OOTS #1021 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Sniper Jo]

Aw, look at Scruffy and Bloodfeast. Good to see the animal companions being friends.
Also "I don't know what's weirder" is one of the funniest lines in this comic so far.

[Valynie]

why the frowny face ?

[Crusher]

Well, V approves of the "intentionally misreading the scroll" tactic. Must be kosher.

[hroþila]

I love Talky Vaarsuvius comics, especially when they also have a good dose of Blackwing.

Also "I don't know what's weirder" is one of the funniest lines in this comic so far.
Indeed.

[_Jarlaxle_]

Bugsby's Cat retrieving hand :D

[Ivrytwr]

Aww, all of the emotional growth and bonding.
I would think V should have warned Haley and Elan prior to racing off.
Thanks Giant!

[Shining Wrath]

Character growth for V and B continues. And now the cavalry is on its way to help Belkar, depending on how things are going with the goliath-vampire. I don't think V is going to allow a vampire to tell hir that access is denied.

Also, "BigbyBugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand" FTW.

[endur]

It's a long list of flaws. :)

[paladindim]

Ok, how do they gonna enter to deliver the tiger?

(Also, first page!)

[War-Wren]

Ha! Awesome comic (and I happen to be online when it drops too! Winning!!).

I love the interaction between V and Blackwing. Character growth! Character growth, everywhere! :smallbiggrin:

Great to see the world's most precise spell make another appearance, making it more useful than Hold Portal!

[Shining Wrath]

Ok, how do they gonna enter to deliver the tiger?

(Also, first page!)

I believe V's alignment is CN or TN. And we've already seen that vampire-Creed of Stone members are fair game. Therefore, any vampire at the gate who tries to deny V access is going to eat Evocations and die.

[Ditto]

Typo in V's speech, panel 5. Extra word lurking in there.

[Psyren]

V's math is on point as usual :smallbiggrin:

Blackwing's lines are solid platinum.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Gotta say, it was pretty nice to walk out of an exam and find this update. Thank you! Definitely a nice mix of character development, acknowledgement of said development, and humor. And incoming ass-kicking now that V is entering the fray.

[Shining Wrath]

Wouldn't a potion of healing work on a tiger? The kind that the Mechane has a hold full of?

[Roger_Druid]

Hi!

Couldn't help but point to V saying "... we both have flaws upon which we are must ..." instead of "... we both have flaws upon which we must ...",

Roger

[Agi Hammerthief]

Wouldn't a potion of healing work on a tiger? The kind that the Mechane has a hold full of?
Won't help with the CON drain.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Wouldn't a potion of healing work on a tiger? The kind that the Mechane has a hold full of?

In 3.5 a vampire bite causes constitution drain. They don't have potions for that.

[declinator]

I believe V's alignment is CN or TN.

TN it is (edit: Source: Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209334-Is-Varsuuvius-Lawful-Chaotic-or-True-Neutral/page10&p=11664984#post11664984) via Class and Levels Geekery Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended)).

Also, I find Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast absolutely adorable. And the rats managed to chew little holes in Bloodfeast's hide (he should have as much HP in this form as in T-Rex form).

[Velazquez]

The fourth panel is just beautiful.

[IDrankWHAT]

Well, that definitely wasn't what everybody thinking with Bloodfeast! But the fact that Blackwing has come to terms with his bauble insecurities means that the healing can finally begin.

[Valynie]

Wouldn't a potion of healing work on a tiger? The kind that the Mechane has a hold full of?

The tiger is Hit Dice drained. Potions of healing only cure Hit Points damage

[Kantaki]

:smallbiggrin:V proves that a true wizard is always prepared for feline-carrying duties. And Blackwing paraphrases Harry Potter?

V's excuse to Blackwing would have been better had she stopped a bit earlier, but I'm sure he won't repeat it.

And are Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast bonding over this carnage? That is really cute.

[Ravens_cry]

I know Vaarsuvius is prone to loquaciousness, but "upon which we are must continue to improve" sounds rather . . . off. Typo?

[Kancsar]

Hoorah for V finally getting in the game. Does his raised eyebrow suggest he has correctly surmised the nature of the off-brand Durkon-like vampire, and will go to the moot ready for more trouble? or will his near total lack of knowledge-religion mean he'll assume the Goliath Vampire is supposed to be there?

[zimmerwald1915]

I know Vaarsuvius is prone to loquaciousness, but "upon which we are must continue to improve" sounds rather . . . off. Typo?
That "are" doesn't belong.

[Lheticus]

Don't really have much to say other than someone needs to add this to the comic's Heartwarming section on TV Tropes, even with the failure to "quit while ahead." But woo first page!

[LarsWester]

Hi!

Couldn't help but point to V saying "... we both have flaws upon which we are must ..." instead of "... we both have flaws upon which we must ...",

Roger

I chose to think this is a very META part of the post. I believe the are is supposed to be all. But when reading what he is saying there and the typo. It is very META indeed as if Rich is including himself, and possibly inviting the reader by self reflection, in the misspelled all.

**Also happy to get this reflection in on 1st page as there will probably be over 100 people commenting about the "typo".

[Peelee]

I'm really enjoying the new dynamic between Blackwing and V.

[Silferdrake]

Good one, love the interactions between V and Blackwing. I am also very much relieved that the animal companions made it out of there alive.

[Marp]

I'm really enjoying the new dynamic between Blackwing and V.

Me too.

I like how V seems pretty calm and not very worried about the fact that a vampire infiltrated the ship, summoned a swarm of rats and stole the very important teleport orb, and just focuses on helping Little Whiskers like Blackwing asked :smallsmile:.

[Quild]

I'm really enjoying the new dynamic between Blackwing and V.

I couldn't say it better.

[talkamancer]

I must say I do love the continued use of Bugsby's spells. Some of the oldest D&D spells there are.

[137beth]

Huzzah, my favorite spell makes a comeback!

[IDrankWHAT]

You know, I just had a weird feeling that the Trio of Evil Fiends (TOEF HA!) are somehow going to come into play and stop V as he's trying to stop Durkula and his gaggle of vampires from getting to the Dwarven homelands.

[Martok]

Great comic today -- an excellent combination of both funny and heartwarming. V and Blackwing are both awesome in this one.

[Ravens_cry]

That "are" doesn't belong.
My thought exactly.

[BedlamEnsues]

In addition to the typo already mentioned in panel 5. "appreciate" is misspelled in panel 10.

Loved the comic today!

[Spoomeister]

Typo in penultimate panel: Blackwing says "apprectiate"; should be appreciate.

This strip was very sweet. And I don't think it would have been as sweet without previous gradual-character-growth moments for both of them over the years. Nicely done.

[Basement Cat]

I wonder if Veldrina is able to leave the Godsmoot because she represents an entire pantheon and thus there's a loophole that would let her step out of the confines.

Or maybe V will simply bring Little Whiskers all the way to her. That could work, sure.

[Ezekiel]

I wonder if Veldrina is able to leave the Godsmoot because she represents an entire pantheon and thus there's a loophole that would let her step out of the confines.


Since she's already passed on the Western vote, I would think she could leave.

[Emperordaniel]

It's the triumphant return of Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand!

[LunarDrop]

Great comic, as usual. I love Vaarsuvius and it's great to see the character development here. (BlackWing is most definitely right that V would be pissed before if he had wasted the scroll)

Also, the BlackWing lines are getting better. ("I'm a wizard, Harry" and "I don't know what's weirder" being my new two favorite BlackWing lines of all time.)

Great way to start off the week, thanks Rich.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since she's already passed on the Western vote, I would think she could leave.
Oh? All the Northern gods and demigods have already voted, and there's no taking back those votes. What reason is there for their priests to remain, that also allows Veldrina to leave?

More likely, the force construct can pass the barrier, or if it can't, V will end up gently tossing Whiskers through.

[dmc91356]

Quit while you are ahead is excellent advice all the way around, not just for talking to your familiar.

:smallbiggrin:

[wumpus]

I believe V's alignment is CN or TN. And we've already seen that vampire-Creed of Stone members are fair game. Therefore, any vampire at the gate who tries to deny V access is going to eat Evocations and die.

I'm fairly sure the Giant has declared V to be TN. I can't see any case where V acted in a way to see a clear difference between the two (not enough panels in cities, I guess). In threads asking how CN "should be played", I would strongly recommend playing like V (instead of Thog or Belkar, which is the "CN PC" stereotype).

[ithildur]

I chose to think this is a very META part of the post. I believe the are is supposed to be all. But when reading what he is saying there and the typo. It is very META indeed as if Rich is including himself, and possibly inviting the reader by self reflection, in the misspelled all.




Ooook... sure.

More likely it's a typo... But great episode regardless.

[Peelee]

Oh? All the Northern gods and demigods have already voted, and there's no taking back those votes. What reason is there for their priests to remain, that also allows Veldrina to leave?

More likely, the force construct can pass the barrier, or if it can't, V will end up gently tossing Whiskers through.

While i agree with you, just to play Devil's Advocate...


Veldrina herself was not voting or acting as proxy for a vote. She was conveying the vote of her pantheon. Even if you wish to claim that all high priests are glorified messengers in this way, they are relaying their god's vote, which is not the ultimate vote of the pantheon. As it is a different situation, different rules might apply; her message was a final, conclusive vote, while the high priests' proxy votes are merely attempting to arrive at a final, conclusive vote. Nothing is yet settled, so they must remain convened until it is.

[wumpus]

V's going alone (well, with Blackwing this time) against a deadly foe, again? Wasn't last time against Xykon enough?

Best guess is that while the giant isn't bothering with the minute detail of the class & level geekery, the Stickverse still runs on the D&D rules, meaning that there is no point in taking Haley to a vampire fight. V is unlikely to see any use in Elon, and probably doesn't have the magic to boot. Best guess the plan is to join up with Roy, and what will happen is that the dwarven homeland will be close enough to get there just as plot happens.

[Bluepaw]

I'm particularly fond of Bloodfeast's (first?) dialogue... and of trying to imagine exactly what a polymorphed tyrannosaur would sound like.

Edit: Dingaling! The time of the Orc is at hand...

[Malfarian]

Bravo, beautifully drawn, excellent work! A really nice "personal" connection for the two and growth of V and BW.

Thank you Giant!

[Elenna]

Just wanted to say that I really adored this strip.

