

I'd much rather see the disciplines system for Mystics break down closer to a wizard school structure, with pychoportation, telepathy, and other "schools" of psi powers providing frameworks as disciplines.

Meanwhile the Psychic Warrior should get 2 attacks and psi abilitis arranged in disciplines that are based on different combat roles. Like psycoportive archers and body modifying juggernauts.

[X3r4ph]

Psychic Warrior sounds like a Fighter archetype, like EK.

And call the class Psion, much cooler :)

Also, where is my telekinesis? Are sorcerers the true telekinesists?

[Arkhios]

Another thought: If Psionic Talents stay as they are to the publication, I'm guessing there will be a similar feat than Magic Initiate, possibly called Wild Talents. How would these Psionic Wild Talents impact the game when compared to cantrips, as they are supposed to be equal, at least in flavor? In power, I think they're like Cantrips vol.2.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I think what I would like to see is the following for base classes.

Wilder
Psychic Warrior
Lurk
Monk

Bard
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard

Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Ranger

Then give most a spell-less/psi-less ption as a subclass in the PHB.

Wilder psi-less = Beserker barbarian

Psychic Warrior psi-less = Linear Fighter

Bard spell-less = Warlord

Paladin spell-less = Divine Fighter (keep all mystical class features and replace spells)

Druid Spell-Less = Boosted Moon druid


Essentially give everyone a base Quadratic Option but also give everyone a base Linear Option.

New player wants to play a Paladin? They get to play a paladin, just a linear Paladin. Experienced player want to play a dighter, but hates the linear fighter? They can play the quadratic fighter.

Balance the quadratic versions against each other. Then the linear versions will be about dealing damage (which the quadratic versions can do but perhaps not quite as well).


Note: you don't have to call the base class psychic warrior,wilder, or lurk, I was just using those to convey what at their base, they would be.

[Petrocorus]

I agree.

Psion and psychic warrior should be separated into classes with similar structures but different options.

I'd much rather see the disciplines system for Mystics break down closer to a wizard school structure, with pychoportation, telepathy, and other "schools" of psi powers providing frameworks as disciplines.

Meanwhile the Psychic Warrior should get 2 attacks and psi abilitis arranged in disciplines that are based on different combat roles. Like psycoportive archers and body modifying juggernauts.

I agree. Psionics in 3.5 were well done, IMHO. At least the Psion and the Psychic Warrior. Keeping this two classes make perfect sense.


Psychic Warrior sounds like a Fighter archetype, like EK.

Don't thing so, the PW should be its own class and have its own stuff. Just like the Pally and the Ranger are their own class despite being warriors.



And call the class Psion, much cooler :)

Agreed.

[/QUOTE]
Also, where is my telekinesis? Are sorcerers the true telekinesists?[/QUOTE]

Good question. Telekinesis should be a possible focus for the Psion.

[Ralanr]

Honestly I was surprised that they didn't introduce the psionics of 5e through the subclass system. I felt that would have been easier.

They probably wanted to make it unique enough so that it could stand on its own. Downside is that they have to avoid stepping on the other classes toes too much.

I really like how they approach it with the "stance" system. It gives a different play style than casting or martials (within reason).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Honestly I was surprised that they didn't introduce the psionics of 5e through the subclass system. I felt that would have been easier.

They probably wanted to make it unique enough so that it could stand on its own. Downside is that they have to avoid stepping on the other classes toes too much.

I really like how they approach it with the "stance" system. It gives a different play style than casting or martials (within reason).

I think martials (no magic) would have been easier to implement into the subclass system.

Make everyone about equal and then take away certain things and add new things to make an easy version of each class.

The equality doesn't have to be balance between classes. Just make it where each class can be made in different ways (and use different mental and physical abikities), each class grows and is actually worth the level, and each class isn't stuck with one tactic.

Then make the martial subclasses be the "exceptional non-magic" who are apecialized but easy to use.

[Sitri]

I agree.

Psion and psychic warrior should be separated into classes with similar structures but different options.

I'd much rather see the disciplines system for Mystics break down closer to a wizard school structure, with pychoportation, telepathy, and other "schools" of psi powers providing frameworks as disciplines.

Meanwhile the Psychic Warrior should get 2 attacks and psi abilitis arranged in disciplines that are based on different combat roles. Like psycoportive archers and body modifying juggernauts.

YES please

[Ralanr]

I think martials (no magic) would have been easier to implement into the subclass system.

Make everyone about equal and then take away certain things and add new things to make an easy version of each class.

The equality doesn't have to be balance between classes. Just make it where each class can be made in different ways (and use different mental and physical abikities), each class grows and is actually worth the level, and each class isn't stuck with one tactic.

Then make the martial subclasses be the "exceptional non-magic" who are apecialized but easy to use.

I'm sorry, but I'm lost. Are you saying that every class should of had a martial subclass with no magic?

That doesn't seem easier considering how many classes start with magic at level 1.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm sorry, but I'm lost. Are you saying that every class should of had a martial subclass with no magic?

That doesn't seem easier considering how many classes start with magic at level 1.

Not all classes, just the ones that make sense.

Make everyone quadratic and then give most a linear option.

So you have a Paladin who has all their core features plus spells. One subclass would remove spells and add in New class features that let the Paladin keep up with a specific area of the game (much how martials are made now).

Without spells, smite is changed to a short rest mechanic that scales. Add in a few other non-magic features and you have your mostly martial linear Paladin.

You would need to change subclass options to level 1 or 2, which some classes already do, to pull this off easily.

Some classes, such as the Wizard, you wouldn't do this to. It just messes with the idea of the wizard too much.

Start with everyone having arcane/divine/psi features and then specialize with your subclass. Some specializations remove spells and psi and others let you change the way you use them.

[KorvinStarmast]

thank you to 8wgremlin and Ralanr for clearing up my confusion.

Will give this some more thought before I review and see if it's worth a try.

Psychic Focus question: "You can alter your body to withstand punishing environments."
While focused on this discipline, you don't need to eat, sleep, or breathe."

Our adventuring day is over. A long rest is underway, which doesn't necessarily mean "sleep" so here's a thought: I am a non elf. As the party beds down for the night, I stand watch, and get benefit from a long rest, but don't actually need to sleep in order to do so by maintaining focus on this discipline.

Did I miss a detail?
EDIT: Never mind.

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. I could be awake, but someone else has to stand watch after two hours.

[Ralanr]

Not all classes, just the ones that make sense.

Make everyone quadratic and then give most a linear option.

So you have a Paladin who has all their core features plus spells. One subclass would remove spells and add in New class features that let the Paladin keep up with a specific area of the game (much how martials are made now).

Without spells, smite is changed to a short rest mechanic that scales. Add in a few other non-magic features and you have your mostly martial linear Paladin.

You would need to change subclass options to level 1 or 2, which some classes already do, to pull this off easily.

Some classes, such as the Wizard, you wouldn't do this to. It just messes with the idea of the wizard too much.

Start with everyone having arcane/divine/psi features and then specialize with your subclass. Some specializations remove spells and psi and others let you change the way you use them.

Seems kinda unfun to lose a class feature as you progress in that class.

[YCombinator]

I agree.

Psion and psychic warrior should be separated into classes with similar structures but different options.

I'd much rather see the disciplines system for Mystics break down closer to a wizard school structure, with pychoportation, telepathy, and other "schools" of psi powers providing frameworks as disciplines.

Meanwhile the Psychic Warrior should get 2 attacks and psi abilitis arranged in disciplines that are based on different combat roles. Like psycoportive archers and body modifying juggernauts.

I agree as do many of the folks on this board it seems. I think Psychic Warrior and Psion sharing a class has taken a lot of the various flavors away from the Psion that I really enjoyed in 3.5.

I don't know much about the Psychic Warrior but for the Psion I see the subclasses being chosen at level 1, psychics get telepathy, telekinetiscists get far hand, etc. There are a bunch of disciplines that are restricted to subclass, but there are also a decent number that are not, allowing a little bit of flexibility and mixing some of the less powerful abilities flavored for other subclasses.

[Ralanr]

I don't know much about the Psychic Warrior but for the Psion I see the subclasses being chosen at level 1, psychics get telepathy, telekinetiscists get far hand, etc. There are a bunch of disciplines that are restricted to subclass, but there are also a decent number that are not, allowing a little bit of flexibility and mixing some of the less powerful abilities flavored for other subclasses.

That seems to be their intended goal (the first draft did allude to soul knife and force power subclasses).

I think the psychic warrior is a subclass of psion in this edition because the psychic warrior doesn't have enough definition to make multiple subclasses for it. Or making subclasses for the psychic warrior seems redundant when they can work as a subclass.

It is a lot less work to make one psion class that represents psions as a whole than to make two psion classes which are defined as, "Everything a Psion can do that isn't physical" and "Physical Psion."

Whenever I see Espers in fiction, they make it clear that they are all espers but they have different skill sets.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Seems kinda unfun to lose a class feature as you progress in that class.

You aren't losing anything, you are trading

If this isn't acceptable then why is not giving those classes (martials) anything that helps them be quadratic (current system) acceptable?

[pwykersotz]

You aren't losing anything, you are trading

If this isn't acceptable then why is not giving those classes (martials) anything that helps them be quadratic (current system) acceptable?

Just from my own point of view...

It would be because your solution takes a very small/nonexistant problem at my table and rewrites the game around it to be something that holds no appeal for me. Making all classes have narrative power and spectacular capabilities is fine, but making them all magical by default is not. It strips away a very much beloved medieval fantasy aesthetic.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Just from my own point of view...

It would be because your solution takes a very small/nonexistant problem at my table and rewrites the game around it to be something that holds no appeal for me. Making all classes have narrative power and spectacular capabilities is fine, but making them all magical by default is not. It strips away a very much beloved medieval fantasy aesthetic.

There are many many problems with the current set up. Not only is it broken on a mechanical level but it is broke within the setting itself. There is no really reasons why Fighters, Rogues, and Barbarians exist past level 5-ish. They don't learn anything new, they just do the same things more often or with bigger numbers. There is no reason why, like our classic cars that can't keep up with current cars, they haven't become obsolete.

Yeah you may find one here or there, but they are mostly for show.

