Fifth Edition Binder Class III

[Submortimer]

Since the old post is getting a little long in the tooth, I'm refreshing it here. There are changes incoming, but I wanted to get this back out there for us to work on and the community to keep looking at.


5E PACT MAGIC
http://i.imgur.com/qpzCf.jpg


Table of Contents:

Foreword
5e Binder
Class Table
Class Features

Binder Fates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20371240&postcount=2)

Sealed Fate
Twisted Fate
Occult Fate
Eldritch Fate

Minor Spirits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20371247&postcount=3)
Additional Materials (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20371258&postcount=4)
New Equipment
New Trinkets (Coming soon!)
New Feats
NPC Stat blocks
Homebrew Vestige Template
FAQ


Appendix: Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938)

FOREWORD
Pact magic has, since it's release, been a favorite of both mine and many others. Much like the Incarnum and Psionics systems that came before it, the Pact Magic system and it's primary practitioner, the Binder, gave us new and exciting options for magic when Vancian casting had gotten dull and stale. It is in this spirit that we present our version of the Binder, updated for 5th edition and ready to take on whichever threats meet his far off gaze.

BINDER
Binders are students of Pact Magic, an ancient and secret lore that allows them to call to entities that live beyond the known planes, in the spaces between the worlds. Through a combination of forgotten magics and complex bargains, they persuade or compel these beings to serve them - though not always without price.

Beyond Reality
A binder learns to cast their mind into the void between the planes, and to search the fractal wilderness there for beings that will answer their call. These beings -called vestiges- are remnants of powerful beings residing in the chaos outside of reality, born from the last echoes of the world's creation, and from energies that leak out of the planes. Pact Magic scholars seek out these vestiges and pass down legends of their origin. They learn of their personalities, abilities and motivations, all of which vary wildly from reasonable and relatable to deeply inscrutable.

A Bargain Sealed
In order to obtain the services of a vestige, a binder must strike a deal with that vestige, and use their magic to make the terms of the agreement totally binding. Knowing this, the vestiges will often seek to outwit the binder, adding loopholes and ambiguity into the terms of the bargain, making every deal a grave risk for the binder.

Class Features
As a binder, you gain the following class features:

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per binder level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per binder level after 1st

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light armor
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: Ritual Implements (described in the section on New Equipment below)
Saving Throws: Charisma, Wisdom
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, History,Persuasion and Religion.

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

(a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) any simple weapon
(a) a component pouch or (b) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar’s pack or (b) a dungeoneer’s pack
Leather armor, a set of ritual implements, and two daggers

Quick Build:
To make a Binder quickly, consider the following suggestions: Charisma should be your highest stat, followed by constitution or dexterity. Strength may also be important for those planning to take the Twisted or Sealed Fate. Lastly, choose the Sage Background.

The Binder


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Vestiges bound
Vestige Level


1st
+2
Soul Binding, Renegotiation
1
1


2nd
+2
Suppress Sign, Minor Spirits
1
1


3rd
+2
Binder's Fate
1
2


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
1
2


5th
+3
Minor Spirits (2)
2
3


6th
+3
Trusted Vestige
2
3


7th
+3
Binder's Fate Feature
2
4


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
2
4


9th
+4
Adamant Mind
2
5


10th
+4
Minor Spirits (3)
3
5


11th
+4

3
6


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
3
6


13th
+5
Binder's Fate Feature
3
7


14th
+5
Minor Spirits (4)
4
7


15th
+5

4
8


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
4
8


17th
+6
Binder's Fate Feature
4
9


18th
+6
Minor Spirits (5)
5
9


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
5
9


20th
+6
Everlasting Pact
5
9



SOUL BINDING
In your studies, you have uncovered the means to pierce the very fabric of the planes and call to what lives beyond. You learn how to contact a vestige and bind it to a magical agreement. By doing so, you allow a vestige to reside in your soul, and adopt it's physical sign on your body. For a list of vestiges and their abilities, see the Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938).

Pact Negotiation. Following a long rest, you may attempt a binding ritual. This process, which takes 1 minute for each vestige you are attempting to bind, requires calling the vestige by name and title, rendering the intended vestige's seal, and potentially other more esoteric acts. During this ritual, the vestige you contact appears as a hazy phantom, hovering over the seal, and slowly becomes more real as the ritual continues on.

At the completion of each ritual, you make a Charisma check against the Vestige's Pact DC. You have made a Good Pact when you succeed ln this check and the vestige inhabits your body and soul, leaves you with a physical Sign of its presence, and grants you it's associated powers and abilities. If you fail this check, you forge a*Poor Pact. You still gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours, but the vestige fully imposes its will on your psyche, influencing you to act in a fashion that the Vestige finds appropriate.

At 1st level you can bind one vestige, and can bind more vestiges at higher levels, as shown in the Vestiges Bound column of the Binder Table. Unless otherwise specified, you can only bind vestiges whose combined level is no greater than your binder level.

Renegotiation. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose to perform a the ritual of binding again to renegotiate any of the bargains you have made earlier in the day. This allows you to expel a bound vestige early and bind another in its place. When you choose to renegotiate your pacts, you can expel as many vestiges as you wish, and bind a number of vestiges whose combined level is no more than half your binder level (rounded up).

Signs and Influence. Each Vestige exhibits its own unique physical Sign and may impose its otherworld Influence on your personality. Physical Signs range from the innocuous (like constantly weeping) to the unmistakable (like growing imposing ram's horns). This Sign, while not always immediately recognizable as the mark of a binder, will likely make you stand out from your peers, and not always in a good way.

By contrast, The vestige's Influence is a remnant of the personality the being had while it existed. Generally, a practiced binder exerts his will over the vestige and binds it without suffering any ill effects; for the new or unskilled, the vestiges find a puppet they can control to their many and capricious whims. Only when you make a Poor Pact does a vestige exert its Influence over you: you gain a Bond, Trait, or Flaw from those listed in the vestige's description, chosen at random. If you fight this Influence, the vestige will abandon you, and you will lose all its powers and abilities until you complete a short or long rest.

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for all spells and powers granted to you by your vestiges, since you command the power of your vestiges though your force of personality. Use your Charisma score whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell granted to you by one of your vestiges.


Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

SUPRESS SIGN
Starting at 2nd level, your control of the vestiges you bind improves. When you make a good pact with a vestige, you may use a bonus action to suppress or display the physical sign of that vestige.

MINOR SPIRITS
Binding a Vestige is the culmination of years of study and practice in both summoning magic and possession. As such, a binder can use the runoff magical energy from his Pact Magic to bind weaker spirits and beings into his service with little to no risk. These creatures serve many uses for the binder, acting as familliars, bodyguards, weapons, and armor.

At 2nd level, you perform a ritual which binds a Minor Spirit to your service, selected from the list below. The spirit manifests itself, hovering around you (though never impeding you). Though it has a visible form, it is not a creature and cannot be targeted or damaged in any way. While that spirit is active, you gain use of any powers or abilities it grants. You may use a bonus action to Dismiss or Summon your Minor Spirit, causing it's visible from to vanish, but you only access it's powers while it is manifested.

You may bind one additional minor spirit your service at 5th level, 10th level, 14th level, and 18th level. You may have one active spirit at a time, and you may use your bonus action to switch between them. At 10th level, you may have two spirits active at once. Any time you gain a level in the Binder class, you may dismiss you bind with any minor spirit you have and select a new minor spirit.

BINDER'S FATE
Starting at 3rd level, your soul begins to show the marks of constant possession by the forces of the far realm and beyond. You must choose a destiny to embrace as part of your practice. Select a Binder Fate from the options available. You gain the first feature of that fate. You gain additional features from your chosen Fate at 7th level, 13th level, and 17th level.

ABILITY SCORE IMPROVEMENT
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores by 1. You can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

TRUSTED VESTIGE
Starting at 6th level, you begin to form a stronger relationship with a particular vestige. This vestige will respond more readily to your summons, and is more likely to obey without attempting to subvert the bargain. Choose one vestige that you have previously summoned and remained bound to for a continuous period of no less than 24 hours. You have advantage on your charisma check when binding with that vestige.

ADAMANT MIND
At 9th level, your experience in sharing your mind with otherworldly entities has taught you how to guard your thoughts from more common creatures, and punish those that dare try. You have advantage on saving throws against all mind-affecting spells and effects. In addition, when you succeed on a save against such an effect or a successful mind-affecting effect on you ends, the creature that used that ability on you takes Psychic damage equal to your binder level + your charisma modifier.

EVERLASTING PACT
When you reach 20th Level, you can form an everlasting pact with a vestige. When you bind a vestige of 2nd level or lower or a Trusted Vestige, it remains bound to you until you choose to expel it, and it does not count against your total levels of vestiges bound. You may only have 1 vestige bound in this fashion at a time.

[Submortimer]

A BINDER'S FATE
There are four Binder Fates Presented in this section: The Sealed, the Twisted, the Occult and the Eldritch.

SEALED FATE
A binder of the with the Sealed Fate forms a true partnership with a specific Vestige. She becomes that vestige's champion, Taking it's seal as her symbol, and actively advances her patron's desires and goals. In return, her patron grants her powers beyond that of other binders, enhancing her ability to fight on it's behalf.

PATRON VESTIGE
At 3rd level, select a 1st or 2nd level vestige which you have bound with a good pact before. That vestige becomes your patron vestige, your sword and your shield against those who might attempt to harm you. This confers on you a number of benefits:

Should you make a poor pact with your patron, you can choose which influence you take.
While bound to your patron vestige, you gain a fighting style from the following list:
Great Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Protection
While not wearing armor, your AC is equal to 13 + your dexterity modifier

Any time you gain a level in the Binder class, you can choose to change your patron vestige; doing so requires a ritual lasting 24 hours. The new patron must be of 2nd level or lower, or be one of your Trusted Vestiges. Following this change, you can bind only with your new patron vestige for a period of 7 days, and your previous patron will not answer you call for a period of 30 days.

BONUS PROFICIENCIES
At 3rd level, You gain proficiency in Martial weapons and shields.

EXTRA ATTACK
At 7th level, while bound to your patron vestige, whenever you take the attack action you may make an additional attack.

PATRON STRIKE
At 13th level, your melee and ranged weapon attacks deal additional psychic damage equal to your charisma modifer.

PATRON'S AEGIS
At 17th level, your patron shields your form from harm, turning lethal blows and denying your death. When you bind to your patron vestige, you gain a pool of temporary HP equal to 5 + your charisma score. Once oer turn, when you strike a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can add a number of temporary HP to this pool equal to half the damage dealt. This pool has a maximum size of twice your charisma score.
These temporary HP are lost upon breaking your bond with your patron vestige, and the pool size resets to 5 + your charisma score when you finish a long rest.


TWISTED FATE
Binders are usually feared and hunted as heretics, or as monsters. As a result of whispered rumors of corruption and heresy, most binders take great pains to keep their craft hidden. Through great practice and great courage do those who take upon themselves the Warped Fate claim unnatural powers of their own. They embrace the monster that grows in their souls with each pact they form.


Bonus Proficiencies
Starting at 3rd Level, you have proficiency in either the Intimidation or Perception skill.

Unnatural Weapon
Starting at 3rd level, you learn to tap into the form-altering abilities of your vestiges and use them to shape your body to your whim. You may grow or shape varying natural weapons from your body, such as horns, fangs, claws, tentacles, etc. Your unarmed strikes damage increases to 1d4, they are considered magical, and you may choose to do bludgoening, piercing, or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes. As well, when you use the Attack action on your turn to make an unarmed strike, you can use a bonus action to make an additional unarmed strike.
At 7th level, your unarmed strike damage increases to 1d6, and at 13th level, it increases to 1d8.

If you are bound to a vestige which augments your unarmed strike in so.e way, you may use the vestige's unarmed damage (if it is higher than your own) and your unarmed strikes gain a magical +1 bonus to attack and damage.

Alter Skin
At 7th Level, you can change the hue and structure of your skin, providing an abnormal benefit. You gain one of the following features of your choice. You can activate and suppress this feature as an action.

Adaptive. You have advantage on all Constitution saving throws against environmental conditions that would cause fatigue (i.e. extreme heat or cold, high air pressure).
Amphibious. You grow gills and fins. You can breathe normally water as well as in normal air, and you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed.
Camouflage. You can shift the color of your skin. You can attempt to hide whenever you are adjacent to a solid surface larger than you with a uniform color or simple pattern (i.e. tall trees, stone walls, a noble house corridor, etc.)

Enhanced Unnatural Attack
At 13th level, you enhance your unarmed strikes with a strange deformity, chosen from the following list:

Corded Muscle. The muscles on your limbs tighten into thick, taut fibers. When you hit a creature with your unarmed strike, you may use your bonus action to automatically shove the creature you hit.
Elasticity. Your limbs are stretchy and swing somewhat loose. Your unarmed strikes gain Reach.
Poison Gland. You grow a poisonous gland inside your chest, and a number of stingers about your body. On a critical hit with your unarmed strike, you deal an additional 1d8 poison damage.

Otherworldly Form
Beginning at 17th Level, you can, as an action, manifest the eldritch beast within you and can take its image. For up to 1 minute, your type becomes Aberration, you become Large sized if you were smaller, gain advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws, and deal an additional 1d4 damage on melee weapon attacks. You also gain one of the following benefits of your choice. Once you have chosen, this benefit cannot be changed. Once you have used this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.

Dire. The damage of your unarmed strike increases to 1d10.
Impervious. When you first gain this feature, choose 3 types of damage. This selection cannot be changed. You have resistance against these types of damage. The damage you selected do not apply to damage from magical weapons.
Wings. You sprout pronounced, membranous wings and gain a fly speed equal to your movement speed.


OCCULT FATE
Vestiges are highly alien, frightening, and volatile beings; binding is, therefore, a rather dangerous business. Binders who follow the Occult Fate seek to stabilize their practice though ritual and study, focusing on the art and skill of binding above all else.

FAVORED VESTIGES
When you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level less than your highest known vestige level. You always make a good pact when you bind these vestiges.

You can select two additional Favored Vestiges at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

EXTRA VESTIGE
At 3rd level, as an action, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges with a Poor Pact without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you cannot renegotiate a new vestige in its place. At 13th level, you always bind this vestige with a Good Pact.

This vestige is expelled after 1 minute. At 7th level, this duration increases: the vestige is expelled after 10 minutes, at 13th level the vestige is expelled when you take a short or long rest, and at 17th level only when you take a long rest. Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest to do so again.

SHARE VESTIGE
Starting at 7th level, As an action you can bind your Extra Vestige to another willing host (that is not a binder) that you can see within 30 feet. This host uses your binder level, spell attack bonus, and vestige save DC for any abilities granted by this vestige. A host that is not a binder always forges a Poor pact with a vestige. If you are already bound to your Extra Vestige, you can transfer the vestige to a willing host or back to yourself as an action.

EMPTY VESSEL
Starting at 13th level, when you bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead bind it to a corpse or skeleton as a 10 minute ritual, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige.
The undead can ignore your mental commands if doing so would prevent it from acting in accordance with both influences of its bound vestige.

The Extra Vestige is expelled when it's duration expires, and the undead host disintegrates. If you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points, the vestige is expelled immediately.

MEDIUM
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you no longer have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

MASTER SUMMONER
By 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you can expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

ELDRITCH FATE
Though Binding is not spellcasting in the usual sense, it is not altogether different. Binders who follow the Eldritch Fate learn to take that skill and apply it to magic of the proper sort. As well, they learn to exploit their connection to the vestiges they bind, which they refer to as Anima, taking the power they give and channeling it directly into magical might.

PACT MAGIC
At 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells:

Cantrips.
You learn two cantrips from the Warlock spell list. You learn an additional cantrip at 8th, 13th, and 19th level.

Spell Slots.You gain two pact magic spells slots, and an additional one at 14th level. Your spell slots are all if the same level, and always of the highest level that you can cast. you regain any expended spell slots when you finish a short rest.

Spells Known. You know a number of spells from your chosen spell list as determined by the Eldritch Fate spells known table. Additionally, you can chose an additional known spell from the warlock or sorcerer spell list when you bind a vestige; you lose knowledge of that spell when that vestige departs. Spells learned in this way must be lower than or equal to the highest level spell you know. Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the warlock spells you know with another spell of your choice from the warlock spell list. The new spell must be of a level lower than or equal to the highest level spell you can cast.


Eldritch Fate Spells Known



Binder Level
Spell Slots
Spell Level
Spells Known


3rd
2
1
2


4th
2
1
3


5th
2
1
3


6th
2
1
4


7th
2
2
4


8th
2
2
5


9th
2
2
5


10th
2
2
6


11th
2
3
6


12th
2
3
7


13th
2
3
7


14th
3
3
8


15th
3
3
8


16th
3
4
9


17th
3
4
9


18th
3
4
10


19th
3
4
10


20th
3
4
11



Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your warlock spells, since you command the power of magic though your force of personality. Use your Charisma score whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell granted to you by one of your vestiges.


Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

ANIMA CASTING
At 3rd level, you learn to exploit your bound vestiges for magical power. As a bonus action, you can convert a vestige you currently have bound into a single spell slot. The spell slot level is equal to the level of the vestige used. Once you have done so, you lose access to that vestige's powers until you finish a long rest, and you cannot renegotiate your pact with it.
Using this ability, you can make and use spell slots of a higher level than you normally have available. Doing so is highly dangerous: when attempting to use a slot of a higher level than you normally gain, you must make a concentration check; failure causes the spell slot to be lost, and you trigger an effect from the Wild Magic table, presented in the sorcerer's class description in the Player's Handbook.

ANIMA SHIELD
At 7th level, you force a bound vestige into being your personal watchdog. While you are bound to a vestige with a good pact, you add your proficiency bonus to your initiative modifier, and you cannot be surprised.

ANIMA MARK
At 13th level, you learn to mix your arcane power with your skills at vestige seal-crafting. During a ritual taking 1 minute, you inscribe a personal mark on a willing creature you can touch. The Mark lasts until dismissed, after which it fades away; it cannot be erased or dispelled by magic short of a Wish. The Mark disappears if you die, or if the creature bearing it dies. Once you mark a creature in this fashion, you can not do so again until you finish a long rest, and you cannot have more than one marked creature at a time.
A marked Creature is bonded to you, much the same way you are bonded to your vestiges. This grants a number of benefits to the bonded creature:

While you are within 1 mile of your bonded creature, you can communicate telepathically with it, even if you do not share a language.
As long as the creature bearing your Mark is on the same plane as you, you know which direction the creature is in. If the creature dies, you are instantly aware of it.
You can choose to cause any any spells you cast with a range of personal to affect your bonded creature as well, and you can cast spells with a range of Touch on your bonded creature as long as they are within 60 feet.
As a reaction, you can cause your mark to surge with power. Doing so allows your bonded creature to re-roll a failed attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. You can not do so again until you finish a short or long rest.


ANIMA MASTERY
At 17th level, you can use your vestige's bonds as a conduit to the Far Plane, gaining powerful insights at a possibly deadly cost. You can sacrifice vestige you have bound: doing so allows you to cast any warlock or sorcerer spell of the same level as the vestige you sacrificed. Sacrificing a vestige causes you to lose the abilities of that vestige, and you cannot renegotiate that pact until you finish a long rest.
You can use this ability to cast spells of a higher level than your pact magic would allow. When using this ability to cast a spell of 5th level or higher, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 11 + the spell level: failure causes you to take 1d10 points of unavoidable and irreducible psychic damage + 1d10 per level of the spell cast.
Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest before you can do so again.

[Submortimer]

Minor Spirits

Listed below are the beings available for binding via the Minor Spirits class feature. If a minor spirit has the ability to make an attack, it adds your proficiency bonus + your charisma modifier to the attack roll, and if it is a weapon attack you may add your charisma modifier to the damage roll.

Imp
This minor demonic spirit is a manifestation of evil thought and malevolence. It manifests as a small, winged, horned humanoid, hence it's name.
While your Imp is active, you gain the following abilities:

Darkvision, 60 foot range
You may cast Hex without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must complete a short or long rest before doing so again.
On your turn, as a bonus action, you may move your imp up to 30 feet away from you towards a creature you can see and have it make a melee weapon attack, dealing 1d6 slashing damage. The imp immediately returns to your side afterwards.

