A Wizard who can't control isn't a Wizard!

[Mordrigar]

That was what I say everytime I played a wizard. Until 5th edition.

I'm currently playing Out of the Abyss as a Diviner Wizard. We started at level 1 and now we're 4. (On our way to Kuo-Tuo village near Darklake)

When I created my character, my goal was to rule the battlefield. I thought with Lucky (feat) and Portent (Diviner ability) I could be master of rolling.

Then I choose my spells accordingly: Sleep, Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Minor Illusion. Everything was great on the paper. I thought I was a powerful battlefield controller Wizard. I've never been so wrong!

In 5th edition, wizards only have a few crowd control spells and half of them are nearly useless. (At low levels at least)

Being prone is nothing if enemy plays just after you.
Sleep doesn't work because 5d8 (Avg 22 I think) just useless against most of the enemies.
Tasha's hideous laughter is great among all, but it's single target, requires concentration, target rolls another saving throw after 1st round.

Then there is Chromatic Orb. A blast spell deals 3d8 (Avg 13) damage. You choose the damage type. Decent, if not great against nearly everything.
Fire Bolt has 120 feet range, reasonably well damage (1d10) and it's a cantrip.

Overall, I started to think about that 5th Edition just killed controller wizard and forced him to become blaster just like a plebian Sorcerer.

Lets say enemies have 11~15 HP which is common for levels between 1-3. There is little chance that you can use "sleep" succesfully on 2 enemies. Also, why should I put 2 of them into sleep while I can easily kill 1 with my blast spell of same level?

What I'm doing wrong? I feel like blasting is way better than controlling the battlefield.

[Spacehamster]

That was what I say everytime I played a wizard. Until 5th edition.

I'm currently playing Out of the Abyss as a Diviner Wizard. We started at level 1 and now we're 4. (On our way to Kuo-Tuo village near Darklake)

When I created my character, my goal was to rule the battlefield. I thought with Lucky (feat) and Portent (Diviner ability) I could be master of rolling.

Then I choose my spells accordingly: Sleep, Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Minor Illusion. Everything was great on the paper. I thought I was a powerful Battle field controller Wizard. I've never been so wrong!

In 5th edition, wizards only have a few crowd control spells and half of them are nearly useless. (At low levels at least)

Being prone is nothing if enemy plays just after you.
Sleep doesn't work because 5d8 (Avg 22 I think) just useless against most of the enemies.
Tasha's hideous laughter is great among all, but it's single target, requires concentration, target rolls another saving throw after 1st round.

Then there is Chromatic Orb. A blast spell deals 3d8 (Avg 13) damage. You choose the damage type. Decent, if not great against nearly everything.
Fire Bolt has 120 feet range, reasonably well damage (1d10) and it's a cantrip.

Overall, I started to think about that 5th Edition just killed controller wizard and forced him to become Blaster just like a plebian Sorcerer.

Lets say enemies have 11~15 HP which is common for levels between 1-3. There is little chance that you can use "sleep" succesfully on 2 enemies. Also, why should I put 2 of them into sleep while I can easily kill 1 with my blast spell of same level?

What I'm doing wrong? I feel like blasting is way better than controlling the battlefield.

With the amount of spells wizards gets access to I think a healthy mix of blasting and control is best, sleep is powerful as hell at lvl 1-2 and can make an encounter just "we slit the sleeping goblins throats one by one" after sleep hits, its intended that it does not scale too well. :)

[krugaan]

Well... to be honest "dead" is a great way to crowd control things.

I think the most valuable crowd control spells that wizards bring to the table are wall type spells and LOS restrictors. Single target CC is fairly useless given how fast the party should be able to down single targets. Spells like fog cloud, darkness, stinking cloud are all great low level spells that can protect your party from enemy casters while you fireball all the chaff.

Yeah, sleep is still useful as a finisher, but you definitely shouldn't lead with it past level 2.

"Crowd control" of the sort you're thinking of is better handled by bards and clerics, IMO, but I guess your mileage will vary.

[pwykersotz]

A controller wizard gets a lot of great options, but you're right, they aren't going to affect the whole battlefield anymore. There are some that do...Mass Suggestion, Earthquake, Summons like Animate Object...but those are higher level. Now you have to get a little clever.

As you note with Sleep, creatures have higher HP now, so taking a single creature out with Tasha's Hideous Laughter and then blasting with Firebolts while your party lays into them is a pretty fantastic use of a spell. And yes, in my opinion hordes of weak enemies are better dealt with via damage.

