Making a throw based ranger without ToB

[evnaz]

I've wanted to play a hybrid throwing/ melee character that doesn't abuse the tomb of battle (Since the Dm won't allow it) I was thinking of doing a ranger/fighter with most of these feats
TWF, Quick Draw, Point Black Shot, Brutal Throw, Power Throw, Throw Anything, far shot, power attack, Precise Shot, and either weapon focus dagger or oversized two weapon fighting

any help toning this build up would be largely appreciated

so I've narrowed it down to these feats
Quick Draw, Point Black Shot, Brutal Throw, Power Throw, far shot, power attack, Precise Shot, rapid shot
and so far it seems I'll be going fighter 2 and ranger 18

[Flickerdart]

A one-level dip into barbarian will land you the fantastic Whirling Frenzy. While frenzying, you get an extra attack at -2 to each attack you make (basically the same as Rapid Shot, and it stacks).

You should definitely have both TWF and Rapid Shot.

[FocusWolf413]

How will you get that many feats? Fighter dip?

[evnaz]

How will you get that many feats? Fighter dip?
exactly, as well as taking the twf combat style in ranger

[evnaz]

A one-level dip into barbarian will land you the fantastic Whirling Frenzy. While frenzying, you get an extra attack at -2 to each attack you make (basically the same as Rapid Shot, and it stacks).

You should definitely have both TWF and Rapid Shot.
sorry I'm still fairly new, how many attack would I get with rapid shot and whirling frenzy and a BAB of +6?

[Albions_Angel]

sorry I'm still fairly new, how many attack would I get with rapid shot and whirling frenzy and a BAB of +6?

Hmm, I believe it would go something like this. +6 mainhand attack, +4 Rapidshot, +4 Frenzy, +2 Frenzy (off the rapid shot), +4 offhand, +2 frenzy (off the offhand), +1 second mainhand (if you dont have to draw), -1 rapid shot, -1 frenzy, -3 frenzy (off rapid shot). Thats 10 attacks. On the other hand, drawing a weapons is a move...

[Zaq]

What level are you starting at? What else has your GM banned? How much access do you have to magic items, and how do you intend to deal with the fact that it's relatively difficult to get magic item bonuses on everything you want to throw?

One problem you're going to have to address is where your damage is coming from. With enough feats, it's not that hard to get a whole lot of thrown weapon attacks per turn (though you might end up at a relatively low to-hit bonus), but unless you have some kind of consistent bonus damage, those thrown attacks just aren't going to matter much. As I said, it's difficult to get magic on every item you want to throw—it's prohibitively expensive to enchant them all normally, especially if you use TWF and Rapid Shot and stuff to get lots of extra attacks per turn; you need a way of enchanting in bulk, a way of using the same weapon on multiple attacks, or a way of getting "fake" enchantments on things (like how Stormlord automatically tacks Lightning onto thrown javelins). For a feat-based bonus to damage, Power Throw is better than nothing (but again, make sure that you have a high enough bonus to actually hit even after you trade away all your to-hit), though of course it's less effective than actual Power Attack (1:1 returns instead of 2:1, and basically nothing multiplies it) and still requires extra feats. Sneak Attack is a decent source of bonus damage, but it can be hard to actually trigger it on thrown attacks (you can't flank, so you need some way of denying your foes their DEX bonus, which generally requires vision blockers like HiPS, Invisibility, or Blink, or else something that forces the flat-footed condition, like Grease; all of these are possible, but none of them are trivial).

I wouldn't bother with the whole Throw Anything/Oversized TWF thing. Just use daggers or something else designed for throwing and put those feats to better use.

Master Thrower (CWar) is a good class for throwers, of course; it doesn't solve the bonus damage problem, but the ability to attack touch AC is hugely useful.

Overall, I think we need to look at your book availability and your starting level before we can go much further. I mean, a straight-class Fighter can fairly easily pick up most of the feats you listed, but if that's all they can do, that's not going to be a very satisfying character.