V and Blackwing are two of my favorite characters, their discussion of flaws was great, panel 4 is ridiculously cute, and I loved Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand and the joke at the end.

Great strip, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Oh? All the Northern gods and demigods have already voted, and there's no taking back those votes. What reason is there for their priests to remain, that also allows Veldrina to leave?

More likely, the force construct can pass the barrier, or if it can't, V will end up gently tossing Whiskers through.

The Southern and Western pantheons are NOT going to allow their entire pantheon's vote to be cancelled by one lucky disintegrate or finger of death or planeshift or even suggestion or dominate or whatever causing their representative to die or leave or even to never make it there in the first place.

Northern pantheon godsmoot rules on who can leave and the like almost certainly can't arbitrarily cancel votes from entire other pantheons.

Veldrina may not be allowed to leave, but if so it's due to the "no one with an official role can leave" clause and just applies to her personally. Not because of the rules on high priests and their votes.

[Droopy McCool]

If Veldrina can leave, perhaps Little Whiskers getting hurt will give her a reason to join the Order to go kick some vampire butt.

Also, the line "No, some off-brand version." is fantastic.

Thank you Giant!

[EccentricFellow]

Wahhahaha! That was a good laugh. Even though, or possibly because, as V started talking, you just knew it would end like that. It was still most delightful. A great Monday moment.

[Keltest]

V and Blackwing have to be my favorite two characters in the comic. Truly their potential for wit is limitless.

[JoeyTheNeko]

ah blackwing, you are my favorite.

[ace rooster]

I'm guessing the "I don't know what's weirder" line has been on it's way for a while, and was the main reason another cat was introduced! Great setup, as always.

[theNater]

Also "I don't know what's weirder" is one of the funniest lines in this comic so far.
Truly, it is an example of all that is good and right in the world, and I thank The Giant for bringing it to us.


V's going alone (well, with Blackwing this time) against a deadly foe, again? Wasn't last time against Xykon enough?
The vampire stole a teleport orb and flew away. He could be literally anywhere at this point. Vaarsuvius has no reason to believe that seeking Veldrina will require conflict with the vampire.

[Anarion]

I love V and Blackwing's banter. Also Scruffy patting the Dino. So cute.

[Monstar3014]

New comic is up.


Mr. Giant,

Can this phrase from V be fixed?

"I will accept, in compromise, that we both have flaws upon which we are must continue to improve."

I don't think the "are" is supposed to be there.

[Ron Miel]

I'm guessing the "I don't know what's weirder" line has been on it's way for a while, and was the main reason another cat was introduced! Great setup, as always.

No, Vel & Whiskers were invented by a reader, and included as a kickstarter bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#6eam4vhlOtdyflgooaB).

[Sermil]

Wow, look at V getting all high-level-wizardly. "Walking is for people who don't have magic." I don't think I remember hem using flying-as-a-normal-mode-of-transportation except when channeling the IFCC's souls.

Subtle, but the heroes are getting more powerful.

[Keltest]

Wow, look at V getting all high-level-wizardly. "Walking is for people who don't have magic." I don't think I remember hem using flying-as-a-normal-mode-of-transportation except when channeling the IFCC's souls.

Subtle, but the heroes are getting more powerful.

V has regularly been flying since at least the last book, perhaps longer.

[Unkillable_Cat]

One "out of left field" question - is it possible that the vampire's attack upon Whiskers could somehow count as an attack against Veldrina, and therefore have an impact upon the Godsmoot?

[Aegis J Hyena]

V's final line is priceless. Blackwing STILL gets no love. ;)

There's so much character growth, I think the Mechane is leaking some out... heh.

[Goosefarble]

This was definitely one of the funniest strips! I loved both the final gag and the joke about Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand

[PoeticDwarf]

I believe V's alignment is CN or TN. And we've already seen that vampire-Creed of Stone members are fair game. Therefore, any vampire at the gate who tries to deny V access is going to eat Evocations and die.

TN, yeah, it is pretty much just some vampires out there. I even think the life of Belkar can be saved by V

[Shining Wrath]

One "out of left field" question - is it possible that the vampire's attack upon Whiskers could somehow count as an attack against Veldrina, and therefore have an impact upon the Godsmoot?

I don't think so, for much the same reason that attacks against Gontor & friends didn't count. Either you have an official role at the moot, or you don't. Pet tigers don't have an official role.

ALTHOUGH THEY SHOULD.

[Lorkas]

Yuh oh--looks like some possible structural damage to the Mechane.

[8BitNinja]

Wow, that's a long apology/forgiving

Even I don't apologize for that long

[ChillerInstinct]

I'm looking forward to Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand making a dramatic entrance in a climactic battle in the future. Fighting's going poorly, then all of a sudden, RANDOM PUMA STRIKE!

So presumably this is where V runs into Belkar, who tells hir about Durkon killing Gontor, giving hir just cause to blast the Goliath and waltz in to Roy and Veldrina (the best part is, if the HPoH used ALL of the vampires INSIDE the building as a distraction there's no worry of V getting hit by the Vampirific Gaze).

...Also, is it wrong that I tend to do a lot like V did during the punchline and, when trying to convince my friends that they caused me no misfortune, I try to comfort them by telling them that it wouldn't even had made LOGICAL sense to leave them to their trouble? I suppose in this case, the alternative was Blackwing DYING compared to, well, whatever inconvenience I try to help them out with, but still.

[8BitNinja]

What if the vampires started running, and then just so happened to run into the Azure city fleet?

Lots of smite evil and turn undead, and look, evil undead

[drebb]

In 3.5 a vampire bite causes constitution drain. They don't have potions for that.

Seriously? Not even on Scoundrél's top shelf?

[Doug Lampert]

V's final line is priceless. Blackwing STILL gets no love. ;)

I was thinking it prior to reading V saying it. To obvious a low hanging fruit to miss. :)


Wow, that's a long apology/forgiving

Even I don't apologize for that long

V is a firm believer in never using a one syllable word when a polysyllabic construction is applicable and never using a short description when a long one is available.

It saves slots you might otherwise waste on a sleep spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html).

[Anansiil]

Gotta love a logical character lol :P

There's a small typo in panel 5, the word Are isn't needed, or could be 'all' instead.

That was a touching moment lol :)


With a little more emotional growth, V might add "and I might, perhaps, even miss a familiar more than an inanimate magical object. "
One step away from true concern, oh our V is growing ;'P

[Lord Torath]

Love the strip! Can't really say more than already's been said.

Does anyone know what Blackwing's, "I'm a wizard, Harry" is referencing?

[8BitNinja]

V is a firm believer in never using a one syllable word when a polysyllabic construction is applicable and never using a short description when a long one is available.

It saves slots you might otherwise waste on a sleep spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html).


If V gave a lecture, it would double as a sleep spell

[bengator]

Can someone post the last time V used Bugsby's Cat Retrieving Hand? I vaguely remember it, but figure someone has it ready to go. Thanks!

And ditto on loving this strip. Looking forward to V blasting away. I hope he saves Belkar if for no other reason than the comic gold of Belkar owing V one . . .

[Lord Torath]

Can someone post the last time V used Bugsby's Cat Retrieving Hand? I vaguely remember it, but figure someone has it ready to go. Thanks!

And ditto on loving this strip. Looking forward to V blasting away. I hope he saves Belkar if for no other reason than the comic gold of Belkar owing V one . . .It was in the arena (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html).

[8BitNinja]

It was in the arena (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html).

Two words

Chekov's gun

[Jasdoif]

Does anyone know what Blackwing's, "I'm a wizard, Harry" is referencing?Almost certainly a Harry Potter reference, especially after "Pottericus mimickus!" in the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1020.html).

[KorvinStarmast]

The return to humor, particularly in a closing frame, is appreciated.

Note: Mr Scruffy and Bloodfeast provide evidence that they have significant HP pools. They seem to have formed a bond, as between soldiers. Good news.

[King of Nowhere]

There's a typo in panel 5, a word "are" too much; others already mentioned it, but just to increase the chance the giant will notice it. Those look bad in a book.

I have to say, as a person who strongly believes in logic, I also would have said what V said. But still, the way I mean it does not diminish what stated earlier. I value a good friend and would help him even at the cost of many resources. i would do that even without taking into account that a good, loial friend will offer you the kind of lifelong support that is eventually worth much more than those resources. Hey, see what I mean?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Aww, I love seeing Blackwing and Vaarsuvius continue to bond. I also enjoy seeing Vaarsuvius' continued preparedness with that spell.

[Ruck]

Hi!

Couldn't help but point to V saying "... we both have flaws upon which we are must ..." instead of "... we both have flaws upon which we must ...",

Roger

Maybe that's just one of the flaws upon which V are must continue to improve.


I believe V's alignment is CN or TN. And we've already seen that vampire-Creed of Stone members are fair game. Therefore, any vampire at the gate who tries to deny V access is going to eat Evocations and die.

Perhaps, say, the one who looks like he's about to make life unpleasant for Belkar?


I'm fairly sure the Giant has declared V to be TN. I can't see any case where V acted in a way to see a clear difference between the two (not enough panels in cities, I guess). In threads asking how CN "should be played", I would strongly recommend playing like V (instead of Thog or Belkar, which is the "CN PC" stereotype).

Thog and Belkar are both CE, no?


V has regularly been flying since at least the last book, perhaps longer.

It's a particularly good way to get somewhere when you're on an airship and the alternative is a really long climb down a rope ladder.

I never get tired of "Bugsby's _____ Hand" jokes. Although now I find myself wishing in #934 that V had called it "Bugsby's Dictator-Shoving Hand" or some such.

[Doug Lampert]

Thog and Belkar are both CE, no?

If you pay any attention at all to their actions they are CE, but then the same is true of a great many PCs whose players claim they are CN. I assume that the comment about the CN character stereotype was precisely because this isn't actual CN play.

I've heard and read any number of people try to defend blatant murder by a PC as "neutral" because the character got something out of it rather than doing it being purely because the character was LoLEvil. This also applies to people like assassins who do it for the money.

[Gwynfrid]

Wow, look at V getting all high-level-wizardly. "Walking is for people who don't have magic." I don't think I remember hem using flying-as-a-normal-mode-of-transportation except when channeling the IFCC's souls.

Subtle, but the heroes are getting more powerful.

At V's level, Overland Flight isn't a really high-level spell anymore (it's level 5) and it lasts all day. It's a reasonable investment to cast it every morning: In the event of a fight, it saves a precious round. Xykon does the same thing, by the way, even if he's shown walking most of the time.