Edit: It's interesting that you call out Sleep as being weak. There are threads devoted to calling it OP. :smalltongue:

[ruy343]

At low levels, wizards are OK and damage dealing, but at later levels, they really start to suck at it. They may unleash a fireball for 8d6 damage (24-32 is expected) but many monsters will make their saves, so you usually only deal half damage. When the fighter can dish out 30 damage per round, the same as you, you'll discover that wizards weren't built for damage.

However, wizards get a great variety of useful spells. Sleep is good for early levels, but drops off drastically later on. Tasha's Hideous laughter is actually great: the target is greatly hampered for that round (and they should only roll to save on their turn, not as cast, if I remember right).

Try not to focus on your DPR as on your creativity: you have a reservoir of outside-the-box spells which allows you to do things that alter the face of the battle. They are different in this edition, but they're most definitely not useless!

[krugaan]

And yes, in my opinion hordes of weak enemies are better dealt with via damage.


Hah, look at it this way. Fireball is just an upgraded sleep spell that puts anyone with less than 25 hp to sleep... permanently.

[Mellack]

That was what I say everytime I played a wizard. Until 5th edition.

I'm currently playing Out of the Abyss as a Diviner Wizard. We started at level 1 and now we're 4. (On our way to Kuo-Tuo village near Darklake)

When I created my character, my goal was to rule the battlefield. I thought with Lucky (feat) and Portent (Diviner ability) I could be master of rolling.

Then I choose my spells accordingly: Sleep, Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Minor Illusion. Everything was great on the paper. I thought I was a powerful battlefield controller Wizard. I've never been so wrong!

In 5th edition, wizards only have a few crowd control spells and half of them are nearly useless. (At low levels at least)

Being prone is nothing if enemy plays just after you.
Sleep doesn't work because 5d8 (Avg 22 I think) just useless against most of the enemies.
Tasha's hideous laughter is great among all, but it's single target, requires concentration, target rolls another saving throw after 1st round.

Then there is Chromatic Orb. A blast spell deals 3d8 (Avg 13) damage. You choose the damage type. Decent, if not great against nearly everything.
Fire Bolt has 120 feet range, reasonably well damage (1d10) and it's a cantrip.

Overall, I started to think about that 5th Edition just killed controller wizard and forced him to become blaster just like a plebian Sorcerer.

Lets say enemies have 11~15 HP which is common for levels between 1-3. There is little chance that you can use "sleep" succesfully on 2 enemies. Also, why should I put 2 of them into sleep while I can easily kill 1 with my blast spell of same level?

What I'm doing wrong? I feel like blasting is way better than controlling the battlefield.

Sleep is fantastic at the lower levels. No save or to hit roll needed. Then there are spells like Web, Tasha's Laughter, Hypnotic Pattern, Grease, even Blindness/Deafness. You can still play a controller wizard if you want. What I think has changed is that being a blaster is now better supported. You now have options in being a wizard that were not as available previously.

[Mordrigar]

It's interesting that you call out Sleep as being weak. There are threads devoted to calling it OP. :smalltongue:

Sleep is great against non-elf, non-undead, non-plant, non-construct, non-ooze enemies which have less than 7 hit points. With (avg) 22 points, you can sleep 3 of them!
If they have 7-11, it's decent and it's up to situtation.
But for me, if they have 11 or more hit points, it sounds wiser to kill one of them via Chromatic Orb's avg 13 damage. At least, you can choose your damage type.

Edit:
Hah, look at it this way. Fireball is just an upgraded sleep spell that puts anyone with less than 25 hp to sleep... permanently.
This is what I exactly mean!

[MaxWilson]

What I'm doing wrong? I feel like blasting is way better than controlling the battlefield.

Take a look at (in rough order of best to pretty good) Wall of Force, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Fear, Evard's Black Tentacles, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Stinking Cloud. Make sure you thoroughly understand what the restrained and frightened conditions do--they are really powerful when used right.

If anything I think it is blaster wizards who suffer in 5E, since the paltry damage from blasting spells is greatly overshadowed by monster HP and by weapon damage output from warriors and cantrips from warlocks.

[pwykersotz]

Hah, look at it this way. Fireball is just an upgraded sleep spell that puts anyone with less than 25 hp to sleep... permanently.

(Several slippery slopes later...)