[evnaz]

Hmm, I believe it would go something like this. +6 mainhand attack, +4 Rapidshot, +4 Frenzy, +2 Frenzy (off the rapid shot), +4 offhand, +2 frenzy (off the offhand), +1 second mainhand (if you dont have to draw), -1 rapid shot, -1 frenzy, -3 frenzy (off rapid shot). Thats 10 attacks. On the other hand, drawing a weapons is a move...

quick draw makes it a free action :3

[Flickerdart]

sorry I'm still fairly new, how many attack would I get with rapid shot and whirling frenzy and a BAB of +6?
A character with BAB +6 has two attacks, +6/+1.
A character with either Rapid Shot or Whirling Frenzy has three attacks, +4/+4/-1.
A character with both Rapid Shot and Whirling Frenzy has four attacks, +2/+2/+2/-3.
Two-weapon fighting then gives you another (off-hand) attack, giving you a total of five attacks, at +0/+0/+0/+0/-5.

I recommend some way of increasing your to-hit bonus so that all those attacks can actually hit something!

[evnaz]

What level are you starting at? What else has your GM banned? How much access do you have to magic items, and how do you intend to deal with the fact that it's relatively difficult to get magic item bonuses on everything you want to throw?

One problem you're going to have to address is where your damage is coming from. With enough feats, it's not that hard to get a whole lot of thrown weapon attacks per turn (though you might end up at a relatively low to-hit bonus), but unless you have some kind of consistent bonus damage, those thrown attacks just aren't going to matter much. As I said, it's difficult to get magic on every item you want to throw—it's prohibitively expensive to enchant them all normally, especially if you use TWF and Rapid Shot and stuff to get lots of extra attacks per turn; you need a way of enchanting in bulk, a way of using the same weapon on multiple attacks, or a way of getting "fake" enchantments on things (like how Stormlord automatically tacks Lightning onto thrown javelins). For a feat-based bonus to damage, Power Throw is better than nothing (but again, make sure that you have a high enough bonus to actually hit even after you trade away all your to-hit), though of course it's less effective than actual Power Attack (1:1 returns instead of 2:1, and basically nothing multiplies it) and still requires extra feats. Sneak Attack is a decent source of bonus damage, but it can be hard to actually trigger it on thrown attacks (you can't flank, so you need some way of denying your foes their DEX bonus, which generally requires vision blockers like HiPS, Invisibility, or Blink, or else something that forces the flat-footed condition, like Grease; all of these are possible, but none of them are trivial).

I wouldn't bother with the whole Throw Anything/Oversized TWF thing. Just use daggers or something else designed for throwing and put those feats to better use.

Master Thrower (CWar) is a good class for throwers, of course; it doesn't solve the bonus damage problem, but the ability to attack touch AC is hugely useful.

Overall, I think we need to look at your book availability and your starting level before we can go much further. I mean, a straight-class Fighter can fairly easily pick up most of the feats you listed, but if that's all they can do, that's not going to be a very satisfying character.
starting at level on but the campaign is most likely going to last a few years knowing the group I'm playing with,

I can use all the complete series, phb and psionics, I'm not going to get very much in terms of magical items but, I'm sure I could get a pair or two of returning daggers EDIT: I can also use the forgotten realms campaign book

[dascarletm]

I'd go, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/ Ranger 3.
Stats: Max Strength, at least 13 in Dex.
Feats:
1. Point Blank Shot
1. Brutal Throw
2. Rapid Shot
3. Quick Draw
3. Power Attack
5. Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger Bonus)
6. Power Throw

Keep taking ranger levels to gain Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting without needing high dex.

Grab feats towards gaining whichever throwing prestige class you like.

[Troacctid]

Whirling Frenzy is out, then, since we can't use Unearthed Arcana.

[Zaq]

Hmm. At level one, throwing is going to be . . . unsatisfying.

I mean, at a bare minimum, you need PBS and Precise Shot. Eating a –4 for throwing into melee is hugely not fun. That's two feats already, so unless you're a human Fighter and/or you have access to Flaws, it's basically impossible to have another feat to play with at that point. (If you aren't a human, a Fighter, or someone else with access to a bonus feat, you're not going to have Precise Shot, so you'll take a penalty after the first round goes by and the melee attackers, allies or enemies, close in.) And that's before you actually get anything that makes you good at throwing. It simply makes thrown (/ranged) attacks not take a penalty that melee attacks ignore. You don't have Quick Draw, you don't have access to bonus damage, you don't have TWF or Rapid Shot or extra attacks. You're just throwing one weapon a turn, and that's all you're doing.