Psionic isn't magic, or at least it doesn't have to be.

My main thing is to make the core class "Quadratic" and have subclasses. One or two subclasses can be a "Linear" progression.

This way you can balance the game mechanically AND within its own world.

If you want medieval fantasy then you are looking at the wrong system, D&D is a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting that just piggybacks on older settings without really working itself out. Besides, having all PCs being quadratic (or even magical) would make sense within a medieval setting, those with technology replaced those without technology. I see no reason to believe magic wouldn't do the same.

Note: I absolutely love magic in this game. I absolutely love non-magic in other games. There is no reason the two can't both be awesome at the same time.

[Ralanr]

There are many many problems with the current set up. Not only is it broken on a mechanical level but it is broke within the setting itself. There is no really reasons why Fighters, Rogues, and Barbarians exist past level 5-ish. They don't learn anything new, they just do the same things more often or with bigger numbers. There is no reason why, like our classic cars that can't keep up with current cars, they haven't become obsolete.

Yeah you may find one here or there, but they are mostly for show.

Psionic isn't magic, or at least it doesn't have to be.

My main thing is to make the core class "Quadratic" and have subclasses. One or two subclasses can be a "Linear" progression.

This way you can balance the game mechanically AND within its own world.

If you want medieval fantasy then you are looking at the wrong system, D&D is a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting that just piggybacks on older settings without really working itself out. Besides, having all PCs being quadratic (or even magical) would make sense within a medieval setting, those with technology replaced those without technology. I see no reason to believe magic wouldn't do the same.

Note: I absolutely love magic in this game. I absolutely love non-magic in other games. There is no reason the two can't both be awesome at the same time.

Can you give a proper definition of how those terms are meant to play out in this game? It would be much easier to understand this if you explained what you meant by them. I know about linear warriors and quadratic wizards, but I have no idea how you make a class "quadratic".

[SharkForce]

Can you give a proper definition of how those terms are meant to play out in this game? It would be much easier to understand this if you explained what you meant by them. I know about linear warriors and quadratic wizards, but I have no idea how you make a class "quadratic".

the basic method of making a quadratic character is simple: as they gain levels, they get better at what they could do before, and they also gain new abilities as well.

so, for example, a fighter won't really dramatically change what they can do at level 20 as compared to level 1 (well, probably level 3 would be the better break-off point in 5e actually - the 5e fighter changes quite a bit between level 1 and 3). the things they can do, they do better; they attack more often, they have more hit points, etc, but broadly speaking, a level 20 fighter is an awful lot like a level 3 fighter with bigger numbers.

in contrast, a wizard or druid changes dramatically over the course of 20 levels. not only can they do the things they did at level 1 better (higher save DC/attack roll, cantrips have improved, they have higher level slots to use those spells in), but they've also been adding on new things that they can do regularly. they can target a variety of saves, inflict a variety of status effects, target much larger areas at much longer range, summon minions, buff allies, alter the world around them in new and powerful ways, etc, and those abilities also generally improve as they gain levels (again, save DCs and attack modifiers go up, and they have higher level spell slots to fuel those spells).

5e is certainly much *less* quadratic than 3.x of course. if nothing else, free scaling on spells is dead and gone, and most of the really overpowered spells have been nerfed or removed. but that's your basic formula for quadratic vs linear; linear just gets better at the things they could already do as they gain levels, quadratic gets better at everything they do and gets to do more things as they gain levels.

[Spiritchaser]

My thought is that this needs to be a short rest class.

Conceptually it feels more right
There aren't spell slot compatibility issues anyway
The ungodly nova of lethal strike will become a more frequent nova of only quite disturbing proportions, or the character truly is burning everything.

Obviously some cooldowns can/should be long rest, so be it.

Edit: just as an example a level 8 mystic would probably get around 12 points per short rest. Two lethal strikes and you're more or less done.

[Ralanr]

the basic method of making a quadratic character is simple: as they gain levels, they get better at what they could do before, and they also gain new abilities as well.

so, for example, a fighter won't really dramatically change what they can do at level 20 as compared to level 1 (well, probably level 3 would be the better break-off point in 5e actually - the 5e fighter changes quite a bit between level 1 and 3). the things they can do, they do better; they attack more often, they have more hit points, etc, but broadly speaking, a level 20 fighter is an awful lot like a level 3 fighter with bigger numbers.

in contrast, a wizard or druid changes dramatically over the course of 20 levels. not only can they do the things they did at level 1 better (higher save DC/attack roll, cantrips have improved, they have higher level slots to use those spells in), but they've also been adding on new things that they can do regularly. they can target a variety of saves, inflict a variety of status effects, target much larger areas at much longer range, summon minions, buff allies, alter the world around them in new and powerful ways, etc, and those abilities also generally improve as they gain levels (again, save DCs and attack modifiers go up, and they have higher level spell slots to fuel those spells).

5e is certainly much *less* quadratic than 3.x of course. if nothing else, free scaling on spells is dead and gone, and most of the really overpowered spells have been nerfed or removed. but that's your basic formula for quadratic vs linear; linear just gets better at the things they could already do as they gain levels, quadratic gets better at everything they do and gets to do more things as they gain levels.

I feel like the reason martial classes stick to being linear because the very thing they specialize in (combat) is linear in nature.

[Doug Lampert]

the basic method of making a quadratic character is simple: as they gain levels, they get better at what they could do before, and they also gain new abilities as well.

so, for example, a fighter won't really dramatically change what they can do at level 20 as compared to level 1 (well, probably level 3 would be the better break-off point in 5e actually - the 5e fighter changes quite a bit between level 1 and 3). the things they can do, they do better; they attack more often, they have more hit points, etc, but broadly speaking, a level 20 fighter is an awful lot like a level 3 fighter with bigger numbers.

in contrast, a wizard or druid changes dramatically over the course of 20 levels. not only can they do the things they did at level 1 better (higher save DC/attack roll, cantrips have improved, they have higher level slots to use those spells in), but they've also been adding on new things that they can do regularly. they can target a variety of saves, inflict a variety of status effects, target much larger areas at much longer range, summon minions, buff allies, alter the world around them in new and powerful ways, etc, and those abilities also generally improve as they gain levels (again, save DCs and attack modifiers go up, and they have higher level spell slots to fuel those spells).

5e is certainly much *less* quadratic than 3.x of course. if nothing else, free scaling on spells is dead and gone, and most of the really overpowered spells have been nerfed or removed. but that's your basic formula for quadratic vs linear; linear just gets better at the things they could already do as they gain levels, quadratic gets better at everything they do and gets to do more things as they gain levels.

Older versions of the game a high level fighter got followers, if high level fighters got powers that actually made them better leaders of men, that would be good. (Up to X followers all get a +Y to hit and Z temporary HP to indicate the moral boost of being led by such a powerful fighter.)

This even provides synergy if some classes (like casters) can get or make followers and the fighter can boost them.

Magic is claimed to be very hard, and various magical classes keep learning more, maybe every time a magical class would get a new spell or spell level, the mundane classes should get a new skill trick or a new skill (this isn't ideal unless there are "higher level" skill tricks since otherwise you're just getting more low level powers, but even more different low level powers is something).

If you added a stunt mechanism to the game, then mundanes could get better at stunts. (Fighters have an edge on doing stuff in combat since attacks can be used for more than "I hit it with a sword".)

But, "I hit it really very quickly instead of just really quickly" just isn't on the same scale of improvement as "I can now teleport across continents" or "I can now devastate an army at 1 mile range once per day" or "I can now make a copy of someone that has most of their abilities but has to obey me".

If you hit things ENOUGH better than the high level fighter still has a purpose, but bounded accuracy seems to be in large part about declaring "no one is actually all that much better at hitting things with a stick than anyone else" and "all high level characters can do vaguely comparable level appropriate damage".

If one guy can 'hit it with a stick', and another guy can 'hit it with a stick almost as well AND also heal wounds extremely well'. I know which one I'd rather go into trouble with, at least most of the time.

[Ralanr]

Older versions of the game a high level fighter got followers, if high level fighters got powers that actually made them better leaders of men, that would be good. (Up to X followers all get a +Y to hit and Z temporary HP to indicate the moral boost of being led by such a powerful fighter.)

This even provides synergy if some classes (like casters) can get or make followers and the fighter can boost them.

Magic is claimed to be very hard, and various magical classes keep learning more, maybe every time a magical class would get a new spell or spell level, the mundane classes should get a new skill trick or a new skill (this isn't ideal unless there are "higher level" skill tricks since otherwise you're just getting more low level powers, but even more different low level powers is something).

If you added a stunt mechanism to the game, then mundanes could get better at stunts. (Fighters have an edge on doing stuff in combat since attacks can be used for more than "I hit it with a sword".)

But, "I hit it really very quickly instead of just really quickly" just isn't on the same scale of improvement as "I can now teleport across continents" or "I can now devastate an army at 1 mile range once per day" or "I can now make a copy of someone that has most of their abilities but has to obey me".

If you hit things ENOUGH better than the high level fighter still has a purpose, but bounded accuracy seems to be in large part about declaring "no one is actually all that much better at hitting things with a stick than anyone else" and "all high level characters can do vaguely comparable level appropriate damage".

If one guy can 'hit it with a stick', and another guy can 'hit it with a stick almost as well AND also heal wounds extremely well'. I know which one I'd rather go into trouble with, at least most of the time.

This makes me wish all martials had maneuvers. Or a weaker form of maneuvers was allowed in combat by martial classes only.

Battlemaster feels very limited to me. Sure maneuvers are cool, but you have less maneuvers than the caster has spells. Short rests are supposed to make up for this.

[Shaofoo]

Older versions of the game a high level fighter got followers, if high level fighters got powers that actually made them better leaders of men, that would be good. (Up to X followers all get a +Y to hit and Z temporary HP to indicate the moral boost of being led by such a powerful fighter.)

This even provides synergy if some classes (like casters) can get or make followers and the fighter can boost them.

Magic is claimed to be very hard, and various magical classes keep learning more, maybe every time a magical class would get a new spell or spell level, the mundane classes should get a new skill trick or a new skill (this isn't ideal unless there are "higher level" skill tricks since otherwise you're just getting more low level powers, but even more different low level powers is something).