Lantern
This minor divine spirit is a being of pure goodness and divine judgement. It manifests as a fist-sized ball of light, which sheds light as a torch.
While your Lantern is active, you gain the following abilities:

You gain Resistance to Radiant damage
You may cast Bless without a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest rest before you can do so again.
On your turn, you may use your bonus action to have your lantern fire a beam of light as a ranged spell attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. This beam deals 1d8 radiant damage, or 2d8 radiant damage if the target is a demon, devil, or undead.

Will-o'-the-Wisp
A spirit composed of fearful and spiteful energy, the Will-o'-the-Wisp manifests as a hazy ball of blue flame, which sheds light as a torch. While active, you gain the following abilities:

You gain the Dancing Lights cantrip
You can cast Farie Fire without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you may not do so again until you take a short or long rest
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your wisp fling a bolt of ghostly flame at a creature you can see within 60 feet as a ranged spell attack. This bolt deals 1d6 Psychic damage, and the creature is outlined in blue light. The next attack made against this creature gains +1d4 to the attack roll.

Stormling
This minor elemental spirit manifests as a small, crackling ball of electricity, which sheds light as a torch. While active, you gain the following abilities:

You gain the Shocking Grasp cantrip
You gain resistance to Lightning damage
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your Stormling fire a bolt of electricity as a ranged spell attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. This attack deals 1d6 lightning damage, and you gain advantage on the attack roll if the target is wearing metal armor

Torchling
This minor elemental spirit manifests as a small, burning ball of fire or magma, which sheds light as a torch. While active, you gain the following abilities

You gain the Fire Bolt cantrip
You gain resistance to fire damage
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your Torchling fire a bolt of fire as a ranged spell attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. This attack deals 1d8 fire damage.

Gustling
This minor elemental spirit manifests as a ball of swirling, opaque air. While active, you gain the following abilities:

You can cast Fog Cloud without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.
Ranged weapon attacks made against you have disadvantage
As a bonus action on your turn, you may fling a ball of swirling air at a creature you can see within 60 feet. That creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and must succeed on a strength saving throw or be shoved 10 ft. away or knocked prone, your choice

Frostling
This minor elemental spirit manifests as a bundle of spinning, fractal ice shards. Whilet active, you gain access to the following abilities:

You gain the Ray of Frost cantrip
You gain resistance to cold damage
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your Frostling fling a shard of ice at a creature you can see withing 60 feet as a ranged spell attack. If the shard hits, it deals the target 1d6 cold damage, and it explodes, dealing all creatures within 5 feet of the target 1d4 cold damage

Ghost
A ghost is a spirit of regret or woe which haunts a place following its death; the binder gives it a way to escape the confines of its place of death. A ghost manifests as a hazy, translucent floting torso of a humanoid of some sort. While active, a Ghost grants you the following abilities:

You gain the Chill Touch cantrip
You gain advantage on saving throws against fear effects.
As a bonus action on your turn, you may send your ghost to shock a creature you can see within 30 feet. That creature takes 1d6 necrotic damage and must make a Wisdom saving throw; failure causes the target to be frightened of you until the start of your next turn. Regardless of success or failure, a given creature may not be affected by this ability more than once every 24 hours.

Poltergeist
A spirit of warning and mischief, a poltergeist is different from other minor spirits in that it does not manifest in a visible form. Instead, it manifests as constant phenomenon around the binder: flickering candles, frigid temperature drops, object mysteriously floating, etc. While active, a Poltergeist grants the following abilities:

You gain the Mage Hand cantrip
You may cast Unseen Servant without using a spell slot
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your poltergeist fling a small object as a ranged weapon attack against a creature you can see within 60 feet. This attack deals 1d8 piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage, your choice

Guardian Spirit
A guardian spirit is a commonly found minor spirit, usually charged with protecting a tomb or temple from intruders; it manifests as a floating, plate-sized glowing ring surrounding a protective sigil. Once bound to a binder and acitve, it grants the following abilities:

You gain the Blade Ward cantrip
You gain +1 to your AC
You may cast Shield without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again

Hell Hound
Hell Hounds are minor hunting spirits, used by devils and demons to track down those who attempt to escape from a deal with such beings. They manifest as 4 legged, dog-like creatures that seem to breathe flames. While active, you gain the following abilities:

You gain the Guidance cantrip
You can cast Burning hands with your Hell Hound as the point of origin. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.
As a bonus action on your turn, you may move your hound up to 30 feet and have it attempt to bite a creature within 5 feet of it that is hostile towards you. The bite is a melee spell attack, and deals 1d4 piercing damage and 1d4 fire damage. Your hell hound cannot move further than 60 feet from you at any time.

Blade Spirit
Commonly found protecting tombs and temples alongside Guardian Spirits, Blade spirits are beings of anger and malice, shaped into the former of a floating, glowing dagger or sword. While active, you gain the following abilities:

When you use the Attack action to make a melee weapon attack on your turn and you hit your target, you may use a bonus action to deal an additional 1d6 psychic damage to that creature.
You can cast Spiritual Weapon without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again
As a bonus action on your turn, you may transform your blade spirit into any type of melee weapon you are proficient with. This weapon is magical.

Pixie
This tiny, capricious spirit is just as flighty as its namesake. Born from the magic of nature and the woods, a Pixie manifests as a tiny, Butterfly-winged humanoid. While active, you gain the following abilities:

You gain the Minor Illusion cantrip
You can cast Disguise Self without using a spell slot
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your pixie fire a poisonous dart as a ranged spell attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. A creature hit by this dart take 1d10 poison damage and gains the poisoned condition until the start of your next turn.

Cherub
A spirit of grace and divine favor, a cherub manifests as a small, feather-winged humanoid with decidedly pretty or cute features. While active, a Cherub grants the following abilities:

You gain the Sacred Flame cantrip
You may cast Prayer of Healing without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your cherub fire an arrow from it's golden bow as a ranged weapon attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. On a hit, this arrow deals 1d4 piercing damage.

[Submortimer]

Post Reserved for anything needed: FAQs, magic items, feats, monsters, and any expanded tools for a Pact Magic themed campaign. that we can come up with that doesnt directly fall under vestiges. If you make anything to support a Binder or pact magic themed setting/adventure, post it here!

NEW EQUIPMENT:
Tools:
Ritual Implements. (25 GP) All the tools a practitioner needs to summon a vestige are presented here. You add your Proficiency Bonus to the charisma check made when binding with a vestige if you are proficient with these tools.
The set includes colored candles, incense, multi-colored sands and powdered metals, a vial of ink and quill, vials of various ritual components, several pieces of chalk or coal, a ceremonial knife, and an incomplete 100-page codex script or tome containing notes on vestiges and seals.


Below is the vestige template, and a few NPC characters.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OCCULT NPCs

NOTE: The following is best enjoyed with flashcards of vestiges and their abilities, or other form of quick powers/abilities reference. This is untested material modeled after the NPC statblocks in the Monster Manual.
Practitioner
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 11 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points: 9 (2d8)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 10 (+0) CON: 10(+0) INT: 10 (+0) WIS: 11 (+0) CHA: 14 (+2)

Skills: Arcana +2, Relgion +2
Senses: passive Perception 10
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 1/4 (50 XP)

Soul Binding. The Practitioner is a 1st level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 12, +4 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Dahlver-Nar and has the following Features:
Passive: Advantage on saving throws vs. Psychic damage. Natural armor
At will: Share Harm
1/short rest: Maddening Moan

ACTIONS:
Scimitar. Melee weapon attack: +2 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 3 (1d6) Slashing Damage

Practitioners are pact magic servants who dabble into mysterious cults. The Practitioners are trained to use the strengths of others against them, but are secretly mocked among other cultists for their poor attention span when under Dahlver Nar's influence, and are often used as bait for more dangerous tasks.
---------------------------------
OCCULTIST
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 13 (Studded Leather armor)
Hit Points: 27 (5d8 +5)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 12 (+1) CON: 13(+1) INT: 10 (+0) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 16 (+3)

Skills: Arcana +2, Relgion +2, Deception +5
Tools: any 1 type of artisan's tools.
Senses: passive Perception 11
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Soul Binding. The Initiate is a 5th level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 13, +5 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is typically bound to Focalor and Naberius, and would have the following Features:
Passive: Water Breathing, Inestimable Grief(Focalor), Advantage on Intelligence and Charisma skill Checks to deliver, discover or withhold potentially useful information.
At will: Shocking Grasp, Vicious Mockery, Noble Bloodhound, Disguise Self (1 minute casting time), Lightning Strike.
1/ Short Rest: Focalor's Breath
1/Long rest: Command

REACTIONS:
Aura of Sadness

ACTIONS:
Quarterstaff. Melee weapon attack: +2 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 3 (1d6) Slashing Damage.I

------------------------------
OCCULTIST LEADER
Medium/small humanoid (any race), any non-good alignment

Armor Class: 16 (Chain Shirt)
Hit Points: 27 (5d8 +5)
Speed: 30 ft.

STR: 10 (+0) DEX: 14 (+2) CON: 9 (-1) INT: 12 (+1) WIS: 12 (+1) CHA: 17 (+3)
Saving Throws: Wis +4, Cha +6
Skills: Arcana +4, Relgion +4, Deception +6
Senses: passive Perception 11, can see perfectly through darkness and magical darkness
Languages: any two languages (usually common and infernal)
Challenge 6 (2300 XP)

Soul Binding. The Initiate is a 9th level Binder. It's ability for vestige related abilities is Charisma (Save DC 14, +6 to hit with Spell attacks). The Occult Initiate is bound to Tenebrous and Paimon, and has the following Features:
Passive: Advantage on Charisma (performance) to dance, tumble or whirl while holding a finesse weapon, Slay Light feature
At will: Blade Ward Cantrip, Grave Darkness, +1d4 Cold or Necrotic damage with melee weapon attack
Short or Long Rest: Combat Superiority, Dance of Death (See Paimon).

REACTIONS
Blink (See Tenebrous) 1/Long Rest.

ACTIONS:

Multiattack. The Occult Leader can make two rapier attacks as an action.

Rapier. Melee weapon attack: +5 to hit. Reach 5 ft. One Creature. Hit: 7 (1d8+2) Slashing Damage (+ 1d4 Cold or Necrotic damage.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAME
Title
___ Level vestige
DC:
Seal:
Sign:
Manifestation:
Granted Abilities - the section below. at least one of these abilities should be unique to the binder.

PROFICIENCIES
Any necessary proficiencies, including tools, armor, weapons, languages (but not secret languages), avoid skill and save proficiencies at all costs. Those are a rare and difficult commodity, and given the class has so many moving parts and so much that could go wrong, it is best kept that way.

1 Ribbon, and/or advantage on theme-appropriate checks. (Only give skill proficiencies to heavy skill-based vestiges.) this also includes secret languages but is not limited to it. (For those unaware of the term, a ribbon is what the R&D team in WotC call small, fluff-driven features with little if any mechanical impact. They are usually harmless or situational enough not to be considered part of balancing a class, but be careful not to make a decorative feature too powerful.

1 situational feature, ideally offering versatility. Some more powerful vestiges may have a safety-net ability instead (I.e. abilities like the Monk's perfect Self, that help you can rely on to get you through an adventuring day easier, or aid to your general survivability/stamina.)

1 at-will ability or cantrip of the appropriate level. Or 2 for 1st level vestiges.

2 features, (or spells,) that recharge with rest that are level appropriate for the binder's level when the vestige is first attained. One of which can get stronger or provides additional uses at higher levels. Exceptionally high-level vestiges may get an ability that renews when rolling initiative instead.

PACT INFORMATION:

(retelling of the legend in a spoiler labeled "Legend"". if you want to go the extra mile, you can make changes you think would improve upon it's original, published counterpart in the sourcebooks,or write the legend in your own words (like I do!) but Copy/paste also suffices. notable factors when binding with a vestige.)

(A paragraph or so, describing the vestige's likes and dislikes, and other things a Binder might do that gets him rolling with dis/advantage to bind the vestige.)

If you make a poor pact with ___________, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence A)


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence B)


(This section is basically 2 (or sometimes more) ways a vestige could influence the binder when making a poor pact. Having a vestige's influence is essentially taking on a new Trait/ideal/bond/flaw for the day, with the exact same benefits and drawbacks of playing upon it. If you can mimic the formal lingo like in the PHB, it would be even better!
That being said, please avoid adding more flaws to a character for the first few levels of play. Likewise, avoid mixing crunchy mechanics and rules into a vestige's Influence beyond those you would see in a character's Role Playing, just like traits/ideals/etc. The biggest system incentive is Inspiration!)



NAME
Title
___ Level vestige
DC:
Seal:
Sign:
Manifestation:

PROFICIENCIES

(RIBBON/ADVANTAGE)

(SITUATIONAL FEATURE)

(AT-WILL FEATURE OR CANTRIP A)

(AT-WILL FEATURE OR CANTRIP B) [ONLY IF DEEMED NECESSARY]

(REST-POWERED FEATURE A)

(REST-POWERED FEATURE B)

PACT INFORMATION:
(LEGEND IN SPOILER)

(POSSIBILITIES FOR ADVANTAGE AND DISADVANTAGE ON BINDING __________)

If you make a poor pact with ___________, he influences your personality in one of the following ways:


Influence
Description


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence A)


(Personality Trait/Ideal/Bond/Flaw)
(Influence B)

[Scarce]

Since the last thread, I've gotten the chance to playtest the Binder at 8th level using the Occult Fate (the one in this post is not up to date) in an otherwise conventional party. I was ecstatic about some things, and had some misgivings about others. Second playtest is coming up Friday (probably.)

The Good:

I used the Binder cards, which fit nicely into normal card sleeves and were a breeze to set up. I couldn't have played this without those cards; they worked far better than expected. With my save DC written on the front and a few spell cards, I was able to play the class with a single-page character sheet, and a small deck of options.

And I had plenty of options for my character on any given day. I really did feel like I could take any class role I wanted whenever I took a long rest and be reasonably proficient in that role (but not enough to overshadow any of the other party members in that role.)

Turn to turn, the class was not hurting for Action options. On any given turn, I had about as many choices as a wizard might.

Occult Fate was completely fine. Having an extra vestige for a few minutes was not at all too powerful, since my Eatra Vestige selections were rather limited.

The Bad:

Low AC made it very hard to confidently engage in combat, even though I invested heavily in Dexterity. This is largely my fault for insisting on the class having limited medium armor options. I'm going to be changing a few of the melee-focused vestiges to mitigate this problem.

I had practically no useful Bonus Action or Reaction abilities. Each turn, I basically did one thing, and due to excellent saving rolls on the part of the DM, I was basically useless for most of my turns. This was beyond frustrating. To fix this, we should give the base chassis a bonus action option, in addition to changes on the vestiges themselves to optimize for this.

My Action options evaporated very, very quickly over the course of two combats. I was playing two casting vestiges (Xanathar and Primus) to meet a casting niche within the party and my 1/long abilities fluttered out of my grasp for both of the vestiges, leaving me with very little. This was a conscious decision when I wrote Xanathar, but with a lack of other options, I felt extremely constrained.

Combat felt like a place I should completely avoid. Even with d8 hit dice, my chronically low AC and lack of Extra Attack made rushing up to a monster seem like a terrible mistake. Perhaps we should consider giving this class Extra Attack as a base feature, or maybe we should simply include it within all the melee-oriented vestiges.

Way, way too many features involve saving throws. I can remember a stretch in the second combat where I could only take actions, which I used to cast spells or use other features which required saving throws. Round after round, the DM rolled 17s, and I was just left standing there, contributing nothing. It would be interesting if we included a feature that made use out of creatures successfully rolling saves against you, like "Soul Backlash: When one of your vestiges calls for a saving throw on your turn and a creature succeeds against it, you can use your bonus action to deal psychic damage to the creature equal to the vestige's level + your Charisma modifier."

I only got 1 Pact Augmentation and it felt pretty weak. If another binder is using this to get Extra Attack or something equally as useful, the system needs to be reworked to keep them on the same level. I'm thinking that we should do away with subclass-specific augmentations to keep things on mostly the same power level (about the power scale of a racial feature.)

- - -

In my next playtest session, I'll be playing with Paimon and another melee-vestige and try my luck in close-combat before I decide which changes are needed to this branch of vestiges. I'll check back in with changes when that happens.

[Submortimer]

Good notes, all around. I can certainly see the lack of bonus action options, now that I look at it. I'm not sure off hand what would be good to add in, but we're creative fellas, I'm sureally we can come up with something.


About combat, I say this: I think the warped fate and the sealed fate will be just fine in melee. The Eldritch fate gains can trips and spells, so I doubt that guy will be at a loss for things to do.

The occult fate is kinda where it gets lost. We need to look at him like a cleric, and clerics either get boosts to their cantrips, heavy armor, or martial weapons and extra attack.

Suggestions:


Cantrips for everyone. they're still casters, after all, and it could give us the opportunity to make some fun, custom spells. This is also the easiest route for making new Bonus action options.
Medium armor for everyone, heavy for Sealed fate.
More, better augments, and earlier, starting at level 2. This was I thing I found was a problem with the Warmage: in an effort to keep them from being OP, I hamstrung their options.


Frankly, let's do all three. They'll never be stronger than clerics, so our power level is probably spot on.

[WarrentheHero]

I've recently joined a level 13 game as a Tiefling Binder 11/Warlock 2, (Occult Fate, Fiend Patron, will be Pact of Blade next level, then back to Binder levels) and I can post my thoughts as sessions go by; that seems like it would be helpful. I do have a few things I can mention now, though, based on my readings and experiences:

Anti-Magic Fields?
Combat started in an anti-magic field, and my DM and I didn't quite know what to make of that with regard to my Vestiges, as I don't recall any segment that described that interaction. We decided that all of my Vestiges would be suppressed, meaning I'd lose all proficiencies, features, and spells they granted. This left me totally gimped in combat. I know that this is not the fault of the class, but I feel it should be addressed. Did we handle that RAW or RAI? For that matter, can they be dispelled, or have aspects of them be dispelled?

Defensive Options
Similarly to what Scarce mentioned, I felt like I had no viable AC. My build (Karsus, Savnok, Leraje, Focalor; Leraje being a Specialty Vestige) allowed for some medium armor and ranged damage (at-will Magic Missile from Karsus helps), but I still felt really squishy, and without my armor from Savnok I would have very likely bitten the dust. A combo I did pick up on was Aym + Savnok. Aym gives medium armor proficiency, which means Savnok gives you heavy armor proficiency, meaning plate mail. But that's two vestiges to invest in if you're going for a melee build, an it seems like the only way to realistically do melee is to be Sealed Fate.

Damage Options
Being bound to Karsus gave me access to Magic Missile, which was great for what it was. I preferred to use Leraje's bow because of the bonus action attack though. If Extra Attack is implemented, that combo (EA + BA attack) might want to be looked at. 3 Attacks each at +2 dealing 2d8 damage each could be a little bit much at level 5 or 6, when Extra Attack is more common. I neglected to use Focalor's spells because, as Scarce mentioned, it's a once-per-long-rest spell and I didn't want to use it for fear of being not able to sue it in the future.
That's largely what the Vestiges I had bound could offer- I know that with different Vestige combos, you're damage output, damage options, and damage/combat style all change drastically, but I felt pretty balanced in the damage-dealing department.

Skills
The base skill list of the Binder is, in my opinion, pitifully limited. You only have 5 options (only the Cleric goes that low in the PHB), and they're all either INT- or CHA-based skills. Even the aforementioned Cleric gets skills from at least 3 different abilities. As a related side note, my first draft of this character had the Sage background and the Beguiling Influence Invocation and therefore saw a skill proficiency disappear, as there was a total overlap of skills available. I'd say that Insight, Intimidation, and Perception at the least make sense for the base list.

Occult Fate
I didn't get to properly make use of the Occult Fate options since I only had one session, but it does seem interesting. Having a spare Vestige is incredibly handy. Empty Vessel I didn't personally have the option to use, but it seems versatile enough. I can also think of a few ways to abuse it to my ends. Two of the characters in my party are vampires (DM shenanigans) and one of them wronged my character personally. If I can convince someone to bind to Kas, I could potentially force inter-party PvP. That's not a nice thing to do at the table, and it's not exactly something that one could do in most parties, but it's a thought, an interesting take on a feature I haven't been able to really use.