A bow user would still need PBS/Precise Shot, but they're likely to have higher base damage (or at least, no worse than you have), and they have way, waaaay better range. And they don't have to spend a move action drawing their next shot, so they're more mobile than you. A melee character will likely have a bigger (two-handed) weapon (so they'll likely have bigger dice and/or 1.5× their STR to damage, which you won't have), and they won't have had to spend feats just bringing themselves up to par. And since they're very unlikely to have any way of making multiple attacks, they have their move action free, and unless you've got thrown weapons with really good range increments, that means you're not really going to be able to hit things much farther away than they are. So you're just a weapon-user with nothing special, and you're less capable than a bow user or a melee user. Now, I completely understand taking the long view and giving up a little bit of effectiveness now in pursuit of a long-term goal, but that just plain doesn't sound like a fun character to me.

It's a sad fact of the system that lots of weapon styles (TWF, bow archery, crossbow archery, thrown weapon use . . . basically anything other than using a two-hander with Power Attack, though even that takes a bit) take a long time to become effective, and thrown weapons are basically one of the most resource-intensive styles. Even after you invest in it, there's not a whole hell of a lot of payoff. But it's going to take a long time for you to get all the feats you want (and some of them don't do much until you have other feats in place—TWF or Rapid Shot won't do you much good until you get Quick Draw, for example), and like I said earlier, just having the feats isn't going to actually make you effective.

To be perfectly blunt, I wouldn't play this style of character at level 1. It's just going to take way too long before you can actually do what you want to do, and it'll be a long time after that before you can do it well. Not every character has to have game-crushing power right away, but do you really want to have to wait a minimum of four or five levels to even be competent, let alone to be excellent?

I mean, with enough houserules, you could bludgeon together something that's reasonably useful, but that's going to take your GM agreeing to make those houserules. (Rule away the penalty for shooting into melee without Precise Shot, since that's a stupid feat tax that isn't fun; rule that you get DEX to damage or some other noticeable bonus damage out of the gate; rule that magic weapons automatically return to your hand the way they do in 4e, so you can get the same item bonuses that everyone else gets without a massive struggle; rule that thrown weapons can actually do something unique that bows or melee weapons can't do, so you've got something that makes you stand out from your peers; rule that several of those long feat chains can get collapsed or eliminated entirely, so it doesn't take a million years to get your baseline in place—anything can be fixed with enough houseruling, but few GMs are willing to make as many changes as you need here.)

But yeah. You're going to be starting at a massive disadvantage, and even with everything you want in place, you're still never going to be amazing. If I were you, I would talk this over with your GM and see how much accommodation they're willing to give you, and if they aren't willing to make you decently effective without spending a million feats, I would just shelve this character idea and bring it out in a game that starts at a higher level. Not every character works in every campaign, which really sucks, but there's quite a few concepts that just plain aren't fun to play at level 1, since they can't do what you want the character to do until much later. (Sure, everyone's weaker and has fewer tricks at level 1, but there's a big difference between having reduced resources and simply not being able to do what you want the character to do.)

[evnaz]

Hmm. At level one, throwing is going to be . . . unsatisfying.

I mean, at a bare minimum, you need PBS and Precise Shot. Eating a –4 for throwing into melee is hugely not fun. That's two feats already, so unless you're a human Fighter and/or you have access to Flaws, it's basically impossible to have another feat to play with at that point. (If you aren't a human, a Fighter, or someone else with access to a bonus feat, you're not going to have Precise Shot, so you'll take a penalty after the first round goes by and the melee attackers, allies or enemies, close in.) And that's before you actually get anything that makes you good at throwing. It simply makes thrown (/ranged) attacks not take a penalty that melee attacks ignore. You don't have Quick Draw, you don't have access to bonus damage, you don't have TWF or Rapid Shot or extra attacks. You're just throwing one weapon a turn, and that's all you're doing.

A bow user would still need PBS/Precise Shot, but they're likely to have higher base damage (or at least, no worse than you have), and they have way, waaaay better range. And they don't have to spend a move action drawing their next shot, so they're more mobile than you. A melee character will likely have a bigger (two-handed) weapon (so they'll likely have bigger dice and/or 1.5× their STR to damage, which you won't have), and they won't have had to spend feats just bringing themselves up to par. And since they're very unlikely to have any way of making multiple attacks, they have their move action free, and unless you've got thrown weapons with really good range increments, that means you're not really going to be able to hit things much farther away than they are. So you're just a weapon-user with nothing special, and you're less capable than a bow user or a melee user. Now, I completely understand taking the long view and giving up a little bit of effectiveness now in pursuit of a long-term goal, but that just plain doesn't sound like a fun character to me.