Wizard: I swear your honor, I only imprisoned his soul to help him get 40 winks! Really, all my spells merely facilitate a good night's rest. If they stay down for more, that's on them, not me.

[Mellack]

Sleep is great against non-elf, non-undead, non-plant, non-construct, non-ooze enemies which have less than 7 hit points. With (avg) 22 points, you can sleep 3 of them!
If they have 7-11, it's decent and it's up to situtation.
But for me, if they have 11 or more hit points, it sounds wiser to kill one of them via Chromatic Orb's avg 13 damage. At least, you can choose your damage type.

Edit:
This is what I exactly mean!

Unless you miss your to hit roll and do nothing to them while still spending your spell slot. Remember that Sleep has no save.

[Mordrigar]

Take a look at (in rough order of best to pretty good) Wall of Force, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Stinking Cloud.

I know these spells but at my current level, I can't use any of them except Web. (Which is nearly useless in my campaign because all we have is Giant Spiders in our random encounters) Also, I think Hypnotic Pattern is OP spell by it's level. But not enough to win my heart.

I already know that wizards that bend reality in their spare times died with 3.5e. I'm not expecting miracles or one-man armies from 5th Edition Wizard. But yet, current controlling spells are just weak. Also, in terms of blasting, Wizard is not the best. Sorcerers, Warlocks or Sorc/Locks wins in terms of blasting.



Unless you miss your to hit roll and do nothing to them while still spending your spell slot. Remember that Sleep has no save.
I generally do not miss. Lucky + Portent + Bat familiar which uses help action on me helps a bit.

[krugaan]

(Several slippery slopes later...)

Wizard: I swear your honor, I only imprisoned his soul to help him get 40 winks! Really, all my spells merely facilitate a good night's rest. If they stay down for more, that's on them, not me.

Lol. The next day...

Wizard: "Someone had cast an illusion on him ... he looked like a fire elemental ... I thought I was doing him a favor!"

[Maralais]

Well, this is certainly an interesting way to find out that my player also frequents the forum. I'm suddenly very happy that I didn't post anything about the campaign.

As for the spells, while I'll admit your personal experience with them has been less than stellar so far (what can I say, my NPCs roll well:smallbiggrin:), but the spells themselves have a lot of potential if you ask me.

Sleep's 5d8 quickly ends up not being enough for the encounters, true, but then again the spell has a Higher Level variant for a reason. A 2d8 should be more than enough to help you when you come across the first hurdle of high-HP monsters, and so on and so forth as your spell levels increase.

Grease's advantage, I believe, comes not from the falling prone part but through its ability to turn an area into difficult terrain. Especially in a narrow corridor, that could be used with great tactical advantage.

And for Tasha's Hideous Laughter, while the target gets to roll a saving throw every round, they're at the end of their round, so they lose at least two turns.

[Finieous]

I personally think you're right. Concentration and repeating save ends, along with fewer spell slots, have really hurt controllers. Walls are still good, because there's no save, illusions and obscurement spells can be good on the same principle. But your traditional charms, holds and the like have taken a real hit. Pound for pound and spell slot for spell slot, you're probably better off buffing your damage dealers than casting a concentration save-ends spell.

[MaxWilson]

I know these spells but at my current level, I can't use any of them except Web. (Which is nearly useless in my campaign because all we have is Giant Spiders in our random encounters) Also, I think Hypnotic Pattern is OP spell by it's level. But not enough to win my heart.

I already know that wizards that bend reality in their spare times died with 3.5e. I'm not expecting miracles or one-man armies from 5th Edition Wizard. But yet, current controlling spells are just weak. Also, in terms of blasting, Wizard is not the best. Sorcerers, Warlocks or Sorc/Locks wins in terms of blasting.

Sounds like your real complaint is "3rd level wizards are not good controllers."

If you want a wizard who's a good controller at 3rd level, try a Fighter 1/Enchanter 2. At-will hypnotic lockdown, baby. (BTW, there is no per-round saving throw on that one--once you fail your save you're out of the fight unless the wizard lets you go somehow or you take damage.) Diviner 2 is pretty neat too in a different (more nova-ish) way.

Other than that and Web, yeah, wizards don't really start to shine until 5th level.

P.S. I forgot to mention Slow as a controller spell.

[Dalebert]

I generally do not miss. Lucky + Portent + Bat familiar which uses help action on me helps a bit.