Vestiges
Karsus
I enjoyed Karsus, but he seems just a tiny bit niche. The cantrips and at-will MM is very useful, and I got some use out of Counterspell, but I feel like recognizing seals and breaking/speeding attunement aren't very useful. That said, the rest of him is useful enough that I'm fine with the more niche abilities.

Savnok
This guy is great. He makes you tanky as hell and offers a teleport. And free armor. It should be noted what happens if you doff this armor the proper way, though. Does it disappear if you take it off? If you unbind from Savnok? Can I take it off and sell it, then make more appear and sell that? Other than the vagueness there, he's amazing.

Leraje
She was fun to be bound to, but I question New Moon Arrows. Is it an action/bonus action/anything to imbue arrows? Also can you imbue the arrows granted by Leraje's Quiver? Even if those questions are yes/no, which is worst-case, she's still pretty useful given the right situation.

Focalor
I used this guy the least, but on a whole he's a solid, balanced Vestige.


I put this in a spoiler since there are so many to talk about
If you're Sealed Fate at level 6+, this is a great feature. Sort of boring if you're not. I do have a minor note of confusion though about how you choose the Augmentations. Do you have all of them available at all times (as long as you meet the prereqs?) or do you have to choose one, and then if you bind you can use it? I assume the first, and fear the second.

Armor of the Void
If you aren't wearing armor, you probably aren't trying to be in a position or scenario in which you need armor. Either you're not in combat, or you're on the back line next to/in place of the wizard. If you're anywhere else, you should be in at least light armor, thus negating the Augmentation.

Born of Chaos
Ho-hum. It's not that great, but it's not terrible. Seems like it's one of those 'it's alright, but why take this when I could take ____ instead?'

Elemental Resistance
Not bad. Quite good, in fact. One of the best non-Fate Augs.

Immortal Essence
Not bad. Worse than than the Tough feat, but that's okay. This is one of those "I am keenly aware that I'm about to have a bad day" augmentations.

Otherworldly Sight
Strictly worse than the Warlock's no-req Devil's Sight feature, which allows for both regular and magical darkvision for 120 feet, available at level 2.

Shared Consciousness
Not bad. Another ho-hum like Born of Chaos

Imbued Reality
Arguably the most useful non-Fate Augmentation, this offers both utility and damage. It suffers from the same "long rest syndrome", but I think that's reasonable in this situation. Note that this one is not in alphabetical order like the others.

Patron's Skill
Hands-down the best Augmentation. If you aren't Sealed Fate, you may as well not be a traditional-melee Binder at any point. If you are Sealed Fate, you are taking this.

Patron's Blade
Again a 'meh.' Most campaigns see a magical weapon by now. You get this one level later than Monks do for their unarmed strike, but this is more versatile. It's handy if you don't have any magic weapons though. It's less of a 'meh' and more like 'meh sometimes, but great other times'. I suppose that could be said about the core idea of adaptive versatility that the class exhibits, though.

Monstrous Flurry
This should be clarified some. Considering the traditional interpretation of what you can make unarmed strikes with, does this Aug mean that one could attack with an unnatural weapon, and then attack with each fist, each foot, and a headbutt? I assume if bound to Chupoclops you get that Bite as well. It's probably supposed to be more like one unnatural attack, and then one punch/kick/headbutt, and then one bite, for three attacks total, but it's unclear and if 3.5 and/or players at my table have taught me anything, it's that unclear = abusable.

Hideous Strength
This almost seems to be referencing elements of features that are no longer in play. It requires Alter Skin where it should just require Twisted Fate, Level 7. It also mentions using Unnatural Attack "to make additional unarmed attacks" which seems to me to only work with Extra Attack or with Monstrous Flurry, in which case it should have one of those as its prereqs. Even if that change is made, it's still poor design (imo), as it then requires either multiclassing or a different Aug to be useful.

Mutable Form
Is this once/long rest? If so it's okay. If it's at-will it is astoundingly better than Warlock's 15th-level Master of Myriad Forms Invocation, which is the same thing, but 5 levels later. This also has interesting implications with the 3rd- and 7th-level features, as Alter Self let's you either gain an unarmed strike attack (emulating unnatural weapon) or become amphibious (emulating the amphibious option of Alter Skin). The first one isn't a huge issue for me, but the second one is. If someone's Altered Skin choice is amphibious, it feels like a wasted permanent choice when one could simply take this Aug and do that anyway. This issue is compounded if this Aug is at-will.

Anima Sight
More of a typo than anything; This has a prereq of level 10 but isn't useful until level 13 when you actually are able to have bound creatures.

Poltergeist
Highly flavorful for a Binder who has used their eldritch knowledge to create an aristocratic lifestyle. Much like the spell it grants, however, this is woefully underpowered in nearly every other circumstance. This is more an issue with the spell, which I see to be useless 99% of the time, than an issue with the Augmentation itself.

Occult Bastion
One of those ho-hums I mentioned earlier. More useful than my first instinct gives it credit for, but it suffers from the 'bigger numbers' effect where while it is useful, it doesn't feel like it is, because it isn't flashy.

Hazy Visage
This Aug is astoundingly worse in any given situation than taking the Dodge option in combat. The Dodge action forces attacks against against you to have disadvantage, and you gain advantage on Dex saves. The only benefits this Aug have over the option available to everyone is that you don't have to see attacks and theoretically works while incapacitated. But if you can't see your attacker, then they have advantage against you, making it a normal attack (same thing for incapacitated), and if you're incapacitated, you have a lot more to worry about. And all of this is at the cost of not moving at all on your turn.

Unfettered Step
I like this ability, but I think it comes a little bit too late.


The class is really fun right now, but the moving parts are a bit difficult. That said, that's also what makes it fun. I'll continue posting updates based on my experiences as I play. For the record, this post has a lot of critiques and not much "this is good" in it. That's not meant to at all imply I don't like the class; in fact I clove it. But when I design I always see the "this is bad" more useful than the "this is good." Assume that I don't have a problem with anything I don't call out.

[WarrentheHero]

The occult fate is kinda where it gets lost. We need to look at him like a cleric, and clerics either get boosts to their cantrips, heavy armor, or martial weapons and extra attack.
I'm with you on this, but I feel like Occult occupies an otherwise nonexistent role of someone who is just super good at Binding. What it lacks in raw power it makes up for in unmatched versatility and a pet zombie.



Cantrips for everyone. they're still casters, after all, and it could give us the opportunity to make some fun, custom spells. This is also the easiest route for making new Bonus action options.
Sounds good, but should be treated with caution and may require tweaking/reworking of certain Vestiges. A lot of Vestiges give cantrips already, and adding base class cantrips either lessens the value of the Vestige-cantrips or makes the Binder a cantrips monster.


Medium armor for everyone, heavy for Sealed fate.
Not a terrible idea, but I personally feel that idea of a Binder is that of a scholar. Knowledge is the best weapon, and eldritch knowledge is better than that. Rather than tie medium into the base class, we should consider simply adding medium armor to more Vestiges. Primus and possibly Haagenti seem like nice candidates.
Alternatively/additionally, we could give a few more Unarmored Defense options in the style of Ronove. Leraje, Paimon, and Andromalius seem like nice fits off the top of my head.


More, better augments, and earlier, starting at level 2. This was I thing I found was a problem with the Warmage: in an effort to keep them from being OP, I hamstrung their options.
I like it.

[Scarce]

Cantrips for everyone. they're still casters, after all, and it could give us the opportunity to make some fun, custom spells. This is also the easiest route for making new Bonus action options.
Medium armor for everyone, heavy for Sealed fate.
More, better augments, and earlier, starting at level 2. This was I thing I found was a problem with the Warmage: in an effort to keep them from being OP, I hamstrung their options.



I'm not super sure about cantrips. I mean, it can't hurt, but I don't think that cantrip availability was a real problem.

I don't think that medium armor for everyone is a good idea. I'm going to start giving it much more freely to vestiges and give natural armor to more of them as well to mitigate this problem, but it messes with a lot of the vestige balance if you already have it.

I agree with more and better Augments. Thematically, I don't love them either. What if we renamed the augments and talked about them as simple spirits you can bind permanently, like 0th level vestiges?
EDIT: And I totally think that this is a great place to stick a TON of bonus action and reaction abilities. If this feature can fix that problem, it'll be great for the class.

[Submortimer]

I agree with more and better Augments. Thematically, I don't love them either. What if we renamed the augments and talked about them as simple spirits you can bind permanently, like 0th level vestiges?
EDIT: And I totally think that this is a great place to stick a TON of bonus action and reaction abilities. If this feature can fix that problem, it'll be great for the class.

I 100% love this idea, and I'll get to work it right away. Can trip level "Minor Spirits" that provide a small.bundle of options (2 or 3).

[Submortimer]

My first rough idea for Genus Loci is up, let me know what you think.

[WarrentheHero]

So I know it's not complete, but I am curious as to your plans for what's to come.
For example, is it intended that you could get an Imp as a familiar? Would this be as the Find Familiar spell? Or only somewhat similar? I assume the Guardian and Blade Spirits work somewhat differently and I'm interested to see where that goes.


Also, do you think we should give the Genus Loci more specific names and identities? The moment I read about the idea I immediately thought of introducing "Yog, the Apocalypse Caltrop" from the 'Most Paranoia-Inducing Dungeon' thread. We could do that for every idea listed.
"Dergux, the Imp that Howls"
"Teryb-Yah, the Light that Looms"
"Gary, the Thunderbringer"
Stuff like that. If they're supposed to be like mini-Vestiges, we should give them personalities of their own, though not as fleshed-out backstories as full Vestiges.

[Scarce]

So I know it's not complete, but I am curious as to your plans for what's to come.
For example, is it intended that you could get an Imp as a familiar? Would this be as the Find Familiar spell? Or only somewhat similar? I assume the Guardian and Blade Spirits work somewhat differently and I'm interested to see where that goes.
I'm sure these features are going to be a combination of bonus action and reaction choices with a smattering of constant defensive buffs, but there's a lot to still be decided. I'll post some suggestions soon.


Also, do you think we should give the Genus Loci more specific names and identities?
Honestly, I'm a fan of the simpler naming system (though I don't know if Genus Loci really fits the groove of the class. I was thinking Soul Fragments, myself.) Keeping it on a non-personal basis keeps the player focused on the main vestiges, and keeps things simple.

[Scarce]

My first rough idea for Genus Loci is up, let me know what you think.
Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of having another choice to make every day. I would make the zeroth level vestiges like selecting a cantrip or an invocation, generally a one-time decision, but give them a bonus action activation or similar. Tonight or tomorrow, I'll post a draft of a feature.

We also really, really need to rewrite the Soul Binding and Renegotiation. Do you know they don't even mention your bonus for binding checks? I'll try my hand at a rewrite of that for clarity and (hopefully) brevity.
EDIT: I see now that this was rewritten, but I'd still like a shot of rewriting this feature myself. I feel like its missing something in its organization.

[Submortimer]

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of having another choice to make every day. I would make the zeroth level vestiges like selecting a cantrip or an invocation, generally a one-time decision, but give them a bonus action activation or similar. Tonight or tomorrow, I'll post a draft of a feature. We also really, really need to rewrite the Soul Binding and Renegotiation. Do you know they don't even mention your bonus for binding checks? I'll try my hand at a rewrite of that for clarity and (hopefully) brevity.

So, here's the way binding works: it's a charisma check. You don't add anything other than your charisma bonus to that check. If you use Ritual Implements, you add your proficiency bonus to that check.

Here's how I expect binding and renegotiation to work: you can bind 2 vestiges, and 6 levels of vestiges. You bind two 1st level vestiges, which takes up 2 of your vestige levels. When you renegotiate, you expel those two vestiges, and bind to a 1st and a 2nd level vestige. That takes up another 3 of your vestige levels, leaving you with one for later.
Maybe instead of "max vestige levels" we can use "binding points" to make the wording easier to read.

Let me put a little more work into Genus Loci (which, for your informations sake, is a Latin term for a Local Guardian Spirit) before you put the full ixnay on it. I really think you'll like the idea that I'm going for.

For the other question, these are not going to be actual familiars. An "imp" as a Genus Loci will grant specific abilities, not fly around and attack the enemies.

[Scarce]

So, here's the way binding works: it's a charisma check. You don't add anything other than your charisma bonus to that check. If you use Ritual Implements, you add your proficiency bonus to that check.

I suppose this works, but I think it needs a different organization to make it clearer. Plus, I actually found in playtesting that not worrying about which vestiges you know was pretty liberating and made the class a whole lot more fun, with very little change to power (since after all, you can't bind that many at one time.)


Here's how I expect binding and renegotiation to work: you can bind 2 vestiges, and 6 levels of vestiges. You bind two 1st level vestiges, which takes up 2 of your vestige levels. When you renegotiate, you expel those two vestiges, and bind to a 1st and a 2nd level vestige. That takes up another 3 of your vestige levels, leaving you with one for later.
Maybe instead of "max vestige levels" we can use "binding points" to make the wording easier to read.

I have very few problems with renegotiation, actually. The biggest thing is that is should be a sub-point under Pact Binding, rather than a feature of its own. Also, disadvantage on your next binding check against that vestige doesn't really work, firstly, because it's crazy hard to keep track of, and secondly, because you don't want to punish players for using a core part of the class.


Let me put a little more work into Genus Loci (which, for your informations sake, is a Latin term for a Local Guardian Spirit) before you put the full ixnay on it. I really think you'll like the idea that I'm going for.
Oh, I'm looking forward to seeing the direction you take it, I'm just not a huge fan of the name. I think the obscure latin conflicts with the class aesthetic. (Itty bitty side note: the latin spirit is a genius loci, as in super-genius, not genus as in genus-species.) I'll hold off on writing anything until I see where you take it.

Still, I'm going to be hesitant about more long-rest choices for this class in general. For just the vestiges, it takes me a long, long time to decide on what I want to go with, simply because there's so many choices and combinations. I would hate to compound that.

[WarrentheHero]

Still, I'm going to be hesitant about more long-rest choices for this class in general. For just the vestiges, it takes me a long, long time to decide on what I want to go with, simply because there's so many choices and combinations. I would hate to compound that.
Keep in mind that the Genius/Genus Loci (I think the name fits) are replacing Augmented Pacts, so the number of choices per Long Rest are still about the same.

I also was expecting a more Cantrip-like permanent selection, but I'll withhold judgement and doubt until the feature getd shaped a little more.

[Scarce]

Okay, full-disclosure, I skimmed the Soul Binding feature when you reposted this because didn't see any of the changes at a glance. Rest assured, I've read it a little more closely, and there's a few things I take issue with. Also, new organization, because it needed subheadings and a link to the Codex.

Levels Bound: You changed the total levels of vestiges bound to binder level + Charisma modifier, from just binder level. Now, I like the idea of adding Charisma from a thematic perspective, but it throws a wrench in the way that most of the vestiges are designed. I wrote all of them from the understanding that a binder that has just gained access to a new level of vestiges can only bind 1 vestige of that level and 1 vestige of the previous level of they want to meet their binder levels. In my version, I reverted this, because there's no way I'm rewriting and rethinking the entire codex.

I also don't agree that vestiges renegotiated should count against this number. It seems to imply that you should leave vestiges unbound so you can switch out later, and keep a running tally of how many levels of vestiges you have already bound. This class does not need that. It goes back to 'don't punish players for using the class features'.

In my version, this is a number of levels that you can have at any one time, not all day. Importantly, this means you don't have to keep track of it all day.

Vestiges Known: I was actually in favor of having a hard-and-fast vestiges known column from the start, but I learned in playtesting that this would have killed the core engagement of the class, which is being able to choose from a big list what role you wanted to play on a given day. This is completely cut in my version.


In your studies, you have uncovered the means to pierce the very fabric of the planes and call to what lives beyond. You learn how to contact a vestige and bind it to a magical agreement. By doing so, you allow a vestige to reside in your soul, and adopt it's physical sign on your body. For a list of vestiges and their abilities, see the Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938).

Pact Negotiation. Following a long rest, you may attempt a binding ritual. This process, which takes 1 minute for each vestige you are attempting to bind, requires calling the vestige by name and title, rendering the intended vestige's seal, and potentially other more esoteric acts. During this ritual, the vestige you contact appears as a hazy phantom, hovering over the seal, and slowly becomes more real as the ritual continues on.

At the completion of each ritual, you make a Charisma check against the Vestige's Pact DC. You have made a Good Pact when you succeed ln this check and the vestige inhabits your body and soul, leaves you with a physical Sign of its presence, and grants you it's associated powers and abilities. If you fail this check, you forge a*Poor Pact. You still gain the powers and abilities granted by the vestige for 24 hours, but the vestige fully imposes its will on your psyche, influencing you to act in a fashion that the Vestige finds appropriate.

At 1st level you can bind one vestige, and can bind more vestiges at higher levels, as shown in the Vestiges Bound column of the Binder Table. Unless otherwise specified, you can only bind vestiges whose combined level is no greater than your binder level.

Renegotiation. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose to perform a the ritual of binding again to renegotiate any of the bargains you have made earlier in the day. This allows you to expel a bound vestige early and bind another in its place. When you choose to renegotiate your pacts, you can expel as many vestiges as you wish, and bind a number of vestiges whose combined level is no more than half your binder level (rounded up).

Signs and Influence. Each Vestige exhibits its own unique physical Sign and may impose its otherworld Influence on your personality. Physical Signs range from the innocuous (like constantly weeping) to the unmistakable (like growing imposing ram's horns). This Sign, while not always immediately recognizable as the mark of a binder, will likely make you stand out from your peers, and not always in a good way.

By contrast, The vestige's Influence is a remnant of the personality the being had while it existed. Generally, a practiced binder exerts his will over the vestige and binds it without suffering any ill effects; for the new or unskilled, the vestiges find a puppet they can control to their many and capricious whims. Only when you make a Poor Pact does a vestige exert its Influence over you. If you fight this Influence, the vestige will abandon you, and you will lose all its powers and abilities until you complete a short or long rest.

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for all spells and powers granted to you by your vestiges, since you command the power of your vestiges though your force of personality. Use your Charisma score whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a spell granted to you by one of your vestiges.


Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Sidebar: Nature of Vestiges
Though the origin of vestiges is enigmatic, their interaction with the world is less so. Binders gain powers offered by vestiges through the Weave, and thus vestige abilities are susceptible to dispelling, antimagic fields, and similar effects. The vestige's Physical Sign and Influence, however, are immune to these effects, are they originate from a deeper, unknown wellspring of arcana.

[Prince Zahn]

How come nobody told me you brought the thread is back?!? :O

I swear, if I didn't stumble upon this by chance. . .

Onward to business, Ja?

-I am fully on board with the idea of 0th level Bonus Action/reaction spirits, instead of pact Augmentations. not being fluent in Latin I was somewhat lost when I saw Genus Loci in the class feature table. I think Scarce's idea of calling it Soul Fragments or something would make it a little more relatable. At least to myself.:smallsmile:, I am still not quite sure what all the monster names are for under Loci, mind explaining it to me?
-I think in general, the subclasses in the class are out of date, I was honestly hoping you guys would update them with the latest notes. I know Because my notes are still there in spoilers and little red letters.:smalltongue: Sorry about that, Mortimer. It must've been a lot of working cleaning up after me.:smallredface:
On New Moon Arrows. I reckon at the time I wrote it, I didn't think it should take any action, it's not something you'll be doing again. If it has to be something, I'd imagine it's a bonus action. The moon arrows are intended to give leraje just a tiny bit of flexibility from her original role. now she is not just for archery, she is also good for fighting lycanthropes and other shapeshifters. :3

I'll say more if I think of anything. It's good to have it back!:smallbiggrin:

[Submortimer]

*snip*

Feedback, huzzah!

I agree with most of your points, and I dig the rewrite. Limiting renegotiation to once/long rest is the right choice, and limiting the total vestiges bound to half your level (rounded up) is also the right choice. Both things handle the issue that I was struggling with before, which is that a standard binder should not be able to renegotiate for his full amount of vestiges.

As to the vestiges known...well, do we want this guy to be more like a cleric or more like a wizard?

Cleric - he knows all the vestiges of his level
Wizard - he learns a vestige of his level when he levels, but learns new vestiges through study and adventuring, and keeps them all in a big book

Thematically, I like the wizard option more. I suggested a higher difficulty on the arcana DCs because there aren't that many vestiges to discover, especially if you automatically gain one vestige per new level of vestige known.

