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Skjaldbakka
2007-06-15, 12:57 PM
How low level can you make a character that can take a Balor(solo)?

We will assume 32 point buy, pure average HP, standard wealth, All completes + tome of battle.

Also:
What build, at level 20, can single-handedly defeat the most Balor's consecutively? (same rules, assume every 15 minutes a Balor appears in the room/arena.)

No Gate or Wish Cheese, please.

EDIT-
since people keep bringing up things not in the spirit of this thread:

No diplomancy
The low level build has to win 75% of the time against the Balor.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-15, 01:00 PM
How low level can you make a character that can take a Balor(solo)?

We will assume 32 point buy, pure average HP, standard wealth, All completes + tome of battle.

Also:
What build, at level 20, can single-handedly defeat the most Balor's consecutively? (same rules, assume every 15 minutes a Balor appears in the room/arena.)

No PHB II?

Skyserpent
2007-06-15, 01:00 PM
level 6.
his name is Punpun.

If I have to explain this I will hurt something.

Iku Rex
2007-06-15, 01:03 PM
How low level can you make a character that can take a Balor(solo)?Melee? Buff time? Odds of winning?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-15, 01:04 PM
PunPun cannot be done with the listed books. He requires a Forgotten Realms monster IIRC. And I suppose PHBII should be included in this discussion.

The low level set-up.
-As much prep-time as you want. Assume teleporting into proximity of Balor after whatever prep you would like to do. All prep must be self-cast, and no Leadership. Proximity is defined as optimal range for whatever it is that you are built to do.

brian c
2007-06-15, 01:38 PM
You know, I never exactly noticed this before but:




Summon Demon (Sp)

Once per day a balor can automatically summon 4d10 dretches, 1d4 hezrous, or one nalfeshnee, glabrezu, marilith, or balor. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.


So one Balor can summon one more Balor, who summons another, who summons another, who summons another... ad infinitum. Even if it's a full-round action, that means you need to be able to kill a Balor in one round, otherwise you're fighting all of the Balors in existence


Edit: Ah, okay. ReluctantDragon, don't be sorry, I'm glad it doesn't work that way :) Still though, 1 Balor effectively becomes 2 Balors unless you kill it right away. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm trying to figure out how easy it is to kill one.

ReluctantDragon
2007-06-15, 01:40 PM
A summoned Balor cannot use its summoning ability.

No infinite loops. Sorry.

RD.

Quietus
2007-06-15, 01:41 PM
You know, I never exactly noticed this before but:





So one Balor can summon one more Balor, who summons another, who summons another, who summons another... ad infinitum. Even if it's a full-round action, that means you need to be able to kill a Balor in one round, otherwise you're fighting all of the Balors in existence

Untrue. Note that creatures summoned through this method can't use their own respective summoning abilities for the duration of the summon.

Daedo daShoegod
2007-06-15, 01:45 PM
A summoned creature cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.
If it was "Call Tanar'ri" then the Balors could summon an army, but there would only be two balors and the second balor couldn't use greater teleport or Summon Tanar'ri if the original Balor decided to use that ability.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-06-15, 02:24 PM
Hmm. . .

We need something that can come out of a fight at full health, to get infinite endurance. That means Crusader.

Unfortunately, as a melee without very good mobility, the 'sader is stuck fighting on the Balor's terms.

A Warblade with Iron Heart Endurance might also be able to take it. Of course, then he's stuck fighting at half HP, and needs to do 290 damage.

We're looking at a Master of Nine build, then, for Iron Heart Endurance and Strike of Righteous Vitality. Strike of Perfect Clarity wouldn't hurt either (well, actually it would. A lot. But it won't hurt this guy). The rest can probably be Swordsage, for Evasion (Improved would be nice, but this needs Master of Nine; 3 levels in Mo9 gives both, though), a good reflex save, and access to Shadow Hand mobility maneuvers.

Feats needed: Stormguard Warrior, Robilar's Gambit (that might be PHB2, though; if it is, ignore it), Karmic Strike, prerequisites for Master of Nine. Unfortunately, with prerequisites, this comes to 10 feats (8 without RG), which may mean that it's time for some fighter multiclassing.

Equipment needed: It's nice, but no single item is strictly necessary for this.

There are a few nifty tricks he can use. Mountain Tombstone Strike knocks an average of seven CON off the Balor, which drops it by 60 HP and drops its Death Throes save DC to 27. Then there's a rather nifty tactical combo that he can use:
Round 1: Adamantine Bones. If it hits, offer Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Store AoOs in Stormguard Warrior (six from RG if the balor makes its full attack routine, and more for each hit. The longsword averages 20 damage, +4 for RG, so your DR should eat it most of the time. You then get +4 to hit and damage for each AoO you would have gotten).
Round 2: If your DM allows a counter to be used in reply to Death Throes if you kill it on your turn after taking a swift action, switch stance to Martial Spirit or Aura of Triumph to recoup HP lost to Balor. Avalanche of Blades. Action Before Thought when it dies. If, through some stroke of luck, your attack bonus drops to +30 or below (remember, you're getting +24, at least, from the AoOs you didn't take) before it dies, use Stormguard Warrior (again), this time to make touch attacks; 14 points of its AC come from Dex, so you can get three more guaranteed hits off, for a total of +15 damage per attack on your next round. Doesn't compare to the (at least) +24 you're getting this round, but it helps.
Round 3: If the Balor's still standing, finish it with Time Stands Still. When it dies, use Action Before Thought, just like was planned for round 2.

Extending this to a full-battle schedule:
Round 1: Enter in some useful stance to boost your defenses; Flame's Blessing is nice for fire immunity, especially for as long as the Balor doesn't know you have it. Strike of Righteous Vitality to recover HP lost to previous Balor.
Round 2: Mountain Tombstone Strike; every point knocked off the Death Throes save DC is nice. Possibly swap Round 2 and Round 1, if you're not badly wounded
Round 3: See Round 1 of above tactic.
Round 4: See Round 2 of above tactic.
Round 5: See Round 3 of above tactic.
Round 6: Use Adaptive Style to recover maneuvers.

If it summons another Balor, kill it in exactly the same way.

Countering the Balor's tactics:
Teleport into melee.
Use Mind over Body to counter Implosion; if it tries to Telekinese, you can count on your will save (unless it uses the Combat Maneuver version)
Since it hasn't been full attacking you if it's been using its spells, you're safe from Power Word: Stun. Moment of Perfect Mind beats Insanity
If you use the extended schedule and it uses its given schedule, its full attack coincides with your Adamantine Bones. You just need to win initiative.
Now you're grappled. Doesn't stop use of maneuvers. Go ahead with Avalanche of Blades.
Now it should be dead. If it tries to teleport you away, you kill it.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 02:35 PM
I could do it with a Battle Sorceror. I'll build it later, though. It'd probably look like BSor 7/AbjCh 5/EKn 2/MagTr 3/UnTr 3 at 20th (for the marathon).

For lowest level? Hm. Spellthief 5.

barawn
2007-06-15, 02:43 PM
For lowest level? Hm. Spellthief 5.

Howso? The only thing a Spellthief 5 could do is steal the Balor's resistance. Every single spell like ability is waaay too high for the Spellthief to steal at 5th level.

Jothki
2007-06-15, 02:45 PM
Are you ruling out time-accelerated demiplanes here?

Missing Shoe
2007-06-15, 02:45 PM
The first thing I thought of was shape changing into a Balor and fighting him with his own sword since it is a (Ex) ability.

Sure, not low leveled, but it would be kind of funny.:smallamused:

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-15, 03:09 PM
My vote would be to be a chicken! Level 11 wizard reads Gate scroll, hopes to high heaven to make the caster level check required to use a scroll of a spell w/higher caster level than yourself (or that the mishap STILL summons the solar), summons Solar, prays the Solar beats the balor.

Who here likes to depend heavily on luck? :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 03:27 PM
Howso? The only thing a Spellthief 5 could do is steal the Balor's resistance. Every single spell like ability is waaay too high for the Spellthief to steal at 5th level.

I don't have to thieve his SLAs. I just have to kill him.

Indon
2007-06-15, 03:29 PM
I don't have to thieve his SLAs. I just have to kill him.

All right, I'm curious. How do you use a level 5 Spellthief to kill a Balor?

brian c
2007-06-15, 03:31 PM
I could do it with a Battle Sorceror. I'll build it later, though. It'd probably look like BSor 7/AbjCh 5/EKn 2/MagTr 3/UnTr 3 at 20th (for the marathon).

For lowest level? Hm. Spellthief 5.

Yes, please explain. I know you love spellthieves though, so I'm sure you've got something.

Also, AbjCh is Abjurant Champion, EKn is Eldritch Knight, but what are MagTr and UnTr?



For the Marathon challenge, I have a minor rules question: Vital Recovery, from ToB says that you gain 3+level hp every time you recover one or more maneuvers, but only once per encounter. 15 minutes in between Balors means that you should have more than enough time to recover maneuvers with adaptive style and gain 23hp, if each one counts as a different encounter. My question really is then, could you use Vital Recovery in a battle (say, from recovering a maneuver from Swift Recovery) and then in the time between, and then again in the next battle?