[EricS53]

Does anyone know what Blackwing's, "I'm a wizard, Harry" is referencing?
In the first Harry Potter book/movie a half giant named Hargrad breaks down a door walks in, goes to Harry and says "you're a wizard, Harry". (leaving things out, this is what matters)

[Ruck]

If you pay any attention at all to their actions they are CE, but then the same is true of a great many PCs whose players claim they are CN. I assume that the comment about the CN character stereotype was precisely because this isn't actual CN play.

I've heard and read any number of people try to defend blatant murder by a PC as "neutral" because the character got something out of it rather than doing it being purely because the character was LoLEvil. This also applies to people like assassins who do it for the money.

Oh, I see. My unfamiliarity with how people actually play D&D strikes again.

[Doug Lampert]

At V's level, Overland Flight isn't a really high-level spell anymore (it's level 5) and it lasts all day. It's a reasonable investment to cast it every morning: In the event of a fight, it saves a precious round. Xykon does the same thing, by the way, even if he's shown walking most of the time.

That sounded wrong to me, but then I did the math: V is presumably level 15 or 16 (class and level geekery says 16). The class and level geekery also has him with 24 Int (very low for a PC wizard of his level, 18 start +4 levels, +6 headband is 28, four points higher).

24 Int, level 16, specialist wizard gets 6 level 5 spells, 5 level 6 spells, 5 level 7 spells, and 3 level 8 spells.

Even if he's only level 15 he just loses 2 of those spells. Thus V's last level 5 spell is presumably his 17th or 19th best spell (not counting spells from items). He's on an airship. Overland flight would be prepared twice (or extended) if I were him.

[Jay R]

This is only the second appearance of Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0781.html), right?

I've actually copied one of Vaarsuvius's Bugsby spells. In a D&D game, the DM allowed me to have Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) as a cantrip.


Does anyone know what Blackwing's, "I'm a wizard, Harry" is referencing?

I assume it's a reference to Hagrid's iconic line in the first movie, "You're a wizard, Harry."

[StLordeth]

Once again proof V strips are still the best.

Good dialogue in this.

[ti'esar]

Yeah, this was fun. While I liked V and Blackwing's interaction a lot, the moment that really went over best with me was Bloodfeast and Mr. Scruffy congratulating each other.

[Emperordaniel]

No, Vel & Whiskers were invented by a reader, and included as a kickstarter bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html#6eam4vhlOtdyflgooaB).

Those cameo characters have been in the comic for nearly a full year by this point - plenty of time for the Giant to have planned this little joke for a while now.

[pendell]

Cool update, but TOO MANY WORDS.

*Shrugs* Then again, it IS Vaarsuvius.

ETA: TYPO ALERT: Second to last panel; "appreciate" has an extra "t" that it doesn't need, spelling "apprectiate".


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shining Wrath]

Cool update, but TOO MANY WORDS.

*Shrugs* Then again, it IS Vaarsuvius.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Talky (wo)man should shut up? Have you become Thog while I wasn't keeping an eye on you?

[PallentisLunam]

The hand jokes are always the best. :smallbiggrin:

[Murk]

Can someone tell me what the small red specks on the floor (around the desk) in the first panel are? Bits of the scroll? Left-over pieces of the chair?

From my small laptop screen it almost looks like tiny, bloody rat feet, which would be... fairly gruesome.

[Keltest]

Can someone tell me what the small red specks on the floor (around the desk) in the first panel are? Bits of the scroll? Left-over pieces of the chair?

From my small laptop screen it almost looks like tiny, bloody rat feet, which would be... fairly gruesome.

They appear to be rat giblets. Gruesome indeed.

[Killer Angel]

Blackwing is priceless. :smallbiggrin:

[IDrankWHAT]

The hand jokes are always the best. :smallbiggrin:


Mine is probably from Strip #624 Bigby's Expressive Single Digit. I laughed WAY too hard when I read that one! :smalltongue:

[Narshe]

Bugsby's cat-retrieving hand, gets me every single time. I recommend that say it out loud in a professional setting, crack up, and then embarrassedly try to explain.

[dps]

Yeah, this was fun. While I liked V and Blackwing's interaction a lot, the moment that really went over best with me was Bloodfeast and Mr. Scruffy congratulating each other.

They weren't congratulating each other; Mr. Scruffy was checking to see if Bloodfeast was OK, and Bloodfeast was assuring him that he is.

[goodpeople25]

They weren't congratulating each other; Mr. Scruffy was checking to see if Bloodfeast was OK, and Bloodfeast was assuring him that he is.
Really you speak fluent lizard and cat? :smallbiggrin:

I agree that's what it looks like to me but it's just my opinion.

[Keltest]

Blackwing is priceless. :smallbiggrin:

Pretty sure he costs 100 Gp and 200 xp per level V has. :smalltongue:

[PallentisLunam]

I do wish we had seen more bloodfeast battle rage...

[Doug Lampert]

Pretty sure he costs 100 Gp and 200 xp per level V has. :smalltongue:

Only if V misses a DC 15 fortitude save. He gets +5 just from levels and may well have items or other abilities to boost this save (a con item for example wouldn't be unlikely).

If he makes the save it's 100 GP and 100 XP/level.

[DaggerPen]

Character development!

I love these two so much. And laughed a lot at the reuse of Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand.

Looks like now we know where Roy's ride back to the Mechane is coming from, though.


One "out of left field" question - is it possible that the vampire's attack upon Whiskers could somehow count as an attack against Veldrina, and therefore have an impact upon the Godsmoot?

Even if it did, the attacker was not-Gontor, who was explicitly not ordered to do so (and finding a loophole in contradictory orders to do so), who is no longer in the room. He's no longer there for justice to be meted out and should the rules require pursuit of him to do so, it would likely require the Godsmoot to finish up the current business first.



I've actually copied one of Vaarsuvius's Bugsby spells. In a D&D game, the DM allowed me to have Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) as a cantrip.

That's amazing.

[ArcadiaGM]

Wonderful comic. Great to see V's development and I LOLed at the last panel -- V's assessment and Blackwing's response were both priceless. Thanks Giant!

[Bulldog Psion]

Those do appear to be rat chunks.

And the Scruffy/Bloodfeast exchange is probably my favorite part of this one. :smallbiggrin:

Though I do have to wonder if one or both will die alongside Belkar someday. :smalleek:

[Peelee]

Really you speak fluent lizard and cat? :smallbiggrin:

I agree that's what it looks like to me but it's just my opinion.

Not lizard, but i did take cat in high school for my language requirement.

[Wildroses]

Now that V and Blackwing are heading to the moot maybe they will spot Belkar and Goliath.

I imagine V is planning to ask the ushers if they can let them in or bring Veldrina out for a medical emergency but now that all the ushers have died, teleported out or become High Priests I don't think anything is going to stop them walking right in.

And more love for the panel of Mr Scruffy and Bloodfeast here.

[Jasdoif]

Not lizard, but i did take cat in high school for my language requirement.I have an honorary degree in meowology, myself.

Mr. Scruffy is asking about Bloodfeast's status. Note the question mark in the transcription, denoting a query; the additional "w", meaning Mr. Scruffy is clear on what he wants to ask about (a "what's going on here" type of question, or a "you're supposed to figure out what I want" statement, would be longer at the "m" instead of the "w"); and reaching out to Bloodfeast with a paw, signifying that the question is both physical in nature and that Bloodfeast is the subject of inquiry.

[Cynric]

I'm both excited and terrified to see Vaarsuvius swing into action. I know the IFCC are waiting for the most opportune moments to use their debts, but who can ever say when that'll be? It's torture!

[Renegade Paladin]

Vaarsuvius wasn't briefed on the rules of the Godsmoot. Dollars to doughnuts the new High Priest of Hel eats a disintegrate or three and all hell breaks loose.

[ishnar]

Ok, this one was extra funny. I laughed pretty hard. Twice!

[Darth Paul]

LOVE it whenever V uses an "obscure call-back reference" spell. This was the one he used to retrieve Mr. Scruffy from Tarquin's arena, was it not?

-- signed, "He Who Is Too Lazy To Check The Archives Tonight"

EDIT-- Thanks to Lord Torath on the previous page, who I see was NOT too lazy, and indeed provided a link for lazy people like me. Much obliged!

[RabanoDOOM]

I love how we've gotten to the point with V that they can just decide to fly at any point in the story and everybody's fine with it. Hidden somewhere under that tiny cape lies a tiny jetpack.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If V gave a lecture, it would double as a sleep spell

Actually, I think it's a coma spell.

[PallentisLunam]

Actually, I think it's a coma spell.

No, definitely sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Joke went over your head, didn't it?

[The_Weirdo]

So, do we have any official word on what level is Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand? My group has a lion and I play a Wizard.

[Aegis J Hyena]

It's obviously patterned after the Bigby's spells, and I -think- the lowest level of those is 5, but it's been too-long-to-count since I've actually -played-, so don't take my word for it.

[Lombard]

Hmm, how to un-call PETA on a comic artist

[ben-zayb]

And are Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast bonding over this carnage? That is really cute.I mean, you are talking about two natural predators. What better way to bond than over the carnage left after a fierce fight?

[ti'esar]

Hmm, how to un-call PETA on a comic artist

What about all the dead rats? Don't they count??

:smalltongue:

[Ksstaritixtl]

Seems V finally got tiger. :smallcool:

[Dracon1us]

oh my

V. And Blackwing are the best characters

thank you so much Giant!

[HandofShadows]

Excellent page! Humor and character growth and so many levels. :smallcool:

[Kareasint]

Really good character development here. I particularly enjoyed the zing in the last panel.

Looks like everyone but the rats survived.

[Gwynfrid]

So, do we have any official word on what level is Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand? My group has a lion and I play a Wizard.

V's Bugsby's Hand spells are parody. In the actual game, there isn't one that's meant to help with carrying things. In your game, feel free to just recreate them at whatever level you think makes sense. If it's just to pick up and transport stuff then it's a bit better than Tenser's Floating Disc (which carries things but doesn't pick them up), so I'd say, level 2.

[Killer Angel]

Looks like everyone but the rats survived.

That's another case of quality > quantity :smalltongue:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[zimmerwald1915]

V's Bugsby's Hand spells are parody. In the actual game, there isn't one that's meant to help with carrying things.
Grasping hand is really meant to grapple, but under a generous GM it could probably be used to carry too.