On 0 level vestigies...I hate the name Soul Fragments. My concept is that the binder is adept at summoning and controlling. Vestiges, so normal creatures are a snap. I'm fine with calling them Minor Spirits instead of Genius Loci, but not soul fragments. I'm also taking your suggestions into account with those.

Quick point: thematically, a vestige shouldn't have any effect on a binders bound minor spirits...what should the punishment be for ignoring your vestiges influence, now that Pact Augmentation isn't a thing?

[Submortimer]

*snip*

Don't worry, Zahn, changes are incoming for the subclasses. I got all the raw code you sent me posted, just to get it up there, and am editing and making the changes the posts needed post by post.

[Prince Zahn]

Don't worry, Zahn, changes are incoming for the subclasses. I got all the raw code you sent me posted, just to get it up there, and am editing and making the changes the posts needed post by post.

Awesomesauce. :smallwink: again sorry for leaving such a mess in my wake.
Tonight I'm going to link the new thread to my sig. :smallsmile:

[Scarce]

As to the vestiges known...well, do we want this guy to be more like a cleric or more like a wizard?

Cleric - he knows all the vestiges of his level
Wizard - he learns a vestige of his level when he levels, but learns new vestiges through study and adventuring, and keeps them all in a big book

Thematically, I like the idea of a wizard more, but the class felt way more like a cleric in playtesting, basically because of how many / the type of options available to you.

Bottom line: it's important that this class be fun, and it was a blast being able to select my role for a given day. I felt like I could play alongside any member of the party on their terms, but not overshadow them. If we limit the number of vestiges you know, it really would cut into that awesome factor, and make the class a whole lot weaker.


Quick point: thematically, a vestige shouldn't have any effect on a binders bound minor spirits...what should the punishment be for ignoring your vestiges influence, now that Pact Augmentation isn't a thing?
In my version, the vestige just takes off until you complete a short rest.


On 0 level vestigies...I hate the name Soul Fragments Fair enough haha. To each his own

[WarrentheHero]

I used the Binder cards, which fit nicely into normal card sleeves and were a breeze to set up. I couldn't have played this without those cards; they worked far better than expected. With my save DC written on the front and a few spell cards, I was able to play the class with a single-page character sheet, and a small deck of options.
What/where are these cards? They seem very useful but I'm not sure it's within my power to sift through all the pages of the old threads to find them, if they are indeed there.

[Scarce]

What/where are these cards? They seem very useful but I'm not sure it's within my power to sift through all the pages of the old threads to find them, if they are indeed there.
I just put a link to them on the Vestige Codex (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471443-Scarce-s-Vestige-Codex-(5e-Binder)&p=20168938) page. As I update the codex, which I have been doing recently, I'll update the cards PDF as well.

[Submortimer]

The first draft of the Minor Spirits are up. Tell me what you think!

For clarification:

You bind a minor spirit at level 2. The spirit is bound to you all the time, but you can dismiss or summon it as a bonus action. At level 5 (and afterward) you bind an additional spirit. Until you hit level 10, you can only have 1 spirit active at a time; after level 10, you can have two at a time. As a bonus action, you can swap between your minor spirits.

No more choices at the beginning of the day!

[Scarce]

My skepticism was a sin. Amazing, amazing stuff, Submortimer.

Ready for the nitpicks?
A few of the attack-roll abilities are clearly stronger than some others:
Will-o'-the-Wisp granting advantage for a bonus action is probably too powerful
Gustling knocking someone prone is an obvious choice (it's free advantage for about a round + reduced movement speed)
Ghost imposing the frightened status effect seems powerful to me. After all, this basically locks a baddie out of combat for a few rounds for free. One round and once/24 hours seems much more cantrip-y to me.

Other minor gripes:
Gustling: Levitate all day for free?
Blade Spirit: The inclusion of the sword burst cantrip means we can't play this class with just a Player's Handbook, which is a little unfortunate. (EDIT: Now that Shax and Eurynome are changed, no vestiges use outside-PHB material.)

Also, what say you that we cut the Soul Guardian feature and give Ghost advantage on saving throws against being frightened instead of resistance to necrotic damage?

[Submortimer]

1. I don't particularly think that Gustling is any more powerful than Shield Master, with the exception that you can do it at range.

2. Warlocks can get levitate at will as an invocation, but it does require 9th level first. I could potentially level gate some of the spirits.

3. I'll reduce the fear duration.

4. Swapped out Sword Burst for True Strike. I don't like it, cause true strike is an awful cantrip, but it's the only thing that thematically fits.

[JNAProductions]

You could just make a modified True Strike.

Bonus action to cast, adds +1 to hit per cantrip tier on your next attack. (So +1 at 1, +2 at 5, etc.)

Call it Guided Strike.

[Scarce]

You could just make a modified True Strike.

Bonus action to cast, adds +1 to hit per cantrip tier on your next attack. (So +1 at 1, +2 at 5, etc.)

Call it Guided Strike.

A simpler modification might be to allow the normal True Strike to be cast bonus action once/long or once/short rest.

[Submortimer]

A simpler modification might be to allow the normal True Strike to be cast bonus action once/long or once/short rest.

It already has a 1/rest ability in spiritual weapon.

I put in a temporary fix: granting a fighting style (twf, gwf, or duelig), but I'm not sure I like that either. Maybe allowing a bonus action attack with any melee weapon you're wielding?

Also, changes to the subclasses have been made. I don't remember what we did to the Empty Vessel ability. Changes are as follows:

Sealed Fate now gains extra attack at level 7 (it's later than usual, but the only place I could fit it in)
Occult Fate now gains all three of Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft.
Occult Fate can bind one additional Minor Spirit.
Occult Fates 17th level ability allows them to renegotiate an additional time per day.
Twisted Fate's unnatural weapons ability has been re-written to fit more with 5e design (and is similar to the Warshaper's ability)
Twisted Fate's 17th level ability changed to match new 3rd level ability
Most references to the Sorcerer spell list in Eldritch fate changed to Warlock
Anima casting ability simplified.


To add to that, the Pixie and the Cherub Minor Spirits are up as well.

[WarrentheHero]

I think the minor Spirits offer an inherent strength over all of the other classes.
Because most of them offer you a cantrip and a bonus-action damage source, your ability to deal damage at low levels is tremendous. For example, the Torchling offers you 2d10 per round, and the Frostling gives you 2d8+Xd4, and a slow, per round.

And then there's the Blade Spirit, its own host of strong. I look at that and I see 7 levels of multiclass for free.


A one-level dip in Fighter for fighting style
A three-level dip into Cleric for Spiritual Weapon. Admittedly this is once/day
A three-level dip into Warlock for Pact of Blade.


I do like the idea, definitely. But I'm concerned that the Spirits are each too powerful, and Blade Spirit in particular stands out to me as stronger than its brethren.

One possible fix is to allow them to cast their granted cantrips as a bonus action. This means they can still do other things such as spellcast, attack, etc, but it lessens their guaranteed damage-per-round.
Another thought is to remove the damage as a bonus action and change that to some other bonus action thing. For example, Torchling could give you something similar to a lesser version of Aym's Golden Halo wherein you're wreathed in flames and melee attackers take some small amount of fire damage (d4? Cha mod?).
It should be noted that not all Spirits have this problem. Poltergeist, Will-o'-the-Wisp, Lantern, and Imp stand out in my mind as examples, mainly because they don't have damage cantrips, and so their abilities don't let you just sit in the background and cast spells at things.

I don't have any real thoughts on fixes to Blade Spirit yet, though. One thing that immediately comes to mind is the need to drop the weapon-shifting, as it steps on Warlock's toes and does it a level early. Perhaps keep the shifting property, but make so I can only shift to weapons you are proficient in, and remove the Psychic damage? This way its baseline is not all that great, but it allows you to combo well with certain Vestiges that grant you proficiencies (Andras and Haagenti come to mind). I feel it would still be on the strong side, but it's a step. As for the Fighting Style feature, as I said earlier it's somewhat like a multiclass for free (I don't know anyone who multiclass Fighter because they want Second Wind). Not only that, it can become irrelevant based on what you choose and who your Vestiges are. For example, if you choose GWF, and then decide to bind to Haagenti very often, either the Spirit choice was wasted, or Haagenti isbless powerful because she basically grants one less benefit.

One final question: cab these Spirits be attacked? Some things such as a Lantern or a Poltergeist I can understand not being targrs of attacks, but if I'm an Orc and I saw an Imp run up at me, scratch me, and run back, I'd want an opportunity attack, as well as to actually attack the thing. Same can be said for Hell Hound, Pixie, Cherub, All of the -Lings, and any other ones that look like critters. And if they can't be attacked, what happens if they "get hit"? Does the Blade pass through them? Are they unaffected by that fireball?

Overall I like the look and feel of this feature, but it's definitely in overdrive right now.

[Submortimer]

I think the minor Spirits offer an inherent strength over all of the other classes.
Because most of them offer you a cantrip and a bonus-action damage source, your ability to deal damage at low levels is tremendous. For example, the Torchling offers you 2d10 per round, and the Frostling gives you 2d8+Xd4, and a slow, per round.

And then there's the Blade Spirit, its own host of strong. I look at that and I see 7 levels of multiclass for free.


A one-level dip in Fighter for fighting style
A three-level dip into Cleric for Spiritual Weapon. Admittedly this is once/day
A three-level dip into Warlock for Pact of Blade.


I do like the idea, definitely. But I'm concerned that the Spirits are each too powerful, and Blade Spirit in particular stands out to me as stronger than its brethren.

One possible fix is to allow them to cast their granted cantrips as a bonus action. This means they can still do other things such as spellcast, attack, etc, but it lessens their guaranteed damage-per-round.
Another thought is to remove the damage as a bonus action and change that to some other bonus action thing. For example, Torchling could give you something similar to a lesser version of Aym's Golden Halo wherein you're wreathed in flames and melee attackers take some small amount of fire damage (d4? Cha mod?).
It should be noted that not all Spirits have this problem. Poltergeist, Will-o'-the-Wisp, Lantern, and Imp stand out in my mind as examples, mainly because they don't have damage cantrips, and so their abilities don't let you just sit in the background and cast spells at things.

I don't have any real thoughts on fixes to Blade Spirit yet, though. One thing that immediately comes to mind is the need to drop the weapon-shifting, as it steps on Warlock's toes and does it a level early. Perhaps keep the shifting property, but make so I can only shift to weapons you are proficient in, and remove the Psychic damage? This way its baseline is not all that great, but it allows you to combo well with certain Vestiges that grant you proficiencies (Andras and Haagenti come to mind). I feel it would still be on the strong side, but it's a step. As for the Fighting Style feature, as I said earlier it's somewhat like a multiclass for free (I don't know anyone who multiclass Fighter because they want Second Wind). Not only that, it can become irrelevant based on what you choose and who your Vestiges are. For example, if you choose GWF, and then decide to bind to Haagenti very often, either the Spirit choice was wasted, or Haagenti isbless powerful because she basically grants one less benefit.

One final question: cab these Spirits be attacked? Some things such as a Lantern or a Poltergeist I can understand not being targrs of attacks, but if I'm an Orc and I saw an Imp run up at me, scratch me, and run back, I'd want an opportunity attack, as well as to actually attack the thing. Same can be said for Hell Hound, Pixie, Cherub, All of the -Lings, and any other ones that look like critters. And if they can't be attacked, what happens if they "get hit"? Does the Blade pass through them? Are they unaffected by that fireball?

Overall I like the look and feel of this feature, but it's definitely in overdrive right now.

To answer your question, no, they cannot be damaged or targeted, as is mentioned in the actual class feature description. They are, for all intents and purposes, as substantial as a flaming sphere.

I totally hear your concern about Blade spirit. That's not the final form at all, just a placeholder for now. That's one of the minor spirits that I'm considering level gating (to level 5) to minimize dip abuse, along with Gustling, pixie, and ghost.

I'll admit, it is a hard swing in the other direction. Current playtesting has shown a decided lack in DPR for binders with not as much to make up for it, and almost no bonus action options. I had thought that I could drop the damage of all the bonus action options, but it hasn't seen much in the way of number crunching yet.

Edit: made a few edits to the Minor Spirits. Torchling is still the biggest damage, but the average is now similar to EB + AB (10 vs. 8.5 at level 2, 15.5 vs 19 at level 5). Blade spirit meshes better with Sealed Fate, as was the intent, and has a bonus action damage option that is in line with Polearm Master. Added level gate, and removed bonus psychic damage.

[Scarce]

Look, I want to keep the discussion on properly balancing the Minor Spirits, but I want to point out that some of the subclasses you are modifying are very early versions. I highly recommend you roll-back Occult Fate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19913446&postcount=388) to this version before you adapt it. Same with Twisted Fate, which is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19939824&postcount=413).

Back to the Minor Spirits:

I think the feature would work better if it wasn't level-gated. After all, once you get to 5th level, it feels like your'e making a sub-optimal decision when you bind something that isn't Prerequisite 5th level, which limits the amount of choice a player feels like they have. My goal would be to get them to the same basic level.

What is blade spirit just added+1d4 to your melee damage as a bonus action? (Also, I'm fine with it's transformation, but it would make sense of it could only form melee weapons you are proficient with.)

Poltergeist should deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, as appropriate to the item thrown. Without specifying this, it allows you to throw a decorative painting for slashing damage.

You didn't address Will-o-the-wisp granting advantage. I would suggest that the next attack roll against gains a +1d4 bonus.

If you wanted to drop level gating, Gustling could get Fog Cloud (maybe 1/short) instead of levitate, Pixie could deal 1d4 poison and disguise self 1/short, and Cherub can heal a fixed 10 hit points as a bonus action instead of giving Prayer of Healing.

[Prince Zahn]

It just occurred to me that the Binder thus far gets a lot of resistances. With minor spirits factored in, a fifth level binder might choose to bind with Aym for fire resistance, and with Shax for lightning resistance, and take cold resistance from a frostling, and have his Lantern on standby for any situation where radiant damage might be used against you. Later level vestiges offer resistances to those energies, too (sans radiant) as well as poison and thunder, spell damage, necrotic damage absorption, and resistance to P/B/S damage from nonmagical weapons. Twisted Fate can also grant an immunityresistance to 3 different kinds of damage.
It might be something to look into, because it sounds like a lot of resistances to me. :smalleek:

[Scarce]

It just occurred to me that the Binder thus far gets a lot of resistances. With minor spirits factored in, a fifth level binder might choose to bind with Aym for fire resistance, and with Shax for lightning resistance, and take cold resistance from a frostling, and have his Lantern on standby for any situation where radiant damage might be used against you. Later level vestiges offer resistances to those energies, too (sans radiant) as well as poison and thunder, spell damage, necrotic damage absorption, and resistance to P/B/S damage from nonmagical weapons. Twisted Fate can also grant an immunityresistance to 3 different kinds of damage.
It might be something to look into, because it sounds like a lot of resistances to me. :smalleek:

You might be right, with the recent inclusion of Minor Spirits at least. (Though I suspect it might only be a thing to worry about for high-level design.) It might pay to swap some of the spirit resistances with abilities similar to those granted by races, and to trade Twisted Fate's Impervious for something else.

[Prince Zahn]

You might be right, with the recent inclusion of Minor Spirits at least. (Though I suspect it might only be a thing to worry about for high-level design.) It might pay to swap some of the spirit resistances with abilities similar to those granted by races, and to trade Twisted Fate's Impervious for something else.

On the contrary. Radiant damage again notwithstanding, the resistances gained by minor spirits are given by vestiges as well (eventually, but several in packages), by level 10 you could have resistance to 5 different energies (maybe more) at once and have another minor spirit for a backup resistance if you need it. That is by far more than everyone barring bear totem barbarian (who can only keep it up while raging).

I agree with the notion of similar to those granted by races, but I don't endorse actual Copypasting of racial traits. Keeping to that power though is alright I imagine. Let's see how that goes.:smallsmile:

As for swapping impervious, I'm open to suggestions?:smallredface:

[Submortimer]

Look, I want to keep the discussion on properly balancing the Minor Spirits, but I want to point out that some of the subclasses you are modifying are very early versions. I highly recommend you roll-back Occult Fate (http://http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19913446&postcount=388) to this version before you adapt it. Same with Twisted Fate, which is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19939824&postcount=413).

Back to the Minor Spirits:

I think the feature would work better if it wasn't level-gated. After all, once you get to 5th level, it feels like your'e making a sub-optimal decision when you bind something that isn't Prerequisite 5th level, which limits the amount of choice a player feels like they have. My goal would be to get them to the same basic level.

What is blade spirit just added+1d4 to your melee damage as a bonus action? (Also, I'm fine with it's transformation, but it would make sense of it could only form melee weapons you are proficient with.)

Poltergeist should deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, as appropriate to the item thrown. Without specifying this, it allows you to throw a decorative painting for slashing damage.

You didn't address Will-o-the-wisp granting advantage. I would suggest that the next attack roll against gains a +1d4 bonus.

If you wanted to drop level gating, Gustling could get Fog Cloud (maybe 1/short) instead of levitate, Pixie could deal 1d4 poison and disguise self 1/short, and Cherub can heal a fixed 10 hit points as a bonus action instead of giving Prayer of Healing.

Huh, good point on the subclasses, though the link for the Occult Fate is broken. I still think unnatural weapon should work similarly to the Warshaper's ability, and that abilities which affect that should change: it fits more with 5e design, and makes it way less cumbersome (not to mention the possible brokenness of getting something like 6 attacks a round mixed with hex or hunters mark).

Onto minor spirits:
I'm fine not level gating them, but it does follow course with something like the Warlock's invocations.

Blade Spirit: if I do something like that, I'll bump the damage up to 1d6. At that point, it is a weaker but always available form of Colossus strike, except that it uses your bonus action.

Poltergeist: that is obviously the intent, but without the micromanaging. I assume that any binder who uses a poltergeist has whatever type of object he needs on hand to do whatever sort of damage he wants. It's needlessly complicated otherwise. Also, I'm pretty certain a poltergeist could cut your head off with a decorative painting...just saying :smallsmile:

Will o wisp: I like that idea. Done.

Gustling: I also like that idea. Done.

Pixie: poison damage should always be higher than other types of damage, since SO many things are resistant to it (this is why Poison Spray does a d12 of damage), and im fine with disguise self at will: The level gate was added in arbitrarily, anyways.

Cherub: again, gate added arbitrarily. I chose prayer of healing because, though it heals for a lot, it is strictly out of combat.

Do me a solid and play test the crap out of these things next chance you get.


Also, Zahn, I think the resistance thing will work itself out. It seems like you'd need to plan pretty specifically to get all the resistances you're talking about, and other classes can do it sooner and better (cough bearbearian cough). I don't think it'll end up being an issue.

[Scarce]

Huh, good point on the subclasses, though the link for the Occult Fate is broken.
Fixed.



I still think unnatural weapon should work similarly to the Warshaper's ability, and that abilities which affect that should change: it fits more with 5e design, and makes it way less cumbersome (not to mention the possible brokenness of getting something like 6 attacks a round mixed with hex or hunters mark).
In that case, it might deserve yet another full rewrite.



Do me a solid and play test the crap out of these things next chance you get.
Totally. It was the DM's birthday this week, so the session got cancelled for drunken revelry, but we'll get another chance next week.

[Submortimer]

Totally. It was the DM's birthday this week, so the session got cancelled for drunken revelry, but we'll get another chance next week.

Oh hey, What day? Mine was the 2nd.

[Submortimer]

Alrighty, updated the subclass post to the most recent versions of all 4 final subclasses. Upon further review, Occult fate does not need any changes. All other changes are in place, though I'm still looking at twisted fate.

[Scarce]

Alrighty, updated the subclass post to the most recent versions of all 4 final subclasses. Upon further review, Occult fate does not need any changes. All other changes are in place, though I'm still looking at twisted fate.

Happy Birthday! Ben's birthday was yesterday

Using Warshaper as a template for the Twisted Fate might be a really good idea (bonus action to switch), if you can figure out how to incorporate vestige's natural weapons in it somehow.

[Submortimer]

I'm sure I can, it'll just take me a little bit.

And thanks!

[Prince Zahn]

Also, Zahn, I think the resistance thing will work itself out. It seems like you'd need to plan pretty specifically to get all the resistances you're talking about, and other classes can do it sooner and better (cough bearbearian cough). I don't think it'll end up being an issue.