It's a sad fact of the system that lots of weapon styles (TWF, bow archery, crossbow archery, thrown weapon use . . . basically anything other than using a two-hander with Power Attack, though even that takes a bit) take a long time to become effective, and thrown weapons are basically one of the most resource-intensive styles. Even after you invest in it, there's not a whole hell of a lot of payoff. But it's going to take a long time for you to get all the feats you want (and some of them don't do much until you have other feats in place—TWF or Rapid Shot won't do you much good until you get Quick Draw, for example), and like I said earlier, just having the feats isn't going to actually make you effective.

To be perfectly blunt, I wouldn't play this style of character at level 1. It's just going to take way too long before you can actually do what you want to do, and it'll be a long time after that before you can do it well. Not every character has to have game-crushing power right away, but do you really want to have to wait a minimum of four or five levels to even be competent, let alone to be excellent?

I mean, with enough houserules, you could bludgeon together something that's reasonably useful, but that's going to take your GM agreeing to make those houserules. (Rule away the penalty for shooting into melee without Precise Shot, since that's a stupid feat tax that isn't fun; rule that you get DEX to damage or some other noticeable bonus damage out of the gate; rule that magic weapons automatically return to your hand the way they do in 4e, so you can get the same item bonuses that everyone else gets without a massive struggle; rule that thrown weapons can actually do something unique that bows or melee weapons can't do, so you've got something that makes you stand out from your peers; rule that several of those long feat chains can get collapsed or eliminated entirely, so it doesn't take a million years to get your baseline in place—anything can be fixed with enough houseruling, but few GMs are willing to make as many changes as you need here.)

But yeah. You're going to be starting at a massive disadvantage, and even with everything you want in place, you're still never going to be amazing. If I were you, I would talk this over with your GM and see how much accommodation they're willing to give you, and if they aren't willing to make you decently effective without spending a million feats, I would just shelve this character idea and bring it out in a game that starts at a higher level. Not every character works in every campaign, which really sucks, but there's quite a few concepts that just plain aren't fun to play at level 1, since they can't do what you want the character to do until much later. (Sure, everyone's weaker and has fewer tricks at level 1, but there's a big difference between having reduced resources and simply not being able to do what you want the character to do.)

I could start as a pure melee character(roguish stealth kinda character) and change the play style as I gain levels, I get what you're saying that it'll take a while for my character to even be par and then not much else but, I still think it could be fun! it's all about how you play it right?

[Zaq]

I could start as a pure melee character(roguish stealth kinda character) and change the play style as I gain levels, I get what you're saying that it'll take a while for my character to even be par and then not much else but, I still think it could be fun! it's all about how you play it right?

I mean, fun is what you make of it. You certainly don't have to be all-powerful to have fun—but speaking for myself, I don't have fun unless I'm competent at what I set out to do. (At least in D&D. It's different in an intentionally bonkers game like Kobolds Ate My Baby, of course. But we're not talking about KAMB.)

I repeat, you're going to be starting at a massive disadvantage, and you aren't really going to have anything that you can do especially well (even in a vacuum, but especially compared to your comrades). If you're looking for a "roguish stealth kinda character," you're probably not going to have the skill points for it unless you go Martial Rogue (which is from Unearthed Arcana, which you don't have access to), and even then, Martial Rogue has lower BAB than Fighter or Ranger, so that'll put you at another disadvantage (lower to-hit, slower access to feat prereqs, no ability to draw a weapon as part of moving at level 1, and so on). A level 1 Fighter won't have the skill points, and a level 1 Ranger won't have the feats. So you'll have a sneaky thrower who can't throw and can't sneak. Unless you're in an intentionally wacky game where the goal is less to succeed and more to react to failure in an interesting manner, I just don't see where your fun is going to come from.