Ramos
2007-06-15, 03:39 PM
For the Marathon thingy: Wish scroll. Bring 20 Solars out of the higher planes to battle the Balor threat for you. Or Gate-to call a 40 HD Solar. In both instances the called creatures can kill an infinite amount of Balors if they come one by one.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 03:44 PM
Yes, please explain. I know you love spellthieves though, so I'm sure you've got something.

Also, AbjCh is Abjurant Champion, EKn is Eldritch Knight, but what are MagTr and UnTr?

I'll explain when I get home from work. MagTr is Magical Trickster, UnTr is Uncanny Trickster.

barawn
2007-06-15, 04:32 PM
I don't have to thieve his SLAs. I just have to kill him.

Yes, but unless you've got some amazingly great idea for 10 points of energy resistance, what in the world can a spellthief do at 5th level vs a Balor that a simple rogue couldn't?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-15, 04:36 PM
A spellthief has a spell list, and can therefore UMD the spells off that list easier than a rogue could.

greenknight
2007-06-15, 04:45 PM
For the marathon, rather than Gating a Solar, Gate a Titan because they can Gate in other Titans. That gives you an infinite Titan loop.

For the single Balor challenge, a 1st level Cleric could do it, if we ignore the standard WBL guidelines. Just have an Orange Ioun Stone and a Bead of Karma (to increase effective caster level), and a scroll of Gate, used to Gate in an Evil Titan to start the Titan Chain above (Evil to overcome DR). Take the Luck Domain to allow a re-roll, and there's an almost 70% of activating the scroll without mishap. With standard wealth, a 5th level Cleric with the Luck Domain has an almost 58% chance of activating the scroll without any of the other items (and can afford the scroll, barely).

Jacob Orlove
2007-06-15, 04:57 PM
Or you could, you know, use a Candle of Invocation. It's cheaper, too!

barawn
2007-06-15, 05:13 PM
For the marathon, rather than Gating a Solar, Gate a Titan because they can Gate in other Titans. That gives you an infinite Titan loop.

I've said this many, many times before, but that doesn't work the way you want it to. Infinity doesn't work that way. There's no a priori reason to assume there are an unlimited number of titans who have not used Gate that day, because there's no reason to assume that it's a proportionate restriction.

greenknight
2007-06-15, 05:16 PM
Or you could, you know, use a Candle of Invocation. It's cheaper, too!

You're right, and that means the solution to either problem is really just any character of 5th level (preferably CE, although any Chaotic would work) who uses the Candle to start a Titan chain.

[EDIT]
There's no a priori reason to assume there are an unlimited number of titans who have not used Gate that day, because there's no reason to assume that it's a proportionate restriction.

You might house rule it that way, but otherwise, I'm correct.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-15, 05:19 PM
For the marathon, rather than Gating a Solar, Gate a Titan because they can Gate in other Titans. That gives you an infinite Titan loop.

For the single Balor challenge, a 1st level Cleric could do it, if we ignore the standard WBL guidelines. Just have an Orange Ioun Stone and a Bead of Karma (to increase effective caster level), and a scroll of Gate, used to Gate in an Evil Titan to start the Titan Chain above (Evil to overcome DR). Take the Luck Domain to allow a re-roll, and there's an almost 70% of activating the scroll without mishap. With standard wealth, a 5th level Cleric with the Luck Domain has an almost 58% chance of activating the scroll without any of the other items (and can afford the scroll, barely).
Infinite prep time?

Well, if you don't mind cheese....


Candle of Invocation: Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.

A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp;Weight 1/2 lb.
(Emphasis added).
How high do you have to be to buy one? Regardless..

You get a Lawful Evil candle of Invocation, and use it to Gate in an Efreeti, which you then command you to grant you three wishes - all of which you use for Candles of Invocation (Lawful Evil); it's on the safe list. Two you use to Gate in Pit Fiends just before the Balor arrives, the third you use to Gate in another Efreeti... which you then command to give you three wishes....

Two Pit Fiends ought to be able to handle a single Balor routinely, especially when the Balor comes in at a known time, right? If not, you double up on the trick, and Call four pit fiends at a time. You've got 15 minutes between bouts. Spend a Wish somewhere along the line to pick up a Ring of Invisibility, and stay out of the Balor's True Seeing range, and you're set. Provided you're immortal (play an Elan, and find some way to get that nifty ability which halts your physical deterioration).

barawn
2007-06-15, 05:23 PM
You might house rule it that way, but otherwise, I'm correct.

It's not a house rule! Unless there's a specific rule somewhere that says "there are an infinite number of Titans who have not used their Gate ability and are willing to be called and use their Gate ability" (or any number of those restrictions), it's specifically DM's choice.

Adding restrictions onto "infinity" does not equal "infinity." It's indeterminate.

Piccamo
2007-06-15, 06:45 PM
It's not a house rule! Unless there's a specific rule somewhere that says "there are an infinite number of Titans who have not used their Gate ability and are willing to be called and use their Gate ability" (or any number of those restrictions), it's specifically DM's choice.

Adding restrictions onto "infinity" does not equal "infinity." It's indeterminate.

Are you sure you know how house rules work?

barawn
2007-06-15, 09:27 PM
Are you sure you know how house rules work?

Yes. A house rule is a rule that applies only in a certain location. This isn't one. If you say "Titans can gate in an infinite number of Titans" - that's not true. They only can if the DM is running the game in a world where there are an infinite number of Titans who can gate in other Titans. That applies everywhere.

This isn't a modification to the official rules, because there is no official rule regarding this. The fact that the plane where the Titans are on is infinite on according to the core rules does not imply anything about the number of Titans.

Just because one DM generates a world that contains a stupid infinite loop doesn't mean that anyone else would. And it certainly doesn't imply that every RAW D&D world does.

Ditto
2007-06-15, 09:49 PM
There is no limit on the number of humans that exist in the world anywhere, is there? Is there some relative limit on Titans? If you can't assume an infinite or relatively inifinite (enough to summon every day, rest, come back with a Gate ready again - which isn't an *impossibly* high number at all), then you might as well say there's only one Titan in existence. This gate-upon-gate trick is ludicrous, but it's a perfectly legal loophole.

The reason summons are prevented from summoning other summons is the underlying supposition that without this rule laid out by the universe, a balor would go right on summoning summons who summon summons forever. Luckily, there's a rule. For Titans, there isn't. We can only assume it is the will of the Wizards. Or an oversight. Either way, that's the RAW for ya. :smallbiggrin:


Yes. A house rule is a rule that applies only in a certain location. This isn't one. If you say "Titans can gate in an infinite number of Titans" - that's not true. They only can if the DM is running the game in a world where there are an infinite number of Titans who can gate in other Titans. That applies everywhere.

This isn't a modification to the official rules, because there is no official rule regarding this. The fact that the plane where the Titans are on is infinite on according to the core rules does not imply anything about the number of Titans.

I don't understand why you think there's only three titans on that infinite plane. Or was it thirteen? Seventy-two? :smallamused: Given an infinitely large plane, it's actually *highly likely* that an infinite number of titans will eventually populate it, all things being equal. But until you show me a sign that says "Titanville, Population 12", then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that scads of titans do not, in fact, exist.

PC: I have my titan friend gate in another titan.
DM: He can't.
PC: Why?
DM: There aren't any left. That's what it says in the rules.
PC: ...

barawn
2007-06-15, 09:58 PM
It's a legitimate loophole in the same sense as "My DM allowed my monk to have an I Win button, which the rules don't say isn't possible, therefore monks rule!"

I shouldn't even be talking about the DM. It doesn't assume anything about the DM. It assumes a detail about the universe that the player's in - a detail that isn't clarified in the rules anywhere at all.


We can only assume it is the will of the Wizards. Or an oversight.

Or there are finite numbers of Titans. There are numbers between 1 and infinity.

Heck, there could be zero Titans left alive, and the description was just put in there for fun. They got rid of all of the "frequency" rules from AD&D, after all.

barawn
2007-06-15, 10:02 PM
Given an infinitely large plane, it's actually *highly likely* that an infinite number of titans will eventually populate it, all things being equal.

This is the assumption that's faulty mathematics.

You're assuming that the number of titans is, in some way, related to the size of the plane in a manner such that, if X is the size of the plane, then 1) there exists some function f(X) which gives the number of Titans on a plane of said size, and 2) that f(X) goes to infinity as X goes to infinity.

Neither assumption (1) nor (2) need to be true.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-15, 10:02 PM
Cleric: *Summons Titan* "Begin infinite loop! Buahaha!"
Titan: "Um... you see... I already Gated Jill over for tea this morning and... ...yeah. Boy, are my cheeks red..."
Cleric: "..."

Ditto
2007-06-15, 10:22 PM
Gak! Poorly wordedness! Let me try again...

Your example, Phwarrr, is DMing. :smalltongue:


It's a legitimate loophole in the same sense as "My DM allowed my monk to have an I Win button, which the rules don't say isn't possible, therefore monks rule!"
Um... buh? 'My DM allowed' =/= Legitimate loophole. 'Legitimate' means interpretation isn't necessary, yes?