I know the bearbarian can get that resistance, but I think it's a design issue because you don't actually need to make specific or difficult investments to get resistance to everything that matters, at least not with stronger vestiges. What's good for the goose is not necessarily good for the Binder.

[Scarce]

I know the bearbarian can get that resistance, but I think it's a design issue because you don't actually need to make specific or difficult investments to get resistance to everything that matters, at least not with stronger vestiges. What's good for the goose is not necessarily good for the Binder.

That's a solid point, but fixing would be a long and complicated process. I think I'm going to wait and see if it presents an actual problem in playtesting before I move to address it. After all, large numbers of resistances could basically help to make up for some of the class's shortcomings.

[Prince Zahn]

That's a solid point, but fixing would be a long and complicated process. I think I'm going to wait and see if it presents an actual problem in playtesting before I move to address it. After all, large numbers of resistances could basically help to make up for some of the class's shortcomings.

Fair enough :smallsmile: I merely wanted to point this out. :smallsmile:

[WarrentheHero]

I'm wondering about the changes to Occult Fate, specifically the 3rd level ability. Was it really that strong before? I used and it felt natural and fun to have another Vestige option per day. I didn't regard it as being that powerful.

Now we've moved from getting a Vestige (with a chance of Good or Poor Pact) all day to getting them Poor (Good at 13th) for a fee minutes.

Also, the lack of Prestig/Druid/Thaum/Mage Hand cantrips is just another removal of power, and not even "real power". Those cantrips are designed to be nifty at best.

I can understand the general idea of the change, but I'm uncertain it was necessary. What are/were thoughts about this?

[Scarce]

I'm wondering about the changes to Occult Fate, specifically the 3rd level ability. Was it really that strong before? I used and it felt natural and fun to have another Vestige option per day. I didn't regard it as being that powerful.

Now we've moved from getting a Vestige (with a chance of Good or Poor Pact) all day to getting them Poor (Good at 13th) for a fee minutes.

Also, the lack of Prestig/Druid/Thaum/Mage Hand cantrips is just another removal of power, and not even "real power". Those cantrips are designed to be nifty at best.

I can understand the general idea of the change, but I'm uncertain it was necessary. What are/were thoughts about this?

The difference here is a power level thing between the subclasses. When we were build-testing the earlier Occult Fate against the other subclasses, it tended to always get more features and better features earlier than the other subclasses by having another vestige. The newer one (though, granted, it's a few months old now) attempts to focus in on being the best at being a binder, while not outright being better than the other subclasses.

And you still kinda get another vestige, but now it's more strategic and you need to know when to deploy it. You get a single Extra Vestige, with the option to use it as the Empty Vessel or a Shared Vestige instead. This seemed to provide less outstanding power, and in playtesting has thus provided a measure of flexibility that is fun, but by no means too powerful.

Also, this betters fills the thematic niche of being the 'default' or 'beginner' subclass, like the Champion is to the fighter.

[Submortimer]

The difference here is a power level thing between the subclasses. When we were build-testing the earlier Occult Fate against the other subclasses, it tended to always get more features and better features earlier than the other subclasses by having another vestige. The newer one (though, granted, it's a few months old now) attempts to focus in on being the best at being a binder, while not outright being better than the other subclasses.

And you still kinda get another vestige, but now it's more strategic and you need to know when to deploy it. You get a single Extra Vestige, with the option to use it as the Empty Vessel or a Shared Vestige instead. This seemed to provide less outstanding power, and in playtesting has thus provided a measure of flexibility that is fun, but by no means too powerful.

Also, this betters fills the thematic niche of being the 'default' or 'beginner' subclass, like the Champion is to the fighter.

Pretty much this. The Occult Fate is more about versatility than power: you have more vestige options in a given day than any other type of binder, plus you get a zombie pet.

Also, with the inclusion of minor spirits, everyone across the board got a power boost, so the occult fate should be fine.

[Submortimer]

Made a few changes to Twisted fate. I think it works much more cleanly now: anyone who is familiar with Scarce's Warshaper or the spell Alter Self will notice similar text, and that is now by design.

[Submortimer]

Hey all, wanted to keep this guy fresh in everyones mind.

Do we think that there are still changes that need to be made? Are we comfortable with things how they currently are? can we make up a PDF and put it out on the site so that we can get some more extensive playtesting going?

[Scarce]

Hey all, wanted to keep this guy fresh in everyones mind.

Do we think that there are still changes that need to be made? Are we comfortable with things how they currently are? can we make up a PDF and put it out on the site so that we can get some more extensive playtesting going?

Well, I'd be more than happy to work on the PDF, but I'd like to get one more session of playtesting out there before I call things final. By the way, is the gustling intended to have a prereq right now?

[Prince Zahn]

Hey all, wanted to keep this guy fresh in everyones mind.

Do we think that there are still changes that need to be made? Are we comfortable with things how they currently are? can we make up a PDF and put it out on the site so that we can get some more extensive playtesting going?

I don't think I have much to add right now. Looking forward to seeing the PDF :smallsmile: I wonder what your blog fans will think about it, guys.

[AirApparent]

Hello all, I'm a big fan of the binder and love how the product has come out.

Considering there is one role I think that a vestige doesn't cover so far, healer, might I propose a Buer workup?

This is just my quick build, feel free to rip it apart, but so far the only ability to heal as a binder is through the cherub spirit.


Saving Gift:
You can cast the cantrip Spare the Dying.

Healing Gift:
As an action, you may touch a creature to have them regain hit points equal to 3d8 + your spellcasting modifier. This ability has no effect on constructs or undead. Once you have done so, you cannot use this ability again until you complete a short or long rest.
At 11th level, this raises to 5d8 + your spellcasting modifier, and 7d8 + your spellcasting modifier at 15th level

Delay Poison and Disease:
Each ally within 30 feet of has resistance to poison damage and cannot have the poisoned condition for as long as they remain in the area. Furthermore, allies within the area automatically succeed on saves to avoid contracting a disease and are immune to the effects of any disease they are infected with, but only while within the area.

Buer’s Knowledge:
You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks and checks made with the Healing Kit and Herbalist’s kit. You also add your proficiency bonus to Wisdom (Survival) checks made to follow tracks.

Fast Healing:
You regain 1 hit point every round, up to your maximum hit points. This increases to 2 hit points at 13th level, and 3 hit points at 18th level.


LegendLegend: Buer tells many different stories about how she
came to be a vestige, so her true origins remain obscure. In various popular versions of the tales, she is a beautiful elf maiden who fell to evil satyrs, a virtuous human ranger killed by a chimera, or a green hag slain by a lammasu. It’s likely that Buer herself cannot remember who she was in life or what brought her to her current state, and the stories she tells are cobbled together from the shreds of her memory that remain. Regardless of what her true form once was, most binders believe that she possessed great skill as a hunter and healer in life.
Manifestation: Buer’s form is that of a five-branched star, or wheel, composed of satyr legs. She has two faces, one positioned on each side of her wheel-shaped body at the center point where the five legs meet. One face is that of a green hag, and the other is a raging, leonine visage with an unruly mane and beard. Buer constantly moves within her seal, rolling from foot to foot as she traverses its circumference. She always keeps her raging face outward, but she speaks from her green hag face in a friendly manner with a gentle voice. When her body rolls in such a way that her hag face cannot see her summoner, Buer grows frustrated and begins yelling curses at her body.
Sign: Your feet turn into satyr’s hooves, giving you a curious tip-toeing gait. These hooves prevent you from wearing normal boots or shoes, but magic footwear reshapes to fit you.
Influence
Flaw: My memory is poor, and I often briegly forget even familiar information.
Trait: I cannot bring myself to kill living things needlessly, save those that should be hunted

[Scarce]

Hello all, I'm a big fan of the binder and love how the product has come out.

Considering there is one role I think that a vestige doesn't cover so far, healer, might I propose a Buer workup?

This is just my quick build, feel free to rip it apart, but so far the only ability to heal as a binder is through the cherub spirit.


Saving Gift:
You can cast the cantrip Spare the Dying.

Healing Gift:
As an action, you may touch a creature to have them regain hit points equal to 3d8 + your spellcasting modifier. This ability has no effect on constructs or undead. Once you have done so, you cannot use this ability again until you complete a short or long rest.
At 11th level, this raises to 5d8 + your spellcasting modifier, and 7d8 + your spellcasting modifier at 15th level

Delay Poison and Disease:
Each ally within 30 feet of has resistance to poison damage and cannot have the poisoned condition for as long as they remain in the area. Furthermore, allies within the area automatically succeed on saves to avoid contracting a disease and are immune to the effects of any disease they are infected with, but only while within the area.

Buer’s Knowledge:
You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks and checks made with the Healing Kit and Herbalist’s kit. You also add your proficiency bonus to Wisdom (Survival) checks made to follow tracks.

Fast Healing:
You regain 1 hit point every round, up to your maximum hit points. This increases to 2 hit points at 13th level, and 3 hit points at 18th level.


LegendLegend: Buer tells many different stories about how she
came to be a vestige, so her true origins remain obscure. In various popular versions of the tales, she is a beautiful elf maiden who fell to evil satyrs, a virtuous human ranger killed by a chimera, or a green hag slain by a lammasu. It’s likely that Buer herself cannot remember who she was in life or what brought her to her current state, and the stories she tells are cobbled together from the shreds of her memory that remain. Regardless of what her true form once was, most binders believe that she possessed great skill as a hunter and healer in life.
Manifestation: Buer’s form is that of a five-branched star, or wheel, composed of satyr legs. She has two faces, one positioned on each side of her wheel-shaped body at the center point where the five legs meet. One face is that of a green hag, and the other is a raging, leonine visage with an unruly mane and beard. Buer constantly moves within her seal, rolling from foot to foot as she traverses its circumference. She always keeps her raging face outward, but she speaks from her green hag face in a friendly manner with a gentle voice. When her body rolls in such a way that her hag face cannot see her summoner, Buer grows frustrated and begins yelling curses at her body.
Sign: Your feet turn into satyr’s hooves, giving you a curious tip-toeing gait. These hooves prevent you from wearing normal boots or shoes, but magic footwear reshapes to fit you.
Influence
Flaw: My memory is poor, and I often briegly forget even familiar information.
Trait: I cannot bring myself to kill living things needlessly, save those that should be hunted



Before I actually dig into the mechanics/writing here, we really need to discuss if we want the Binder to be able to magically heal. What do you guys think?

I've been against this because I think that the binder is fundamentally an arcane caster, and wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks can't heal. Even just giving them some way to cast Cure Wounds is a major game-changer.

[JNAProductions]

Erm... Bards. Arcane casters who get Healing Word and Cure Wounds.

And if you don't want them healing, make a similar spell with a higher healing die that only gives THP.

[Prince Zahn]

Erm... Bards. Arcane casters who get Healing Word and Cure Wounds.

And if you don't want them healing, make a similar spell with a higher healing die that only gives THP.

Like False Life? :smallconfused:

Where arcane casters go, Bards are the exception to the role. I'm the last person to properly tell you why that is.

I agree that actual healing is not something this iteration of the Binder should be equipped with. If we make a Buer, healing should not be the focus nor intent of it.

[Scarce]

Where arcane casters go, Bards are the exception to the role. I'm the last person to properly tell you why that is.

Something about AD&D druid prerequisites?



I agree that actual healing is not something this iteration of the Binder should be equipped with. If we make a Buer, healing should not be the focus nor intent of it.
Look, I think we need playtesting before we make that call for sure. My worry is that since it's the only source of healing, it has a very high strategic value, possibly more than any of the other vestiges. Healing is just that important in the grand scheme of things. But I will say this: previous playtesting sessions have revealed that this class feels more like a cleric than a sorcerer or a warlock, and that might mean Buer is something worth considering.

Also, AirApparent actually put forth a really, really good draft, so that's already there if we want it. We might be able to balance it if we make Healing Gift apply only to creatures other than yourself and Fast Healing apply only until your are at half your maximum HP. It's rather declawing it, but it keeps things balanced.

I'd love to hear what Submortimer thinks on the subject.

[WarrentheHero]

So just a couple days ago I had a session as an Occult Fate Binder 11/Warlock 2. We're 13th level and most of the party is pretty stupid overpowered, but in thing kept nagging at me as I was playing the new version of Occult Fate: I felt like I had lost my versatility.

The reworking of Extra Vestige means that I had a small variety of 'holdout vestiges' that I could use if I needed to. But when that's not in use, I have 3 Vestiges like everyone else. So I have some versatility present, yeah. But then one of the players at my table asked if I could bind one of my Vestiges to them and I responded with something similar to "No, I might need it later." That bugged me and it wasn't until recently that I realized why. I felt that I had been limited in my subclass to the point where I could enjoy one or another feature, but not both. I could either have a Vestige on-call for myself, or I could bind them to someone else and after 10 minutes become just like any other Binder sans subclass.
Maybe I only feel this way because I started with another note powerful version of the subclass and I'm still just adapting to the change; I'll have to play more sessions to be sure. But to me something just isn't quite right when using one class feature locks me out of using another.

Having said all of that, I understand that versatility doesn't mean "do anything" so much as it means "can do anything" so there isn't an inherent problem with making choices. But at the table I felt that my choices were limiting me, especially when compared to the other subclasses whose features are 'always on'.

I don't have any suggestions at the moment, but I wanted to share my thoughts and experiences about the new Occult Fate.


Concerning things not about the Occult Fate specifically, the Minor Spirits were somewhat useful, though in this particular session we didn't do too much combat so they couldn't properly shine. I did discover that Aoskar's teleport is probably too strong. A free 15-foot teleport as an action, however much you want per day? It's not Misty Step, but in a lot of situations it's roughly equivalent.
I did have a bunch if fun as Zagan; I think he's in the right place. Bonus points because I used his Serpent's Terror on a group of Yuan-Ti, scaring them if themselves.
I was also bound to Ipos for a small while, but that was for roleplay, not combat. I feel like Ronove is the better unarmed Vestige, despite Ipos's bonus action. Having said that, if their two features stack the way I think they do, it looks like a fun combo.

[Submortimer]

On Buer: I'm almost totally fine with this as presented. Having a 1/short rest, single target heal is nowhere near as overpowering as giving a wizard the ability to cast cure wounds. Vestiges do all kinds of crazy things, and healing can certainly be be one of them.

That being said, fast healing should only work while you are below half health: otherwise, it ends up being strictly better than the Champion's 18th level ability.

On Occult Fate: I can understand your hesitation at the lack of personal versatility, but the Occult Fate is designed to be the "Support Caster" of the subclasses. You should always strive to either have a pet or give another character a vestige if at all possible, since that means more vestige powers can be used during a given turn than normal. with your minor spirits, you should have something to do on any given round, and let your minions do all the heavy lifting.

At least, thats how I see it.

[Scarce]

Well, we just had another session of playtesting the other day, and it went really well. I bound Andras and Paimon for combat synergy, and it worked nicely; not too powerful, but competent next to the Fighter. I even scored a crit on a nat 19 thanks to Andras.

I had a really, really hard time pulling off Paimon's dance though, and it ate up my bonus actions, so I'm in favor of removing this check completely. It offered the same damage as my torchling did, plus being able to avoid Opportunity Attacks, but the high DC really made it feel completely unreliable. If nooone has any complaints, I'll just pull out the check, and allow you to do it as a bonus action.

@Occult Fate & The Number of Vestiges

Occult Fate: I felt like I had lost my versatility.

Okay, I want to chime in here, because I totally understand where you're coming from. With the number of vestiges you can select at a time right now, this class feels restricted when you pick, like you have a hard time building a reliable character. Even at the level I'm at (8th), it feels like I need to pick 1 more vestige every morning to be complete. Like, I can select 2 vestiges to make myself competent in combat, but I really want another one for defense, utility, skills, or a few spells.

I need to note that this must be a problem with the entire class, regardless of subclass, and the solution is not to just give Occult Fate another free vestige all day; it remedies the problem for that subclass, but leaves the others with the issue.

Two more comments: the Minor Spirits help this issue a lot, and the restriction has its positives. After all, it requires you to specialize and look for synergies.

Solution A: Give +1 vestiges bound at a time for all binder levels. Naturally, this is a dramatic step, but one worth considering. It risks making the binder too powerful (where right now, it is probably a little lacking for power), and it removes the forced specialization, but it would feel a lot more gratifying when it comes to options (as you can see with Warren's major complaint.) It also means you can get a lot of vestiges at one time pretty early on with Occult Fate, which feels a little risky.

Solution B: Leave it alone, and give the Occult Fate an Extra Vestige once/short or long rest, rather than long. This encourages you to give your extra vestiges to friends, rather than hold onto them tightly.

There might be a third option, but I can't think of one.

@Aoskar's Teleport
So I totally haven't tried this vestige myself, but the alchemist in our party has basically the same mechanic, and I haven't seen too many problems with it so far. The major limitations is that is is limited to teleporting to places that you can see and its action use time, which keeps it from being stellar in combat. Also, if you reach an area otherwise inaccessible, your party can't really follow, and you're left lone-wolfing it.

[Prince Zahn]

Yes, Scarce. There is always a Solution C. :smallsmile:

I might be the only one here who hasn't tried the Binder yet, but as an observer, I think this issue is all about semantics, and could be fixed with recording some features. I'm looking at the post #2 Occult fate and Warrent's post. If either of these are not up to date, it's not on me for once.

Now excuse me, while I quote the sky. :smallcool:


but in thing kept nagging at me as I was playing the new version of Occult Fate: I felt like I had lost my versatility. this is the effect, however undesired. But:

So I have some versatility present, yeah. But then one of the players at my table asked if I could bind one of my Vestiges to them and I responded with something similar to "No, I might need it later." [...] I felt that I had been limited in my subclass to the point where I could enjoy one or another feature, but not both.
To my understanding, this is the real issue. You have one additional vestige per day, and 3 mutually exclusive means of using it. If a 2 binders can bind the same vestige, why can't an Occult Fate Binder Bind a vestige once to himself, and again on a willing companion? Why can't he bind it a third time on a corpse or skeleton?
Additional question: where exactly does it say the duration of Empty Vessel? Or Shared Vestige, for that matter? It says 10 minutes for the pact making ritual, yeah, but there's nowhere mentioning it's duration functions like Extra Vestige.

RAW, some bits highlighted: ("cause")

A BINDER'S FATE

OCCULT FATE
EXTRA VESTIGE0
At 3rd level, as an action, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges with a Poor Pact without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels, or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you cannot renegotiate a new vestige in its place. At 13th level, you always bind this vestige with a Good Pact.

This vestige is expelled after 1 minute1. At 7th level, this duration increases: the vestige is expelled after 10 minutes, at 13th level the vestige is expelled when you take a short or long rest, and at 17th level only when you take a long rest. Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest to do so again.

SHARE VESTIGE
Starting at 7th level, when you bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead2 bind it to another willing host (that is not a binder) with a Poor Pact as a 10 minute ritual. Doing so requires a binding check against that vestige. On a failed check, you instead bind the vestige to yourself with a Poor Pact.

EMPTY VESSEL
Starting at 13th level, when you bind your Extra Vestige, you can instead2 bind it to a corpse or skeleton as a 10 minute ritual, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:
[List]
The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires3, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points.
I think it could be solved with a minimal reworking and rewording:
0Context.
1I think a simple fix would be adding the words "when you bind a vestige this way, it is expelled after. . ." rather than keeping the duration universal.
2by removing this first line, and making the feature work on it's own, we could make these issues go away. No need to remodel the class to take 6 vestiges, just remove the ultimatum. From my perspective, Our issue here really is just the wording in the subclass, not the actual class design (not that our design, or any design for that matter is optimal, in many ways we favored nostalgia over simplicity and mechanical smoothness for this iteration.)
3simple clarification: duration of animate dead? Of the extra vestige? If it is of the latter, there might be an issue here too. Best write a duration or model it after Animate Dead.

There is an option C: drop the ultimatum between Occult subclass feature options, delicately reword some Gray areas that are more limiting than helping. :)

[Submortimer]

Zahn, I like where you're going with this. I'll make the changes post haste.

[Prince Zahn]

Zahn, I like where you're going with this. I'll make the changes post haste.