[Bulldog Psion]

V's Bugsby's Hand spells are parody. In the actual game, there isn't one that's meant to help with carrying things. In your game, feel free to just recreate them at whatever level you think makes sense. If it's just to pick up and transport stuff then it's a bit better than Tenser's Floating Disc (which carries things but doesn't pick them up), so I'd say, level 2.

Agreed, level 2 sounds about right. After all, attack spells tend to be clustered in odd-numbered levels, and utility spells in even-numbered levels. And level 4 would be too high for the Cat-Retrieving Hand. :smallcool:

[TheYell]

Its not a typo. V has been talking to Air Pirates too long. Arrr.

[Pyrous]

Its not a typo. V has been talking to Air Pirates too long. Arrr.

Still a typo.

[omnitricks]

Weaponizing UMD? Gonna have to try that some day. Where are teh exact rules?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Hmm, how to un-call PETA on a comic artist

You can't unsummon PETA. You just distract them with something else. Like Bun-Bun from Sluggy Freelance. He'll make them forget all about the Giant.

[Quild]

Those cameo characters have been in the comic for nearly a full year by this point - plenty of time for the Giant to have planned this little joke for a while now.

Ron Miel was answering to someone who was guessing that Little Whiskers was introduced specifically in order to make that joke.

I find it better to believe that Giant used the presence of Little Whiskers to use the spell again, than to believe he added this animal companion to the KS character so he could throw the joke.

[The_Weirdo]

V's Bugsby's Hand spells are parody. In the actual game, there isn't one that's meant to help with carrying things. In your game, feel free to just recreate them at whatever level you think makes sense. If it's just to pick up and transport stuff then it's a bit better than Tenser's Floating Disc (which carries things but doesn't pick them up), so I'd say, level 2.

I know and I was mostly joking. ;)

[Bluepaw]

Though I do have to wonder if one or both will die alongside Belkar someday. :smalleek:

Oh that would be *most* sad, though hard to know whether it would be sadder to see Scruffy pawing at Belkar's body.

As for Bloodfeast, I fully expect to see him polymorphed back to normal in a crucial moment before this thing's done...

[littlebum2002]

"I don't know what's weirder - that [V] keeps preparing that spell, or that [V] keeps needing it"

That was literally my exact thought when reading that comic.

[Jasdoif]

"I don't know what's weirder - that [V] keeps preparing that spell, or that [V] keeps needing it"

That was literally my exact thought when reading that comic.My thought was that obviously it's weirder that Vaarsuvius keeps needing it. Preparing a spell there's a need for isn't that weird.

[Jay R]

Weaponizing UMD? Gonna have to try that some day. Where are teh exact rules?

This is not a D&D rule. If you decode the cryptogram on the scroll, you will see that the exact rules are shown on strip 970, panel 5. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html)

Strip #970 p5 establishes that magic items explode when activated improperly.


"I don't know what's weirder - that [V] keeps preparing that spell, or that [V] keeps needing it"

That was literally my exact thought when reading that comic.

Only one of them could be weird.

If the spell served no purpose, then preparing it would be weird. In this hypothetical case, the fact that Vaarsuvius keeps needing it would not be weird; it would just be false.

But since Vaarsuvius is shown to need it (which is weird), then continuing to prepare it is not.

Similarly, analyzing a punchline logically serves no purpose. Therefore continuing to do so would be weird.

[8BitNinja]

A dead rat swarm, the middle ages, and fleas

all a perfect recipe for bubonic plague

[Keltest]

A dead rat swarm, the middle ages, and fleas

all a perfect recipe for bubonic plague

*cough cure disease cough*

Like, its a plot point that it wont get off the ground.

[Roderick_BR]

Well, I lol'd at the "off-brand".

[8BitNinja]

*cough cure disease cough*

Like, its a plot point that it wont get off the ground.

Oh yeah, everyone uses magic

that's a thing

[Quibblicious]

Not lizard, but i did take cat in high school for my language requirement.

African or European?

[Shining Wrath]

Weaponizing UMD? Gonna have to try that some day. Where are teh exact rules?

Rule #1: Your DM must be named Rich Burlew.


Oh yeah, everyone uses magic

that's a thing

I do not believe bubonic plague is in the list of diseases in the 3.5 DMG; therefore, it does not exist. And we do not know from whence Vamptor summoned the swarms; they may have been pulled from a flea-free world.

Therefore, neither plague nor fleas are a given. However, if necessary, the Mechane is fast enough that it can flee plague.

[dancrilis]

A dead rat swarm, the middle ages, and fleas

all a perfect recipe for bubonic plague

I believe you might be thinking of Rhombomys opimus (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1621/1963.short) (possible known in some circles as the Dire Gerbil) - so rats would likely not suffice (they merely had the blame for a while).

[hagnat]

loved Mr Scruffy looking for Bloodfeast

wish V could polymorph Bloodfeast on something more lizard-useful, like a Raptor

[Jay R]

*cough cure disease cough*

Like, its a plot point that it wont get off the ground.

A less-than-perfect metaphor. This happened on the Mechane - it's already off the ground.

[Doug Lampert]

This is not a D&D rule. If you decode the cryptogram on the scroll, you will see that the exact rules are shown on strip 970, panel 5. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html)

Scrolls can misfire in a variety of ways if you fail the caster level check to use them. (DM option as to what happens, but "explodes and damages other people when the original spell isn't an attack spell" isn't on the list of suggestions.)

Of course Blackwing lacks a caster level (as far as we know), and hence can't make a caster level check.

V presumably has use magic device, which means Blackwing has use magic device. Use magic device has:
"If you fail by 10 or more, you suffer a mishap. A mishap means that magical energy gets released but it doesn’t do what you wanted it to do. The default mishaps are that the item affects the wrong target or that uncontrolled magical energy is released, dealing 2d6 points of damage to you. This mishap is in addition to the chance for a mishap that you normally run when you cast a spell from a scroll that you could not otherwise cast yourself."

The mishap being targeted on the user is specifically stated to be the default rather than universal, so again, GM judgment could allow something else (Rich appears to go with "explosion"). Similarly, the statement above is that this chance is in ADDITION to the normal mishap chance, there shouldn't be a mishap chance since there is no caster level check, but it would be reasonable to say that this statement means that failing UMD in this case ALSO counts as failing the caster level check, and that there is therefore a DC 5 wisdom check to avoid a mishap.

So, basically, assuming V has at least one rank in UMD, Blackwing can attempt to use the scroll, deliberately fail two checks, and generate a not-completely specified botch via either or both of two mechanisms. The GM can then decide what happens (explicitly his choice for the scroll mishap, implicitly for the UMD fail).

[Keltest]

V presumably has use magic device, which means Blackwing has use magic device.

Im curious as to what you think V would use that skill for. He is a wizard and therefore can already use a great variety of magic items. he also was quite dismissive of non-arcane magic (ie magic he could not use) until quite recently.

[dancrilis]

Im curious as to what you think V would use that skill for.

Possible for training purposes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html).

EDIT: Separately 'If you have 5 or more ranks in Use Magic Device, you get a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks made to decipher spells on scrolls'.

[Jasdoif]

Im curious as to what you think V would use that skill for. He is a wizard and therefore can already use a great variety of magic items. he also was quite dismissive of non-arcane magic (ie magic he could not use) until quite recently.Vaarsuvius is a specialist wizard, and can't use wizard spells from forbidden schools of magic; even from a scroll, wand or staff. A restriction UMD can overcome.

[Keltest]

Vaarsuvius is a specialist wizard, and can't use wizard spells from forbidden schools of magic; even from a scroll, wand or staff. A restriction UMD can overcome.

Ah, I did not know that.

[Porthos]

Vaarsuvius is a specialist wizard, and can't use wizard spells from forbidden schools of magic; even from a scroll, wand or staff. A restriction UMD can overcome.

Considering that Rich specifcally forebade schools from V so he couldn't use things like teleport (jokes after the fact, notwithstanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)), this sounds like an excellent reason for V to not have UMD. :smalltongue:

Plus the consideration that optimization and OotS rarely mix. :smallwink:

[Jasdoif]

Ah, I did not know that.It's kind of a sordid tale, stemming from how the core books didn't always use precise language, assumed single-class characters, and the d20 license (and by extension the SRD) forbidding describing how to apply experience to characters so how it all works with multiclass characters isn't particularly well covered....But basically, spells from prohibited schools don't appear on a specialist wizard's class spell list, since that's the only requirement for using a wand and specialist wizards can't use such wands.

Succeeding at the UMD check for using a scroll or wand allows you to activate it as though it was on your class spell list...at which point it would be no different than a generalist wizard using the same item. The wand application works for all spell trigger items, including staffs; so you'd even get the normal benefit of using your own caster level if it's higher than the staff's.


Personally I wouldn't say it justifies throwing cross-class skill point ranks into UMD for a single-class wizard, the DCs are high enough that you'd have to do a lot of stretching to approach reliability this way...but I haven't been frustrated by the universe transmogrifying my spells' schools (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html), and a wizard's going to have a high Intelligence for their spellcasting, and the accompanying skill points may inspire one to throw extra ranks just for the chance to spite the universe.


Considering that Rich specifcally forebade schools from V so he couldn't use things like teleport (jokes after the fact, notwithstanding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)), this sounds like an excellent reason for V to not have UMD. :smalltongue:Somehow, I expected more from you than "any reason for Vaarsuvius to have UMD constitutes a reason for Vaarsuvius not to have UMD" :smalltongue:!!!


Plus the consideration that optimization and OotS rarely mix. :smallwink:I wouldn't calling relying on cross-class ranks "optimized" for DCs that start at 20 :smalltongue:

[8BitNinja]

African or European?

I don't know that

[NihhusHuotAliro]

See, this is why the OOTs should have bought two teleport orbs, and only told Durkula about one of them. In fact, they should have bought the second one off-panel so that the readers wouldn't know, because, as Tarquin Explained, if the audience doesn't know about it, then the characters are less likely to find out.

[Ruck]

See, this is why the OOTs should have bought two teleport orbs, and only told Durkula about one of them. In fact, they should have bought the second one off-panel so that the readers wouldn't know, because, as Tarquin Explained, if the audience doesn't know about it, then the characters are less likely to find out.
There weren't two orbs to buy, which is why Wrecan and Veldrina couldn't get one.