I shouldn't even be talking about the DM. It doesn't assume anything about the DM. It assumes a detail about the universe that the player's in - a detail that isn't clarified in the rules anywhere at all. Or there are finite numbers of Titans. There are numbers between 1 and infinity.
Of course. And your mathematical point is certainly sound - I was speaking in the 'Phenominal waves of titans as far as the eye can see!' sense, not at all the literal 'concept of infinity' sense. That said, there is at least one titan - it has a stat block, they talk about its plane, etc. It's there. And again, there's no stated or implied upper bound on the titan population, is there? You'd only need 1460 titans for one per round per day, and that's hardly on the far end of infinity.

Also, fighting over the number of titans is sort of the second stage of quibbling against this tactic. The trick seems to be limited *only* by the number of titans... the logic itself is sound, thanks to the handy lack of a 'Summons no summon!' tag.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-15, 10:45 PM
The trick seems to be limited *only* by the number of titans...

Assuming none of those titans have used their Gate ability already that day. And what are the odds of getting a titan who already has? 50/50? 60/40? 90/10? 99.9999/0.0001?

My example, while DMing, could easily be set percentile (roll %, 5%> means that the titan has used its Gate already today). Even if you assume infinite titans, that doesn't mean you can assume all of those titans have a free Gate ability handy--it doesn't say that your summoned titan will have it, and my PHB doesn't say that you can specify that as part of the spell. Since there aren't rules for the odds of the titan's ability being used listed, it goes outside of RAW.

Ditto
2007-06-15, 11:50 PM
Why would you assume it's used it at all? The stat block lists the abilities for a critter so that it will have that trick at its disposal when it runs into the party... further, the entry actually talks about using gate - "A titan usually reserves its gate and etherealness abilities to escape a fight that is not going well." If you want to get mathy, start calculating how many times a day a CR 21 creature will find itself in a fight that's not going well on its home plane. :smallconfused:

I've never heard of the RAW being used to justify random uses of SLAs...

Dausuul
2007-06-16, 12:47 AM
Why would you assume it's used it at all? The stat block lists the abilities for a critter so that it will have that trick at its disposal when it runs into the party... further, the entry actually talks about using gate - "A titan usually reserves its gate and etherealness abilities to escape a fight that is not going well." If you want to get mathy, start calculating how many times a day a CR 21 creature will find itself in a fight that's not going well on its home plane. :smallconfused:

I've never heard of the RAW being used to justify random uses of SLAs...

Regardless, I think it's pretty clear that the answer to the first challenge is a level 5 character with a candle of invocation. Summon a solar and let the solar have at the balor. One solar can certainly beat one balor, as long as it's smart enough to lead off with dimensional anchor. Which it gets at will.

As for builds that can do the marathon at level 20, lead off with a ring of three wishes and use it to wish for more rings of three wishes (and no, there is no XP cap on rings of wishes by RAW, even though that's very likely the intent). Repeat as often as you like. Once you have a suitably gargantuan supply, use them to conjure up candles of invocation. Then use those candles to summon...

...balors. You know there's an infinite supply of balors available, since you're going to be fighting them. Just make every balor fight 17 other balors first. :smallbiggrin:

(Some advice for taking this thread back toward its original intent: Add some house rules to the challenge. "No gate spells or anything that can produce gate spells" and "You have to pay the XP cost of any magic item or SLA under your control that produces a spell effect with an XP cost" should top the list.)

Jack_Simth
2007-06-16, 01:07 AM
(and no, there is no XP cap on rings of wishes by RAW, even though that's very likely the intent)
Well, it's not spelled out, but...

Market Price: This gold piece value, given following the word “Price,” represents the price someone should expect to pay to buy the item. The market price for an item that can be constructed with an item creation feat is usually equal to the base price plus the price for any components (material or XP).

Cost to Create: The next part of a notational entry is the cost in gp and XP to create the item, given following the word “Cost.” This information appears only for items with components (material or XP), which make their market prices higher than their base prices. The cost to create includes the costs derived from the base cost plus the costs of the components. Items without components do not have a “Cost” entry. For them, the market price and the base price are the same. The cost in gp is 1/2 the market price, and the cost in XP is 1/25 the market price.(Emphasis added)
and

In addition, some items cast or replicate spells with costly material components or with XP components. For these items, the market price equals the base price plus an extra price for the spell component costs. Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price. The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components. Descriptions of these items include an entry that gives the total cost of creating the item.(Emphasis added)

A Wish to make a magic item has an additional XP cost, which is listed under the XP components line for the spell.


Three Wishes: This ring is set with three rubies. Each ruby stores a wish spell, activated by the ring. When a wish is used, that ruby disappears. For a randomly generated ring, roll 1d3 to determine the remaining number of rubies. When all the wishes are used, the ring becomes a nonmagical item.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 20th; Forge Ring, wish or miracle; Price 97,950 gp; Cost 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP.
Double the materials cost makes for 22,950 gp for the base market price. 1 25th of that for the XP cost before components for the three Wish spells makes for 918 xp. A Ring of Wishes with three wishes thus spends 15,000 XP on the XP component for the Wishes - and with three of them, that's exactly 5,000 XP each - the bare minimum for a Wish. The XP component is not present in a Ring of Three Wishes to cover any aspect of Wish that would incurr a greater XP expenditure.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-16, 01:20 AM
(Some advice for taking this thread back toward its original intent: Add some house rules to the challenge. "No gate spells or anything that can produce gate spells" and "You have to pay the XP cost of any magic item or SLA under your control that produces a spell effect with an XP cost" should top the list.)

Whole-heartedly agreed! I feel at fault for even mentioning the word "Gate" in the first place! :smallredface:

I considered a few other mage ideas, but I'm afraid the Balor's Greater Dispel Magic at will kind of makes them fruitless.

brian c
2007-06-16, 11:39 AM
(this is intended for the marathon, obviously)

Swordsage 20

on a 32-point buy:

Str 14
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 8

then levels 4,8,12,16,20 ability boosts gives me a total of:


Str 15
Dex 22
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 8

I'm not going to make this detailed, but here's the gist. Obviously I take Weapon Finesse, and I get Adaptive Style, Rapid Assault, Discipline Focus (Tiger Claw), Improved Initiative, Blooded, Vital Recovery, Swift Recovery, and TWF feats.

Maneuvers known needs to include the following: Iron Heart Stance (Iron Heart), Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind), Stance of CLarity (Diamond Mind), Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (Tiger Claw) and Raging Mongoose (Tiger Claw).

20th level swordsage has BAB +15/+10/+5, with Greater TWF that's a total of 6 attacks I think (correct me if I'm wrong). Since I'll be acting before him, he's flat-footed, AC 28.

Why am I acting before him? Because I have +17 to initiative, and that's not including the fact that I would have even more Dex from items/tomes that I'm not bothering to work out. My total + to initiative should be around +21 probably, which is 10 higher than the Balor. I'm going first almost 90% of the time. Also, I'm obviously going to get Good, Cold Iron weapons to overcome his DR, so just get that out of the way.

Get into the Iron Heart Stance, increases all melee attacks damage by +1d6. Next, use Time Stands Still to get an extra full attack in the same round. Dual-boost GWFR and Raging Mongoose for a net effect of 4 extra attacks and rend damage on the Balor.

So here's the technique: Attack, attack, attack. Say I'm using Kukris (good crit range, and since they're Tiger Claw weapons I get Weapon Focus in them), that's 1d4 + 1d6 (Ironheart) + 1d6 (Rapid assault). I have 6 total attacks at my highest bonus (4 from Raging Mongoose, 2 because I get 2 full attacks) so those should be almost assured of hitting, that's 6d4+12d6 damage, plus 16d6 rend damage from 6 hits. 6d4+18d6 averages out to 78, max of 132. I still get 10 more attacks, and even if only 6 of those hit that's another 6d4+12d6, and an added 4d6 rend damage (that Balor is lucky rend damage caps at 20d6 for 8 hits). Anyway, total damage right now is looking at 12d4+34d6 which is 139 average, not to mention the fact that I'd do extra damage from strength and holy/sonic/axiomatic enchantments. Let's say that "extras" average to 6 per attack, and that's another 72 damage, and with the kukri critical range I'd probably have two criticals, so an extra 12 damage or so (2d4 plus some of the "extras"). Adding all of that in, it brings me to 223 damage in one round, on average. Max damage would be about 300, and more criticals only increases that. I could kill a Balor in one round, but I'm almost certain to knock off 3/4 of it's hp. I'm assuming that all Balors have 290hp- anyone with less is getting their ass handed to them, anyone with more is a bit more challenging.

Anyway, so the balor should be dead in 1-2 rounds, at which point I use Adaptive Style to recover all of my maneuvers, also gaining 23hp from Vital Recovery. Not much I know, but Swordsage 20 with that Con is going to get an average of 150hp. If it's allowed in the rules, I can screw around with some maneuver and recover it again for +23hp, depending on your definition of "encounter".