Thanks! Ideas from an outside perspective is are my specialty. :smallredface:

[Scarce]

Zahn, I like where you're going with this. I'll make the changes post haste.
I seem to remember there was a lot of concern that having an Extra Vestige, a vestige on a friend, and a minion all at once would be too powerful, and I still agree with this. All three at once is too powerful; it's not at all a limitation due to theme.

My preferred change would be to leave all three features linked, but make the Extra Vestige a short rest recharge, though if you're going to decouple them, you should consider a way of keeping only 1 active at a time. Like, you can migrate your Extra Vestige from one person/thing to another as an action.

[Prince Zahn]

I seem to remember there was a lot of concern that having an Extra Vestige, a vestige on a friend, and a minion all at once would be too powerful, and I still agree with this. All three at once is too powerful; it's not at all a limitation due to theme.

My preferred change would be to leave all three features linked, but make the Extra Vestige a short rest recharge, though if you're going to decouple them, you should consider a way of keeping only 1 active at a time. Like, you can migrate your Extra Vestige from one person/thing to another as an action.

I don't know about rests, but how about utilizing concentration when the vestige goes on a willing or deceased host, which you could alternate as an (bonus-/) action?

[WarrentheHero]

I don't know about rests, but how about utilizing concentration when the vestige goes on a willing or deceased host, which you could alternate as an (bonus-/) action?
I don't think it needs to be that complex, and I think that might be a bit too flexible. I think that when they bind any given Vestige, either to themselves or a body or a friend, that Vestige remains bound for the full 24 hours of a regular binding, at which point the Vestige leaves. We shouldn't overburden the subclass's mechanics with a switching mechanic, especially since if it takes 10 minutes to implement the ritual, it doesn't make sense to basically re-bind that Vestige in the space of ~2 seconds.
The only exception to this is if they bind their Extra Vestige as an additional Vestige per the feature.

Here's my take on where Occult Fate should lean:

Favored Vestiges
Beginning when you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level no higher than your highest Vestige level minus two (minimum 1). You always make a Good Pact when you bind these vestiges normally.

You can select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

Extra Vestige
At 3rd level, your stronger bond with certain Vestiges allows you to call for their aid in dire situations. As an action, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges to yourself with a Poor Pact for 5 minutes, at which point the Vestige leaves you. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.

At 7th level, the Vestige lasts for 1 hour. At 13th level, it lasts for 4 hours, and at 17th level you regain use of this feature following a short rest.

Share Vestige
Beginning at 7th level, your binding skill improves tot he point of being able to bind Vestiges into other creatures. During a 10-minute ritual, you may attempt to bind one of your Favored Vestiges to another willing creature, who cannot have the Soul Binding feature or have a Vestige currently bound. During this ritual, you make a Binding Check, following normal rules, but instead of being bound to you, the Vestige is bound to the creature with a Poor Pact. If bound this way, the Vestige counts towards the maximum level of Vestiges you may have bound in one day, but not the maximum number of Vestiges you may have bound at once. If you fail the Check, the Vestige is instead bound to you with a Poor Pact.
In either case, this binding lasts for 24 hours, and cannot be expelled via the Renegotiation class feature. While any Vestige is bound to a creature other than you this way, you may not use your Extra Vestige class feature. Likewise, this ritual cannot be undertaken while you are bound to a Favored Vestige via Extra Vestige.

Empty Vessel
Starting at 13th level, you can implant a Vestige directly within a body as an animating force. During a 10-minute ritual, you may bind one of your Favored Vestiges to a corpse, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige, including the Vestige's sign.
The undead can ignore your mental commands if those commands would contradict the Vestige's influences and will act in accordance as having both influences of its bound vestige.

This Vestige counts towards the maximum level of Vestiges you may bind per day, but not the maximum number of Vestiges you may have bound at once.
The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points. While an undead is bound to a Vestige due to this feature, you cannot undergo the ritual for Shared Vestige, nor can you use your Extra Vestige class feature. Likewise, this ritual cannot be undertaken while you are bound to a Favored Vestige via Extra Vestige or while another creature is bound to a Vestige via Share Vestige.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Master Summoner
By 17th level, your skills in the sealing of pacts and binding of Vestiges is unmatched. Once per long rest, you may use an action to expel one Vestige and immediately bind another, following standard rules for Renegotiation. Additionally, you have advantage on all Binding Checks not made during Renegotiation.
Obviously this is more like a rough draft than anything since this is the first time I've actually got my hands dirty and made something for the class besides saying "I don't like ___." I don't see really any problem with the 13th level feature, but I felt Master Summoner was a bit lame as a capstone so I sweetened it a bit. Here's my logic for some other changes I made:
Favored Vestiges: By effectively increasing the late-game levels of the Vestiges, I've added some raw number-power to the subclass. Might tone it back down to being Vestiges of levels 1, 2, 3, 4 as it was before. Currently it's 1, 2, 5, 7.
Extra Vestige: Added strength in the form of increased duration. 5 minutes can last maybe two combats instead of one, so the Binder doesn't have to feel quite so hesitant to actually use this feature. I actually don't like the numbers for levels 7 and 13, but I knew I wanted it to increase from 5. For most intents and purposes, the 17th level upgrade is the same as an all-day use of the feature, but with the potential to still limit the feature's power.
Shared Vestige: Cleaned up some language a bit and made it unable to stack with other usages of Favored Vestiges. However, this power is compensated for by it not counting against your Vestige total.
Empty Vessel: Same as before, cleared up language and made it not stack. Also doesn't count against your total number of Vestiges. Added bonus in that you can actually control the undead as long as you don't make it ignore the Vestige animating it.


I've also been thinking for some time about a possible feat for the Binder:

Prerequisite: Charisma 13, do not have the Soul Binding class feature
At some point you've come across some information pertaining to the eldritch slivers of power known as Vestiges. You gain the following benefits:

You gain proficiency in Ritual Implements
Choose 2 1st-level Vestiges. You know the proper esoteric rituals required to summon these Vestiges.
Once per long rest, you may undergo a 1-minute ritual to summon one of the Vestiges you know of. Make a Charisma check against the Vestige's Pact DC. If you are successful, you are bound to the Vestige with a Poor Pact for a period of 24 hours, gaining the features granted by that Vestige. This Vestige can be expelled as a bonus action. If the pact is broken early for any reason (including ignoring the Vestige's Influence), the Vestige immediately leaves you and you have disadvantage on the next check you make to attempt to bind to it.
You are treated as having the Soul Binding class feature.

Special: If you gain this feat and then gain a level int he Binder class, that class's version of Soul Binding supersedes this feat
It's significantly weaker than what even a level 1 Binder can do, but at the same time offers a way for other characters to get in on the action. It's prerequisite and Special property, effectively barring a Binder from taking this feat in order to stack Vestiges the same way that a caster might take Magic Initiate in order to stack spells, since a Wizard with an extra 1st-level spell per day is significantly less crazy than a Binder with an extra Vestige per day.



Also, are you still taking submissions for new Vestiges? I've been thinking about a few original Vestiges that might be fun/neat to implement if we're still doing that.

[Submortimer]

How bout this: Scarce, since you're the one done the heavy lifting with regards to playtesting, give it a shot where you can use all three abilities at once. See how powerful it actually is when we swing hard in the other direction.

Also, for anyone else, have we done any playtesting for the other three fates yet?

[Prince Zahn]

Also, for anyone else, have we done any playtesting for the other three fates yet?

Scarce did some controlled testing on them, at the very least.

Given the option, I would jump at the opportunity to playtest the Twisted Fate Binder (I fought for it in the past because I wanted it, after all!) . Alas, I don't have friends who know 5e as well as I do. Much less to actually run me a game for homebrew. When it comes to 5e games in my circle of friends, I'm usually the one running because of it. So to sum up, I played a lot of 5e, but only on Forums:smallredface:, and that's not an adequate platform to playtest an entire class, if you ask me.

EDIT:
With that in mind... I have an organization of gnomes in my campaign that might fit the bill. I just need to build more upon it. My only hesitation is that I'm experimenting material against my players. I'm kinda scared of it going awry 0. 0

[Scarce]

Here's my take on where Occult Fate should lean:

Favored Vestiges
Beginning when you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level no higher than your highest Vestige level minus two (minimum 1). You always make a Good Pact when you bind these vestiges normally.

You can select an additional vestige at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

Extra Vestige
At 3rd level, your stronger bond with certain Vestiges allows you to call for their aid in dire situations. As an action, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges to yourself with a Poor Pact for 5 minutes, at which point the Vestige leaves you. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.

At 7th level, the Vestige lasts for 1 hour. At 13th level, it lasts for 4 hours, and at 17th level you regain use of this feature following a short rest.

Share Vestige
Beginning at 7th level, your binding skill improves tot he point of being able to bind Vestiges into other creatures. During a 10-minute ritual, you may attempt to bind one of your Favored Vestiges to another willing creature, who cannot have the Soul Binding feature or have a Vestige currently bound. During this ritual, you make a Binding Check, following normal rules, but instead of being bound to you, the Vestige is bound to the creature with a Poor Pact. If bound this way, the Vestige counts towards the maximum level of Vestiges you may have bound in one day, but not the maximum number of Vestiges you may have bound at once. If you fail the Check, the Vestige is instead bound to you with a Poor Pact.
In either case, this binding lasts for 24 hours, and cannot be expelled via the Renegotiation class feature. While any Vestige is bound to a creature other than you this way, you may not use your Extra Vestige class feature. Likewise, this ritual cannot be undertaken while you are bound to a Favored Vestige via Extra Vestige.

Empty Vessel
Starting at 13th level, you can implant a Vestige directly within a body as an animating force. During a 10-minute ritual, you may bind one of your Favored Vestiges to a corpse, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige, including the Vestige's sign.
The undead can ignore your mental commands if those commands would contradict the Vestige's influences and will act in accordance as having both influences of its bound vestige.

This Vestige counts towards the maximum level of Vestiges you may bind per day, but not the maximum number of Vestiges you may have bound at once.
The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points. While an undead is bound to a Vestige due to this feature, you cannot undergo the ritual for Shared Vestige, nor can you use your Extra Vestige class feature. Likewise, this ritual cannot be undertaken while you are bound to a Favored Vestige via Extra Vestige or while another creature is bound to a Vestige via Share Vestige.

Medium
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

Master Summoner
By 17th level, your skills in the sealing of pacts and binding of Vestiges is unmatched. Once per long rest, you may use an action to expel one Vestige and immediately bind another, following standard rules for Renegotiation. Additionally, you have advantage on all Binding Checks not made during Renegotiation.

Okay, a lot to talk about here.

I'm really against the idea of having to leave yourself weaker to use class features later, and that's what counting against your vestige level does. At it's worst, it's completely useless, like whenever you decide to bind all your vestige levels in 1 day, and at its best it encourages you to be be weaker now in exchange for a possible vestige later.

I'm also not a huge fan of increasing the duration of Extra Vestige at lower levels (higher levels might be fine, but I haven't looked into it closely.) A binder that can only have 1 vestige at a time at lower levels needs to select it pretty carefully, and being able to effectively double his power and options at lower levels makes him far more powerful than other binders, in addition to being far more versatile. One minute might seem limited, but this is pretty hugely different compared to other binders of the level. After all, Twisted Fate gets an unarmed strike at this level and a skill proficiency, and Sealed Fate gets a little bit of natural armor and a fighting style. An entire vestige nets you so much more (and such a large selection of things to pick from) that the 1 minute duration is really the only way to justify it.

Also, you made the list of Favored Vestiges stronger, which I totally agree with. Now, interestingly, I looked over my character sheet and realized that I made a mistake on it; I've been playing with Favored Vestiges of higher level than I should have, and it didn't feel the least bit broken. In fact, the diversity of options on this list was pretty refreshing, since it was basically the source of the feature's diversity in the first place. So my recommendation on this would be to:

Increase the number of Favored Vestige at all levels by 1 or 2
and Increase the level limit on Favored Vestiges to 'a level no higher than your highest Vestige level - 1 (minimum 1)'

Lastly, I'm really confused on how your changes make this any more versatile. For Share Vestige and Empty Vessel, you bind the vestige for an entire 24-hours and lock the selection down. This isn't much of a change for Empty Vessel, because in my version Extra Vestige is 'until short rest' at this level. The big change here is that you're giving a vestige to an ally for an entire day, rather than a fight or two, which seems a little much. After all, this isn't a party-buff subclass. The changes should be pretty temporary, I think.

I'm thinking that Share Vestige needs the ritual reduced from a 10-minute ritual, however. 1 minute, or even 1 action, might be more appropriate.



I've also been thinking for some time about a possible feat for the Binder:

Prerequisite: Charisma 13, do not have the Soul Binding class feature
At some point you've come across some information pertaining to the eldritch slivers of power known as Vestiges. You gain the following benefits:

You gain proficiency in Ritual Implements
Choose 2 1st-level Vestiges. You know the proper esoteric rituals required to summon these Vestiges.
Once per long rest, you may undergo a 1-minute ritual to summon one of the Vestiges you know of. Make a Charisma check against the Vestige's Pact DC. If you are successful, you are bound to the Vestige with a Poor Pact for a period of 24 hours, gaining the features granted by that Vestige. This Vestige can be expelled as a bonus action. If the pact is broken early for any reason (including ignoring the Vestige's Influence), the Vestige immediately leaves you and you have disadvantage on the next check you make to attempt to bind to it.
You are treated as having the Soul Binding class feature.

Special: If you gain this feat and then gain a level int he Binder class, that class's version of Soul Binding supersedes this feat
It's significantly weaker than what even a level 1 Binder can do, but at the same time offers a way for other characters to get in on the action. It's prerequisite and Special property, effectively barring a Binder from taking this feat in order to stack Vestiges the same way that a caster might take Magic Initiate in order to stack spells, since a Wizard with an extra 1st-level spell per day is significantly less crazy than a Binder with an extra Vestige per day.

Look, I just don't know at all if this works. Generally, I think that vestiges are a little more powerful and offer more than feats do, but I can't tell if this is too powerful. Like, make a list of all the stuff that you get from Naberius. Is that more powerful than a feat? I'm really leaning into yes, but I'm open to hearing everyone's opinions here.

I definitely think it presents a problem for Binders. I would kill for another vestige at a time in my game, even just a 1st level one. I guess this seems too attractive compared to literally any other feat option.



Also, are you still taking submissions for new Vestiges? I've been thinking about a few original Vestiges that might be fun/neat to implement if we're still doing that.
Eh, I certainly don't want to write up a codex for them. We didn't balance half of the ones that were written before, as we spent most of our time trying to get the 'core' vestiges together and working. I doubt anyone will object if you put them up here, but it's not something I would bank on getting a PDF anytime soon.

[Scarce]

How bout this: Scarce, since you're the one done the heavy lifting with regards to playtesting, give it a shot where you can use all three abilities at once. See how powerful it actually is when we swing hard in the other direction.

I mean, I'm only at 8th level in the current playtest, so Empty Vessel is off the table right now, by the party fighter had a field day using Haagenti for a combat, so I have an idea of how much damage the right vestige can do with the other party members. I mean, you can get some powerful combinations with the other classes. Malphas, for example, is really powerful when bound to the party rogue (unless the bonus sneak attack dice are calculated using the rogue's binder level of 0. Actually, we should probably address that in Share Vestige.)

[Submortimer]

Here's my thoughts:

1. lets make the changes to favored vestiges scarce suggested

2. Share vestige = 1/short or long rest, it lasts till you take a short or long rest, can only be a favored vestige.

3. Empty vessel = 1/ long rest, lasts 24 hours (the duration of Animate dead), can only be a favored vestige, can only have one active at a time.

seem appropriate?

[Submortimer]

(unless the bonus sneak attack dice are calculated using the rogue's binder level of 0. Actually, we should probably address that in Share Vestige.)

Agreed. I'd say a general note on the codex should be something like "If a vestige grants you an ability you already have from another class, you must select one or the other."

e.g. If a rogue gets the bonus sneak attack damage, he can either use the vestige's bonus dice or his own damage dice, not both. this does make that guy less valuable for the rogue, but that's not really what we care about.

[Scarce]

More playtesting today -- things are pretty good. The minor spirits really make the class a whole lot more playable. It made my turn feel way more interesting being able to deal a 1d8 with my torchling, and the fire bolt wasn't bad either.

We tried to give an extra vestige to an ally and myself at the same time and it honestly felt like too much. I got Malphas and started dishing out the sneak attack dice, while the party fighter got enlarge from Haagenti and proceeded to wreck shop (this was me picking for some of the weaker vestiges.) The leap in power was really strange. It felt like I had a get-out-of-jail-free card because I could pick whatever vestige fit the situation for myself while buffing the tank so I didn't have to worry about being squashed. On one hand, that additional versatility is what makes this subclass great fun, pulling out the extra vestige always felt like the gloves were coming off, but also getting a huge party buff made this trump card a little too much, like suddenly half the party was unstoppable.

Other notes: Malphas needs shortsword proficiency (I'll make that change ASAP) and the ritual time for Share Vestige and Extra Vestige is dumb and should be cut down to an action.

And, with the above in mind, here's my new version of the Occult Fate:

FAVORED VESTIGES
Beginning when you select this fate at 3rd level, select 3 vestiges you know that you have made a good pact with; these vestiges must be of a level less than your highest known vestige level. You always make a good pact when you bind these vestiges.

You can select two additional Favored Vestiges at 7th, 13th, and 17th level. Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose replace a Favored Vestige with another vestige that you can bind at that level.

EXTRA VESTIGE
At 3rd level, as an action, you can bind one of your Favored Vestiges with a poor pact without it counting against your daily limit of vestige levels or number of vestiges bound. You can expel this vestige normally, but you cannot renegotiate a new vestige in its place. At 13th level, you always bind this vestige with a good pact.

This vestige is expelled after 1 minute. At 7th level, this duration increases: the vestige is expelled after 10 minutes, at 13th level the vestige is expelled when you take a short or long rest, and at 17th level only when you take a long rest. Once you use this ability, you must finish a long rest to do so again.

SHARE VESTIGE
Starting at 7th level, you can bind your Extra Vestige to another willing host (that is not a binder) within 30 feet as an action. This host Your ally uses your binder level, spell attack bonus, and vestige save DC for this vestige. Your Extra Vestige always has a bad pact while bound to a host that is not a binder. If you are already bound to your Extra Vestige, you can transfer the vestige to a willing host or back to yourself as an action.

EMPTY VESSEL
Starting at 13th level, you can bind your Extra Vestige to a corpse or skeleton as a 10 minute ritual, animating the body as per the spell animate dead, but with the following differences:

The undead gains all the features as it would being bound to the chosen vestige.
The undead can ignore your mental commands, and will act in accordance as having both influences of its bound vestige.

The Extra Vestige is expelled and the undead host disintegrates when its duration expires, or is expelled early when you or the undead creature are reduced to zero hit points.

MEDIUM
At 13th level, you learn to channel vestiges with much greater efficiency and fluidity. When renegotiating your pacts following a short rest, you can expel any or all of your current vestiges, and make new pacts as if it was following a long rest; you still cannot exceed your maximum number of vestiges bound at one time. As well, you do not have disadvantage when attempting to re-bind an expelled vestige within 24 hours.
After using this ability to renegotiate your pacts, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest.

MASTER SUMMONER
By 17th level, you learn to expedite the binding process to the point that you can swap vestiges in the blink of an eye. As an action, you can expel a bound vestige and bind a new vestige, following the standard rules for renegotiation. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.

Changes:
More favored vestiges, favored vestiges have higher levels
Share vestige can be transferred as an action - uses your stats for the vestige - always has a bad pact with non-binders

[Submortimer]

Alright, I FINALLY updated the Occult Fate to Scarce's new version. Is there anything else that needs to change? Are we done? Are we ready to fianlly put this thing together and get it out in front of people?

[Scarce]

I've still been playtesting this, and it's a blast to play. I'd say it's complete (if only because I never call anything 'final'.) I'll start working on the PDF when I find a free week or so.

[Prince Zahn]

Alright, I FINALLY updated the Occult Fate to Scarce's new version. Is there anything else that needs to change? Are we done? Are we ready to fianlly put this thing together and get it out in front of people?

I'd assume so, I'm kind of irked by the idea that all of the Occult fate abilities can work with 8th level vestiges, (since you can just keep trading in favored vestiges for the most powerful ones you can when you level up) though I have a feeling that this gut feeling of mine won't change much at this point.