[Gift Jeraff]

So now Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel and we can go back to the real plot (the one I like).

[zimmerwald1915]

So now Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel and we can go back to the real plot (the one I like).
Oh, you mean the one around Durkon?

[factotum]

So now Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel and we can go back to the real plot (the one I like).

Except Roy is presumably no longer a bodyguard and thus doesn't have the loophole of being protected by the meeting's rules--if he makes a move against her he's going to have a lot of high-level clerics on his case. Oh, and thanks for clarifying that "real plot" means "the plot I, personally, like, and anyone who disagrees can go hang", it makes things a lot easier. :smallwink:

[Bobblit]

Oooh, the maturity! I really like how V's and Blackwing's relationship has improved. Looking at how they started, I wouldn't have believed it possible :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

Upon reflection, preparing Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand seems less weird when you remember that Vaarsuvius travels with a cat. And we never saw that spell at all until Vaarsuvius was taking care of Mr. Scruffy.

[littlebum2002]

So now Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel and we can go back to the real plot (the one I like).

I'm not sure this would accomplish anything. I don't think that not having a HPoH in the moot will negate their vote until the voting resumes. In other words, if Roy kills the new HPoH, it doesn't really matter as long as some other Priest of Hel shows up before the last vote is counted and takes their place.


Except Roy is presumably no longer a bodyguard

What makes you think Roy is no longer a bodyguard? I mean, if it were that easy to dismiss a bodyguard you would think Durkula would have done that earlier, when Roy was threatening to kill him. Especially because that would mean that Roy would have been an interloper and subject to be put to death by ALL the priests at the moot, not just Durkula.

[Deliverance]

What makes you think Roy is no longer a bodyguard? I mean, if it were that easy to dismiss a bodyguard you would think Durkula would have done that earlier, when Roy was threatening to kill him. Especially because that would mean that Roy would have been an interloper and subject to be put to death by ALL the priests at the moot, not just Durkula.
Possibly he meant that Roy is no longer a bodyguard in the sense that allowed the previous sequence of events, i.e. a bodyguard attacking his own priest. Unless there is some rule that transfers bodyguardship when a high priest relinquishes his position, there's no reason that Roy's status as bodyguard to Durkon should have changed.

[Mad Humanist]

Possibly he meant that Roy is no longer a bodyguard in the sense that allowed the previous sequence of events, i.e. a bodyguard attacking his own priest. Unless there is some rule that transfers bodyguardship when a high priest relinquishes his position, there's no reason that Roy's status as bodyguard to Durkon should have changed.

I suspect that quite a lot of the things that the High Priest of Hel did were not covered by the rules. Presumably the mechanics of the proxy spell are hard and fast, but anything that is not specified by Godsmoot rules and that spell, are being set by "on-the-fly precedent" aka "making it up as you go along". So Roy can claim that he has been in post longer than the current High Priestess of Hel and so has priority. It is probably a terrible argument but it may come down to his word against hers. So if they disagree, he has grounds to fight her over that.

[littlebum2002]

Possibly he meant that Roy is no longer a bodyguard in the sense that allowed the previous sequence of events, i.e. a bodyguard attacking his own priest. Unless there is some rule that transfers bodyguardship when a high priest relinquishes his position, there's no reason that Roy's status as bodyguard to Durkon should have changed.

In that case, since Roy is not the bodyguard of any High priest in the moot, he is trespassing and should be killed immediately for violating moot rules.

[jere7my]

In that case, since Roy is not the bodyguard of any High priest in the moot, he is trespassing and should be killed immediately for violating moot rules.

So if a priest has a heart attack at the moot, you think the other priests would immediately kill their bodyguards? That seems an unlikely rule.

[Doug Lampert]

I suspect that quite a lot of the things that the High Priest of Hel did were not covered by the rules. Presumably the mechanics of the proxy spell are hard and fast, but anything that is not specified by Godsmoot rules and that spell, are being set by "on-the-fly precedent" aka "making it up as you go along". So Roy can claim that he has been in post longer than the current High Priestess of Hel and so has priority. It is probably a terrible argument but it may come down to his word against hers. So if they disagree, he has grounds to fight her over that.

As I've pointed out in the past, there is fairly solid evidence that "bodyguard" goes with a person being guarded, NOT the office of high priest.

Wreccan, our source for the rules on bodyguards thought Durkon could have two without being a high priest when he thought Durkon could get in as an observer, nor was he surprised that Durkula was allowed one when he'd been told Durkula couldn't be the High Priest of Thor and Durkula hadn't yet claimed to worship anyone else.

Also: Veldrina has one, despite not being a high priest at any time.

Ergo: We absolutely know that non-high priests can have bodyguards, thus even as a non-high priest it's perfectly reasonable that Durkula can have bodyguards (just as Wreccan thought was the case PRIOR to Durkula revealing that he's a high priest), and Roy came in as Durkula's bodyguard.

Why would he now be someone else's bodyguard.

In the real world things like secret service protective details (assigned due to someone holding an office) are quite clearly assigned to the person and remain on duty with that person even in the event of sudden changes in office.

Sorry, the claim that he's the new nHPoH's bodyguard appears to be blind wishful thinking with no backing from how bodyguards appear to work in the comic, or from how they work in the real world, or from how they need to work for the story Rich is telling us, or from anything else that I've seen. In fact you have to completely IGNORE everything we know about bodyguards both in and out of comic to think he's now the nHPoH's bodyguard.

[Doug Lampert]

In that case, since Roy is not the bodyguard of any High priest in the moot, he is trespassing and should be killed immediately for violating moot rules.

Have we have not heard any mention whatsoever that the penalty for trespass at the moot is death? People keep on making up nonsense "rules" and then complaining when Rich doesn't follow their delusions so I'd like to know if this is such a case or if there's some actual evidence that no one but ushers, guards, observers, high priests, and who knows what else is admitted and that anyone else MUST be killed on sight.

[DaggerPen]

Have we have not heard any mention whatsoever that the penalty for trespass at the moot is death? People keep on making up nonsense "rules" and then complaining when Rich doesn't follow their delusions so I'd like to know if this is such a case or if there's some actual evidence that no one but ushers, guards, observers, high priests, and who knows what else is admitted and that anyone else MUST be killed on sight.

I'd like to further point out that when the fHPOH claimed to be Hel's High Priest, the High Priest of Odin said "prove it - or leave these halls", not "prove it - or die." http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html

Now, it's entirely feasible that Roy is vulnerable to the same "No official protection" issue and may have to hastily exit to some "yes" priests attacking him while "no" priests buff and try to shield him, but I'm pretty sure that even if the rules allow priests to smite him now, they do not require it.

[littlebum2002]

It was the "a bodyguard who raises arms against another bodyguard" rule that I was thinking of, not the trespassing rule, apparently. I thought I remembered reading that all laws at the godsmoot were enforced with the death penalty but I was clearly mistaken :smallredface:

[Jasdoif]

Have we have not heard any mention whatsoever that the penalty for trespass at the moot is death? People keep on making up nonsense "rules" and then complaining when Rich doesn't follow their delusions so I'd like to know if this is such a case or if there's some actual evidence that no one but ushers, guards, observers, high priests, and who knows what else is admitted and that anyone else MUST be killed on sight.Well, I can see where confusion could come from. The specific wording Wrecan used in 994 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), "...he'll be violating the terms of the Godsmoot and they'll dust him on the spot", could be seen as a direct "violating the terms of the Godsmoot means death", and it's not much of a stretch for trespassing to be a violation of terms.

That said, Wrecan didn't dispute Roy's "Belkar got kicked out for snooping around" theory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0997.html), so it's unlikely death is mandatory for trespassing.

[Jay R]

There is nothing to be gained by arguing over rules we haven't read. We don't know the details of the rules, but we can be pretty sure that they will not prevent Rich's plot from developing.

[8BitNinja]

Why would a vampire need a teleport orb? He could just go bite a wizard and then make the wizard cast teleport

[Jasdoif]

Why would a vampire need a teleport orb? He could just go bite a wizard and then make the wizard cast teleportBoards Orbs don't hit back.

[8BitNinja]

Boards Orbs don't hit back.

This is true

(In the TF2 Heavy's voice) but I am yet to see a man who can outsmart an attack of oppurtunity

[Jay R]

Why would a vampire need a teleport orb? He could just go bite a wizard and then make the wizard cast teleport

In this case, it's because the wizard he knows can't cast teleport.

[8BitNinja]

Is there a divine version of teleport? I know that there is planar shift but that is going to another plane

[Keltest]

Is there a divine version of teleport? I know that there is planar shift but that is going to another plane

There are certainly travel spells, but I don't believe there is a direct counterpart on the standard list. Clerics with the Travel Domain can cast teleport as a domain spell.

[Jasdoif]

Is there a divine version of teleport? I know that there is planar shift but that is going to another planeDepending on the exact scenario you could use plane shift, since you can cast it twice (once to get to another plane, once to get back), but it leaves you 5-500 miles away from your intended destination; you'd need some way to cover that distance. Wind walk works (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), though it could take several hours of travel time.

[Doug Lampert]

It was the "a bodyguard who raises arms against another bodyguard" rule that I was thinking of, not the trespassing rule, apparently. I thought I remembered reading that all laws at the godsmoot were enforced with the death penalty but I was clearly mistaken :smallredface:

No problem, there have certainly been plenty of people talking as if "all violations carry the death penalty", and that's the only penalty I think we've heard of.

I was probably excessively snarky. Sorry about that. But it does seem to me that we've had an altogether excessive number of people insisting that the rules do or should say things that strike me as both unsupported and unlikely.

[AutomatedTeller]

Is it weird that Blackwing is fast becoming my favorite character?

[Ruck]

No problem, there have certainly been plenty of people talking as if "all violations carry the death penalty", and that's the only penalty I think we've heard of.

I was probably excessively snarky. Sorry about that. But it does seem to me that we've had an altogether excessive number of people insisting that the rules do or should say things that strike me as both unsupported and unlikely.

I understand your frustration-- it's really not that hard to go check a previous comic to see its content actually matches the idea you* have in your* head of what it says.

(* - the royal "you", in this case)

[Mad Humanist]

Is it weird that Blackwing is fast becoming my favorite character?

No, but the list of my favourite characters looks a bit like those Good/Evil sides posters the Giant produced a while back.