The dual-boost trick only works 3 times/day, but I can still do Time Stands Still every encounter and do one of those boosts each round. Swift Recovery lets me gain hp and get back Time Stands Still if I get into a fight longer than 1 round. Since TSS is a full-round initiation, I can recover it and use it in the same round, but without any boosts in that round. Stance of Clarity is for switching into if the fight is longer and I need the +2 AC (instead of -2 AC from Ironheart Stance).

This may seem a bit stretched, but I'll go back later and actually equip myself and see how it goes. Also, I could make this about a thousand times stronger if I'm allowed to use two of the Nine Swords legacy weapons :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2007-06-16, 12:07 PM
Using wands of shrink item and telekinesis, my 1st level wizard could pretty well destroy any number of balors (or a higher level wizard, if gp limits are enforced), especially if they come in one at a time (...if he can hit their ACs, which isn't hard, if he has true strike up). Of course, a 15th level wizard could destroy entire pantheons of gods, assuming he can hit their ACs.

Wizards are utterly broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127)

Use permanency on the shrunken boulders for greater effect.

brian c
2007-06-16, 12:12 PM
Using wands of shrink item and telekinesis, my 1st level wizard could pretty well destroy any number of balors (up to his gp limit), especially if they come in one at a time (...if he can hit their ACs, which isn't hard, if he has true strike up). Of course, a 15th level wizard could destroy entire pantheons of gods, assuming he can hit their ACs.

Wizards are utterly broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127)

Use permanency on the shrunken boulders for greater effect.

Depends... are you hitting their regular AC of 35, or their touch AC of 16? It'd be hard to hit 35 at level 1 even with True Strike.

Old_el_Paso
2007-06-16, 12:37 PM
Assuming none of those titans have used their Gate ability already that day. And what are the odds of getting a titan who already has? 50/50? 60/40? 90/10? 99.9999/0.0001?

My example, while DMing, could easily be set percentile (roll %, 5%> means that the titan has used its Gate already today). Even if you assume infinite titans, that doesn't mean you can assume all of those titans have a free Gate ability handy--it doesn't say that your summoned titan will have it, and my PHB doesn't say that you can specify that as part of the spell. Since there aren't rules for the odds of the titan's ability being used listed, it goes outside of RAW.
If it's greater than 5 it's already used? I'm seriously thinking less than 5 percent would.

lord_khaine
2007-06-16, 01:23 PM
just a minor detail, a wand can only contain a lv 4 or lower.
for that matter, how are you planning on destroying a Balor at lv 1 with those wands, before he nukes you?

Ditto
2007-06-16, 03:27 PM
Hm... ring of invisibility, win initiative, convince him to stand on the big X you painted directly underneath of your box of boulders?

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-16, 03:44 PM
Using wands of shrink item and telekinesis, my 1st level wizard could pretty well destroy any number of balors (or a higher level wizard, if gp limits are enforced), especially if they come in one at a time (...if he can hit their ACs, which isn't hard, if he has true strike up). Of course, a 15th level wizard could destroy entire pantheons of gods, assuming he can hit their ACs.

Wizards are utterly broken. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10757216&postcount=127)

Use permanency on the shrunken boulders for greater effect.

Does it actually say that shrinking an object doesn't affect its mass?

Also: presumably you'd only be able to sling a single stone a round, and if you miss (likely) the Balor will slaughter you.

Plus, we're sticking with the Wealth By Level guidelines (IIRC), so you wouldn't have that many wands at first level.

Ditto
2007-06-16, 04:07 PM
You could put them all in one box, little patches stacked on top of one another, and drop the box. And I believe the shrinks to ~1/4000 of the original weight.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-16, 05:46 PM
If it's greater than 5 it's already used? I'm seriously thinking less than 5 percent would.

Look again at the greater than/less than symbol. Remember kids, it chomps the bigger number!

Regardless, 5% was an arbitrary number.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-16, 10:04 PM
Shadow Creature Template from Lords of Madness would be nice. Since that book's out, find some other way to acquire Fast Healing.

15 minutes=15*10=150 rounds. This lets you heal ~150 HP for every point of Fast Healing you have, between fights. Assuming you can take less than that amount per Balor, the only limit after that is X/day stuff.

brian c
2007-06-16, 10:08 PM
Shadow Creature Template from Lords of Madness would be nice. Since that book's out, find some other way to acquire Fast Healing.

15 minutes=15*10=150 rounds. This lets you heal ~150 HP for every point of Fast Healing you have, between fights. Assuming you can take less than that amount per Balor, the only limit after that is X/day stuff.

And that's why it's best to be a martial adept, because maneuvers recharge every encounter. My exact build may not be the best, but Swordsage 20 or Swordsage 15/Master of Nine 5 is probably the most efficient.

herrhauptmann
2007-06-17, 01:22 AM
Out of curiousity, what tactics will the balors be using?
If they're going to wade up and start fighting immediately, you could probably get a good number of balors before you die. You'd need a holy cold iron weapon for best results, and fire resistance out to wazoo, but it could work.

If you don't have the fire resistance you need, I don't think you'll survive past round 7 going toe to toe.
Then there's the Balor's firestorm. They count as what, 20th level sorcerors right? So 20d6 fire damage, reflex for half, and that damage is done to a total of 40 10ftx10ft cubes...
I think, he'd start out with summoning a Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee, Marilith or another Balor, then a targeted greater dispel magic to remove some of your buffs. The initial Balor could then just stay in the back pounding you with spelllike abilities and repeated targeted Greater Dispels, while his minion pounds you into the ground. If you state that you'll take levels in rogue to avoid the fire storm, what about if you get slapped with a power word stun? Balors got it at will. Then while you're stunned, he pulls you into his flames. You're stunned so you can't escape, nor can you use healing spells on yourself.

That, is an idea of what I would do as the DM for the balor. But as it is, I have a tendency to kill off players with level appropriate fights.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-17, 03:30 AM
Assume that the Balor will use the best possible tactics against you it has available, which also assumes it knows your build and tactics (since you know its stats and vulnerabilites, that's only fair).

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-17, 06:14 AM
So thinking it over some more, Fast Healing creature(undecided as of this time), plus Warlock X, should be able to slaughter Balors all day, as long as he stays out of range and has enough damage to beat whatever Fast Healing/Regeneration it has(which, apparently, it doesn't).

Given the Balor has 290 HP, Eldritch blast has 3.5 damage per d6, it takes "83/number of d6s in your Blast" rounds to take down the Balor(assume that by round 83, it is bleeding to death).

Personally, the biggest hurdle would be "Blasphemy at will.", unless you're Evil. The "Alignment Word" spells are broken as all hell.

By the way, SRD lists the vorpal sword as (Su), and not (Ex).

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-17, 06:17 AM
How does a warlock stay out of the Balor's range? *cough*fly speed*cough*teleport at will*cough*

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-17, 08:32 AM
How does a warlock stay out of the Balor's range? *cough*fly speed*cough*teleport at will*cough*

Warlocks get Expeditious Retreat SLA I think.

brian c
2007-06-17, 11:58 AM
Out of curiousity, what tactics will the balors be using?
If they're going to wade up and start fighting immediately, you could probably get a good number of balors before you die. You'd need a holy cold iron weapon for best results, and fire resistance out to wazoo, but it could work.

If you don't have the fire resistance you need, I don't think you'll survive past round 7 going toe to toe.
Then there's the Balor's firestorm. They count as what, 20th level sorcerors right? So 20d6 fire damage, reflex for half, and that damage is done to a total of 40 10ftx10ft cubes...
I think, he'd start out with summoning a Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee, Marilith or another Balor, then a targeted greater dispel magic to remove some of your buffs. The initial Balor could then just stay in the back pounding you with spelllike abilities and repeated targeted Greater Dispels, while his minion pounds you into the ground. If you state that you'll take levels in rogue to avoid the fire storm, what about if you get slapped with a power word stun? Balors got it at will. Then while you're stunned, he pulls you into his flames. You're stunned so you can't escape, nor can you use healing spells on yourself.

That, is an idea of what I would do as the DM for the balor. But as it is, I have a tendency to kill off players with level appropriate fights.

First round, 223 damage. On average.

Wehrkind
2007-06-17, 12:22 PM
There needs to be a sitcom where the irate Titan father gates his daughter in from dates all the time as a running gag. The scene could be her leaning in to kiss some boy, then -pop- he boy kisses some awkward thing (car seat or something) as she appears in the living room puckered up.

"And just what were you up to young lady! It's past curfew!"
"Nothing!"

There is probably a lot of sitcom value in the home lives of various D&D critters, presuming anyone would get the jokes.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-17, 12:35 PM
I thought there was a rule someplace that states that summoned creatures cannot summon other creatures. Ergo no infinite loop titans.

Green Bean
2007-06-17, 12:56 PM
I thought there was a rule someplace that states that summoned creatures cannot summon other creatures. Ergo no infinite loop titans.

There is, but Gate is a Calling spell. Calling =/= Summoning (among other things, a summoned creature disappears back to it's place of origin when it dies, but a called one actually dies)

brian c
2007-06-17, 01:10 PM
Since it's been a while since I posted that huge thing up above, I'm going to explain my build in a new post.