If you added a stunt mechanism to the game, then mundanes could get better at stunts. (Fighters have an edge on doing stuff in combat since attacks can be used for more than "I hit it with a sword".)

But, "I hit it really very quickly instead of just really quickly" just isn't on the same scale of improvement as "I can now teleport across continents" or "I can now devastate an army at 1 mile range once per day" or "I can now make a copy of someone that has most of their abilities but has to obey me".

If you hit things ENOUGH better than the high level fighter still has a purpose, but bounded accuracy seems to be in large part about declaring "no one is actually all that much better at hitting things with a stick than anyone else" and "all high level characters can do vaguely comparable level appropriate damage".

If one guy can 'hit it with a stick', and another guy can 'hit it with a stick almost as well AND also heal wounds extremely well'. I know which one I'd rather go into trouble with, at least most of the time.

I am not sure what are you saying. Everything that you say should be added in the game is in the game already.

Your stunt idea already exists as the Battlemaster, if you are so worried about Fighters just being "I attack" then Battlemaster is your answer.

Also you are very wrong about high level damage, fighters and other melee types will always deal the highest DPR out of all the classes. Magic damage pales in comparison except in corner cases where you can either target several enemies at once or if you are a Warlock with Eldritch Blast.

Heck you can even get spells as a Fighter and a Rogue if you really want to, all classes except Barbarians can get spells.

It just seems to me that you(and others) are taking previous editions problems and believing you can just apply them here as well, which is not true.


This makes me wish all martials had maneuvers. Or a weaker form of maneuvers was allowed in combat by martial classes only.

Battlemaster feels very limited to me. Sure maneuvers are cool, but you have less maneuvers than the caster has spells. Short rests are supposed to make up for this.

They can already do things like grapple, bull rush, disarm just by attacking, there are more options than just apply damage. I am not sure why do you say that there should be maneuvers and yet deride the Battlemaster. It just seems like there is no pleasing you because you want something and then reject the exact same thing that you wanted.

Also I am not sure how does short rest gets into the variety of maneuvers.

[Temperjoke]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the armor options are appropriate for the class. I can see the Order of Immortals having expanded weapons options, but I wonder if it would be better to restrict to light armor, with Order of Immortals getting some form of Unarmored skill, like what Monks and Barbarians get? Wouldn't that reflect their physical discipline better?

[Bullvinne]

I got some responses from @mikemearls on twitter about a few things regarding the Mystic. I am to new to post the links but here is the responses

Regarding Consumptive Power:
My Question: "is Consumptive Power truly meant to be so harsh? The higher level you are, it hurts more while the benefit never goes up"
His Response: "it's basically free power points - balance wise, assumed it was not used vs. other classes' abilities"
My Counter-Question: "ah, but am I reading right that if you used it at a lvl 20 mystic, you will reduce your HP total and max by 100 HP for 5 PP?"
His Response: "we'll do a pass to make sure stuff works past 10. The cost will need to be tweaked."

Regarding Strength of Mind:
My Question: "How is Strength of Mind supposed to work for a class without Wis Prof coming into the Mystic class by multiclassing?"
His Response: "we'll cover that in multi classing, but it'll likely be swap prof in Dex, Wis, or Con for something else."

[Ralanr]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the armor options are appropriate for the class. I can see the Order of Immortals having expanded weapons options, but I wonder if it would be better to restrict to light armor, with Order of Immortals getting some form of Unarmored skill, like what Monks and Barbarians get? Wouldn't that reflect their physical discipline better?

After playing one with a point buy system (my DM limits us to ten) I think I can say that having heavy armor (I had medium) seems like it would be needed for a class that has so few hitpoints and goes into melee combat. Though I could see them having an unarmored defense ability or talent.

Personally I'd like it to be Con and Int. Because I really don't want to pump dex when I plan on using strength as my melee damage source (or my secondary damage source under int).

Dex is so much better for the immortal and that really annoys me.

Edit:

They can already do things like grapple, bull rush, disarm just by attacking, there are more options than just apply damage. I am not sure why do you say that there should be maneuvers and yet deride the Battlemaster. It just seems like there is no pleasing you because you want something and then reject the exact same thing that you wanted.

Also I am not sure how does short rest gets into the variety of maneuvers.

I do not mean to bash the battlemaster, I think they work fine. The only ability that I've seen used from your examples is grappling. Bull Rush I have not seen at all, disarm is an optional rule (I really like the optional combat rules in the DM guide. Particularly the one where everyone says what they will do and then rolls initiative. That seems like a combat system where martials would shine).

When I brought up short rests I meant that a fighter could nova their entire superiority dice in one encounter and get them all back after a short rest. A caster (beyond warlock) can't and thus conserves their spells. In campaigns where you get two short rests, then this works. But if the fighter is the only one who gets any benefits from short rests, then the party doesn't have a full reason to do a short rest after a fight.

Note that I haven't had bad experiences with 5e so far. This is mainly theoretical.

[Temperjoke]

After playing one with a point buy system (my DM limits us to ten) I think I can say that having heavy armor (I had medium) seems like it would be needed for a class that has so few hitpoints and goes into melee combat. Though I could see them having an unarmored defense ability or talent.

Personally I'd like it to be Con and Int. Because I really don't want to pump dex when I plan on using strength as my melee damage source (or my secondary damage source under int).

Dex is so much better for the immortal and that really annoys me.

Well, Dex is the big go-to stat for just about everyone in 5e. It already affects AC on it's own, which is why the classes that get Unarmored Defense use it and another stat. But maybe that could be the unique way that Unarmored Defense would work for the Immortal Mystic, you can use your base AC + Int + your choice instead of Dex? Strength of Mind already allows for swapping saving throws proficiency, so it's not a stretch to think they could swap other things.

[Ralanr]

Well, Dex is the big go-to stat for just about everyone in 5e. It already affects AC on it's own, which is why the classes that get Unarmored Defense use it and another stat. But maybe that could be the unique way that Unarmored Defense would work for the Immortal Mystic, you can use your base AC + Int + your choice instead of Dex? Strength of Mind already allows for swapping saving throws proficiency, so it's not a stretch to think they could swap other things.

Can't I play my Great Axe swinging Half-orc Psion without wasting so much in dex?!

Damn my inability to accept having lower than a ten in an ability score! Though I could just dump charisma...but then I can't intimidate so much.

Side note: Sometimes Intimidate running off charisma is really stupid.

[Temperjoke]

Can't I play my Great Axe swinging Half-orc Psion without wasting so much in dex?!

Damn my inability to accept having lower than a ten in an ability score! Though I could just dump charisma...but then I can't intimidate so much.

Side note: Sometimes Intimidate running off charisma is really stupid.

Well, charisma is imposing your will upon the world, so to speak. You are trying to get people to do what you want, whether by deception, charming, or threats.


I think my ideas and thought processes about Immortal Mystics are sort of tainted by One Piece, I keep trying to think of the abilities in terms of Haki (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Haki), which can be used to armor oneself without actual armor.

What do you think about the talents? I kinda wish they related more directly to the subclass you choose, but it's nice to have options available regardless of your focus.

[Ralanr]

Well, charisma is imposing your will upon the world, so to speak. You are trying to get people to do what you want, whether by deception, charming, or threats.


I think my ideas and thought processes about Immortal Mystics are sort of tainted by One Piece, I keep trying to think of the abilities in terms of Haki (http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Haki), which can be used to armor oneself without actual armor.

What do you think about the talents? I kinda wish they related more directly to the subclass you choose, but it's nice to have options available regardless of your focus.

I see talents as basically invocations, which is the big reason why warlocks are my favorite casting classes (with Bard being second) due to the amount of customization you can get from them.

When I played, I took mind thrust and blade meld. Blade meld is flavorful but unimpactful, though I did make my character blade meld his spear so that he'll have a back up weapon in case he losses his hand axe (and it means I can use the hand axe to check for traps. Like throwing it at a chest as a mimic test).

Mind thrust is like repelling blast but more fun (for me anyway). Int saves aren't common so you'll be doing damage a relatively good amount of the time, and knocking people back ten feet is awesome. Kinda wish it was force damage instead of psychic since Mind thrust seems like something you should be able to use on doors to open them.

I've also developed the habit of shouting, "MIND THRUST!" whenever I use it. :smalltongue:

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I feel like the reason martial classes stick to being linear because the very thing they specialize in (combat) is linear in nature.

Fighting goblins and then fighting Mind Flayers is not a linear progression.

Fighting wolves and then fighting Balors is not a linear progression.

With the way they treat martials you might as well just pick up the NPC from the monster manual and tweak it on the fly.

[Shaofoo]

When I brought up short rests I meant that a fighter could nova their entire superiority dice in one encounter and get them all back after a short rest. A caster (beyond warlock) can't and thus conserves their spells. In campaigns where you get two short rests, then this works. But if the fighter is the only one who gets any benefits from short rests, then the party doesn't have a full reason to do a short rest after a fight.


Everyone benefits after a short rest, it is the only time where you can expend hit dice to recover lost HP. If the party is going strong after each encounter without a need to replenish their HP then either they are novaing or the encounters are too easy.


Fighting goblins and then fighting Mind Flayers is not a linear progression.

Fighting wolves and then fighting Balors is not a linear progression.

With the way they treat martials you might as well just pick up the NPC from the monster manual and tweak it on the fly.

I can't see a wizard that is supposed to take down a goblin and a wolf be able to suddenly take on a mind flayer or a Balor. And the game doesn't expect you to do so either.

It isn't linear progression, it is literal straight shot up the y axis the way you presented it. The game doesn't expect you to go from CR 1 to CR 20 in two fights. There is usually some sort of progression between the time where goblins are acceptable enemies and the time where Balors are acceptable enemies

I also don't see how is having a much less robust character be better than a fighter.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Everyone benefits after a short rest, it is the only time where you can expend hit dice to recover lost HP. If the party is going strong after each encounter without a need to replenish their HP then either they are novaing or the encounters are too easy.



I can't see a wizard that is supposed to take down a goblin and a wolf be able to suddenly take on a mind flayer or a Balor. And the game doesn't expect you to do so either.