[Nemixen]

Hello, really like the ideas here, and when I get a chance I will totally be playing this class, not sure which path I'll use yet, but I really want to play this.

On a somewhat related note, I was wondering if you guys could help me, you see I'm GMing a 5e campaign at the moment and one of my players wants to be able to imbue spirits into weapons, and channel abilities via them. What he was requesting reminded me of the Occult Path for this brew. So we tried to modify the path features to match with what we wanted. However I'm only a starting GM, I'm...worried that this idea would be unbalanced or would ruin the class in some way, I'm also not sure if a class that does what I am after even exists. (which it probably does)

So I don't high jack the thread, I'll post my idea into a spoiler tag and hope that someone from here will respond to me via PM.
Bind Weapon: Starting at 3rd level you can bind a vestige to a weapon (or item) of your choice. This ritual takes 1 hour to compete, and after completion the weapon can be shunted to an extra dimensional space and re summoned as a bonus action, it disappears if it moves more than 5ft away from you.

You must be wielding said weapon to access the abilities of your vestige. However the affects of bad pacts persist.

Weapon Casting: Starting at 3/7rd level you cast your ranged spells (other than cantrips) as an additional action after a successful melee attack, However the spells range is limited to that target.

7th or higher Your weapon is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance and armour.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I hope you don't feel it was a waste of time.

[Kane0]

Looks good, i'm looking forward to giving this a test run sometime. Will definitely give feedback!

[Garresh]

Hello, really like the ideas here, and when I get a chance I will totally be playing this class, not sure which path I'll use yet, but I really want to play this.

On a somewhat related note, I was wondering if you guys could help me, you see I'm GMing a 5e campaign at the moment and one of my players wants to be able to imbue spirits into weapons, and channel abilities via them. What he was requesting reminded me of the Occult Path for this brew. So we tried to modify the path features to match with what we wanted. However I'm only a starting GM, I'm...worried that this idea would be unbalanced or would ruin the class in some way, I'm also not sure if a class that does what I am after even exists. (which it probably does)

So I don't high jack the thread, I'll post my idea into a spoiler tag and hope that someone from here will respond to me via PM.
Bind Weapon: Starting at 3rd level you can bind a vestige to a weapon (or item) of your choice. This ritual takes 1 hour to compete, and after completion the weapon can be shunted to an extra dimensional space and re summoned as a bonus action, it disappears if it moves more than 5ft away from you.

You must be wielding said weapon to access the abilities of your vestige. However the affects of bad pacts persist.

Weapon Casting: Starting at 3/7rd level you cast your ranged spells (other than cantrips) as an additional action after a successful melee attack, However the spells range is limited to that target.

7th or higher Your weapon is considered magical for the purposes of overcoming damage resistance and armour.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, I hope you don't feel it was a waste of time.

Just gonna offer my two cents. Firstly, that weapon casting ability is a bit out of hand. When balancing for something like this, try to find a matching analogue for comparison. Eldritch Knights(fighter subclass) get the same feature at level 7, but exclusively for cantrips. Additionally, from a fun perspective tying your weapon to cantrips means you can use that power without limits, all day long.

Speaking of, when it comes to "souls into weapons" flavor, you can reflavor most any class with a big focus on boosting weapon strikes. Eldritch Knight, Paladin, and even Rogue(yes) can be reflavored with some writing.

With that out of the way, I think your strongest option is a somewhat modified version of the Sealed Fate, since that already has a strong focus on martial combat. I was thinking of 2 possibilities here. Admittedly, this is not balanced either, but hear me out. A typical one handed weapon is gonna do 1d8(4.5) + 5(maxed attribute) which comes out to 9.5 damage. Adding in mods like a fighting style, that would go up to about 11 damage. Maybe have it so that at level 7, you lose extra attack. In exchange, you get 3d6 extra psychic damage. At 13th you get +cha as normal. This would only apply to your bound weapon(no dual wielding bonus sorry). Now for funsies, let him cast a spell into a weapon once per long rest. Once per day, he can unleash the spell when he hits with a melee attack, allowing no save if it's dex based. This is strong and might be OP, but eh..once per day.

[Mith]

Hi!

I have been following this project off and on for a while, with naught to contribute since I have no expertise with regards to homebrewing. I would really like to implement this into my setting at some point, potentially in the form of a Venca Cult, with Venca being an Uber Vestige that cannot be bound (Perhaps a high level ritual to compare to the 20th level Channel Divinity of Clerics for those with 9th level vestiges?)

Anyways, for creating Binder Cultists, what would you suggest for doing Binder NPCs? Would refluffing the available NPC classes with a few abilities based on specific abilities of the vestigies work? I ask because I have heard of concerns for using PCs against a party, since the design philosophy of PCs vs. NPCs are very different.

[Submortimer]

Hi!

I have been following this project off and on for a while, with naught to contribute since I have no expertise with regards to homebrewing. I would really like to implement this into my setting at some point, potentially in the form of a Venca Cult, with Venca being an Uber Vestige that cannot be bound (Perhaps a high level ritual to compare to the 20th level Channel Divinity of Clerics for those with 9th level vestiges?)

Anyways, for creating Binder Cultists, what would you suggest for doing Binder NPCs? Would refluffing the available NPC classes with a few abilities based on specific abilities of the vestigies work? I ask because I have heard of concerns for using PCs against a party, since the design philosophy of PCs vs. NPCs are very different.


I mean, that's only kind of Ironic, considering Scare and I are writers for the Middle Finger of Vecna.

If you're going to create Vestige using cultists, I would pick out an NPC foe from the Monster Manual and slap an appropriate vestige on them. Easy and modular.

If you're going for the big, bad cult leader, Occult Fate is the way to go. That's essentially what they were designed to be.

[Mith]

Sounds good. I would think that most binders that arise would be closer to a one trick, low level binder anyways, so that would work.

Hadn't noticed the similarities between the idea and your blog. :smallsmile: Was going more by the fact that if Venca is the god of secrets, then Binders would be the perfect domain for him. Plus if I feel like porting something similar to the Teeth of Dahlver Nar (http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/dahlver-nar), the Eye and Hand of Venca could fit in with that quite well.

[Twelvetrees]

So. I think I last posted on this four months ago. :smalleek:

My apologies for the delay. This will be an attempt to make up for that.



Renegotiation. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose to perform a the ritual of binding again to renegotiate any of the bargains you have made earlier in the day. This allows you to expel a bound vestige early and bind another in its place. When you choose to renegotiate your pacts, you can expel as many vestiges as you wish, and bind a number of vestiges whose combined level is no more than half your binder level (rounded up).


I'm a little confused here. What is the intent of this? As an example, let's use a 6th level Binder. They have two level 3 vestiges bound. Using Renegotiation, they expel one of these. What can they bind now? Another level 3? Nothing, because the vestige they keep is half their level?

The first option causes some issues at higher levels, like exchanging a lower-level vestige for a higher-level one, while the second option makes the Binder weaker after renegotiating.




MINOR SPIRITS
Binding a Vestige is the culmination of years of study and practice in both summoning magic and possession. As such, a binder can use the runoff magical energy from his Pact Magic to bind weaker spirits and beings into his service with little to no risk. These creatures serve many uses for the binder, acting as familliars, bodyguards, weapons, and armor.

At 2nd level, you perform a ritual which binds a Minor Spirit to your service, selected from the list below. The spirit manifests itself, hovering around you (though never impeding you). Though it has a visible form, it is not a creature and cannot be targeted or damaged in any way. While that spirit is active, you gain use of any powers or abilities it grants. You may use a bonus action to Dismiss or Summon your Minor Spirit, causing it's visible from to vanish, but you only access it's powers while it is manifested.

You may bind one additional minor spirit your service at 5th level, 10th level, 14th level, and 18th level. You may have one active spirit at a time, and you may use your bonus action to switch between them. At 10th level, you may have two spirits active at once. Any time you gain a level in the Binder class, you may dismiss you bind with any minor spirit you have and select a new minor spirit.


Is it meant to be part of the design that a 5th level Binder could have an Imp active and use Hex, then switch to a Lantern and use Bless?




TRUSTED VESTIGE
Starting at 6th level, you begin to form a stronger relationship with a particular vestige. This vestige will respond more readily to your summons, and is more likely to obey without attempting to subvert the bargain. Choose one vestige that you have previously summoned and remained bound to for a continuous period of no less than 24 hours. You have advantage on your charisma check when binding with that vestige.


Can this vestige be changed at when you gain levels?




TWISTED FATE

Enhanced Unnatural Attack
At 13th level, you enhance your unarmed strikes with a strange deformity, chosen from the following list:

Corded Muscle. The muscles on your limbs tighten into thick, taut fibers. When you hit a creature with your unarmed strike, you may use your bonus action to automatically shove the creature you hit.
Elasticity. Your limbs are stretchy and swing somewhat loose. Your unarmed strikes gain Reach.
Poison Gland. You grow a poisonous gland inside your chest, and a number of stingers about your body. On a critical hit with your unarmed strike, you deal an additional 1d8 poison damage.



What is the intent here with automatically shoving? Bonus Action to shove? Or Bonus Action to use the effects of a successful shove?




OCCULT FATE

SHARE VESTIGE
Starting at 7th level, As an action you can bind your Extra Vestige to another willing host (that is not a binder) that you can see within 30 feet. This host uses your binder level, spell attack bonus, and vestige save DC for any abilities granted by this vestige. A host that is not a binder always forges a Poor pact with a vestige. If you are already bound to your Extra Vestige, you can transfer the vestige to a willing host or back to yourself as an action.


Does this count as a use of Extra Vestige? Does Extra Vestige have to be active in order to use this?




Pixie
This tiny, capricious spirit is just as flighty as its namesake. Born from the magic of nature and the woods, a Pixie manifests as a tiny, Butterfly-winged humanoid. While active, you gain the following abilities:

You gain the Minor Illusion cantrip
You can cast Disguise Self without using a spell slot
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your pixie fire a poisonous dart as a ranged spell attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. A creature hit by this dart take 1d10 poison damage and gains the poisoned condition until the start of your next turn.



Why is the Pixie's damage so high compared to all the other Minor Spirits?




Cherub
A spirit of grace and divine favor, a cherub manifests as a small, feather-winged humanoid with decidedly pretty or cute features. While active, a Cherub grants the following abilities:

You gain the Sacred Flame cantrip
You may cast Prayer of Healing without using a spell slot. Once you use this ability, you must take a short or long rest before you can do so again.
As a bonus action on your turn, you may have your cherub fire an arrow from it's golden bow as a ranged weapon attack at a creature you can see within 60 feet. On a hit, this arrow deals 1d4 piercing damage.



Is it intentional that this allows a second level character to cast a second level spell? And why is the Cherub's bonus action attack so low damage?

Also, it might be a good idea to have the spells granted by the Minor Spirits that affect hit points to gain higher level affects as the Binder grows in level. Otherwise, using things like the Hell Hound's Burning Hands at higher levels becomes much less useful.



I'll add more later today.

[Scarce]

I'm finally working on the PDF for this, and I might make a new post when I'm done, since I've been consolidating some small changes in the PDF.



I'm a little confused here. What is the intent of this? As an example, let's use a 6th level Binder. They have two level 3 vestiges bound. Using Renegotiation, they expel one of these. What can they bind now? Another level 3? Nothing, because the vestige they keep is half their level?

The first option causes some issues at higher levels, like exchanging a lower-level vestige for a higher-level one, while the second option makes the Binder weaker after renegotiating.

You can rebind a 3rd level vestige after expelling one. The mechanics here aren't too crazy: it's just swapping some vestiges you have bound on a short rest.



Is it meant to be part of the design that a 5th level Binder could have an Imp active and use Hex, then switch to a Lantern and use Bless?

Yup. It will take a couple of turns to pull that off, because you don't have the actions to cast both spells on one turn, but that's totally fine.



Can this vestige be changed at when you gain levels?

You can in the current PDF, but not in the post.



What is the intent here with automatically shoving? Bonus Action to shove? Or Bonus Action to use the effects of a successful shove?

The intent is to make a shove attempt.



Does this count as a use of Extra Vestige? Does Extra Vestige have to be active in order to use this?

It does count as a use of extra vestige, but it doesn't really matter whether you activate Extra Vestige first, or this first, since you can interchange them.



Why is the Pixie's damage so high compared to all the other Minor Spirits?

Really good question. I cut the poisoned condition thing from the PDF already, since it seemed way too powerful.



Is it intentional that this allows a second level character to cast a second level spell? And why is the Cherub's bonus action attack so low damage?

I can't see a solid reason for either thing. I wonder if there's a more appropriate spell we could replace it with.



Also, it might be a good idea to have the spells granted by the Minor Spirits that affect hit points to gain higher level affects as the Binder grows in level. Otherwise, using things like the Hell Hound's Burning Hands at higher levels becomes much less useful.

I would agree with you, were it not the fact that all these are bonus action abilities. It's something you can do every round in addition to your normal action, so consider that expanded damage as just an addition to cantrip damage. Is +1d8 damage ever going to be not useful?Because it's not competing with any other damage-dealing effect, it doesn't need to be that high to be attactive.

[Twelvetrees]

I would agree with you, were it not the fact that all these are bonus action abilities. It's something you can do every round in addition to your normal action, so consider that expanded damage as just an addition to cantrip damage. Is +1d8 damage ever going to be not useful?Because it's not competing with any other damage-dealing effect, it doesn't need to be that high to be attactive.

Wait, I'm confused. Are things like the Imp's Hex, the Lantern's Bless, the Will-o'-the-Wisp's Faerie Fire and such supposed to be cast as bonus actions? I assumed they were cast as normal, which is why I thought improved damage for spells that scaled would be good. The specific examples I was thinking of were the Blade Spirit's Spiritual Weapon, the Hell Hound's Burning Hands, and the Cherub's Prayer of Healing. None of them will scale appropriately as the Binder gains levels.

Edit: I'm guessing you've seen this already, but there's a very minor misspelling in Suppress Sign (right now it's Supress)

[Scarce]

Wait, I'm confused. Are things like the Imp's Hex, the Lantern's Bless, the Will-o'-the-Wisp's Faerie Fire and such supposed to be cast as bonus actions? I assumed they were cast as normal, which is why I thought improved damage for spells that scaled would be good. The specific examples I was thinking of were the Blade Spirit's Spiritual Weapon, the Hell Hound's Burning Hands, and the Cherub's Prayer of Healing. None of them will scale appropriately as the Binder gains levels.

Edit: I'm guessing you've seen this already, but there's a very minor misspelling in Suppress Sign (right now it's Supress)
Totally my bad, I misread that part of your last post. Now, scaling the spells is interesting, but I don't see an easy way to implement this. Should I provided an entire table for this, for example?

@Spelling Errors: I'm catching massive amounts of spelling errors, grammatical errors, repeated words -- the works. Everything for the PDF goes into a word processor and gets re-read by me personally, so it's going to be necessary to re-post the final version when the PDF is complete. This is partially because I tweaked the chassis, and partially because I had to reword entire paragraphs in some instances.

[Twelvetrees]

Totally my bad, I misread that part of your last post. Now, scaling the spells is interesting, but I don't see an easy way to implement this. Should I provided an entire table for this, for example?

@Spelling Errors: I'm catching massive amounts of spelling errors, grammatical errors, repeated words -- the works. Everything for the PDF goes into a word processor and gets re-read by me personally, so it's going to be necessary to re-post the final version when the PDF is complete. This is partially because I tweaked the chassis, and partially because I had to reword entire paragraphs in some instances.

My first thought is to avoid making this any more complicated than it is already. 5th edition is meant for ease of play, so the less complicated the better. They could be replaced with non-scaling spells, such as Alarm for the Hell Hound, Feather Fall for the Cherub (maybe at-will?) and something else for the Blade Spirit (Color Spray?).

If that doesn't work, a table is likely necessary.

Edit: Could we add something at the end? Like so: This spell deals damage as if you cast it using a spell slot equal to half your level, rounding up. This spell level can never exceed 9.

[Submortimer]

Scarce correctly answered most 9f the questions here, but I'll add in a couple of things:



Is it meant to be part of the design that a 5th level Binder could have an Imp active and use Hex, then switch to a Lantern and use Bless?


While yes, you can cast the spell and then switch to another Spirit during the spell's duration, you still need to follow all of the standard rules for spellcasting, the operative one here being Concentration. You can't have both spells active at once, because both require concentration.

Also, the intent is that spells cast Via spirits have their normal casting times and durations, just like any other spell cast without a spell slot.



What is the intent here with automatically shoving? Bonus Action to shove? Or Bonus Action to use the effects of a successful shove?


It was my understanding that the second interpretation was correct (gain the benefits of shoving without a contest), but if it is different the wording needs to be changed.



Why is the Pixie's damage so high compared to all the other Minor Spirits?


Because it is poison damage, which is (aside from nonmagical physical damage) the most resisted/immune type of damage in the game.

My reasoning comes from Cantrip design. If we assume that the standard cantrip with no special riders that requires a ranged spell attack deals d10 damage (like Fire Bolt), then we can extrapolate what the damage of an ability should be based on the different effects it has, and how common resistance is to its damage type.

Poison Spray, though close range(which makes it weaker than fire bolt), is a saving throw spell (which makes it a bit stronger than an attack roll spell), yet it's damage die is still a d12. It stands to reason that the damage die is higher because poison resistance is available even to level one characters, so long as they are dwarves.



Is it intentional that this allows a second level character to cast a second level spell? And why is the Cherub's bonus action attack so low damage?


1. I missed that, honestly. I like using Prayer of healing as the healing spell that I could give to a character who shouldnt be a healer because it's not a direct combat benefit like Cure Wounds.

2. It's magical piercing damage, so almost no one resists it. Also, It's a ranged weapon attack: At the beginning of the Minor Spirits section, it states that if your minor spirit can make a ranged weapon attack, you add your Charisma modifier to the damage roll.



Also, it might be a good idea to have the spells granted by the Minor Spirits that affect hit points to gain higher level affects as the Binder grows in level. Otherwise, using things like the Hell Hound's Burning Hands at higher levels becomes much less useful.


I wouldn't mind this, but it would require some balancing.

[Twelvetrees]

Alright, more thoughts incoming.

Using Zahn's suggested scale, I'm taking a look at the second level vestiges. (And yes, this is from the previous thread)

@twelve thank you for the fantastic in-depth insight of the 1st level vestiges! when put under the microscope it is certainly an interesting point that a binder with first level vestiges will likely bind only the combat-focused vestiges, as well as 1-2 others depending on the adventure's context, but I contend that vestiges rated 4 for power needn't be rated merely for what they could do in combat. If I could suggest an improvement on your rating system for comparing a given vestige to it's given level it would look a little more like this:


Combat prowess: A
Social aptitude: B
Exploration potential: C
Ease of Understanding: X
Only one bound: Y

*the different letters representing numeric variables/ranking, determined as appropriate.

this way we could evaluate a vestige's power using a more similar model of criteria that 5th edition evaluates itself. we could also compile such a review/analysis of the vestiges and link it in/with/alongside the codex, it's like part of a "5e Binder Guide" :smallsmile:


AYM

Combat prowess: B
This bumps AC up by 2 to 4 points, depending on subclass, and Golden Halo provides some good offense.
Golden Plate could bump AC up even more, but it doesn't offset enough of the penalties to be very attractive. Disadvantage on Dex saves in particular is never good.

Social aptitude: C
Golden-Fisted Rule can be useful, but Intimidation generally means the conversation is breaking down already.

Exploration potential: B
Shatter and Ruinous Strike sure help to break obstacles.

Ease of Understanding: B
Golden Plate requires looking up the effects of not being proficient with armor and realizing that the effects are quite bad.

Only one bound: B
You've got a little utility and are okay in combat.


HAAGENTI

Combat prowess: A
You've ways to deal damage in almost every feature.

Social aptitude: Y
Nothing here for that.

Exploration potential: Y
Again, nothing here.

Ease of Understanding: A
Everything makes sense.

Only one bound: A
Definite fighter feel.


IPOS

Combat prowess: C
Claws are on par with most weapons, and Rend is once a rest. Your AC and hp aren't exactly high. The disadvantage on an enemy's save is nice.

Social aptitude: Y
Nothing here.