20th level WBL is 760,000gp.

I spend a total of 441,236gp on a pair of shortswords with the following properties:

Masterwork Cold Iron Kukri = 616 gp (each)

Bane(evil outsiders) = +1 bonus equivalent
Bane(chaotic outsiders) = +1 bonus equivalent
Axiomatic = +2 bonus equivalent
Holy = +2 bonus equivalent
+4 enhancement

+10 total enhancement equivalent = 220,000gp (each)

So my shortswords against a Balor have +8 to hit and +8+4d6 to damage (which averages to 22). And I still have 318,764 gold to play with.

Armor: as a swordsage, I can wear light armor. +10 armor costs 100,000gp so I'll take that off right away and say I have 218,764gp left. Mithral chain shirt costs 1,100gp so I'm at 217,664gp and now I choose my armor enhancements:

Fire Resistance, Greater = 66,000 gp (so I'm at 151,664 gp)
Spell Resistance 19 = +5 bonus
+5 enhancement bonus

Thats +5 enhancement, +4 armor and +6 dexterity to give me 25 AC. Now for other items:

Remember my stats are

Str 15, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8

So I get the following (with gp left listed)


manual of gainful exercise +1: 124,164 left

Gloves of dexterity +6: 88,164 left

amulet of health +6: 52,164 left

belt of giant strength +6: 16,164 left

dusty rose ioun stone: 11,164 left

ring of protection +2: 3,164 left

cloak of resistance +1: 2,164 left


My effective stats are now

Str 22, Dex 28, Con 22, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8

With AC = 28 and hp = 20d8+120 which averages to 210.

With Weapon Finesse, my highest attack bonus is 15(base) + 9(dex) +8(enhancement) + 1 (weapon focus from swordsage) -2(TWF) = +32

My full attack, with Greater TWF and two Kukris is:
+31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21 and as I discussed before, I should get a lot of attacks against the Balor flatfooted (AC 28) so I have to roll: 2/2/2/2/7/7 to hit with each attack respectively. There's about a 40% chance that I hit all 6 times.

Saves are +22 ref, +13 fort, +12 will, with improved evasion.

Feats: Blooded (1), Swift Recovery (Human 1), Weapon Finesse (3), TWF (6), Improved TWF(9), Greater TWF (12), Rapid Assault (15), Improved Iniative (18).

My initiative is +4 (improved init) +9 (dex)+2 (blooded)+5 (swordsage) = +20. With the Balor at +11, I go first about 85% of the time.

Oh, and damage: each hit is 1d4 + 6 (str) + 9 (enhancement) + 4d6 (holy+axiomatic) for one Kukri, and 1d4+3+9+4d6 for the other, and they bypass damage reduction.

If I hit with everything on a full attack, that's 6d4+76+24d6 = 175 average. Since I'll miss about twice on average, 4d4+49+16d6 = 115 on a full attack.

Time Stands Still gives me two of those, and figure at least one critical for about 250 or so damage...

Plus 4 attacks from Raging Mongoose that should all hit for another ~115, and Girallon Windmill Fleshrip adds in 20d6 of rend damage, Rapid Assault and Ironheart Stance add 1d6 per hit, so the grand total is about 44d6 extra damage, which averages to 154.

Total approximate damage in one round: 519.

Maximum hp for a Balor: 360

Minimum Damage in one round (same chance of hitting, but no criticals and all damage rolls are 1) : 271

Iku Rex
2007-06-17, 03:14 PM
My goal: Keep killing balors for days.

Problems:

Vorpal sword
Melee damage
Grapple
Spell-like abilities (including blasphemy, save-or-dies, unholy aura and greater dispel magic)
Summon ability
Death Throes

My solution: A favored soul using Divine Metamagic to make shapechange persistent, then killing the balors using melee buffs and the form of a Huge iron golem.

The iron golem is key because it solves several major problems: The balor's spell-like abilities, the ability damage from unholy aura and the inevitable double natural 20 hits with the vorpal sword. The size, DR, natural armor and enormous strength are just handy fringe benefits.

I haven't finished all the details yet, but here are the basics:

Favored Soul (CDiv) 5/ Church Inquisitor 3 (CDiv) / Sacred Exorcist 6 (CDiv) / Contemplative 6 (CDiv)

Three levels church inquisitor provides prerequisite skills. Five levels sacred exorcist provides consecrate ability and, more importantly, turn undead (at level 1). Six levels of contemplative provides two domains, among them the animal domain for shapechange.

Feats:

Extend Spell (1), Persistent Spell (1)(CArc), Silent Spell (3), Improved Toughness (6)(CWar), Divine Metamagic (9) (CDiv), Divine Spell Power (12) (CDiv), Extra Turning (15), Extra Turning (18)

Divine Spell power is used to pump the caster level. With a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag), an Orange Ioun Stone, a Bead of Karma and a guaranteed high turning check it can provide enough of a caster level boost to make it impossible for a balor to dispell the key buffs.

The weapon (I'm thinking greatsword) should be merciful. That way the balor won't actually die (and deal 100/50 points of untyped damage to its killer) when it's brought down. The character can kill it off in his own time after healing all previous damage in a shapechange form with fast healing.

A Ring of Freedom of Movement (or the spell cast several times) prevents grapples.

As far as I can tell favored souls get spells once/day and don't have to do anything for this to happen. Food and water can be provided with magic. I couldn't find any specific rules for sleep deprivation (?), but it seems to involve fatigue and that can be handled with a lowly lesser restoration.

AC should be 51 (only hit on natural 20) and the attack bonus as high as possible. Doable.

I think a character like this could go on killing balors almost indefinitely if they don't get too clever. I'll posts some combat stats tomorrow.

If anyone has questions, suggestions or a burning desire to point out a flaw in my plan, go right ahead.

Edit: Oh, as for the other challenge I'll go with a 1st level commoner with Str 18 and a scythe. He's capable of dealing 50+ damage and the balor might roll a natural 1 on its death from massive damage save. :smallwink:

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-17, 04:47 PM
Flaw #1 Vorpal can still remove your head, even as a golem. It doesn't kill you, because Golems don't need their heads.

Flaw#2 When the Balor starts to lose, it can kill itself out of spite, setting off the Death Throes.

Flaw#3 Magic Items can be dispelled, often easier than your clvl ? buffs.

Flaw #4

Assume that the Balor will use the best possible tactics against you it has available, which also assumes it knows your build and tactics (since you know its stats and vulnerabilites, that's only fair).

Flaw #5
You didn't include a counter for its summoning ability.

Flaw with low-level build- You need a 75% chance to win. He needs two nat 20s to confirm the crit, and then the Balor needs to roll a nat 1. That's what, a .01% chance? Not that I think you were being serious.

Regarding swordsage build. I am fairly certain multiple banes don't stack.

Dausuul
2007-06-17, 05:03 PM
Out of curiousity, what tactics will the balors be using?
If they're going to wade up and start fighting immediately, you could probably get a good number of balors before you die. You'd need a holy cold iron weapon for best results, and fire resistance out to wazoo, but it could work.

If you don't have the fire resistance you need, I don't think you'll survive past round 7 going toe to toe.
Then there's the Balor's firestorm. They count as what, 20th level sorcerors right? So 20d6 fire damage, reflex for half, and that damage is done to a total of 40 10ftx10ft cubes...
I think, he'd start out with summoning a Glabrezu, Nalfeshnee, Marilith or another Balor, then a targeted greater dispel magic to remove some of your buffs. The initial Balor could then just stay in the back pounding you with spelllike abilities and repeated targeted Greater Dispels, while his minion pounds you into the ground. If you state that you'll take levels in rogue to avoid the fire storm, what about if you get slapped with a power word stun? Balors got it at will. Then while you're stunned, he pulls you into his flames. You're stunned so you can't escape, nor can you use healing spells on yourself.

That, is an idea of what I would do as the DM for the balor. But as it is, I have a tendency to kill off players with level appropriate fights.

Yeah, the power word stun and dominate monster at will are brutal. Smart balors should almost always lead off a fight with one of those two abilities, or implosion. And don't forget the Quickened telekinetic grapple.

Iku Rex
2007-06-17, 05:50 PM
Some good points here, but I'd say they're more "keep in mind" stuff for the finished char than actual flaws.

Flaw #1 Vorpal can still remove your head, even as a golem. It doesn't kill you, because Golems don't need their heads.Like you said, he's still alive. If the DM rules that the golem's sight ability is located in the head that will make things a little trickier, but the balor can be beaten easily enough even with a 50% miss chance. The head can be grown back with a regenerate spell, or possibly with regeneration through shapechange or even a simple shapechange into a form with a head. (It's not clear if the spell creates new body parts if they're missing - IIRC Rules of the Game suggested it does.)


Flaw#2 When the Balor starts to lose, it can kill itself out of spite, setting off the Death Throes.Killing itself may not be as easy as all that. Anyway, this will only be an issue if the balor is frightened by the merciful subdual damage before getting knocked out, and the character has already lost so many hit points that he's only got 99 left and he fails his save (otherwise it's 49 HP left).