Darkness plus a bat familiar is a great combo. You can learn some tactics to make Darkness or obscurement spells better. Cast it on your bat's collar. Now you can maneuver the area around. If the ceiling is at least 15 ft high, you can have a 10x10 area of Darkness that doesn't impede your allies but has room for them if they want to use it. Step out and cast then step back in to impose disadvantage on any ranged attacks against you and make sight-targeted spells not work. If the situation doesn't support that, have spells in your repertoire that don't require LoS like Acid Splash or AoE.


And for Tasha's Hideous Laughter, while the target gets to roll a saving throw every round, they're at the end of their round, so they lose at least two turns.

I saw this spell in action recently and it was brutal. Even once they save, they're prone and can't get up until it's their turn again so you have a whole round of advantage against them. Your melee will love it.

Because it's just 1st level, the bard just kept casting it again after the target broke out--a big heavy-hitting, multi-attacking target. She cast it three times but it was totally worth it. There were two scary enemies and they were able to deal with them one at a time. Made a potentially scary fight into a routine take-down with minimal damage to the party and a very modest overall use of resources for that tough of a fight.

You have to use these spells with clever tactics to maximize their potential. Don't think about yourself and your spell in a vacuum. Consider the terrain and how you can use it. When you use a spell like Grease, hold the action for it to go off right after the enemies turn so you get maximum prone time. Things like that.

[Sitri]

Almost all of the "save or suck" spells, are now just "suck spells." Also, if you care what Jeremy Crawford has to say about vision just being something nice that people have, but not really all that important, then I agree, there really is no longer a reason to devote yourself as a controller. Which makes me a big sad face.

[Petrocorus]

But for me, if they have 11 or more hit points, it sounds wiser to kill one of them via Chromatic Orb's avg 13 damage. At least, you can choose your damage type.


Maybe i miss something but doesn't the Chromatic Orb cost 50 gp per casting? Is this not a bit expensive for an average 13 damages, especially for a level 1 - 3 PC. Does people use that spell a lot?

[Flashy]

Maybe i miss something but doesn't the Chromatic Orb cost 50 gp per casting? Is this not a bit expensive for an average 13 damages, especially for a level 1 - 3 PC. Does people use that spell a lot?

It's a one time expense. If the spell doesn't explicitly say that the ingredients are consumed then they aren't. You buy the diamond once and then you're good. Compare Animate Dead and Chromatic Orb with Greater Restoration and Magic Circle, as an example of this.

[JackPhoenix]

Maybe i miss something but doesn't the Chromatic Orb cost 50 gp per casting? Is this not a bit expensive for an average 13 damages, especially for a level 1 - 3 PC. Does people use that spell a lot?

Yep, you're missing that diamond needed for Chromatic Orb is reusable, unless it's specifically noted, material components aren't consumed during the casting...still, getting the 50gp gem at all isn't trivial at those levels.

Edit: Shadowmonk'd

[mephnick]

Yeah, just wait a few levels. Black Tentacles and a bunch of spells near that level can end entire combats.

[Sitri]

Yeah, just wait a few levels. Black Tentacles and a bunch of spells near that level can end entire combats.

It perhaps one of the better control spells, but still very underwhelming if coming from 3.x.

A 20' cube isn't a very large AoE and the fact they get two saves a round in it (one dex and one str or dex of its choice) to just walk out of it, it doesn't really tie up too many people. I didn't find it near as useful as I hoped I would. You really don't need legendary resistances to expect to simply walk away. I may be wrong, by I am fairly certain I've never seen a single creature held in it over one round.

EDIT: Some readings may only provide one STR or DEX save on rounds 2+

[Sception]

I don't know about battlefield control spells, but for single target spells the casters in our party have made good use of banishment and the hold monster or person. Ended more than one fight on a couple failed saves.

[Hairfish]

I'm currently playing Out of the Abyss
...
Sleep doesn't work because 5d8 (Avg 22 I think) just useless against most of the enemies.


Out of the Abyss is about the worst possible campaign to take Sleep for. During the time when it would be most effective, you're surrounded by high-hp elves.

One thing you're looking for is reliable ways to inflict disadvantage on your enemies and grant advantage to your allies. Another is action and spell slot economy: the number of enemy-turns wasted overcoming whatever it was you just cast.