It isn't linear progression, it is literal straight shot up the y axis the way you presented it. The game doesn't expect you to go from CR 1 to CR 20 in two fights. There is usually some sort of progression between the time where goblins are acceptable enemies and the time where Balors are acceptable enemies

I also don't see how is having a much less robust character be better than a fighter.

I don't think you understand what I mean.

As you level up, fighting against higher CR monsters needs more than just basic tactics. Moving and hitting works on goblins. However if you try that on mind flayers... Well you won't even get near them. You have to be able to find them, get through their plans, get through their minions, and then MAYBE fight the mind flayer.

And even then, when you fight the mind flayer, it isn't just going to stand there and let you hit it.

Goblins will swarm you, maybe, and stab you. Perhaps they run away when they aren't winning.

A mind flayer has so much more at their disposal that fighting them the same way is suicide for a martial. Because martials have no need for mental abilities (seriously, it is quite sad they didn't key Rogues with Int, Fighters with Wis, and Barbarians with Cha and gave their core classes some features) and they *need* physical scores to be high to stay relavent in one area that they can be decent at... Their mental scores will be low.

Run up an hit a mind flayer (IF you get the drop on them, not exactly easy)? Mind Blast will typically take out a martial. Stunned for 1 minute isn't a good thing when the dude can extract your brain.

Though I would go with Dominate Monster...

You just can't fight them the same way. The challenge is not a linear progression. Not only are they mechanically more impressive than the goblins but they are, roleplaying wise, more impressive than the goblins. You aren't ust going to walk up to them and be all like "hi, yo, soooo fight bro?"... They have an intelligence of 19 and wisdom/charisma of 17... If used even half way properly to their fluff and mental abilities then the martials are straight up screwed.

So now, it isn't a straight linear path from goblin to mind flayer, especially for martials.


(replace mind flayer with most intelligent high CR creatures in the MM)

[twas_Brillig]

The relative balance of classes is an interesting discussion, and some ideas have come out here that I don't think I've seen before. Can I suggest you guys bud off a new thread to keep the discussion from getting in the way of talking about psionics and vice versa?

[SharkForce]

I feel like the reason martial classes stick to being linear because the very thing they specialize in (combat) is linear in nature.

it doesn't have to be. though it is not too easy to make that work if you're absolutely determined that the fighter shall not be certain things. for example, when i suggested the fighter becoming a leader inherently (some months ago in a very different thread), people complained they don't want their fighter to be a leader. same if you suggest giving them supernatural but non-spellcasting abilities (like literally being able to move mountains or something like that). basically, i think the main problem is with the fighter in terms of what people are absolutely insistent that it is *not* more than an inherent inability for a martial class to become quadratic (though a proper system would have to involve a lot of DM discretion or an absurdly long list of powers, because giving fighters powers that function even remotely like spells also triggers people's "that's not a fighter" reflex).

in any event, this is indeed somewhat of a sidetrack.

i do still have to say that while the original* psionicist class from 2nd AD&D actually included the more warrior-y types of psionicist** (some of which could be ridiculously powerful), i do rather prefer having a separate class for the psychic warrior type of character. as for archetypes, well, that's not as hard as it sounds. psionics has always been divided into multiple disciplines... with the more warrior-oriented kits, they were usually restricted to psychokinetic, psychometabolic, or possibly psychoportation being their primary discipline. so you could easily make at least two, potentially three, archetypes just from that obvious split.

* pretty sure it was the original class anyways. from what i understand, earlier editions had psionics, but not a psionicist class, it was all just randomly rolled whether you had them or not.

** strictly speaking, apart from a multiclass or dual-class psionicist, all the warrior-y types of psionicist are actually kits from the dark sun setting i think. in fact, all of the psionicist kits in general are from the dark sun setting, if i'm not mistaken... i don't believe there are kits for the class anywhere else.

[Steampunkette]

I agree as do many of the folks on this board it seems. I think Psychic Warrior and Psion sharing a class has taken a lot of the various flavors away from the Psion that I really enjoyed in 3.5.

I don't know much about the Psychic Warrior but for the Psion I see the subclasses being chosen at level 1, psychics get telepathy, telekinetiscists get far hand, etc. There are a bunch of disciplines that are restricted to subclass, but there are also a decent number that are not, allowing a little bit of flexibility and mixing some of the less powerful abilities flavored for other subclasses.

I could see there being a set of kits tied to broader ideas than the narrower disciplines.

Like Medium as a kit, with special abilities that allow them to summon ghosts and interact with the dead that gives them bonuses when using the telepathic discipline and whatever the summoning discipline is, while a realm traveling soul projector class gains benefits with psychoportation and ethereal walking stuff...

Nothing to stop them from using the other disciplines, just better use of some.

[SharkForce]

strictly speaking, psionics traditionally really didn't *have* a summoning discipline until 3.x at which point they got astral constructs.

the closest thing before then i suppose would have been a combination of telepathy and psychoportation; you could use psychoportation to bring extraplanar creatures to you but you would have no control. you could use telepathy to control things (including extraplanar creatures potentially), but not to summon them. between the two disciplines, you could potentially mind control something, make it permanent with a metapsionics discipline (so now we're talking three disciplines, two of which require rather deep investments into before you can pull this stunt off - very high level), and then use a psychoportation power to enable those creatures to show up in a battle when you need them (in the meanwhile, their needs will have to be provided for some way or another).

there pretty much wasn't any sort of psionics that was particularly used for communicating with spirits and stuff like that either, i don't think. at least, not as far back as i know; i never played anything (except a couple video games that used the rules) before 2nd AD&D.

[Sitri]

I don't think anyone would argue, keeping the different psion disciplines like telepath, nomad, ect would be fantastic for the game. I don't see it happening due to the extremely limited release of crunch material though.

I would rather they hold out on this class until they were able to implement these types of specialties, but how likely is that? I wish they brought some more dedicated crunch guys on board.

There is a lot of room for some cool stuff to happen here, but it appears they are just going to break psionics into pseudo magic or physical buff focus. By defining the subclasses so broadly, it seems to me like they are limiting the subclass specialization options in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I love what I see of the Awakened so far, but taking it one step further and breaking up into the specialties of old would provide so much more from both a flavor and mechanical choice point of view.

[Steampunkette]

So we'd kind of need each of the following as a Discipline...

Clairsentience
Metacreativity
Psychokinesis
Psychometabolism
Psychoportation
Telepathy

And then Greater Disciplines that fine tune each of these concepts...

Clairsentience > Astral Projection and Divining
Metacreativity > Astral Summoning and Psychic Constructs
Psychokinesis > Elemental Kinetics and Telekinetics
Psychometabolism > Psychic Chirgury and Mind Over Body
Psychoportation > Spatial Alteration and Chronomancy
Telepathy > Mind Control and Mind Reading

That could be a pretty awesome setup for it all. And then have the character kits based off a few broader concepts that play into multiple Lesser Disciplines and tie to one or two of the Greater Disciplines for high end specialization.

Again using the Medium as an example:
When Manifesting a Clairsentience or Telepathy power, the Medium gains extended durations, lower cast times, better chance of having them succeed, etc. And then they get Divining and Mind Reading bonuses for their Greater Discipline level Kit abilities.

Could be pretty neat. Plus now I wanna make a Chronomancer. >.>

[Ralanr]

Could be pretty neat. Plus now I wanna make a Chronomancer. >.>

I just wanna make my psionic half-orc pugilist.

I don't know why, but whenever I think of Psionics, I just want to make a half-orc. Maybe I like the concept of a savage psionic. Or maybe I like half-orcs. Idk.

I can just imagine a half-orc in a texan accent beating people up with his brain and fists...oh the dream.

[Sitri]

I just wanna make my psionic half-orc pugilist.

I don't know why, but whenever I think of Psionics, I just want to make a half-orc. Maybe I like the concept of a savage psionic. Or maybe I like half-orcs. Idk.

I can just imagine a half-orc in a texan accent beating people up with his brain and fists...oh the dream.

I never understood flavor-wise why half giants were naturally psionic, but apparently a lot of people have taste similar to yours. I have seen that feature in a few games. Not exactly a half orc, but it does have that savage feel.

[Ralanr]

I never understood flavor-wise why half giants were naturally psionic, but apparently a lot of people have taste similar to yours. I have seen that feature in a few games. Not exactly a half orc, but it does have that savage feel.

I don't get that either.

[SharkForce]

I never understood flavor-wise why half giants were naturally psionic, but apparently a lot of people have taste similar to yours. I have seen that feature in a few games. Not exactly a half orc, but it does have that savage feel.

because half-giants weren't a thing until dark sun, and in dark sun all PCs were at minimum wild talents.

[Mordrigar]

As a Wizard, why shouldn't I dip 1 level into mystic?

Better Hit Dice
Proficiency on medium armors and two skills, probably some social skills or stealth/perception.

Order of the mind
-Thought Spear (Free!)
-Mind Melt (Free!)
-Beacon (Because everyone wants to shine as Gandalf the White)

Celerity: Just stay focused until combat starts, then turn into your other discipline.
Mind Vault: Get Heavy Armor Proficiency and wear plates all the time. At 1st round, use your bonus action and be proficient with your heavy armor. And of course you can always go with your medium armor + dex and use proficiency on other things.

All these goodies are for just 1 spell level.

Wizard 19 / Mystic 1 sounds well.

Only problem is, on which level should I dip? After 5 levels of Wizard sounds reasonable but I'm not sure.

[joaber]

any martial will want deep 1 lvl too.

mind meld + thought spear (that last not so usefull)
+Blade Meld or Light Step or Night Eyes (human with darkvision?)
+ 2 skill +1 double
+celerity or blindsight at will
when start the combat bonus action to get a magic weapon (at will)
+4d10 damage/day.

EK 13/ mystic 7 looks really good.

[ImperiousLeader]

As a Wizard, why shouldn't I dip 1 level into mystic?

Only problem is, on which level should I dip? After 5 levels of Wizard sounds reasonable but I'm not sure.

Given that there are no multiclassing rules for Mystics yet, you'd have to take Mystic first.

[Arkhios]

It just occured to me, that maybe the guys at Dev are actually playtesting psionics with similar methods that they did with arcane casters back in D&D Next playtest:
Mage used to be a thing, but then we got a bard, a sorcerer, a warlock, and a wizard. All these came from a one playtest class, technically.