Flaw#3 Magic Items can be dispelled, often easier than your clvl ? buffs.Caster level 30+ (DC 41+) for spells like the persistent shapechange. The magic items must be dispelled one at a time and they only stay dispelled for 1d4 rounds. Not very effective I think.

Flaw #4Some questions: Do the balors know that more are coming and what happened to those that came before? Do they cooperate and sacrifice themselves for the common good? Is simply running away to return later an option?


Flaw #5
You didn't include a counter for its summoning ability.That's partly because I haven't looked too closely at the SLAs of the potentially summoned allies yet, but mostly because I expect "more of the same" will get the job done. It's more of an issue for builds without SR/magic immunity, since the blasphemy ability is hard to stop.

Flaw with low-level build- You need a 75% chance to win. He needs two nat 20s to confirm the crit, and then the Balor needs to roll a nat 1. That's what, a .01% chance? Not that I think you were being serious.That 75% rule is new. :smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2007-06-17, 05:51 PM
huh...
Forgot about dominate monster and implosion.

brian c
2007-06-17, 07:45 PM
Regarding swordsage build. I am fairly certain multiple banes don't stack.

Shrug. If they don't, then I replace one of those with a simple +1 enhancement (so the regular enhancement is up to +5), so it's not an effective +7 instead of +8. That's a very minor adjustment, so I'm still confident I could kill a whole bunch of them.

Also, Death Throes is a DC 30 reflex save, and I've got Improved Evasion at +22, so with a roll of 8 or better I take no damage, and with a roll worse than 8 I take only half damage.

Ditto
2007-06-17, 10:54 PM
Assume that the Balor will use the best possible tactics against you it has available, which also assumes it knows your build and tactics (since you know its stats and vulnerabilites, that's only fair).

I wouldn't assume that. It's a Balor that just got dropped out of Hells and told, "Fight time! Go!" He might know you're an elf or a gnome, but he wouldn't necessarily know your class levels. Balor isn't a class, it's a creature - all Balors are exactly like each other and apparently each uses the same tactics as every other member of their race. If it's helpful, we could certainly provide the Balor with the stat block for an advanced Elf, adding the monster HD advencement rules. Now he knows whata 20 HD Elf looks like... swell.

Alveanerle
2007-06-18, 08:55 AM
Regarding swordsage build. I am fairly certain multiple banes don't stack.

I'm also pretty positive i've seen it mentioned by the Sage once, with reasoning being something to the lines that it either is a bane versus the creature, or not. Multiple banes would just broaden the range of baneable targets.

Swooper
2007-06-18, 09:27 AM
I'd say it's high time some of you head over to the PbP forums and give this a shot instead of hanging around here theory-monging :smallbiggrin:

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-18, 10:12 AM
I'm also pretty positive i've seen it mentioned by the Sage once, with reasoning being something to the lines that it either is a bane versus the creature, or not. Multiple banes would just broaden the range of baneable targets.

I believe it was in the June 2007 Dragon's Sage Advice. Seriously. O_o

Citizen Joe
2007-06-18, 11:22 AM
How about this for a situation? You hear about a fell ritual to open a 'permanent' gate to the nine hells. You and your team go there to stop it, but you are too late and the gate has opened. To save the world, you are locked into a room with the gate and instructed to hold them off as long as you can until the rest of the party can shut down the gate. On the down side, neither of you can get out of the room, on the plus side, since it was summoned, it can't summon help. The room is arbitrarily large but finite. The Balors appear at a certain rate and we'll say the gate flashes when it summons one so you know it has arrived.

Or we can assume that its the same Balor every time. You kill it, it poofs back to the abyss and regenerates, coming back through the gate when its ready (i.e. every X minutes). So, it will come through with unholy aura already up but will use up its 1/day abilities pretty quickly.

Iku Rex
2007-06-18, 03:49 PM
My goal: Keep killing balors for days.

Problems:

Vorpal sword
Melee damage
Grapple
Spell-like abilities (including blasphemy, save-or-dies, unholy aura and greater dispel magic)
Summon ability
Death Throes

My solution: A favored soul using Divine Metamagic to make shapechange persistent, then killing the balors using melee buffs and the form of a Huge iron golem.

The iron golem is key because it solves several major problems: The balor's spell-like abilities, the ability damage from unholy aura and the inevitable double natural 20 hits with the vorpal sword. The size, DR, natural armor and enormous strength are just handy fringe benefits.

I haven't finished all the details yet, but here are the basics:

Favored Soul (CDiv) 5/ Church Inquisitor 3 (CDiv) / Sacred Exorcist 6 (CDiv) / Contemplative 6 (CDiv)

Three levels church inquisitor provides prerequisite skills. Five levels sacred exorcist provides consecrate ability and, more importantly, turn undead (at level 1). Six levels of contemplative provides two domains, among them the animal domain for shapechange.

Feats:

Extend Spell (1), Persistent Spell (1)(CArc), Silent Spell (3), Improved Toughness (6)(CWar), Divine Metamagic (9) (CDiv), Divine Spell Power (12) (CDiv), Extra Turning (15), Extra Turning (18)

Divine Spell power is used to pump the caster level. With a Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag), an Orange Ioun Stone, a Bead of Karma and a guaranteed high turning check it can provide enough of a caster level boost to make it impossible for a balor to dispell the key buffs.

The weapon (I'm thinking greatsword) should be merciful. That way the balor won't actually die (and deal 100/50 points of untyped damage to its killer) when it's brought down. The character can kill it off in his own time after healing all previous damage in a shapechange form with fast healing.

A Ring of Freedom of Movement (or the spell cast several times) prevents grapples.

As far as I can tell favored souls get spells once/day and don't have to do anything for this to happen. Food and water can be provided with magic. I couldn't find any specific rules for sleep deprivation (?), but it seems to involve fatigue and that can be handled with a lowly lesser restoration.

AC should be 51 (only hit on natural 20) and the attack bonus as high as possible. Doable.

I think a character like this could go on killing balors almost indefinitely if they don't get too clever. I'll posts some combat stats tomorrow.

If anyone has questions, suggestions or a burning desire to point out a flaw in my plan, go right ahead.

Edit: Oh, as for the other challenge I'll go with a 1st level commoner with Str 18 and a scythe. He's capable of dealing 50+ damage and the balor might roll a natural 1 on its death from massive damage save. :smallwink: I guess I should post the combat stats I promised. It's not exactly a fine-tuned character, but it gets us some numbers to work with.

Base ability scores (32 PB): Str 8, Dex 8, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 17
+5 Cha from levels, +6 Str Divine Power, +6 Dex Gloves, +6 Con Amulet, +2 Wis Ioun Stone, +6 Cha cloak (see equipment, below)

Spells known:

Animal and Protection (?) domains.

9th (4): Shapechange, Miracle, Prismatic Sphere
8th (5): Greater Spell Immunity, Mind Blank
7th (6): Regenerate
6th (6): Heal, Forbiddance
5th (6):
4th (6): Greater Magic Weapon, Air Walk
3rd (6): Magic Vestment, Crown of Protection (PHBII), Create Food and Water
2nd (6): Make Whole, Lesser Restoration
1st (6):
0th (9): Mending

Has Cha 28 - 3+9+4+4= 20 turn undead

14 for persistent spells, 6 for Divine Spell Power

Charisma check is 9 (Cha) + 3 (feat) + 2 (knowledge skill) + 3 (circlet) + 3 (consecrate) + 1 (ioun stone) = + 21, meaning +4 caster level every time

Divine Spell Power buffs (CL 29, CL 33 to dispel)

Persistent Shapechange
Persistent Divine Power
Extended Magic Vestment
Extended Greater Magic Weapon
Extended Energy Immunity (Fire) (CArc) (2 days)
Extended Mind Blank (2 days)
Extended Crown of Protection (PHBII)

Other buffs (CL 25 or less, CL 29 or less to dispel)
Extended Air Walk spells all day.


Equipment:
30000 Orange Ioun Stone (+1 CL)
169400 Cold Iron +9 (speed, bane, holy, merciful) sizing (CArc, errata MIC) Greatsword
64000 Bracers of Armor +8
36000 Amulet of Health +6
5000 Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 AC)
11020 +1 Animated adamantine shield
6000 Ring of Enduring Arcana (CMag)
36000 Cloak of Charisma +6
36000 Gloves of Dexterity +6
4500 Circlet of Persuasion
6000 Robe of the Vagabond (+1 AC and saves) (CCha)
40000 Ring of Freedom of Movement
8000 Incandescent Blue Ioun Stone (+2 Wis)
30000 Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 AB, saves, checks)
22060 Luck Blade
5500 Boots of Striding and Springing
20000 Karma Bead (Strand of Prayer Beads)


529480 Total
230520 Left

Some tomes (Con, Cha) and a bow might be in order. Depends on the rules.