[ChillerInstinct]

Why would a vampire need a teleport orb? He could just go bite a wizard and then make the wizard cast teleport

I think it's less about the HPoH (and posse) being able to teleport... and more about making sure the Order CAN'T.

Whether it's making sure that they can't interfere with their plan to dominate the Dwarven Elders, or, if that plan fails, preventing them from securing the gate so they can't blow it up and force the other gods' hands into letting Hel have her way, Hel's forces benefit greatly from the Order not being able to teleport at whim. Reading Durkon's memories (let alone being there when the plan to obtain some way to teleport was plotted out) means that the HPoH knows that the Order has no form of transportation faster than the Mechane. Which, hilariously, will probably still be fast enough considering its penchant for arriving at the nick of time, but short of dominating everyone on the ship and having it smash into a mountain (which probably wouldn't have worked anyway) there really wasn't much Hel could do about that.

Being able to teleport to one of the elders directly, well, that's just a bonus. :P

[littlebum2002]

Why would a vampire need a teleport orb? He could just go bite a wizard and then make the wizard cast teleport

The same reasoning could be used for V. V could Dominate another wizard and make them teleport the group.

[F.Harr]

So very many flaws, as we all have.

Whiskers will have fun when he's revived. And hating vampires.

And then Belkar.

I think we're getting ready for some winning and then dealing with what Durkula is doing.

[Kami2awa]

The same reasoning could be used for V. V could Dominate another wizard and make them teleport the group.

Or, you know, ask that wizard nicely.

[dtilque]

So now Roy can kill the new High Priestess of Hel and we can go back to the real plot (the one I like).

You are Evil. Has anyone told you that lately?

[littlebum2002]

Well, I can see where confusion could come from. The specific wording Wrecan used in 994 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html), "...he'll be violating the terms of the Godsmoot and they'll dust him on the spot", could be seen as a direct "violating the terms of the Godsmoot means death", and it's not much of a stretch for trespassing to be a violation of terms.

That said, Wrecan didn't dispute Roy's "Belkar got kicked out for snooping around" theory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0997.html), so it's unlikely death is mandatory for trespassing.

Thanks! I KNEW I got that from somewhere!

[Pyrous]

Is there a divine version of teleport? I know that there is planar shift but that is going to another plane

Word of Recall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm), but you must designate the destination (sanctuary) when you prepare it. The destination (sanctuary) must be very familiar to you; in Durkula's case, any place very familiar to Durkon could arguably qualify. Durkula could use it to go to dwarven lands.

This may shed light on why the HPs of yes-gods who want to change the vote don't use Word of Recall. Maybe it is blocked by the barrier (possibly along with all divine teleportation spells), but arcane teleportation is not. Or maybe, as ChillerInstinct said, he wanted to make sure that the Order could not quickly follow. Maybe both...

[Manty5]

In honor of the upcoming Super Bowl and the main conflict being moved to dwarven lands, the next strip's title will be:

"10,000,000 yard penalty, repeat final down."

[Dr.Zero]

Word of Recall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm), but you must designate the destination (sanctuary) when you prepare it. The destination (sanctuary) must be very familiar to you; in Durkula's case, any place very familiar to Durkon could arguably qualify. Durkula could use it to go to dwarven lands.

This may shed light on why the HPs of yes-gods who want to change the vote don't use Word of Recall. Maybe it is blocked by the barrier (possibly along with all divine teleportation spells), but arcane teleportation is not. Or maybe, as ChillerInstinct said, he wanted to make sure that the Order could not quickly follow. Maybe both...


It seems more reasonable to think they didn't shield from any teleport at all (at least from inside to outside) on the assumption that there was no reason to teleport away in the middle of a vote (usually it would mean simply to lose your vote; I mean, if they, you know, thought to enforce for good the "only 1 HP and 2 BGs" rule :smallbiggrin:)

Shielding only word of recall, because it is a teleport spell, means that they forgot about the 2BGs for every HP (who can be wizards, sorcerers or psionics), that they forgot about scrolls, etcetera. Well, from what we have seen it is totally plausible that they forgot about all of this. :smallbiggrin:

Thus: it is more reasonable if the gods didn't shield from any teleport (from inside to outside), but it is perfectly plausible they did it the wrong way (again) shielding only the word or recall. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

The same reasoning could be used for V. V could Dominate another wizard and make them teleport the group.

Problem is, he'd need to find one with Greater Teleport--standard teleport has a distance limit and a distinct chance of landing off target if the person teleporting has never been there before. That means a 13th level wizard or higher, which is sufficiently close to V's own level that Dominating them would not be a trivial or easy task. Plus there's the problem of actually finding a wizard of such a high level--13th level anything is pretty rare in the Stickverse.

[8BitNinja]

Problem is, he'd need to find one with Greater Teleport--standard teleport has a distance limit and a distinct chance of landing off target if the person teleporting has never been there before. That means a 13th level wizard or higher, which is sufficiently close to V's own level that Dominating them would not be a trivial or easy task. Plus there's the problem of actually finding a wizard of such a high level--13th level anything is pretty rare in the Stickverse.

There are many flaws in my plan

I'm not that good with the whole armageddon thing

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why would you Dominate the wizard when you can just cast Summon REALLY Big Bag of Money?

[8BitNinja]

Why would you Dominate the wizard when you can just cast Summon REALLY Big Bag of Money?

Because money can be denied

If an undead hell spawn asked me to do something and offered me money, I would still deny them

[dancrilis]

Because money can be denied

If an undead hell spawn asked me to do something and offered me money, I would still deny them

Hmm ... so denial of service solely on the grounds of what is effectively ethnicity.

[8BitNinja]

Hmm ... so denial of service solely on the grounds of what is effectively ethnicity.

more like denial based on alignment

[Keltest]

Hmm ... so denial of service solely on the grounds of what is effectively ethnicity.

Ethically. ethnicity is something different.

[dancrilis]

more like denial based on alignment

There is no guarantee that every 'undead hell spawn' has the same alignment - so you would be denying them because you don't like people who 'look like them'.

Secondly no alignment is inherently better than another and many people within an alignment will be vastly different as individuals - so this is just a completely arbitrary reason to deny service (i.e you just don't like 'those people').


Ethically. ethnicity is something different.
To Quote Wiki:

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a category of people who identify with each other based on common ancestral, social, cultural or national experience. Unlike most other social groups, ethnicity is primarily an inherited status. Membership of an ethnic group tends to be defined by a shared cultural heritage, ancestry, origin myth, history, homeland, language and/or dialect, symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, art, and physical appearance.

I think Undead Hell Spawn would count as an ethnicity based on this.

[littlebum2002]

There is no guarantee that every 'undead hell spawn' has the same alignment - so you would be denying them because you don't like people who 'look like them'.

Secondly no alignment is inherently better than another and many people within an alignment will be vastly different as individuals - so this is just a completely arbitrary reason to deny service (i.e you just don't like 'those people').


To Quote Wiki:


I think Undead Hell Spawn would count as an ethnicity based on this.

This is certainly all true, that one alignment is just as acceptable as another, and as Rich is trying to portray in his comic, that judging someone solely because of their alignment isn't necessarily a good idea.

However, I believe the poster is speaking on the basis of a Paladin, in which case negotiating with any Evil character is a pretty good way to become a fighter without bonus feats.

[Jasdoif]

There is no guarantee that every 'undead hell spawn' has the same alignment - so you would be denying them because you don't like people who 'look like them'.

Secondly no alignment is inherently better than another and many people within an alignment will be vastly different as individuals - so this is just a completely arbitrary reason to deny service (i.e you just don't like 'those people').And even if their nature somehow was a basis (let's suppose they have...a Puppy-Kicker subtype)....Couldn't you find better uses for the money they're offering, than whatever nefarious purposes we're assuming they could use it for themselves (kicking puppies)? Unless of course, the service itself is objectionable...In which case it's the service that's the problem, and the money and the identity of the offerer should have nothing to do with it.

[8BitNinja]

And even if their nature somehow was a basis (let's suppose they have...a Puppy-Kicker subtype)....Couldn't you find better uses for the money they're offering, than whatever nefarious purposes we're assuming they could use it for themselves (kicking puppies)? Unless of course, the service itself is objectionable...In which case it's the service that's the problem, and the money and the identity of the offerer should have nothing to do with it.

I am talking about the services required

two words, undead, and infernal

[Jasdoif]

I am talking about the services required

two words, undead, and infernalIf that's the case, you should probably describe the services instead of the offerer, as in...

"If someone asked me to do something undead and infernal and offered me money, I would still deny them."

...in which case I would still ask you what makes a service "undead", but we're be closer to the same page.

[8BitNinja]

If that's the case, you should probably describe the services instead of the offerer, as in...

"If someone asked me to do something undead and infernal and offered me money, I would still deny them."

...in which case I would still ask you what makes a service "undead", but we're be closer to the same page.

I worded that wrong, What I meant to say was, if an evil-aligned force offered me money (using an undead infernal as a hyperbole), no matter how large, I would not take it

I'd probably just smite the thing, not necessarily using a smite ability but the actual definition of smiting

[littlebum2002]

I worded that wrong, What I meant to say was, if an evil-aligned force offered me money (using an undead infernal as a hyperbole), no matter how large, I would not take it

I'd probably just smite the thing, not necessarily using a smite ability but the actual definition of smiting

And after you smite the creature you just take the money anyway, everyone is happy (except the demon of course)

[Kantaki]

I worded that wrong, What I meant to say was, if an evil-aligned force offered me money (using an undead infernal as a hyperbole), no matter how large, I would not take it

I'd probably just smite the thing, not necessarily using a smite ability but the actual definition of smiting

Even if they want to pay you to do something good? Like saving a innocent village from being wiped out by orcs/evil cultists/bunnies or preventing the rebirth of the god of evil?
Of course the details (most importantly where you have to go) stay a secret until you took the deal.:smalltongue:

[Rogar Demonblud]

You got to be careful around details. Often times they're devil-camouflage.

[Shining Wrath]

By definition, your alignment helps to describe your personality.
By definition, people whose personality is described as "evil" will never act for the greater good except by accident on their way to acting in their own benefit.


Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good-evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for people, or at least for them.

D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#goodVsEvil).

Those are the rules of the game. To the extent that OotSverse corresponds to the rules, evil creatures are simply not morally equal to good ones. Our protagonist is Lawful Good shading toward Neutral Good, not Lawful Evil, and that's intentional on the part of the author.