Maybe... Just maybe the whole reason for the mystic as it is now, is to be a placeholder for future separate psionic classes, thus they have elements from both a psion and a psychic warrior, to figure out whether these things are balanced when compared with each other.

I can see it's easier to playtest a general concept of psionics with one class than with separate classes tackling same basic mechanics.

PS. If the above is true, even the class name "Mystic" is a joke played upon us: the results of this playtest are all still a big mystery to us! :smalltongue:

[8wGremlin]

QUESTION: How does Psionics interact with Stealth?

[Prince Zahn]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, just occurred to me some fun sentences you could say in 10 words or less for Occluded Mind (Conquering Mind discipline),

"These are not the Droids you are looking for" (9 words)
"The Floor is (made of) lava" (4-6 words).
"you're a wizard, *name*" (4 words easy)
"you owe me this" (4 words)
"I will make you an offer you can't refuse" (9 words)
"everything you know is a lie" (6 words; variations might require more)
"you are a chicken" (4 words)
"you are coming with us to Disneyland. " (7 words)
"you are late for your 5 o'clock root canal" (7-10 words)
"your mommy is calling you" (5 words)



The list goes on. Nothing is talking about disadvantage for being less believable, so anyone who wants Jedi mind tricks has a rare opportunity :P

[Arkhios]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, just occurred to me some fun sentences you could say in 10 words or less for Occluded Mind (Conquering Mind discipline),

"These are not the Droids you are looking for" (9 words)
"The Floor is (made of) lava" (4-6 words).
"you're a wizard, *name*" (4 words easy)
"you owe me this" (4 words)
"I will make you an offer you can't refuse" (9 words)
"everything you know is a lie" (6 words; variations might require more)
"you are a chicken" (4 words)
"you are coming with us to Disneyland. " (7 words)
"you are late for your 5 o'clock root canal" (7-10 words)
"your mommy is calling you" (5 words)



The list goes on. Nothing is talking about disadvantage for being less believable, so anyone who wants Jedi mind tricks has a rare opportunity :P

awesome! :D

[Shaofoo]

I don't think you understand what I mean.

As you level up, fighting against higher CR monsters needs more than just basic tactics. Moving and hitting works on goblins. However if you try that on mind flayers... Well you won't even get near them. You have to be able to find them, get through their plans, get through their minions, and then MAYBE fight the mind flayer.

And even then, when you fight the mind flayer, it isn't just going to stand there and let you hit it.

Goblins will swarm you, maybe, and stab you. Perhaps they run away when they aren't winning.

A mind flayer has so much more at their disposal that fighting them the same way is suicide for a martial. Because martials have no need for mental abilities (seriously, it is quite sad they didn't key Rogues with Int, Fighters with Wis, and Barbarians with Cha and gave their core classes some features) and they *need* physical scores to be high to stay relavent in one area that they can be decent at... Their mental scores will be low.

Run up an hit a mind flayer (IF you get the drop on them, not exactly easy)? Mind Blast will typically take out a martial. Stunned for 1 minute isn't a good thing when the dude can extract your brain.

Though I would go with Dominate Monster...

You just can't fight them the same way. The challenge is not a linear progression. Not only are they mechanically more impressive than the goblins but they are, roleplaying wise, more impressive than the goblins. You aren't ust going to walk up to them and be all like "hi, yo, soooo fight bro?"... They have an intelligence of 19 and wisdom/charisma of 17... If used even half way properly to their fluff and mental abilities then the martials are straight up screwed.

So now, it isn't a straight linear path from goblin to mind flayer, especially for martials.


(replace mind flayer with most intelligent high CR creatures in the MM)

You still seem to think that I should just transplant the 1st level character from the goblin scenario to face the mind flayer gauntlet.

Yes a mind flayer is much more impressive than a goblin but you should be mid level by the time you reach a mind flayer. You should have some new abilities that should help you out.

Also why do I have to rush in the front line? Can't I just sneak through the sentries and take out the mind flayer when he least expects it? It seems that you have a very limited view as to what entails a good combat, not all combat can be solved by rushing head along regardless. At least the Rogue should have been trying to take a good vantage point for battle.

Also your wizard should still have to burn through spell slots trying to get through the minions as well, he isn't supposed to be facing the mind flayer at 100% and funny you say mind flayer cause he has advantage and resistance to all magic, at least mind flayers aren't resistant to swords and arrows.

But this is off topic anyway.

[Malifice]

You still seem to think that I should just transplant the 1st level character from the goblin scenario to face the mind flayer gauntlet.

Yes a mind flayer is much more impressive than a goblin but you should be mid level by the time you reach a mind flayer. You should have some new abilities that should help you out.

Also why do I have to rush in the front line? Can't I just sneak through the sentries and take out the mind flayer when he least expects it? It seems that you have a very limited view as to what entails a good combat, not all combat can be solved by rushing head along regardless. At least the Rogue should have been trying to take a good vantage point for battle.

Also your wizard should still have to burn through spell slots trying to get through the minions as well, he isn't supposed to be facing the mind flayer at 100% and funny you say mind flayer cause he has advantage and resistance to all magic, at least mind flayers aren't resistant to swords and arrows.

But this is off topic anyway.

Spawnofmorbo seems to think there is some kind of objective power imbalance between a Wizard and a Fighter because at his table it exists.

I tried to suggest this could be due to his DM not enforcing the longer AD (a wizard with no spells left on encounter 4-7 due to nova blasting the first 1-3 encounters is just a dude in a pointy hat and a nightgown waving a stick around) but to no avail.

[8wGremlin]

Could you perhaps make another thread to talk about that subject and not threadjack this one. I'd appreciate it. thank you.

[Arkhios]

I tried to suggest this could be due to his DM not enforcing the longer AD (a wizard with no spells left on encounter 4-7 due to nova blasting the first 1-3 encounters is just a dude in a pointy hat and a nightgown waving a stick around) but to no avail.

If you wan't unlimited fireballs or whatever, go play World of Warcraft or something.

Spell slots are limited for a reason. You shouldn't be able to nova all day long in D&D. Heck, you're not even supposed to run into heated encounters one after another. An AD can include encounters that are easier than others. You don't have to spend all your huge AoE spells in order to survive a few goblins or otherwise mediocre encounter. You can, of course. But when you run out of those high level slots before BBEG (usually at the end of an AD), it's all on you. Sucks to be you. ;)

[Malifice]

If you wan't unlimited fireballs or whatever, go play World of Warcraft or something.

Spell slots are limited for a reason. You shouldn't be able to nova all day long in D&D. Heck, you're not even supposed to run into heated encounters one after another. An AD can include encounters that are easier than others. You don't have to spend all your huge AoE spells in order to survive a few goblins or otherwise mediocre encounter. You can, of course. But when you run out of those high level slots before BBEG (usually at the end of an AD), it's all on you. Sucks to be you. ;)

Indeed. But (to bring the conversation full circle) its a little dissapointing that they have built in a nova button into this new psionic class. 3.P Psionics had the same quirk (more so than spell casting).

It would be nice to have a short rest limit on the number of PP you cant spend or something. Or even have less PP but have them refresh on a short rest (like the warlock).

[Sitri]

It just occured to me, that maybe the guys at Dev are actually playtesting psionics with similar methods that they did with arcane casters back in D&D Next playtest:
Mage used to be a thing, but then we got a bard, a sorcerer, a warlock, and a wizard. All these came from a one playtest class, technically.

Maybe... Just maybe the whole reason for the mystic as it is now, is to be a placeholder for future separate psionic classes, thus they have elements from both a psion and a psychic warrior, to figure out whether these things are balanced when compared with each other.

I can see it's easier to playtest a general concept of psionics with one class than with separate classes tackling same basic mechanics.

PS. If the above is true, even the class name "Mystic" is a joke played upon us: the results of this playtest are all still a big mystery to us! :smalltongue:

I didn't know this. Sounds hopeful.

[Spiritchaser]

It would be nice to have a short rest limit on the number of PP you cant spend or something. Or even have less PP but have them refresh on a short rest (like the warlock).

How about somehing like

Level Points
1.............4
2.............5
3.............6
4.............7
5.............8
6............10
7............11
8.............12
9.............13
10...........14

[joaber]

How about somehing like

Level Points
1.............4
2.............5
3.............6
4.............7
5.............8
6............10
7............11
8.............12
9.............13
10...........14

taking spell points and warlock as a base, would be:


1.............2
2.............4
3.............6
4.............6
5.............10
6............10
7............12
8.............12
9.............14
10...........14
11.............21 - plus 9 long rest
12.............21 - plus 9 long rest
13.............21 - plus 19 long rest
14.............21 - plus 19 long rest
15.............21 - plus 30 long rest
16............21 - plus 30 long rest
17............28 - plus 43 long rest
18.............28 - plus 43 long rest
19.............28 - plus 43 long rest
20...........28 - plus 43 long rest

[Temperjoke]

QUESTION: How does Psionics interact with Stealth?

I'd say they interact with stealth the same as anything else does, as written.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Sorry to interrupt your discussion, just occurred to me some fun sentences you could say in 10 words or less for Occluded Mind (Conquering Mind discipline),

"These are not the Droids you are looking for" (9 words)
"The Floor is (made of) lava" (4-6 words).
"you're a wizard, *name*" (4 words easy)
"you owe me this" (4 words)
"I will make you an offer you can't refuse" (9 words)
"everything you know is a lie" (6 words; variations might require more)
"you are a chicken" (4 words)
"you are coming with us to Disneyland. " (7 words)
"you are late for your 5 o'clock root canal" (7-10 words)
"your mommy is calling you" (5 words)



The list goes on. Nothing is talking about disadvantage for being less believable, so anyone who wants Jedi mind tricks has a rare opportunity :P

My preferences may be a little less imaginative:


"You want to die. You want to die right now."
"I am your superior officer - you must obey me explicitly."
"You are the caretaker. You've always been the caretaker."
"I am your God, My Will Be Done."
"Everything you know is a lie."
"That's a doppelgänger, not your friend. You should kill it."

[Petrocorus]

* pretty sure it was the original class anyways. from what i understand, earlier editions had psionics, but not a psionicist class, it was all just randomly rolled whether you had them or not.