Now for the basics:

Average hit points: 8+13d8+6d6+20 (Improved Toughness) + 20* 7 (Con 24) = 255 HP


AC (Huge Iron Golem form):
10
-2 Size
-2 Dex
+3 Dex (gloves)
+25 natural armor
+8 armor (bracers)
+1 luck (robe)
+1 insight (ioun stone)
+1 deflection (crown of protection spell)
+7 shield (animated shield)
=AC 52

DR 15/adamantine

Attack Bonus:
+20 BAB
-2 Huge
+15 Str
+3 Str (divine power)
+7 enhancement (+5 bane weapon)
+1 (weapon focus)
+1 competence (ioun stone)
= +45/+45/+40/+35/+30 (speed weapon)

Damage:
4d6 (huge greatsword)
+18 Str
+9 Str (x0,5, two-handed)
+7 enhancement (+5 bane)
+2d6 holy
+2d6 bane
+1d6 merciful
=4d6+34+5d6, average 65 damage before crits

If all five attacks hit the balor will most likely be unconscious. It will require luck to take it down with 4 hits. Using Power Attack may be a good idea (lower Con or Cha for Str 13, drop Silent Spell).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-18, 08:46 PM
Limiting the marathon to Balors is to cheesy. Look at comparable monsters Planetar CR16, Pitfiend CR20, Solar CR23 and Titan CR 21 all extremely intelligent monsters that can disguise themselves to look like something else.

Simply throwing in a little twist or two really starts changing things up. The old player knowledge versus PC knowledge.

A balor normally has Int 24 and Wis 24 along with DR 15 / cold iron and good and is part of the reason for it's CR. This combat thread completely nerfs that. Compare that to a wizard, psion or archivist or other class with a primary ability of intelligence. At level 20 with out enhancement that is an intelligence of 23 for most under age 35 humans types and 26 for venerable wizards 70+.

Throw in a little twist like a Hat of Disguise with an amulet of nondetection who goes around disguised as a movanic deva because because after centuries of experience he has learned that most good creatures do not immediately attack angels and those who do are generally evil or neutral. Unless you have an awful lot of experience it certainly looks like a angel but your weapons don't seem to be effecting it.

Look how dangerous this encounter would be if it was a Planetar CR16 Shapedchanged with a Hat of Disguise to look like a Balor or to someone without True seeing prepped thinking they were going to fight a Balor. Cold iron and good weapons wouldn't do squat. Trying to react to that could easily result in a PC kill.

Currently the level 20 fighter is more like a CR 24 - 26 or worse encounter for the balor because the 8 intelligence and wisdom fighter is optimizied against the Intelligence 24 wisdom 24 immortal evil balor. Players would scream if you gave them an encounter like this in game. The fighter has below average intelligence he couldn't have made those plans.

Look how the encounter starts turning if it is a Planetar that looks like a balor or a balor with a lycanthropic template or a variant balor with DR Silver or other DR.

Even limiting the challenge opponent to a NPC commoner with 18 - 25 point buy and 220,000 GP from the DMG. That's not a typical CR19 commoner when they know what their opponent is beforehand and can optimize for the encounter and go shopping at the DMG for specific items which decreases the CR of the encounter many times. You can build a level 20 commoner balor killer with a little work and level 20 gear.

Something a little more realistic would be surviving 5 random challenges from 9 CR 19 - 21 alignment champions comprising 2 - 3 dozen monster types and not limiting the monster to a single individual. Up to eight creatures is a legit CR encounter for a party and would probably allow most PCs to be at least wounded a little in this kind of challenge.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-18, 09:38 PM
A scenario is a scenario.



Originally Posted by Skjaldbakka
Assume that the Balor will use the best possible tactics against you it has available, which also assumes it knows your build and tactics (since you know its stats and vulnerabilites, that's only fair).

I wouldn't assume that. It's a Balor that just got dropped out of Hells and told, "Fight time! Go!" He might know you're an elf or a gnome, but he wouldn't necessarily know your class levels. Balor isn't a class, it's a creature - all Balors are exactly like each other and apparently each uses the same tactics as every other member of their race. If it's helpful, we could certainly provide the Balor with the stat block for an advanced Elf, adding the monster HD advencement rules. Now he knows whata 20 HD Elf looks like... swell.

See above.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-18, 10:31 PM
I thought the construct post was really clever.

A CR 16 Planetar would be more challenging to most PCs than a CR 20 Balor.

After the balor is killed the first time in round one or two with it's 24 intelligence and wisdom it should maintain distance between itself and the PC arriving.

Why would it automatically be summoned right to where the PC wants it every time in a large room?

Hopefully it has a little useful treasure since it is a CR 20 encounter and a CR 20 commoner would have bunches.

Since this is a large space one of it's best weapons is flying and or or teleporting around safely away from the PC with it's Unholy Aura active for 20 rounds probably activated before entering the room since the PC knows when it is coming and it is the only real buff it has and using it's Dominate Monster ability at will till the PC fails a save but most PCs knowing they were going to face a balor would have protection versusu evil or a similar effect in place. Interchanging with Greater Dispel Magic +20 at will against buffs and magic items and using Insanity each round might be an option against some of the fighter types will save negates.

HD wise Blasmephy doesn't do much and neither does power word stun. Neither does a Vorpral sword if you can't ever win initiative to use it. Getting creative with Telekinesis limited to 375# might be an option.

brian c
2007-06-18, 10:37 PM
Limiting the marathon to Balors is to cheesy. Look at comparable monsters Planetar CR16, Pitfiend CR20, Solar CR23 and Titan CR 21 all extremely intelligent monsters that can disguise themselves to look like something else.

Simply throwing in a little twist or two really starts changing things up. The old player knowledge versus PC knowledge.

A balor normally has Int 24 and Wis 24 along with DR 15 / cold iron and good and is part of the reason for it's CR. This combat thread completely nerfs that. Compare that to a wizard, psion or archivist or other class with a primary ability of intelligence. At level 20 with out enhancement that is an intelligence of 23 for most under age 35 humans types and 26 for venerable wizards 70+.

Throw in a little twist like a Hat of Disguise with an amulet of nondetection who goes around disguised as a movanic deva because because after centuries of experience he has learned that most good creatures do not immediately attack angels and those who do are generally evil or neutral. Unless you have an awful lot of experience it certainly looks like a angel but your weapons don't seem to be effecting it.

Look how dangerous this encounter would be if it was a Planetar CR16 Shapedchanged with a Hat of Disguise to look like a Balor or to someone without True seeing prepped thinking they were going to fight a Balor. Cold iron and good weapons wouldn't do squat. Trying to react to that could easily result in a PC kill.

Currently the level 20 fighter is more like a CR 24 - 26 or worse encounter for the balor because the 8 intelligence and wisdom fighter is optimizied against the Intelligence 24 wisdom 24 immortal evil balor. Players would scream if you gave them an encounter like this in game. The fighter has below average intelligence he couldn't have made those plans.

Look how the encounter starts turning if it is a Planetar that looks like a balor or a balor with a lycanthropic template or a variant balor with DR Silver or other DR.

Even limiting the challenge opponent to a NPC commoner with 18 - 25 point buy and 220,000 GP from the DMG. That's not a typical CR19 commoner when they know what their opponent is beforehand and can optimize for the encounter and go shopping at the DMG for specific items which decreases the CR of the encounter many times. You can build a level 20 commoner balor killer with a little work and level 20 gear.

Something a little more realistic would be surviving 5 random challenges from 9 CR 19 - 21 alignment champions comprising 2 - 3 dozen monster types and not limiting the monster to a single individual. Up to eight creatures is a legit CR encounter for a party and would probably allow most PCs to be at least wounded a little in this kind of challenge.

My build definitely hinges on the fact that I know what I'm fighting and what it's weaknesses are; however, that's how it was presented. Against anything non-evil, anything non-chaotic, anything not an evil outsider, and anything that doesn't have DR/cold iron, my tactics are far less than optimal. (The maneuvers I use are pretty kickass against anyone though).

The assumption in this challenge is that the character, despite in my case 8 Int and 8 Wis, has an indefinite amount of time to prepare to fight these Balors, and to find out their weaknesses.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-18, 10:56 PM
The assumption in this challenge is that the character, despite in my case 8 Int and 8 Wis, has an indefinite amount of time to prepare to fight these Balors, and to find out their weaknesses.

I like your build and the other builds. They were effective and as you indicated yours and theirs would be effective against many opponents. Level 20 PCs with their standard DMG treasure of 760,000 GP mostly in magical equipment are pretty awesome and amazing beings.

My issue is the thread challenge premise.

A typical balor is a CR 20 encounter when you run into it not expecting it and specifically loaded for balor and other demons unless you are in the abyss or high level planar campaign and it utilizes it's strengths like that intelligence and wisdom 24 to observe the PCs instead of situationally dumbed down and weakened. Don't forget it was originally designed with PHB PCs utilizing DMG PRCs.

Sticking to core without special builds you normally need a Gate spell and 1,000 XP to call a Balor unless using high level magic items like candles of invocation and miracles or wishes because of their 20+ HD.