[Jasdoif]

By definition, people whose personality is described as "evil" will never act for the greater good except by accident on their way to acting in their own benefit.Overlooking your mistaken belief that an Evil person must be evil in all aspects at all times, an Evil person could certainly decide to promote the greater good in a way that also benefits themselves. Even Belkar knows that one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html).

[Shining Wrath]

Overlooking your mistaken belief that an Evil person must be evil in all aspects at all times, an Evil person could certainly decide to promote the greater good in a way that also benefits themselves. Even Belkar knows that one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html).

There are many different ways to do evil, and the block quote spells that out. And I never said that an evil person is always evil at all times; I acknowledged your point about the greater good because it also served them right there in the original post.

But go read that quote from the rules again. It really doesn't allow for the "I want to be evil aligned but most of the time be a nice guy" character. Early-strip Belkar is a pretty good CE; he is restrained by fear of consequences but kills and maims whenever he can.

[littlebum2002]

Right. What if the Demon wants you to eliminate a rival demon who just got summoned in the middle of the city and is in the process of wiping it out? And the demon is JUST about to give you their rival's name so you can have power over them when you SMITE EVIL him into next week.

[Jasdoif]

And I never said that an evil person is always evil at all times; I acknowledged your point about the greater good because it also served them right there in the original post.You said "never act for the greater good except by accident". Which would mean never willingly acting for the greater good.


But go read that quote from the rules again. It really doesn't allow for the "I want to be evil aligned but most of the time be a nice guy" character.Since a payment-for-a-service scenario is one time, not "most of the time", I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make here is.

[Shining Wrath]

You said "never act for the greater good except by accident". Which would mean never willingly acting for the greater good.

Since a payment-for-a-service scenario is one time, not "most of the time", I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make here is.

My point is that sometimes you don't have time to investigate all the facts. If you have to decide, the wise course is to use probability - and probably (very probably) an undead fiend does not have the greater good as a goal when it asks you to do something. There are exceptions, of course, and they make for great stories - but if you are wise you will ask for evidence that this is an exceptional case before agreeing.

As a lighter tone example, suppose you are a DM and one of your players is a bit of a munchkin. If they ask you if they can play a homebrew race, do you
1) Agree without seeing the description
2) Agree after you give it the same review you would for a different, non-munchkin player
3) Agree after you really look it over carefully

Depends on how you run things, of course, but I think for most DMs (3) is the right answer. If you know a person's inclination is to seek personal power at the expense of the rest of the table, you proceed with more caution.

[Jasdoif]

My point is that sometimes you don't have time to investigate all the facts. If you have to decide, the wise course is to use probability - and probably (very probably) an undead fiend does not have the greater good as a goal when it asks you to do something. There are exceptions, of course, and they make for great stories - but if you are wise you will ask for evidence that this is an exceptional case before agreeing.Ah, that explains it....I was refuting the idea that investigating the facts would be unnecessary (ie that an undead fiend trying to pay you do is something is sufficient grounds not to do it, regardless of anything else).

If you don't have the opportunity to get the facts, you would need to rely on what you do know and what you can statistically guess...although I'd think the nature of what you're being asked to do, and what you can accomplish with the offered payment, should be more important than the identity of an offerer you're not personally familiar with. You being the one to do it makes it a lot harder to falsify what you're being asked to do, if nothing else.

[Bulldog Psion]

*Wanders in after being away a couple days*

*Finds an alignment argument in full swing*

*Leaps back out of the thread with an alarmed yelp and goes to look for a bowl of psikibble to consume*

[Shining Wrath]

*Wanders in after being away a couple days*

*Finds an alignment argument in full swing*

*Leaps back out of the thread with an alarmed yelp and goes to look for a bowl of psikibble to consume*

Come back, I think the alignment wars are over.
At least until I can arrange for a proper Inquisition! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Jay R]

There's an awful lot of discussion here trying to deny the possibility that accepting an offer from an undead hell spawn defined as Evil might be bad.

[Jasdoif]

There's an awful lot of discussion here trying to deny the possibility that accepting an offer from an undead hell spawn defined as Evil might be bad.There's an awful lot of discussion here trying to deny the possibility that accepting an offer from an undead hell spawn defined as Evil might not be bad, too.

Actually I'm not sure anyone is really denying that it might be bad, though I could have missed a post....Lots of people arguing over whether it's always bad, though.

[Manty5]

Well, some people might well make hasty, rash assumptions that an infernal undead's plans might not involve using their transactions for starting a puppy rescue shelter.

Others might agonize at length about how oppressive it is to label good and evil even in a universe where such things have concrete definitions and angsting about how the real evil in the world is to make evidence-based assumptions.

But most people would observe that even if said infernal undead was a Thog-clone, he might well hack down a few earth fairies on his way to build the puppy shelter.

Not that I would deny an infernal undead's rights to slaughter earth fairies. That would be racist. She was probably asking to be hacked anyway, you know how those judgemental good-aligned people are.

[Quild]

You said "never act for the greater good except by accident". Which would mean never willingly acting for the greater good.
I'm not sure about this one. What about Redcloak?

He's clearly a character acting actively for a cause that he thinks righteous and stuff.
That's how he lives with some sacrifices, because "It'll all be worth it. You'll see.".

From his point of view, he does that for the greater good. For goblins race, sure, but it still might be a pareto improvement in the end.


It's quite easier to be the good guy when you're above the other one and benefits from the status quo.

[8BitNinja]

Come back, I think the alignment wars are over.
At least until I can arrange for a proper Inquisition! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The alignment wars are over?

MY TIME MACHINE WORKED!

[Shining Wrath]

The alignment wars are over?

MY TIME MACHINE WORKED!

I have a time machine that moves me into the future at 3600 seconds per hour. Since the arrow of time is still poorly understood by physicists, I defy anyone to prove that it's not my efforts alone that cause this effect :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

What about Redcloak? He's clearly a character acting actively for a cause that he thinks righteous and stuff.
That's how he lives with some sacrifices, because "It'll all be worth it. You'll see.".

From his point of view, he does that for the greater good. For goblins race, sure, ...
So did a rather famous European political leader in the 30's and 40's, and I really wish I hadn't done that as it is an obvious deity victory moment.

Returning our topic to the strip #1021 ... I am hoping for a scene change back to Belkar and that large creature with the large weapon at the entry to the cult of stone's temporary edifice.

I was trying to do a riff off or Leoumund's Tiny Hut for the great big honking temple thing, and couldn't arrive at one. It lets too many things in and out.

[8BitNinja]

So did a rather famous European political leader in the 30's and 40's, and I really wish I hadn't done that as it is an obvious deity victory moment.

He definitely is not Hitler, the afterlife for Goblins is obviously the Black Fleet from Star Trek, and no one really knows what religion Hitler belonged to, the Soviets had all the info on his life, so most of it is shrouded in mystery

[KorvinStarmast]

He definitely is not Hitler, the afterlife for Goblins is obviously the Black Fleet from Star Trek, and no one really knows what religion Hitler belonged to, the Soviets had all the info on his life, so most of it is shrouded in mystery Small digression into history: baptized Catholic, as was common in Austria at the time of birth, not sure what he actually believed/professed as an adult ... if anything. There are sufficient biographies of that person extant, and sufficient records of people who actually met that person recorded to render your comment about "mystery" total rubbish. Apologies to all for this digression, it was a crap joke, crap timing, and will not be repeated.

[Shining Wrath]

Small digression into history: baptized Catholic, as was common in Austria at the time of birth, not sure what he actually believed/professed as an adult ... if anything. There are sufficient biographies of that person extant, and sufficient records of people who actually met that person recorded to render your comment about "mystery" total rubbish. Apologies to all for this digression, it was a crap joke, crap timing, and will not be repeated.

No matter whether you are discussing real-world leaders or OotS-world leaders, the religion they profess might not be what they actually believe, e.g., Lord Shojo led his paladins to believe he was LG. Statements made for public consumption are not always accurate.

[8BitNinja]

Small digression into history: baptized Catholic, as was common in Austria at the time of birth, not sure what he actually believed/professed as an adult ... if anything. There are sufficient biographies of that person extant, and sufficient records of people who actually met that person recorded to render your comment about "mystery" total rubbish. Apologies to all for this digression, it was a crap joke, crap timing, and will not be repeated.

Alright, but you said that he never professed or showed piety as a Catholic, but Redcloak is a CLERIC, and he talks to his god directly.

Never mind about what I said about the whole "mystery" thing

[DaggerPen]

Secondly no alignment is inherently better than another and many people within an alignment will be vastly different as individuals - so this is just a completely arbitrary reason to deny service (i.e you just don't like 'those people').

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the comic takes rather a different stance -


I can't think of anything more boring than a character who always wins and never gets emotionally impacted by anything.

Also, undercutting that so-called "redefinition of evil" is sort of the point. Because it's bull****. It's not a real thing. You can't be a torturing, mass-murdering rapist and then go home and turn your Evil Switch to the "off" position to spend time with your kids. It doesn't work that way. If you are the sort of person that can commit the acts that Tarquin does daily, then that will find its way into every aspect of your existence. It's who you are. This idea that Tarquin was this perfectly rational actor despite being a complete monster at his Day Job is a pipe dream. Tarquin wants you (and Elan) to think that what he does is separate from who he is—that he's a fundamentally decent man who just so happens to murder a bunch of people here and there—because that's how he tricks you into slowly accepting his blatant Evil as a valid life choice that needs to be respected. Which it is not.

Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch.

I mean, yes, the comic has themes about not indiscriminately slaughtering Evil people - I am not the Giant but it seems fair to say that in general, the comic asserts that Evil people should be treated as people, and dealt with fairly in a manner befitting their crimes, rather than wantonly slaughtering anyone who pings "Evil" on the paladin-dar. But to say that "no alignment is inherently better than another"? No. Being Evil is inherently The Worst. That's why it's called Evil, with a capital E and everything. Don't be Evil.

Mind, that doesn't necessarily mean that our hypothetical wizard wouldn't be jumping to conclusions because of the vampires being vampires, assuming that the wizard doesn't know the nature of vampires in universe. But when a group of undead who reproduce by turning others made up entirely of turned dwarves show up asking for a teleport to the dwarven lands, it is perhaps best to roll a Sense Motive check.