Pretty sure of this too.



** strictly speaking, apart from a multiclass or dual-class psionicist, all the warrior-y types of psionicist are actually kits from the dark sun setting i think. in fact, all of the psionicist kits in general are from the dark sun setting, if i'm not mistaken... i don't believe there are kits for the class anywhere else.
They did have their own complete (http://www.dndclassics.com/product/16891/PHBR5-The-Complete-Psionics-Handbook-2e?it=1), i don't think there was 128 pages with only one base class and no kit or variant option.


I don't think anyone would argue, keeping the different psion disciplines like telepath, nomad, ect would be fantastic for the game. I don't see it happening due to the extremely limited release of crunch material though.

Indeed, but given the Wizard has already 9 archetypes, the Monk and the Pally have 5 each if i count well, giving more than two archetype / classes to the psionics should be obvious. Especially if they want to release Dark Sun.



Psychokinesis > Elemental Kinetics and Telekinetics

If Psychokinesis could actually care about telekinesis and not just trying to blast, that would be great.



Psychometabolism > Psychic Chirgury and Mind Over Body
Telepathy > Mind Control and Mind Reading

Why Psychic Chirurgery would be in Psychometabolism and not Telepathy? Or do you mean psionic healing of some sort and not curing mental problems?




Spell slots are limited for a reason. You shouldn't be able to nova all day long in D&D. Heck, you're not even supposed to run into heated encounters one after another. An AD can include encounters that are easier than others. You don't have to spend all your huge AoE spells in order to survive a few goblins or otherwise mediocre encounter. You can, of course. But when you run out of those high level slots before BBEG (usually at the end of an AD), it's all on you. Sucks to be you. ;)
Which is actually the point of classes which have unlimited use of their main abilities and recover their usable ones on a short rest like the Fighter or the Warlock. I think the Wizard and likes are not supposed to use their big guns on every encounters.

[SharkForce]

the 2nd edition complete psionics handbook is also the *only* psionics handbook (apart from a dark sun supplement which expanded on psionics in that setting), and does in fact only have one class with no kits. though with 5 different psionic disciplines to specialize in (you can't specialize metapsionics), it is a lot like having 5 different kits in a way.

and traditionally, psychic chirurgery is actually metapsionics :P

(but if i had to choose a discipline for it, it interacted far more with telepathy than with anything else).

[Spiritchaser]

taking spell points and warlock as a base, would be:


1.............2
2.............4
3.............6
4.............6
5.............10
6............10
7............12
8.............12
9.............14
10...........14
11.............21 - plus 9 long rest
12.............21 - plus 9 long rest
13.............21 - plus 19 long rest
14.............21 - plus 19 long rest
15.............21 - plus 30 long rest
16............21 - plus 30 long rest
17............28 - plus 43 long rest
18.............28 - plus 43 long rest
19.............28 - plus 43 long rest
20...........28 - plus 43 long rest

Understood, but warlock gets invocations which are, for the moment, potentially superior to talents.

Assuming we start seeing talents with more power and with level limits to even this out... I'd propose
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
14
16
18
20
23
26
29
32
35
38
41...

Or some such for all SR points

[Sitri]

I'd say they interact with stealth the same as anything else does, as written.

In other words, you can just ignore stealth all together unless you establish some house rules up front.





Indeed, but given the Wizard has already 9 archetypes, the Monk and the Pally have 5 each if i count well, giving more than two archetype / classes to the psionics should be obvious. Especially if they want to release Dark Sun.



Has there been any talk of Dark Sun? I love that setting.

[SharkForce]

Has there been any talk of Dark Sun? I love that setting.

haven't seen anything from WotC. it is high up in the second tier of fan-favourite settings though, so it might be coming up soon. particularly since they're showing more of the psionics rules.

[Steampunkette]

I did mean chirgury as healing, yeah. The idea that you fix the mind and the body with psionic power.

[SharkForce]

I did mean chirgury as healing, yeah. The idea that you fix the mind and the body with psionic power.

psychic chirurgery is more about the mind than the body, at least in D&D.

[Sitri]

haven't seen anything from WotC. it is high up in the second tier of fan-favourite settings though, so it might be coming up soon. particularly since they're showing more of the psionics rules.

I haven't seen this tier system. Could you link/post something please?

[Temperjoke]

In other words, you can just ignore stealth all together unless you establish some house rules up front.



I didn't say that. What I mean is, does a particular ability state that it allows you to hit someone in stealth, or do you have to have line of sight? Does it give you an advantage on stealth checks? It's not any different when you're asking about a mystic's ability as opposed to a wizard's spell. Speaking generally, Mystic powers have no special distinction to stealth that isn't possible with class abilities that are in the PHB.

Now, if person who originally asked, had asked about a specific case of a specific ability affecting someone in a specific situation, then there might be a more detailed answer to give.


EDIT: Ah, seeing some of your other responses to other individual's posts, I'm sorry I wasted a more detailed answer on you.

[Sitri]

I didn't say that. What I mean is, does a particular ability state that it allows you to hit someone in stealth, or do you have to have line of sight? Does it give you an advantage on stealth checks? It's not any different when you're asking about a mystic's ability as opposed to a wizard's spell. Speaking generally, Mystic powers have no special distinction to stealth that isn't possible with class abilities that are in the PHB.

Now, if person who originally asked, had asked about a specific case of a specific ability affecting someone in a specific situation, then there might be a more detailed answer to give.


EDIT: Ah, seeing some of your other responses to other individual's posts, I'm sorry I wasted a more detailed answer on you.

Well if you follow twitter for clarifications, most spells, abilities, and even book text relating to hiding is completely meaningless and can be scrapped in favor of a couple of sentences. So even your examples in the paragraph you wasted on me wouldn't mean much.......

[8wGremlin]

I was asking about Stealth, primarily about hiding.

If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Mind Blade and Thought Spear, allow the target to make INT saving throws, or they take damage. Neither of these "attacks" hit, and as previously stated in the article Psionics don't make sound or have to wave their arms around (verbal or somatic components of a spell)

I was therefore asking if there was any specific rules that anyone had seen on how these two aspects interact.

[Ralanr]

I was asking about Stealth, primarily about hiding.

If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

Mind Blade and Thought Spear, allow the target to make INT saving throws, or they take damage. Neither of these "attacks" hit, and as previously stated in the article Psionics don't make sound or have to wave their arms around (verbal or somatic components of a spell)

I was therefore asking if there was any specific rules that anyone had seen on how these two aspects interact.

I remember seeing a narrative on reddit that showcased the effectiveness of a mystic assassin. No idea if it follows the full rules though.

Granted there is the stulker feat.

[SharkForce]

I haven't seen this tier system. Could you link/post something please?

it isn't anything formal. just observation.

for example, it should be extremely obvious to anyone paying attention that forgotten realms is their most popular setting, and the one they focus on the most by a significant margin. that doesn't necessarily mean it is *your* favourite setting, of course, just that lots of people like it for whatever reason.

in contrast, birthright has a very devoted group of fans, but i don't think WotC has even acknowledged the existence of the setting beyond giving birthright.net official status way back in the day.

the middle is, of course, a bit less clear. but basically, just take a look at the last few editions of D&D... if it got a setting book from WotC, it's probably towards the top of their list. if it didn't, well, i wouldn't hold your breath for this edition getting a book either. at least, not from WotC; who knows, maybe margaret weiss and tracy hickmann will license the rights for dragonlance again.

in any event, basically as i said, FR is hands down the favourite setting. after that, you have ravenloft, dark sun, probably planescape (they consistently talk about various locations from planescape anyways), greyhawk i think (not necessarily in that order, just they're all settings that have gotten *some* attention). greyhawk actually hasn't gotten much attention though, so maybe it isn't even on there any more. then i'd say you've got eberron and dragonlance (eberron might be slightly above, if only because they like to steal ideas from it like the artificer) and if greyhawk wasn't in the previous group, probably this is where it goes. not likely to get much attention, but likely to get acknowledged from time to time; a book will mention raistlin as a powerful mage, or talk about one of the powerful wizards in greyhawk, or something like that. you could probably bundle most of the "secondary settings" within forgotten realms here too; maztica, moonshae isles, kara-tur, living jungle of icantrememberthename, and so forth. then, you've got the settings that are basically totally forgotten; mystara/hollow world, spelljammer, birthright, ghostwalker, etc. these will *very* occasionally get brief mentions, or something will be stolen from them (4e had a spelljammer for example, but it was completely out of place and just randomly crammed into the planes book or something like that).

again, nothing formal. WotC probably doesn't have any memos at headquarters being passed around that forbid mentioning mystara or anything like that. but you can bet if anyone pitches releasing a mystara book to their bean counters, by the time they're desperate enough for material to consider releasing the mystara book they'll probably have taken everything they consider remotely worth publishing out of the mystara book and re-released it as forgotten realms content or something (oh hey look, conveniently an entire classic boxed set adventure just mysteriously disappeared from greyhawk and showed up in the forgotten realms with the serial numbers filed off, imagine that... and if you're not picking up on it, this is an event that has already happened, not something i'm suggesting could maybe happen in the future. so if you liked the temple of elemental evil, you should thank the people who wrote for greyhawk back in the day).

[Petrocorus]

the middle is, of course, a bit less clear. but basically, just take a look at the last few editions of D&D... if it got a setting book from WotC, it's probably towards the top of their list. if it didn't, well, i wouldn't hold your breath for this edition getting a book either. at least, not from WotC; who knows, maybe margaret weiss and tracy hickmann will license the rights for dragonlance again.

How many settings had their own line in 3.5 and 4E?
In 3.5, only FR and Eberron had it published by WotC. For Dragonlance, only the setting books was made by WotC, Weiss' company publishing the rest and Greyhawk was use for the Living Greyhawk promotional event and forgotten after that. It's much more forgotten now than the Forgotten Realms.



in any event, basically as i said, FR is hands down the favourite setting. after that, you have ravenloft, dark sun, probably planescape (they consistently talk about various locations from planescape anyways), greyhawk i think (not necessarily in that order, just they're all settings that have gotten *some* attention). greyhawk actually hasn't gotten much attention though, so maybe it isn't even on there any more.