Exploration potential: B
You can see things others cannot and you're good on other planes.

Ease of Understanding: A
Everything makes sense.

Only one bound: X
Once Rend and Ipos's Influence are used, you don't have many options and aren't that powerful.


LERAJE

Combat prowess: A
This plays right into the Binder's strengths. Stay out of melee, hide, and deal damage

Social aptitude: Y
Nothing here.

Exploration potential: C
Stealth and that's it. Could be a B, if stealth plays a big role in the game.

Ease of Understanding: B
Leraje's Quiver and New Moon Arrows require you to keep track of abilities.

Only one bound: A
Leraje lacks only in social aptitude, but so do many classes.


MALPHAS

Combat prowess: B
Sneak Attack is always good, but that's all you get. Turnfeather's Skill has potential to be useful.

Social aptitude: Y
Nothing here.

Exploration potential: A
This is amazing for scouting and exploration. Bird's Eye viewing and the ability to turn invisible? Yes please.

Ease of Understanding: A
Everything makes sense.

Only one bound: A
Good at exploration and not bad at combat.

[Scarce]

At the beginning of the Minor Spirits section, it states that if your minor spirit can make a ranged weapon attack, you add your Charisma modifier to the damage roll.
This is something I'd like to petition to change. It's really difficult to tell when a minor spirit has a weapon attack, as opposed to something which merely resembles a weapon attack, and it isn't something you should have to keep track of anyway. So, big favor: could you remove this and re-balance the relevant damages? Don't bother modifying the post, just leave it here or send it over to me.

@Twelvetrees: Have you been playtesting the binder? If so, I'm looking for more detailed observations of the features as they act in a game. I've been changing and tweaking vestiges for a while throughout our playtest, and it's yielded some pretty good results. Big overviews are fine for a guide to the class, but are less helpful to the build process right now.

@Ipos: Should I remove 1/short from Rend? I'm leaning towards making more of the melee features of vestiges essentially at-will.

[Twelvetrees]

@Twelvetrees: Have you been playtesting the binder? If so, I'm looking for more detailed observations of the features as they act in a game. I've been changing and tweaking vestiges for a while throughout our playtest, and it's yielded some pretty good results. Big overviews are fine for a guide to the class, but are less helpful to the build process right now.

@Ipos: Should I remove 1/short from Rend? I'm leaning towards making more of the melee features of vestiges essentially at-will.

Unfortunately not. Not much opportunity as a DM. Good to know what's helpful and what's not. What would your suggestions be for helping with the build?

Rend could likely be at-will. Its reliance on two hits to trigger should keep it in line.

[Scarce]

Unfortunately not. Not much opportunity as a DM. Good to know what's helpful and what's not. What would your suggestions be for helping with the build?


I think specific little insights, like the fact that Iops runs out of options after using Rend, are the most helpful. If the features all work correctly, each vestige level should be roughly equal in power level, and nothing should be abhorrently broken, but there are probably tons of little things which don't work as written, or are far more powerful than they appear to be. If you keep digging through the class, applying your insights to things, I think you'll find plenty of things that could use tweaking.

I just finished tweaking the subclasses, and Submortimer just sent me a few tweaks on the Minor Spirits, so I think the vestiges are where we should be spending our time (in order of decreasing level, since I've personally playtested all of the vestiges 4th level or lower, and a handful of the 5th level vestiges.)

[Twelvetrees]

I think specific little insights, like the fact that Iops runs out of options after using Rend, are the most helpful. If the features all work correctly, each vestige level should be roughly equal in power level, and nothing should be abhorrently broken, but there are probably tons of little things which don't work as written, or are far more powerful than they appear to be. If you keep digging through the class, applying your insights to things, I think you'll find plenty of things that could use tweaking.

I just finished tweaking the subclasses, and Submortimer just sent me a few tweaks on the Minor Spirits, so I think the vestiges are where we should be spending our time (in order of decreasing level, since I've personally playtested all of the vestiges 4th level or lower, and a handful of the 5th level vestiges.)

Good to know. I'll take a look at the higher level vestiges and see what happens if I make a few builds.

[Scarce]

Hey guys! The PDF is coming together (and it's massively long.) Any ideas as to what I should title the whole thing? It hardly seems fitting to call it The Binder if I include other things, like items, NPC stats, and feats, but it also doesn't seem right to call it the Tome of Magic. Thoughts?

[Mith]

If it wasn't already a Tomelock item, I would use "Book of Shadows"

I think of Binders as representing lost lore in a lot of ways, so here are some ideas that could be used/spark some creativity. Perhaps you may want to combine two of them.

Tome of Oblivion

Voices from the Void

Murmured Memories

Book of Bindings

[Scarce]

Tome of Oblivion

Voices from the Void

Murmured Memories

Book of Bindings

Ooh! I like 'em.

By the way, here's some items I made for the final release:

Chime of Suppression
Wondrous item, uncommon (requires attunement by a creature with the Soul Binding feature)
You can ring this bell as a bonus action to disrupt one vestige bound to yourself. For 1 minute, that vestige is suppressed: you do not gain any of the vestige's features, not do you show the vestige's Physical Sign or Influence.

Teeth of Dahlver-Nar
Wondrous item, rare, (requires attunement)
These teeth are mysterious in origin, and are inextricably linked to the vestige Dahlver-Nar. To attune to one, you must remove your own tooth, and put a tooth of Dahlver-Nar in its place, which deals you 1 point of damage. You can then cast the spell associated with that tooth at will. You can choose your spellcasting ability for these spells, but once made, you cannot change this selection.
There are a number of known teeth, each associated with a particular vestige:
Acererak: false life
Amon: burning hands
Andromalius: hideous laughter
Eligor: chromatic orb
Kas: inflict wounds
Leraje: hunter's mark
Otiax: fog cloud
Primus: command
Ronove: feather fall
Savnok: shield
Tenebrous: darkness

Universal Seal
Wondrous item, uncommon (requires attunement by a creature with the Soul Binding feature)
This seal is sewn into silks and painted with magical paints. Functionally, it is an amalgamation of many seals, reusing the most common geometries to all vestige seals. When you negotiate your pacts following a long rest, you use the universal seal to summon all your vestiges at once (requiring only 1 minute, no matter how many vestiges you intend to bind,) and make a single Charisma check against the highest Pact DC. On a success, you make a good pact with all of your vestiges. On a failure, you make a poor pact with all your vestiges.

Vestige Phylactery
Wondrous Item, very rare (requires attunement by a creature with the Soul Binding feature)
This ornately carved cube houses a vestige. When you negotiate your pacts following a long rest, you can bind a single vestige to this phylactery. In a ritual requiring 1 round concentration, you can expel one vestige you are bound to and exchange it with the vestige held in the phylactery. After binding this vestige, you cannot use any of its powers or abilities for 1d4 rounds. A vestige bound is this way always forms a poor pact.

[Mith]

Ooh! I like 'em.

Yay, I helped! :smallbiggrin:

I really like this project. I just can only really contribute to fluff, and not any crunch.

[Submortimer]

Yay, I helped! :smallbiggrin:

I really like this project. I just can only really contribute to fluff, and not any crunch.

That's more than alright, fluff is what we need now.

That being said, here are a few more magic items:

Soul Lens
Wondrous item, Rare (+1), Very Rare (+2) or Legendary (+3) (Requires attunement by a creature with the Soul Binding feature)
This deceptively simple looking sapphire and gold monocle is an invaluable asset to any pact-maker, augmenting and enhancing a bound vestige's abilities. While worn, you gain a +1 magical bonus to all attack rolls and saving throw DCs for your vestige abilities.

Spirit Stone
Wondrous item, Rare (Requires attunement by a creature with the Minor Spirit feature)This ornately carved, fist-sized tetrahedron seems to be made of a form of precious stone, though it is impossible to tell which. By performing a ritual over the course of a short rest, you may bind one of your Minor Spirits into the Spirit Stone; once done, the stone floats nearby, and the spirits manifests itself around it. While bound to the stone, that spirit does not count against your number of active spirits. You may expel and bind a new spirit into the stone by performing the ritual again.

Sealed Athame
Magic Weapon(any sword or dagger) Rare
This wicked-looking blade is cut from black, volcanic glass, and is covered in small, precisely-carved vestige seals. When wielded by a creature who is bound to a vestige, this weapon grants a +1 magical bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it. Additionally, it may be used to augment a vestige binding ritual, granting advantage on the binding check while wielded.

[Mith]

This probably could be worded better, but I wanted to get the idea down for review. I picture it as a tool for a low level cult to guarantee success with a binding using animal or human sacrifice, while a more powerful binder would use the mirror to divine or block divinations. Let me know what you think.

Mirror of the Void

Artifact, Requires Attunment to any creature with the Soul Binding Feature A large disk of obsidian that floats in midair. When not in use, the Mirror will float in the shadow of the user. If the user wishes to hide the Mirror, they can use an action to dismiss the Mirror, or conjure it into existence. True Sight will still reveal the Mirror's presence behind the user. Due to it's shadow like nature, the Mirror cannot be conjured in any region where the user's shadow is diminished (example: high noon sun, bright illumination surrounding the caster that prevents one from casting a shadow.)

A creature thrown onto the mirror is bound to the surface and makes a DC 20 CON check or suffers 4d10 damage, save for half. If the creature is reduced to 0 hit points by the mirror, their corpse is disintegrated and absorbed by the mirror. Only a Wish or Miracle spell can resurrect any creature slain by the Mirror. If a corpse is placed on the mirror, it is automatically destroyed.

If a creature is absorbed the Mirror, the user can do two things:

1) Reduce the Vestige Pact DC for binding a Vestige by the Cha modifier of the creature sacrificed to the Mirror. More than one creature can be used, but the Cha modifier of all sacrifices after the first sacrifice is reduced by 1. Any sacrificed creature with a Cha modifier less than 1 are treated as having a modifier of 0.5 (so two sacrifices of creatures with Cha modifiers less than 1 are needed to reduce the DC by 1)

2) The Mirror can be used as a divination focus. 3 times a long rest, a caster that sacrifices one vestige binding can gain access to a divination spell/block a divination spell of the same level as the vestige slot used (so 1st level vestiges slot trades for 1st level divination spell). The casting time is 10 min/spell level, and sacrifices 1d8 hit points/level (CON save for half). Up to half of the hit points sacrificed during this ritual can be taken from the creatures sacrificed to the mirror prior to the ritual. Hit points lost this way can only be recovered through Hit Dice and rest (I use 1+Con mod/long rest rule. So this might have to be changed). Slots do not combine to gain access to a higher level spells. Vestige slots are regained on a long rest.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Hey, I love your Work as the Palm and was wondering if we can ever expect to see this in PDF form, or hit the blog? One of my friends loves warlocks-as-binders and dislikes the DND warlock, and i'd like to add it to my dropbox collection of approved homebrew for him, having a pdf of it would really help it's accessibility for our group.

[Submortimer]

Hey, I love your Work as the Palm and was wondering if we can ever expect to see this in PDF form, or hit the blog? One of my friends loves warlocks-as-binders and dislikes the DND warlock, and i'd like to add it to my dropbox collection of approved homebrew for him, having a pdf of it would really help it's accessibility for our group.

Keep an eye out. It was always @Scarce's intention to build a PDF for it, and when it does drop(and believe me, it's coming), we'll host it on the MFoV blog.

[Scarce]

can ever expect to see this in PDF form, or hit the blog?

I'm 44 pages in, and it's looking awesome. Longest PDF we've ever done. If he's really excited to play it, it'll be up June 1st on our Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=3009550&ty=h), and it'll release a few weeks later on Middle Finger of Vecna. I'll also be doing a new binder post here to consolidate all the changes that have been made in the service of a single, cohesive draft.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Excellent, thanks guys, your material is always pretty awesome

[Scarce]

This probably could be worded better, but I wanted to get the idea down for review. I picture it as a tool for a low level cult to guarantee success with a binding using animal or human sacrifice, while a more powerful binder would use the mirror to divine or block divinations. Let me know what you think.

Mirror of the Void

Alright, I just around to reading this and, no offense, but it's a bit of a mess. You've laid out some pretty complex rules for once you've absorbed a creature (and they might actually be balanced, that's unimportant -- it's a problem because it's too complex to use.) And complexity I can deal with by rewriting the mechanics to achieve the same goals with simpler steps, bu the split focus between divination and binding bonuses still makes this seem disoriented. Moreover, it doesn't seem precisely like something worthy of being an artifact. Divination is weak, and you don't suffer any mechanical drawbacks if you fail a binding check, so bonuses to that basically constitute a ribbon mechanic.

All things said, I think (for now) I'm going to take a pass on this item. We can work on it with a different focus, and once it's done, I'll try to find page space in the PDF.

[Wulfskadi]

Awesome class. Pixie ability should require a saving through though. Cause automatic poison is OP and nothing else has it in 5e. (trust me I read the monster manual 3 times)

[Mith]

Alright, I just around to reading this and, no offense, but it's a bit of a mess.

Fair enough. I expected a response like this. As I said in my post, I was more just trying to get the idea in writing and out of my head.

The idea of it was an artifact that enabled a low level cult using it to gain power through using sacrifices to ensure good pacts, which is not really a strong trait, especially since the Athame posted earlier gives straight up Advantage. I just wasn't wanting to step on that and I also was thinking in terms of a long binding ritual. This first ability was likely more something for an NPC rather than a PC. The second ability was to add onto the idea of hidden truths and secrets, allowing one to hide from their enemies and find out things they wish to know by consulting vestiges. The HP cost was more because I already had a disintegration effect (due to the nature of Oblivion) attached to the Mirror, so I was working from that. If one added Divine Portent from the Diviner subclass that could help, but that probably steps on too many toes.

[Scarce]

Awesome class. Pixie ability should require a saving through though. Cause automatic poison is OP and nothing else has it in 5e. (trust me I read the monster manual 3 times)
I cut the poisoned condition altogether from the pixie in my newest draft. Even with a save, it's way more powerful than the other minor spirits

[The-Magic-Sword]

Joined the Patreon, looking forward to this and lots of other great stuff :smallbiggrin:

[Spiriah]

Hey, guys. Been a while since I set foot in here! Not exactly sure what led me to drift away, but I like what you've all done with the class. Looks very polished.

Anyway, I come bearing gifts! Have a Buer:

BUER
Grandmother Huntress
5th Level Vestige

Special Requirement: Buer’s seal must be drawn outdoors.

Physical Sign: Your feet turn into satyr’s hooves, giving you a curious tip-toeing gait. These hooves prevent you from wearing normal boots or shoes, but magic footwear reshapes to fit you.

Influence: If you make a poor pact with Buer, she influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:
- Flaw. I am plagued by momentary memory lapses, occasionally even forgetting the names of friends or family members, if only for an instant.
- Personality Trait. I abhor the needless death of living creatures besides animals and vermin. In addition, I do not attack creatures who are unconscious or otherwise incapacitated.

Abilities:

Buer’s Knowledge: You gain proficiency in Medicine, Nature, or Survival. You can change this skill proficiency over a short rest.

Buer’s Purity: You become immune to disease and poison. Binding Buer also cures you of any disease or poison currently afflicting you.

One of the following two features, not sure which to include. The Delay aura is interesting, but possibly a little complicated. This is one of the two things I mainly want input on.

Delay Disease and Poison: You project an aura in a 30ft radius that offers protection against poisons and diseases. Any creature of your choice within the aura affected by disease or poison suffers no ill effects as long as they remain within the radius, though they continue to make saves as normal. When the creature leaves the radius, it immediately suffers the effects of any failed saves against a delayed disease or poison.

or

Prevent Disease and Poison: You project an aura in a 30ft radius that offers protection against poisons and diseases. Friendly creatures within the aura have resistance to poison damage, as well as advantage on saving throws against disease and poison.

Fast Healing: At the start of each of your turns, as long as you have at least one hit point, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus.

Healing Gift: You can cast the Spare the Dying cantrip at will. Additionally, you gain a number of charges of healing energy equal to your Charisma mod plus half your Binder level. By spending one charge, you can cast Cure Wounds as a first level spell without a spell slot or verbal components. You may spend additional charges when you use this ability, with each additional charge increasing the spell’s level by one, to a maximum of fifth level.
You regain two charges of this ability when you finish a short rest, and you regain all expended charges when you finish a long rest.

^ This is the second main thing I'm looking for input on. How should the number of charges scale? With the current system, it starts at about 8-9 charges, and scales up to about 15 by level 20.

The reason I set this as a 5th level vestige rather than 4th is because immunity to disease and poison is a 10th-level monk ability, and I wanted to put this roughly in line with that. Anyway, suggestions for changes, balance related or otherwise, are appreciated.

[Scarce]

Hey, guys. Been a while since I set foot in here! Not exactly sure what led me to drift away, but I like what you've all done with the class. Looks very polished.

Anyway, I come bearing gifts! Have a Buer:

BUER
Grandmother Huntress
5th Level Vestige

Special Requirement: Buer’s seal must be drawn outdoors.

Physical Sign: Your feet turn into satyr’s hooves, giving you a curious tip-toeing gait. These hooves prevent you from wearing normal boots or shoes, but magic footwear reshapes to fit you.

Influence: If you make a poor pact with Buer, she influences your personality in one or both of the following ways:
- Flaw. I am plagued by momentary memory lapses, occasionally even forgetting the names of friends or family members, if only for an instant.
- Personality Trait. I abhor the needless death of living creatures besides animals and vermin. In addition, I do not attack creatures who are unconscious or otherwise incapacitated.

Abilities:

Buer’s Knowledge: You gain proficiency in Medicine, Nature, or Survival. You can change this skill proficiency over a short rest.

Buer’s Purity: You become immune to disease and poison. Binding Buer also cures you of any disease or poison currently afflicting you.

One of the following two features, not sure which to include. The Delay aura is interesting, but possibly a little complicated. This is one of the two things I mainly want input on.

Delay Disease and Poison: You project an aura in a 30ft radius that offers protection against poisons and diseases. Any creature of your choice within the aura affected by disease or poison suffers no ill effects as long as they remain within the radius, though they continue to make saves as normal. When the creature leaves the radius, it immediately suffers the effects of any failed saves against a delayed disease or poison.

or

Prevent Disease and Poison: You project an aura in a 30ft radius that offers protection against poisons and diseases. Friendly creatures within the aura have resistance to poison damage, as well as advantage on saving throws against disease and poison.

Fast Healing: At the start of each of your turns, as long as you have at least one hit point, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus.

Healing Gift: You can cast the Spare the Dying cantrip at will. Additionally, you gain a number of charges of healing energy equal to your Charisma mod plus half your Binder level. By spending one charge, you can cast Cure Wounds as a first level spell without a spell slot or verbal components. You may spend additional charges when you use this ability, with each additional charge increasing the spell’s level by one, to a maximum of fifth level.
You regain two charges of this ability when you finish a short rest, and you regain all expended charges when you finish a long rest.

^ This is the second main thing I'm looking for input on. How should the number of charges scale? With the current system, it starts at about 8-9 charges, and scales up to about 15 by level 20.

The reason I set this as a 5th level vestige rather than 4th is because immunity to disease and poison is a 10th-level monk ability, and I wanted to put this roughly in line with that. Anyway, suggestions for changes, balance related or otherwise, are appreciated.

Oh, another vestige. *sigh*

Spiriah, I don't want to seem like a jerk, but I've already committed the entire class to a PDF, and I don't have space to slot in another vestige without extreme effort reformatting like 30 pages. I'll probably post a revised version of the class itself at the end of the month, too, since I made so many little changes to the chassis and subclasses. If I can manage to get all the tertiary vestiges together, I'll put Buer in with them, but right now I don't think I can fit it with the core class.

[Spiriah]

Spiriah, I don't want to seem like a jerk, but I've already committed the entire class to a PDF, and I don't have space to slot in another vestige without extreme effort reformatting like 30 pages.

No problem. Besides, it probably needs a little work before it's PDF-ready, so not adding it in immediately isn't a problem. I just saw that we hadn't converted Buer from 3.5, as well as that (as far as I can tell) no vestige gives healing abilities, so I figured I'd try my hand at it.

[Scarce]

NEW THREAD! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489897-Fifth-Edition-Binder-Class-IV-Final&p=20842019)

The Binder is finally out of WIP! There's been changes to the base chassis, lots of subclass work, and the addition of feats and magic items. Go there!