Consider how much the encounter changes with the balor as a BBEG targeting a level 20 PC or party with a 24 Int and Wis before augmentation and utilizing it's strenths and a few minor magic items. Attacking the PC(s) in a crowded city disguised as a common mortal and cloaked against nondetection with spell like abilities from a distance. Teleporting or flying away if somehow detected to attack another day so PCs don't know it's a Balor.

This encounter basically nerfs all the strengths the balor has as a CR20 encounter because almost all of it's abilities can be neutralized and intelligence wise it is basically nerfed without equipment and being forced to fight in a single room.

The balor is most effective as a ranged combatant and running into it unexpectedly. Prior to combat Unholy Aura. Round 1 Dominate Monster. IMO it shouldn't move to power word stun in round 2 if dominate monster is ineffective with it's 24 intelligence and wisdom making the save means your PC is very dangerous. Round 3 insanity or telekinesis to incapacitate or repel a dangerous foe. Teleport or fly away with entangleed foe to reestablish range and repeat. A player can read that in the SRD a PC shouldn't know that. Player knowledge versus PC knowledge and even wizards with lots of ranks in the planes should only know generalities not exact specifics other than specific immunities but not the rating cold iron and evil damage reduction sure but not exactly what needs to be be beat other than certain weapons apparently ineffective for most people (which many already know and why changing things a little is such a good idea in games).

Boy do people start arguing about what constitues acceptable magic items for a CR20 Balor or Dragon or other monster to have and use with his genius level intelligence and or wisdom. Standard items for a level 20 NPC is 220,000 GP but a single CR 20 encounter typically averages 80,000 GP (20 -22 K in Gems or PP, more gems and or art objects and 1-4 medium magic items around 10K each and 1-3 Major around 40K each). Those 5 -7 magic items could be a real boost for the balor in normal encounters to augment weaknesses or build on strengths.

This is not a CR 20 encounter it's more like a CR 15 at best with the PC completely forearmed, forewarned and geared accordingly if the Balor can't customize his treasure for use against the PC. The Balor might stand a chance if you thought you were going to fight a planetar or a solar or a titan and it was disguised and able to use some of it's abilities and surprise.

The PC has unlimited time and can customize and optimize his build for one of the lamer CR 20 outsiders with a low intelligence low wisdom fighter. He only has to fight a single balor that is limited to summoning a few allies once a day.

4 CR 16 Planetars are a CR 20 encounter if you happen in to them without building for the encounter.

A Titan is normally a CR 21 encounter and a Solar is normally a 23 encounter but neither would be that high a CR encounter where the PC gets to fully prep beforehand and customize for it but at least they would have a few more options than the balor.

Throw the monsters a little bone. This is page 3 of the thread. Depending on the circumstance a CR19 level 20 commoner NPC limited to using 220,000 GP and just the magic items from the DMG to fully prep against a balor could conceiveably defeat an unprepared typical wandering balor depending on what treasure the balor was encountered with.

After everything is said and done if it's not a challenge for the commoner prepping for the encounter why is it for a PC with better abilities, feats, skills, hit dice, attacks and even threefold+ magic and other gear?

herrhauptmann
2007-06-19, 02:56 PM
This is not a CR 20 encounter it's more like a CR 15 at best with the PC completely forearmed, forewarned and geared accordingly if the Balor can't customize his treasure for use against the PC. The Balor might stand a chance if you thought you were going to fight a planetar or a solar or a titan and it was disguised and able to use some of it's abilities and surprise.


As far as bypassing his damage reduction... I personally advocate adamantine weapons whenever possible. So that covers cold iron vs silver vulnerable monsters.
But to bypass people going hunting for balor, lets give the balor a few levels to bypass that. Not being the best DM, I might be wrong, but wouldn't giving these Balors 5 levels in a class raise their CR from a 15 to a 20? I personally would recommend either sorceror or fighter. And if he gets some feats that he can apply, use them to change around his spell like abilities. Maybe make a SLA into a SU, or change elements from Fire into Cold. (I know they exist, just don't know the requirements)

And you're totally right about preparedness being the deciding factor in these fights. Got to witness one such fight: 4 people, average character level 15, had advance warning about a balor fight. 10 minutes real time, but a day of game time. Totally destroyed the balor in just a few rounds. On the other hand, a party of 5 at 21st can be completely wrecked if the Balor crashes the campsite as they're preparing to make a run on some frost giants.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-19, 02:57 PM
Assume that the Balor will use the best possible tactics against you it has available, which also assumes it knows your build and tactics (since you know its stats and vulnerabilites, that's only fair).

I've repeated this a few times now, and I think it addresses most of above poster's concerns.

brian c
2007-06-19, 03:41 PM
I've repeated this a few times now, and I think it addresses most of above poster's concerns.

Well, since you're the one making the rules since it's your contest, I had one more question: for the Balor marathon, do the Balors come out at some pre-assigned spot, and if so do we know where it is? The ability to "camp a respawn point" as it were is a great advantage for melee builds such as mine.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-19, 07:16 PM
For the purposes of the thread the PC always knows when the Balor arrives in the very large room that's an awful lot just knowing when the trial is commencing.

Balors should be able to do demonic possession since they have 4+ HD & a Charisma 13+

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-20, 12:53 AM
As far as bypassing his damage reduction... I personally advocate adamantine weapons whenever possible. So that covers cold iron vs silver vulnerable monsters.

Hardness != DR Adamantine does jack squat against DR X/Anything except Adamantine.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-20, 08:09 AM
As far as bypassing his damage reduction... I personally advocate adamantine weapons whenever possible. So that covers cold iron vs silver vulnerable monsters.
I think that is 3.0 mentality where each DR type got trumped by a better weapon. In 3.5 the DR's are bypassed by that specific material, and not trumped by better stuff. The Balor's DR is 15/Cold Iron AND good. That means the weapon needs to be BOTH cold iron and good to bypass the DR. Not that some special abilities/spells allow 'good' to be applied to your attacks so that may help. Note also that cold iron is hard to enchant so there's an added cost to make a 'good' cold iron weapon.

brian c
2007-06-20, 09:51 AM
I think that is 3.0 mentality where each DR type got trumped by a better weapon. In 3.5 the DR's are bypassed by that specific material, and not trumped by better stuff. The Balor's DR is 15/Cold Iron AND good. That means the weapon needs to be BOTH cold iron and good to bypass the DR. Not that some special abilities/spells allow 'good' to be applied to your attacks so that may help. Note also that cold iron is hard to enchant so there's an added cost to make a 'good' cold iron weapon.

*grumble grumble* If not for that stupid rule, my build would have had like 42,000 more gold to buy magic items with, so I would have gotten probably a +6 wisdom and some ioun stone. From 8 wis to 14 for a swordsage means +2 AC and +3 will save. Maybe I could have gotten something different.... but no matter, cold iron sucks.

Iku Rex
2007-06-20, 10:13 AM
*grumble grumble* If not for that stupid rule, my build would have had like 42,000 more gold to buy magic items with, ...Hold on, you're not adding 2000 gp for each bonus equivalent are you?

My interpretation, which I think is more reasonable:

The rule is that if you add any "magical enhancements" you have to pay an additional 2000 gp. Your weapons have "magical enhancements" worth 200000 gp. These "magical enhancements" cost "an additional 2000 gp", for a total of 202000.

(Are there any uncomplicated published magical cold iron weapons we could look at?)

And cold iron doubles the normal cost of the weapon, not the +300 masterwork cost. Example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#masterworkColdIronLongsword).

brian c
2007-06-20, 11:05 AM
Hold on, you're not adding 2000 gp for each bonus equivalent are you?

My interpretation, which I think is more reasonable:

The rule is that if you add any "magical enhancements" you have to pay an additional 2000 gp. Your weapons have "magical enhancements" worth 200000 gp. These "magical enhancements" cost "an additional 2000 gp", for a total of 202000.

(Are there any uncomplicated published magical cold iron weapons we could look at?)

And cold iron doubles the normal cost of the weapon, not the +300 masterwork cost. Example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#masterworkColdIronLongsword).

Whoa, I definitely accidentally doubled the masterwork cost, but I thought it was 2,000gp per enhancement. After reading more carefully, it is in fact ony 2,000 gp total, which is much more reasonable. Perhaps I'll go back and find something to do with that extra 36,000gp

herrhauptmann
2007-06-20, 01:28 PM
Hardness != DR Adamantine does jack squat against DR X/Anything except Adamantine.
Really? Nutbuggers!
Coulda sworn that adamantine ignored silver and cold iron DR.

brian c
2007-06-20, 02:34 PM
Really? Nutbuggers!
Coulda sworn that adamantine ignored silver and cold iron DR.

It used to in 3.0, but doesn't anymore in 3.5

Iku Rex
2007-06-20, 03:07 PM
It used to in 3.0, but doesn't anymore in 3.5Not quite. Most 3.0 DR was based on enhancement bonuses. An iron golem had DR 50/+3, a balor had DR 30/+3, a vampire had DR 15/+1 and so on. Once you had a +5 weapon you no longer needed to worry about DR unless it was X/-. A few creatures, like lycanthropes, had material-based (silver) DR, but it could be ignored by any magic weapon regardless of what the weapon was made of.