Back in the 90s, TSR willingly undermined Greyhawk at some point and promoted FR, WotC didn't really give the setting its chance by not even releasing a campaign setting books for 3.5. The Greyhawk Atlas was published by a licensed third party and never supported.



then i'd say you've got eberron and dragonlance (eberron might be slightly above, if only because they like to steal ideas from it like the artificer) and if greyhawk wasn't in the previous group, probably this is where it goes. not likely to get much attention, ....

I never followed the 4E, but what setting got published and supported in this edition?



you could probably bundle most of the "secondary settings" within forgotten realms here too; maztica, moonshae isles, kara-tur, living jungle of icantrememberthename, and so forth. then, you've got the settings that are basically totally forgotten; mystara/hollow world, spelljammer, birthright, ghostwalker, etc.
To be fair, during ADD2, they probably were publishing too many setting for their own good. IIRC, they had, FR, Greyhawk, Al-Qadim (a part of FR), Birthright, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Planescape, Oriental Adventures (Kara-Tur, IIRC, another part of FR), and Mystara and Spelljammer were still a thing and maybe got support at the beginning of ADD2. I may be forgetting some.

[Arkhios]

This thread has gone waaay derailed since I don't even know when, but 4edition books were published at least for Eberron, though I think they mostly focused on their core world for the 4th edition; the world in which everything, that was within 4e hardcovers, would fit in. Basically the world was just about The Prime, Feywild, and Shadowfell between Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos.
I'm not sure if the world really had a name, but it had this theme Dawn War. (You may have seen it mentioned in 5e DMG, religion section).

Wizards did, however, publish Dragon Magazine Online for massive amounts of material for different settings, such as Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms. Might've had something for Dragonlance too, but I don't recall anything for Greyhawk (Pity).

[Theodoxus]

I'm pretty sure the original 4E setting was FR - with the Spellplague - or whatever that was...

I bought the three core books on pre-order, followed the game long enough to get the first splatbook and then fell in love with PF and never looked back. Never did get to even play a single game of 4E, and now no one I know would even consider it.

I'd be really nice if WotC did do a generic gameworld as you describe... but I guess I'll just have to run with that instead.

[Millstone85]

I think they mostly focused on their core world for the 4th edition; the world in which everything, that was within 4e hardcovers, would fit in. Basically the world was just about The Prime, Feywild, and Shadowfell between Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos.
I'm not sure if the world really had a name, but it had this theme Dawn War. (You may have seen it mentioned in 5e DMG, religion section).
I'm pretty sure the original 4E setting was FR - with the Spellplague - or whatever that was...Nope, it is as Arkhios said. The default 4e setting never got a proper name but it has been called Points of Light or Nentir Vale. They let the magazine explain how the god Bane from the 4e PHB, DMG and such was not the same god Bane from the 4e FR books, despite having the same name and symbols. As a new D&D player at the time, I was not amused.

[Arkhios]

I'm pretty sure the original 4E setting was FR - with the Spellplague - or whatever that was...

That is only part of the truth.

Forgotten Realms was in the spotlight yes, but only because WotC had this "bright" idea about replacing a well-established Living Greyhawk Organized Campaign (for RPGA) with something called Living Forgotten Realms (again, Organized Campaign for RPGA), for which they had to get all Faerûn go haywire with spellplague so that the new rules could fit in, effectively ruining years of enthusiasm for the fanbase who still, to this day, preferred the pre-spellplague Forgotten Realms. Because Living Greyhawk ceased to exist, Paizo decided to launch Pathfinder Society (with great success, since most Living Greyhawk regulars joined the movement, including myself, as I wasn't very impressed about what the forthcoming Living Forgotten Realms was going to be like), just before Living Forgotten Realms launched (IIRC); and it ended up being absolutely horrible. Now that 5th edition is out, WotC is trying to remedy the destruction they caused on Forgotten Realms. So far I've heard from the "ye olde" FR-fanbase that they're actually doing it right. (Good Job, WotC, though you should still be ashamed for what you did!)

However the case with spotlight on Forgotten Realms, that was never the actual core setting for 4th edition. It was this Nentir Vale/Points of Light thing. Backed up by the hardcover player's handbooks (1,2,3 and their splats - not sure if there was fourth even?), which were very vague about the world's own lore. I believe they wanted the players to make the actual lore for themselves. In itself, the idea wasn't so bad. The way they did it... well, it wasn't so great.

An opinion from a point of view that I have played 4th Edition quite a lot, actually:
The edition itself wasn't so bad. The mechanics were somewhat off compared to what I had grown used to from 3.X standpoint, but it wasn't that bad. You could still play with them, and it was fun, as long as we didn't bother with FR games. Eberron worked nice for us, as did the generic setting which could be stamped on top of any other, really. (But no forgotten realms, because how it was laid out in 4th edition, it just didn't feel like it was the same place anymore).

[Zalabim]

While my opinion is that FR lore has long and forever been awful, 4E's FR lore was especially bad. In defense of the points of light lore: After the Dawn War, Bane was so hungry for war that he crashed his divine realm into Gruumsh's realm in an attempt to claim ownership of the War portfolio. So two evil gods are locked in conflict because Bane crashed a Plane. There were supposed to be no survivors.

For the Mystic, it could try a limit on psi points spent per turn equal to its psi maximum, for a similar reason as the limit on spellcasting with bonus actions.

[Talamare]

On a successful save, the target takes half
damage from the attack, but suffers no additional
effects that would normally be imposed on a hit

GWM and Smite both say on a Hit, meaning if they save nothing happens.

Really you kinda just get halved weapon damage, which is like... 1d12+5 / 2? Not impressive
I also feel more comfortable with me rolling AC vs DM rolling a save, especially vs DMs who hide & fudge their rolls all the time

Overall, this class is feeling like a Psychic Paladin or Psychic Warlock

[Ralanr]

On a successful save, the target takes half
damage from the attack, but suffers no additional
effects that would normally be imposed on a hit

GWM and Smite both say on a Hit, meaning if they save nothing happens.

Really you kinda just get halved weapon damage, which is like... 1d12+5 / 2? Not impressive
I also feel more comfortable with me rolling AC vs DM rolling a save, especially vs DMs who hide & fudge their rolls all the time

Overall, this class is feeling like a Psychic Paladin or Psychic Warlock

I'm seeing more psychic warlock. The talents feel a lot like invocations (mind thrust is basically a single target repelling blast. Which is really fun but not as powerful).

[bogsnes]

I was considering rolling up one of these in a campaign I'm part of (would be level 3), and was thus considering making an awakened mystic. However, I can't really see what you are supposed to do in combat besides tossing out 1d8 damage a turn until you hit level 5 if you don't want to use the psionic blade discipline. Am I missing something? Because it seems to me as though the class has really few options in combat until level 5 if you aren't going melee.

[MaxWilson]

I was considering rolling up one of these in a campaign I'm part of (would be level 3), and was thus considering making an awakened mystic. However, I can't really see what you are supposed to do in combat besides tossing out 1d8 damage a turn until you hit level 5 if you don't want to use the psionic blade discipline. Am I missing something? Because it seems to me as though the class has really few options in combat until level 5 if you aren't going melee.

Well, you know, anybody at all can use a crossbow for d8+Dex or d10+Dex at low levels. You lose out on proficiency bonus to-hit if you use a heavy crossbow without proficiency, but it's only +2, not a big deal IMO.

[bogsnes]

Yeah, but every other class option has better options at lower levels in combat at least part of the time. A sorcerer might use a crossbow a decent portion of the time, but he can at least supplement the crossbow with spells. I'm not seeing what the mystic is doing except shooting with their crossbow turn after turn.

EDIT: And even after level 5 it's not like you have a lot of options then either - you can keep on pewpewing, or you have somewhere between 3-5 options for cc in the entire class, not to mention you might not have access to all the disciplines required to use them all.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, but every other class option has better options at lower levels in combat at least part of the time. A sorcerer might use a crossbow a decent portion of the time, but he can at least supplement the crossbow with spells. I'm not seeing what the mystic is doing except shooting with their crossbow turn after turn.

Oh, I see your point. Hold on, let me review the psionics doc...

The only non-weapons-related thing that I can see for psionicists to do in combat is to use Occluded Mind for 2 psi points. "You cannot possibly survive this battle unless you surrender now." That's pretty thin, but at least it's flexible enough that you'll get a lot of mileage out of it.

[MeeposFire]

Mystara has several strikes against it.

1) not different enough with a casual glance to suggest using it over something like FR.

2) It was the setting accociated with D&D and not AD&D and while D&D has some references (if you look carefully enough) most of what has been continued is effectively based out of AD&D (which technically did get a version of Mystara but did not really get a chance to build anything).

3) It is technically Dave Arnesons campaign (well modified anyway) and one of the reasons and back during AD&D days that was a good reason not to use it. Coincidentally during 2e days that was also one of the reasons Greyhawk was mostly ignored so that they could avoid Gygax.

Greyhawk is slightly luckier due to being associated with Gygax over Arneson (more people know Gygax than Arneson), it was used with AD&D rather than D&D, and it uses a more "standard" gods system over immortals. Oddly despite not being seen again it is one of the better supported settings having lots of modules, gazetteers, and even video games made for it (really good ones too).



As for 4e In addition to the generic home setting (which is not really detailed much on purpose) it also used FR, Eberron, and Dar Sun.

Forgotten Realms was not really popular with older FR folks who hated the changes (which granted is often true many hated it when they did the Time of Troubles too though not quite as much). Newer players depended on many factors. The changes were not made specifically because 4e demanded them, it is actually how the Realms traditionally handles things. Whenever the rules change FR attempts to explain the changes by a cosmic event such as The Time of Troubles or the Spell Plague. Notice that they have the same philosophy with the books where if something happens in the books officially it happens in the realms. Unfortunately the writers decided to do this in 4e too and took it to the extreme.

They did not do that to Eberron. Unlike FR Eberron is written with the idea that outside of what was in the setting books many things are unexplained and would remain so. Unlike FR when a novel gives an answer to one of the many questions in the setting it is NOT official. Events in one novel by one author do not necessarily apply in another authors story and a DM could choose to ignore it and it was officially no issue as Eberron does not advance the story line. In the 4e transfer they kept this philosophy and so Eberron stayed mostly unchanged. It was fairly well liked though sadly the book was relatively lite in the fluff dept and some things did not transfer over very well if they heavily influenced by 3e specific design (as Eberron unlike any other edition was designed using quirks of 3e design).