[davidbofinger]

DaggerPen's quote from The Giant is interesting because a lot of it is counterintuitive. To the point I'd probably be calling it wrong if someone else had written it.


You can't be a torturing, mass-murdering rapist and then go home and turn your Evil Switch to the "off" position to spend time with your kids. It doesn't work that way.

I think a lot of German concentration camp guards probably went home to their kids and were normal fathers. Or torturers in Argentina, or Francoist Spain, or Mafia families, or whatever.

The paladins who wiped out Redcloak's tribe probably went home and behaved kindly to their families too.

This is, ironically, because these people are behaving according to a code that says you treat evil people differently, and they recognise their victims as evil and their children as not-evil. Focused special relationship ethics - "I'll die to save my children but the rest of you out the airlock" - is a really old way of thinking. It's the less xenophobic philosophies that are the recent arrivals.

I'm not sure what Rich was saying here. It's not immediately obvious from the thread which argument he's getting involved in.


I can't think of anything more boring than a character who always wins and never gets emotionally impacted by anything.

This is basically Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner, who I would agree are not great characters but are very popular so obviously many people disagree with us.

[Jasdoif]

I think a lot of German concentration camp guards probably went home to their kids and were normal fathers. Or torturers in Argentina, or Francoist Spain, or Mafia families, or whatever.

The paladins who wiped out Redcloak's tribe probably went home and behaved kindly to their families too.

This is, ironically, because these people are behaving according to a code that says you treat evil people differently, and they recognise their victims as evil and their children as not-evil. Focused special relationship ethics - "I'll die to save my children but the rest of you out the airlock" - is a really old way of thinking. It's the less xenophobic philosophies that are the recent arrivals.

I'm not sure what Rich was saying here. It's not immediately obvious from the thread which argument he's getting involved in.Oh, there was a lot going on in that thread...including statements somewhat similar to yours. Let me see if I can find a response, in case that helps clarify anything for you....



You're absolutely wrong here. For example, there are plenty of cases where children had no idea that their parents had committed atrocities or had helped commit atrocities. The fact of the matter is that, yes, Virginia, people can and do do horrible things and otherwise come across as decent people to those who don't know about their actions. It's astounding that you think otherwise.Purple emphasis mine.

You're arguing against something I didn't say. The "Evil Switch" i'm talking about is not the external facade, it's the internal reality of the person. I don't dispute for one second that people can come across as otherwise decent people. Yes, I concur that it is entirely realistic for people who commit horrible atrocities to seem like good people in other situations. But the key word there is, "seem." Being able to act like a good person some of the time does not make one a good person, it makes one a competent actor. Someone mentally and emotionally capable of intentional deliberate mass murder is still capable of mass murder when hugging their child. They're just not doing it that moment.

Tarquin seemed like a decent person when we met him, that's the entire point. It would have been entirely plausible for Tarquin to have never cracked his facade, to continue acting like a calm and collected person who separated his two lives, but I have no interest in writing that. First, it's boring, and second, it sends a message that you can totally commit atrocities and it's OK, that doesn't make you a bad person as long as you pet a dog afterward. Yes, it makes you a bad person. That is the point. That is the message I am consciously conveying with my story, and if you disagree with it, that's fine, I guess. But I'm not going to take, "You conveyed the message you wanted to convey but I don't like it!" as a criticism that I need to pay attention to.

Anyway, the whole thread centered around how Tarquin appeared to have suddenly become a different person when/after he killed Nale...and Kish had the succinct summary (as is frequently the case):
Tarquin has not changed. The creepy control freak who literally did not hear "I don't want to marry you" as anything he needed to care about is exactly the same as the creepy control freak who heard "I want you out of my life" as "I don't want a life." The only difference is that the former was directed at a bit character and the latter at a recurring villain with a name.

A great many people on the board saw him as far cooler, far more powerful, and most especially far more sane than he ever was. Their disappointment was inevitable. A is A, Tarquin is Tarquin. Tarquin doesn't realize Elan would already come back because--in an ironic mirror of posts which treat "ripped the liver out of a living sapient being so that he could have exotic food at his feast" as representing a far lower level of evil than killing Nale--he doesn't realize that burning a few dozen nameless slaves alive is something Elan truly cares about, enough to come after him for; in Tarquin's mind, he hasn't done anything personal to Elan (or Elan's property, such as the redhead with the perky eyes), so he hasn't done anything it makes sense for Elan to come after him for.


This is basically Bugs Bunny and the Road Runner, who I would agree are not great characters but are very popular so obviously many people disagree with us.It doesn't have as much to do with the two of them as characters, though.

Bugs excels at pulling off zany antics on other characters with sufficient detachment that he doesn't appear vindictive; it's really the antics that carry him along. (If you want more of a character to go with that, I recommend Babs Bunny)

And I doubt Road Runner would even be notable if it weren't for the sheer determination of Wil E. Coyote...and how he excels at pulling off zany plans that backfire on himself.

[Mad Humanist]

So the staff of the Mechane have two things to thank Blackwing for:

1. He has cleared the ship of rats.
2. They have a nice stock of rat meat for a nutritious soup.

[Manty5]

I'm just looking forward to the scene where Belkar meets the guy who attacked his cat. All those kobold skulls were getting repetitive...

[dancrilis]

I'm just looking forward to the scene where Belkar meets the guy who attacked his cat. All those kobold skulls were getting repetitive...

If you are talking about Gontor he didn't attack the cat - in fact he went out of his way to setup a fair fight for the him as Mr. Scruffy had indicated a desire for battle.

Thinking about it had Blackwing not engaged Gontor he might have left peacefully and than Blackwing could have warned Vaarsuvius earlier leading to a possible victory for Roy if Vaarsuvius arrived in time to prevent the vampires using the teleport orb.

[Ron Miel]

So the staff of the Mechane have two things to thank Blackwing for:

1. He has cleared the ship of rats.
2. They have a nice stock of rat meat for a nutritious soup.

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Rift_Wolf]

*Wanders in after being away a couple days*

*Finds an alignment argument in full swing*

*Leaps back out of the thread with an alarmed yelp and goes to look for a bowl of psikibble to consume*

I'm eating porridge, but essentially I agree with this sentiment

[Dr.Zero]

I will not discuss about the whole stuff Rich said from a philosophical point (or a scientific point, or a historical point).
I could, but it would derail not only this thread, but the whole subforum. :smallbiggrin:
And anyway it is not so needed, since then the same Rich states that it is only the message he wants to convey (so something he believes and wants to spread, which is totally fine by me, being this his comic).

Instead it is funny, because it is really on topic with this last page full of our animal friends, to read this...



You're arguing against something I didn't say. The "Evil Switch" i'm talking about is not the external facade, it's the internal reality of the person. I don't dispute for one second that people can come across as otherwise decent people.
Yes, I concur that it is entirely realistic for people who commit horrible atrocities to seem like good people in other situations. But the key word there is, "seem." Being able to act like a good person some of the time does not make one a good person, it makes one a competent actor. Someone mentally and emotionally capable of intentional deliberate mass murder is still capable of mass murder when hugging their child. They're just not doing it that moment.

[cut by me...]

it sends a message that you can totally commit atrocities and it's OK, that doesn't make you a bad person as long as you pet a dog afterward. Yes, it makes you a bad person. That is the point.


...and then notice that history's-worst-mass-murderer and The Belkster had their character's developments based literally on a series of "pet the dog" (well, the cat, the lizard-which-was-a-T-Rex and the crow) moments.

Someone could argue that V has remorses and is trying to find a way to atone his (I will refer to V as a male, because I don't want to use s/he, him/her or some fusion like "hir") sins.
But, to begin with, it should be assumed it is an external facade, according to Rich's philosophy.
Then V did start to show realization (not remorse, yet) only after his family reacted in the way it reacted. Not conscience, but plain and simple social pressure.
And remorse only after the power was lost. If it is not an external facade, of course.

For The Belkster, well... :smallbiggrin:

If I should really stick to the quotes above, I should just ignore the comic and think that the literal "pet the dog" moments are there only to show then how I was silly to believe that such monsters had some redeeming virtues.

Or maybe, just maybe, I can stick with what I see in the comic and ignore the quotes. Yeah, on a second thought, I think I will do that. :smalltongue:

[StorytellerHero]

If the other priests' companions are able to leave the summit, we could have a big force to battle against Vampkon after V fireballs the small fries to oblivion.

[KorvinStarmast]

So the staff of the Mechane have two things to thank Blackwing for:

1. He has cleared the ship of rats.
2. They have a nice stock of rat meat for a nutritious soup.
In a survival situation rodent flesh in a soup or stew isn't so bad. Depends on the seasonings and other stuff available.

[Ruck]

I will not discuss about the whole stuff Rich said from a philosophical point (or a scientific point, or a historical point).
I could, but it would derail not only this thread, but the whole subforum. :smallbiggrin:
And anyway it is not so needed, since then the same Rich states that it is only the message he wants to convey (so something he believes and wants to spread, which is totally fine by me, being this his comic).

Instead it is funny, because it is really on topic with this last page full of our animal friends, to read this...



...and then notice that history's-worst-mass-murderer and The Belkster had their character's developments based literally on a series of "pet the dog" (well, the cat, the lizard-which-was-a-T-Rex and the crow) moments.

Someone could argue that V has remorses and is trying to find a way to atone his (I will refer to V as a male, because I don't want to use s/he, him/her or some fusion like "hir") sins.
But, to begin with, it should be assumed it is an external facade, according to Rich's philosophy.
Then V did start to show realization (not remorse, yet) only after his family reacted in the way it reacted. Not conscience, but plain and simple social pressure.
And remorse only after the power was lost. If it is not an external facade, of course.

For The Belkster, well... :smallbiggrin:

If I should really stick to the quotes above, I should just ignore the comic and think that the literal "pet the dog" moments are there only to show then how I was silly to believe that such monsters had some redeeming virtues.

Or maybe, just maybe, I can stick with what I see in the comic and ignore the quotes. Yeah, on a second thought, I think I will do that. :smalltongue:
Or maybe, just maybe, you're misinterpreting what Rich is saying, and there's a difference between a person who has done evil and is trying to redeem himself, vs. a person who continues to do evil knowingly and willingly but convinces himself he's good, because he loves his kids, or for whatever reason. (The TV show The Shield is probably the best story I've seen about a person like this.)