Like I said, though, fun is what you make of it. If you know ahead of time that you're not going to be able to do what you really want to do, and you're okay with the fact that your character really isn't going to have any strengths, then by all means, play whatever you like. If you genuinely believe that you'll have fun with a character who can't even meet the baseline for their stated archetype, then it's not my job to tell you you're doing it wrong. But if there is any doubt in your mind that you can enjoy a character without actually doing what you set out to do, then I sincerely recommend that you set this character aside and come up with something else that's more appropriate for the level range in question.

[evnaz]

recommend that you set this character aside and come up with something else that's more appropriate for the level range in question.

What would you recommend for someone who wants to play a character that's more martial based stealth assassin that's still flavorful

[Val666]

I'm surprised that Swift Hunter or Factotum have not been mentioned already.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=70jmd5i9jtplq869heerk168o4&topic=103.0

Take a look at that link for swift hunter handbook. It have it's Throwing section. About Factotum it implied a trick using Lajutsu Focus, Sandshape and Targeteer Fighters.

[Troacctid]

What would you recommend for someone who wants to play a character that's more martial based stealth assassin that's still flavorful

Probably a standard Rogue, optionally going into Assassin. You want the skills, and sneak attack is a very flavorful ability. If you want to spice it up with some magic, there are a lot of ways to do that too: Lurk, Spellthief, Daggerspell Mage, Unseen Seer, Shadowmind, and Shadowbane Stalker are all in your allowed sources.

[dascarletm]

Rangers get 6 skillpoints/level base.

Take your first level as ranger to capitalize on that.

If you want stealthy skills, ranger gets it, and you should be fine. Your 2 level dip in fighter isn't going to hurt you too bad.

[Flickerdart]

I'm surprised that Swift Hunter or Factotum have not been mentioned already.
OP has a limited range of books available, so Factotum is right out. Swift Hunter would work, but it's not very satisfying to play until about level 5 or 6 when you can actually get the feat and some means of moving and attacking more than once at the same time.

[Malroth]

Silverbrow Human Factotum 1/Fighter2/Bard 3 /FullBAB X Grab Able Learner and Rapid shot at 1 for Iaijutsu Focus and Knowledge skills. Grab Knowledge Devotion and Keeper of stories at 3 and Dragonfire Inspiration at 6, that should cover your Damage boosting pretty well regardless of your stats or weapon choice.

[Flickerdart]

Silverbrow Human Factotum 1/Fighter2/Bard 3 /FullBAB X Grab Able Learner and Rapid shot at 1 for Iaijutsu Focus and Knowledge skills. Grab Knowledge Devotion and Keeper of stories at 3 and Dragonfire Inspiration at 6, that should cover your Damage boosting pretty well regardless of your stats or weapon choice.

Not in the list of allowed sources. Allowed sources are PHB, XPH, and Completes.

Not a legal option. A human factotum cannot take Rapid Shot and Able Learner because Rapid Shot requires Point Blank Shot, and flaws are not in an allowed source. Collector of Stories does not work on Knowledge Devotion without a houserule, because it does not affect all Knowledge checks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm surprised that Swift Hunter or Factotum have not been mentioned already.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=70jmd5i9jtplq869heerk168o4&topic=103.0

Take a look at that link for swift hunter handbook. It have it's Throwing section. About Factotum it implied a trick using Lajutsu Focus, Sandshape and Targeteer Fighters.
I also have info on Swift Hunters and throwing in my Scout Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473666-New-Scout-Handbook), which draws on and expands Dictuum Mortis'. Swift Hunter works fine at low levels-- it doesn't kick in until 6th or so, but you don't really need it until then-- vanilla Scout or Ranger is fine for the first few levels. And Pounce and Travel Devotion are both on the table, and both only require one-level dips. You might also ask about mounted combat-- the ban is in the errata, which your DM might not use (or know about). While I don't endorse intentionally obfuscating rules, I DO endorse mounted Skirmish, so...

Throwing is weird-- it's easy to get lots of attacks, but even easier ruin your to-hit in the process, and your only good source of native damage boosting (Power Throw) does the same thing. On the other hand, with Brutal Throw you can easily get the same stat to attack and damage, and a 30ft range increment (javelins) isn't terrible. It'll keep your head above water for a little while, at least. Once you get your five levels of Master Thrower you can Power Throw fully with every attack, since you'll be hitting touch AC, but that's not until much later in the game.