Warlock/Necromancer

[Segev]

As I was pondering the 5e Necromancer and his issue with having to keep careful track of his uses of 3rd level and higher spell slots, it occurred to me that there is another class which could be very useful in that respect.

A Warlock 5 has 2 spell slots that can cast 3rd level spells, and they refresh with a short rest. IIRC, there is no limit to how many short rests one can take (well, aside from "20," if you are an elf and assume that you want a good night's meditation, or "16" if you assume your non-elf needs 8 hours of sleep). The practical limit is probably 3-4 in a given day when you're factoring them in as a part of, say, your morning or evening. Plus 1-2 more during adventuring hours as your buddies take them.

Anyway, a Warlock 5/Necromancer 6 would have, on top of his Wizard spell slots, a short-rest-refreshing 2 spell slots of 3rd level he could use for repeated renewal of animate dead's control over 4 minions per spell slot (and, importantly, has the Necromancer's improved minion stats).

Of course, this has grotesquely slowed down the acquisition of higher-level wizard spells, since Pact Magic doesn't get to use the spiffy combined table. (Admittedly, the higher-level SLOTS are also not all that special without higher-level spells to put in them.) But it definitely lets the 11th-level character have a fairly large number of minions off of a renewing resource.

I suppose the straight warlock is okay for this, too, but he lacks the huge benefit of piling his proficiency bonus onto each of his minions.

But I throw this open to the boards: is this a good cost/benefit trade-off, or is straight warlock or straight necromancer going to be better in all ways? How would you build this, and in what order?

[Sception]

I'm afraid this is not a good trade off, at least not mechanically. As a wizardly necromancer, while Animate Dead's skeletons and zombies are plenty useful, you do want to transition to Create Undead's improved offerings when you can, and a five level delay to that progression is not going to serve you well in the long run.

[Segev]

I'm afraid this is not a good trade off, at least not mechanically. As a wizardly necromancer, while Animate Dead's skeletons and zombies are plenty useful, you do want to Create Undead's improved offerings when you can, and a five level delay to that progression is not going to serve you well in the long run.

*looks up create undead*

Ah, it actually gives you control of the things, in this edition. That's definitely an improvement!

Edit: The Necromancer's 6th-level ability only applies to skeletons and zombies, not to things created by create undead, right?

[Sception]

Pretty sure the necro wizard's boost applies to any undead they create with any necromancy spell.

[Naanomi]

Necromancer 6/Warlock 11... 3 level 5 castings per short rest... Becomes quite the horde

[Laserlight]

I just created an NPC warlock with necro spells -- his patron being the Lords of Death.

[MaxWilson]

Pretty sure the necro wizard's boost applies to any undead they create with any necromancy spell.

Yep. To my knowledge that means it works with Animate Undead, Create Undead, and Finger of Death.

Too bad True Polymorph isn't a necromancy spell too, but at least you can use it to create Mummy Lords for yourself to dominate (after you Feeblemind them).

[Sception]

Necromancer 6/Warlock 11... 3 level 5 castings per short rest... Becomes quite the horde

Regular skeletons and zombies aren't going to do that much for you at level 17, and 'quite the horde' mostly just translates to 'enough that it becomes inconvenient to play with, while still not being a respectable army'. This is not a combo worth giving up Create Undead for, let alone all of the other, even better high level wizard spells (sadly almost none of which are necromancy, that school is actually rather weak and anemic at the moment).

Seriously. Don't bother. And don't multiclass wizard with warlock, their casting stacks poorly, and both their primary stats are the other's dump stat. It's a poor combination. Warlock is a great dipping or multiclassing class, but only for classes that already like charisma (eg: bard, sorcerer, paladin).

[Segev]

I may start another thread for this, but I wonder how well the Warlock's recharge-per-short-rest mechanic can be used to complement another casting class's abilities/spells.

For example, if you have at least two levels of Sorcerer and at least two levels of Warlock, you could sacrifice any unspent Warlock spell slots just before a short rest for sorcery points, which you could convert to (lesser) spell slots for later use. But that's pretty meager, since you're already a whole spell level behind a non-multiclass character. And even if you get 2nd level spells, this won't let you build them from sorcery points you could generate this way.