Lastly they really pushed Dark Sun which was at first a surprise. It was relatively obscure and some thought that it would not translate well nice 4e characters are so survivable. Honestly it is one of the best renditions of the setting. The high powered enemies can give 4e characters are relative challenge. Many mechanics that really don't work too well in 2e work much better here (tougher characters mean you don't have to give crazy stats to make powerful characters). One example is lack of magic items. The inherent bonuses found here (and the DMG2) allow the first time where magic items are fully optional and you are not feeling like you are really missing something. The Dark Sun setting book in all honesty was the BEST setting book in 4e and if you play 4e I recommend reading and using it.


To me each edition has a setting that really represent what it is. It is not always its most popular setting (though it can be) but it is the setting that uses the edition best and shows off what it can do. In my opinoin these are the settings for some of the more well known editions (your opinion may vary).

D&D- Mystara

AD&D 1e- Dragonlance/Forgotten Realms

AD&D2e- Forgotten Realms

3e-Eberron

4e-Dark Sun (yes originally a 2e game but I think it works very well as a 4e game).

5e-unknown really

[Regitnui]

Well, I'd not let players use this, but I'd certainly use it for the Eberron setting's psionic bad guys; the Inspired. Going from that, I'd reckon WoTC'd drop Eberron first, then Dark Sun. In Eberron psionics are available and built into the setting while still allowing the traditional magic classes a place. Dark Sun is deeply involved in psionics, so they released Eberron, let the customers test the psionic waters, and if they see a lot of praise and fun in the psionic part of Eberron, they can release Dark Sun's more psionics-centered setting.

[Steampunkette]

I just woke up from a vivid dream about this.

A world where Magic is new. Where Psionics are as old as the seas. Where Githyanki and Githzerai are as common as Elves and Dwarves and have the same sort of enmity toward each other. Where the Dreaming Path fights against the Nightmare Road, for in the darkened hours of the night and the inky blackness of the world below the surface the Illithid prepare endless plans to dominate. A place where the Sunset Sea rolls against the emerald sands, and where Men have only recently arrived.

In the beginning, it was a world of dreams, floating in a plane of nightmares. For here, in ancient times, came the dreaming minds of the peoples of a hundred hundred worlds. Their fantasies shaped the reality of this world, and gave it form and substance. Substance that eventually became real and stable, unaltered by further minds which visited it. Gods Came. And Gods sent their children to the world, claiming it was their work rather than the dreaming minds of mortals.

The Titans, great beasts and beings of power rebelled. A crystalline king born of Ruby stood fast against the Gods and died at their hands, his immense form shattered to sand, scattered across the Sunset Sea to give it it's hue, and leave the Red Sands beside. An immense desert in the western reaches. His brother died, long after, at his shores, and gave his emerald form to the grasses and trees that encroach upon both the Sunset Sea and the Red Sands.

The gods, angered that the mortal kind allied with the titans Tore what magic they could from the world and left the vestiges in tatters. The great ships which carried their progeny to this world failed, and remain as ancient hulks often used as communities, their hulls rebuilt endlessly as wars are waged over them.

The Psychic Warrior, the Psion, and the Mystic were each the Paladin, the Wizard, and the Bard in the world, wanderers and warriors, teachers and historians. And it was to them to witness the great night of Skyfire. When an armada of human skyships fell, their magic unable to support their flight within the deadness of the world. Soon men and elves, dwarf and orc would learn what it meant to be upon a world built of dreams.

The Dreaming Path, The Valley of Slumber, and the Nightmare Road are each psionic philosophies and groups. Those who are said walk the Dreaming Path are heroes, good of heart and active in the world to propose harmony. Those who race the Nightmare Road, however, are followers of the Illithid Cults, cruel and twisted beings who seek to fulfill the aberrant wishes of their dark masters. Those who rest in the Valley of Slumber, however, are unpredictable. They represent an array of intents that do not entirely line up with either the Dreaming Path or the Nightmare Road. Some wander to learn. Others protect their homes. And a few seek chaos or death.

To the North, the Sunrise. To the South its setting. And the East and West hold bitter poles of cold. The world and all that is in it is viewed as a scroll, laid out beneath the eye of the heavens, ever scanned in the light from top to bottom.

Impossible vistas, floating mountains, red deserts, green rivers, and forests of blue and silver... a world of dreams made manifest, where nightmares themselves crouch in the shadow. What would you make of it?

[Kane0]

Firstly what did you take before you slept, secondly do you have any spare and thirdly will this world be at some stage developed and released to the public?

[Steampunkette]

I ate a garlic bread pizza before I fell asleep.

I have another in the oven, now, 'cause Hubbers is Hungry.

Maybe? Anyone know anyone who'd be interested in helping me flesh out the world for the DMs Guild, maybe?

[Petrocorus]

I ate a garlic bread pizza before I fell asleep.

I have another in the oven, now, 'cause Hubbers is Hungry.

Garlic bread? In pizza? Very dangerous, indeed.



Maybe? Anyone know anyone who'd be interested in helping me flesh out the world for the DMs Guild, maybe?

Your problem is that you heavily need psionics and psionics are not fleshed out yet. Everything you do could need to be changed in a few month it they finally officially release the psionics.

[Mith]

Neat idea. I like it. Not sure how good I would be for fleshing things out though.

[Steampunkette]

Your problem is that you heavily need psionics and psionics are not fleshed out yet. Everything you do could need to be changed in a few month it they finally officially release the psionics.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477941-Psionic-Warrior-(Mystic-UA-Inspired)

*innocent whistle*

[Kane0]

I've been tinkering with an alternate Mystic based loosely off of what's been released, anyone interested?

HP: 1d8
Profs: Light armor, simple weapons
Saves: Int, Wis
Skills: 2 of Arcana, History, Insight, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Religion



Level
Prof
Special
PP
Lesser Disc.
Greater Disc.


1
2
Talents, Psionic Disciplines
2
1
-


2
2
Mystical Recovery, Psionic Focus
4
1
-


3
2
Subclass I
5
2
-


4
2
ASI
6
2
-


5
3
While Focused I
10
2
1


6
3
Subclass II
14
2
1


7
3
Mind over Matter
15
3
1


8
3
ASI
17
3
1


9
4
Consumptive Power
23
3
2


10
4
Subclass III
27
3
2


11
4
While Focused II
30
4
2


12
4
ASI
32
4
2


13
5
Quick Focus
35
4
3


14
5
Subclass IV
38
4
3


15
5
Ageless
41
5
3


16
5
ASI
44
5
3


17
6
While Focused III
50
5
4


18
6
Subclass V
57
5
4


19
6
ASI
60
5
4


20
6
Capstone
64
5
4



Talents: Psionic Cantrips
Disciplines: Each one grants two powers fueled by PP, plus a third triggered by expending focus. Expenditure limit = 2x prof bonus
Mystic Recovery: During a short rest, recover 1 PP for every Hit Die spent to heal
Psionic Focus: Spend action to get focused, small benefit while focused, enables discipline and class abilities
Subclass I: Awakened (+1 Skill, +1 Tool, +1 Language, +2 Talents) or Immortal (Medium armor, Shields, Martial Weapons,
ASI: Same as everyone else
When Focused I: X benefit while focused
Subclass II: Awakened (+1 PP per Mystic level) or Immortal (Extra Attack)
Mind Over Matter: Half proficiency to Str, Dex and Con saves
Consumptive Power: Action to trade HP for PP on a 4:1 basis, max of Prof bonus PP gained in one use.
Subclass III: Awakened (Int bonus to Talent damage) or Immortal (+1d8 psychc damage on weapon hits)
When Focused II: X benefit while focused
Quick Focus: Get focused as bonus action
Subclass IV: Expend Focus for X benefit
Ageless: Immortality
When Focused III: X benefit while focused
Subclass V:
Capstone:

Fair bit of work to do, most of the disciplines can be adapted though which is good. Reckon its worth it?

[Vogonjeltz]

But if the fighter is the only one who gets any benefits from short rests, then the party doesn't have a full reason to do a short rest after a fight.

Healing from Hit Dice happens on a short rest. Unless literally no one is taking damage, which I'd reject as implausible, that's going to be quite important. The only other means of healing require long rest spell slots or expensive potions that are more useful when you don't have the renewable resource of hit dice.


I don't think you understand what I mean.

As you level up, fighting against higher CR monsters needs more than just basic tactics. Moving and hitting works on goblins. However if you try that on mind flayers... Well you won't even get near them. You have to be able to find them, get through their plans, get through their minions, and then MAYBE fight the mind flayer.

And even then, when you fight the mind flayer, it isn't just going to stand there and let you hit it.

Goblins will swarm you, maybe, and stab you. Perhaps they run away when they aren't winning.

A mind flayer has so much more at their disposal that fighting them the same way is suicide for a martial. Because martials have no need for mental abilities (seriously, it is quite sad they didn't key Rogues with Int, Fighters with Wis, and Barbarians with Cha and gave their core classes some features) and they *need* physical scores to be high to stay relavent in one area that they can be decent at... Their mental scores will be low.

Run up an hit a mind flayer (IF you get the drop on them, not exactly easy)? Mind Blast will typically take out a martial. Stunned for 1 minute isn't a good thing when the dude can extract your brain.

Though I would go with Dominate Monster...

You just can't fight them the same way. The challenge is not a linear progression. Not only are they mechanically more impressive than the goblins but they are, roleplaying wise, more impressive than the goblins. You aren't ust going to walk up to them and be all like "hi, yo, soooo fight bro?"... They have an intelligence of 19 and wisdom/charisma of 17... If used even half way properly to their fluff and mental abilities then the martials are straight up screwed.

So now, it isn't a straight linear path from goblin to mind flayer, especially for martials.


(replace mind flayer with most intelligent high CR creatures in the MM)

What you've described is entirely removed from my place experience. In terms of combat (at least) every encounter has been an exercise in total domination by the Fighter.

The mystic so far looks like a fun and varied class. I look forward to seeing the level 20 draft version.