[MaxWilson]

I may start another thread for this, but I wonder how well the Warlock's recharge-per-short-rest mechanic can be used to complement another casting class's abilities/spells.

For example, if you have at least two levels of Sorcerer and at least two levels of Warlock, you could sacrifice any unspent Warlock spell slots just before a short rest for sorcery points, which you could convert to (lesser) spell slots for later use. But that's pretty meager, since you're already a whole spell level behind a non-multiclass character. And even if you get 2nd level spells, this won't let you build them from sorcery points you could generate this way.

I'm not sure what this last sentence means. A classic Sorlock build would be e.g. Warlock 2/Sorcerer 9, which gives you not only a mean Quickened Eldritch Blast combination but also the ability to (potentially, and cheesily) gain arbitrary numbers of 5th level spell slots as long as you never sleep for six hours at a time. (Just rely on four-hour catnaps.) Every short rest gives you back 2 warlock slots, which turn into 2 sorcery points, and every time you get 7 sorcery points you get another 5th level slot which (per errata) lasts until the next time you long rest.

My favorite (theorycraft) way to abuse Warlock spell slots is with a Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 3/Life Cleric 1/Warlock 5 so that twice per short rest you can cast Extended Aura of Vitality and heal 480 HP. (Though really this is just a severe case of overkill, because what party spends 480 HP per short rest? In real life I barely even see vanilla Aura of Vitality get used, since 70 HP of healing is already plenty.)

[Desamir]

Is Create Undead worth the slot? Three CR1 ghouls at level 11 seems pretty lackluster.

[Segev]

I'm not sure what this last sentence means. A classic Sorlock build would be e.g. Warlock 2/Sorcerer 9, which gives you not only a mean Quickened Eldritch Blast combination but also the ability to (potentially, and cheesily) gain arbitrary numbers of 5th level spell slots as long as you never sleep for six hours at a time. (Just rely on four-hour catnaps.) Every short rest gives you back 2 warlock slots, which turn into 2 sorcery points, and every time you get 7 sorcery points you get another 5th level slot which (per errata) lasts until the next time you long rest.

Good point. I was for some reason thinking of Sorc as the splash, not Warlock.

Though admittedly, getting the party to wait around for a day or so while you fail to take a long rest but a lot of short rests is...probably nontrivial. And might get DMGs thrown at you.

[MaxWilson]

Is Create Undead worth the slot? Three CR1 ghouls at level 11 seems pretty lackluster.

Maybe. Three ghouls mixed in with eight zombies is three chances for the zombies to get a bunch of auto-crits. I confess though, I would only use Create Undead for one of two things:

1.) Humor, to get myself a ghoul servant called Baldrick who eats disgusting stuff and is a half-wit.
2.) (At 15th level) to get myself a wight, who not only does pretty good damage with longbow or dual shortswords but also has enough of a mind to think independently and maybe lead a task force.

In both cases I'd want to leverage Command Undead so that I don't have to blow spell slots every day. And in both cases, get your undead some decent chain mail or scale mail and a shield.

I guess there is a third case actually:

3.) If I were a warlock, and Create Undead (via Mystic Arcanum) were my only means of creating meat shields/worshippers for myself.

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Good point. I was for some reason thinking of Sorc as the splash, not Warlock.

Though admittedly, getting the party to wait around for a day or so while you fail to take a long rest but a lot of short rests is...probably nontrivial. And might get DMGs thrown at you.

Why would the rest of the party care or even know that you're taking a bunch of short rests? When they take their long rest at night, you just make sure you're taking a lot of catnaps instead of a big long nap, and converting spell slots into sorcery points into spell slots every hour.

[Segev]

Why would the rest of the party care or even know that you're taking a bunch of short rests? When they take their long rest at night, you just make sure you're taking a lot of catnaps instead of a big long nap, and converting spell slots into sorcery points into spell slots every hour.

I suppose it means you can take more shifts "on watch" to make sure the DM can't say "nope, that was a long rest." Though you'll have to be mindful of whether you'd get more spells back by just replenishing your sorc spells directly or not.

Good for those days you didn't actually adventure, though.

Really good for an Elf, who can get away with 4 hours of meditation a night and never have that, by itself, count as a "long rest." He just takes a jog or casts a ritual spell every hour or so.