A good example of a low-level spell that capitalizes on both is Silent Image. Create an illusion of a 15 ft2 area of smoke or mist and hide your strikers in it. Your party knows it's an illusion and can see through it, because you went over this with them in advance (right?). Each enemy has to interact with the cloud in some fashion just to be able to spend an entire action on an Int check to see through it (though enemies that can verbally communicate could get advantage on the check once one of them figures it out). With one concentration spell, you've created a mobile screen that grants your damage-dealers advantage on their attack rolls, gives enemies disadvantage on attempts to retaliate, and requires every enemy to take an action (and succeed at an uncommon check) to undo what you just did.

Cast Silent Image and hang out inside it while your blasters mow down the enemy. Next turn, cast Prestidigitation to chill your wineskin and enjoy a cool drink. After that, Fire Bolt stragglers or use Mage Hand to start looting the dead. If anyone gripes that you're not doing enough, cast Charm Person on them.

[MaxWilson]

A 20' cube isn't a very large AoE and the fact they get two saves a round in it (one dex and one str or dex of its choice) to just walk out of it, it doesn't really tie up too many people. I didn't find it near as useful as I hoped I would. You really don't need legendary resistances to expect to simply walk away. I may be wrong, by I am fairly certain I've never seen a single creature held in it over one round.

EDIT: Some readings may only provide one STR or DEX save on rounds 2+

Since making a Str or Dex check (not save) to break free costs you your action, how are you getting two saves per round? Are you imagining a fighter that Action Surges so he can attempt it twice?

[SharkForce]

It perhaps one of the better control spells, but still very underwhelming if coming from 3.x.

A 20' cube isn't a very large AoE and the fact they get two saves a round in it (one dex and one str or dex of its choice) to just walk out of it, it doesn't really tie up too many people. I didn't find it near as useful as I hoped I would. You really don't need legendary resistances to expect to simply walk away. I may be wrong, by I am fairly certain I've never seen a single creature held in it over one round.

EDIT: Some readings may only provide one STR or DEX save on rounds 2+

1) which reading gives 2 attempts to escape? even if you assume the "save or you get stuck" applies when they're already stuck, that just means they get a save to avoid taking an *extra* 3d6 damage (they're already restrained)
2) it isn't a save to escape, it is a check. which is an important distinction, because proficiency in all strength or dex checks is super rare (even half proficiency is super rare).
3) escaping costs your action. to even get a chance.

no, it isn't as good as 3.x control spells. but you are *seriously* underselling the spell.

anyways, as has been said, at levels 1 and 2, sleep is ridiculous. i dunno why you haven't been getting amazing results from it, because it probably takes down half of the average encounter when you use it, which might take you from a "deadly" rated encounter down to average. at level 3, you get web, which is basically evard's tentacles minus the damage. note that you can place it in a lot of places you might not expect; on walls, across the ground (no need for opposing points to attach to), you can even cast it in the air if you don't mind it disappearing a round later.

anyways, here are probably some key contributing reasons for your struggles:

1) you don't have spells to target weak saves yet. if you come across an enemy with bad charisma saves, well, fat lot of good it does you, because you don't have a charisma-save spell to use. particularly at low levels, relatively high dexterity scores are fairly common.
2) your proficiency bonus and attribute bonus give you an unimpressive save DC. not only does this make the initial save easier, it also means that control spells with recurring saves tend to wear off.
3) you don't have a wide variety of useful effects yet. mostly, they all boil down to "advantage for you, disadvantage for them" so far.

give it time. it will take you time to really get rolling. in the meanwhile, using your spells at the right time and in the right place can still have a major impact on a battle.

wizards can control. their control no longer consists of "i instantly win the fight without anyone else contributing", and that is probably a good thing. work with your party to make your control really count. when you land a control spell on a key target, everyone should focus them down as quickly as possible.

[Sitri]

Since making a Str or Dex check (not save) to break free costs you your action, how are you getting two saves per round? Are you imagining a fighter that Action Surges so he can attempt it twice?

You get one save at the start of the turn for free. You could make a good argument that save doesn't get made if you are already restrained, but that isn't explicate. Then you get the check for your action that you get to pick; and pretty much everyone has a good Dex or Str.

I can't remember if my DM ruled two saves every round or not now. I know it surprised the hell out of me the first time I saw him roll twice in the same round and then he showed me why. After about 5-6 casting of under performance, I left it behind.

You and Sharkforce are right though about the second attempt being a check instead of a Save. That does matter, and perhaps something we overlooked.


Out of the Abyss is about the worst possible campaign to take Sleep for. During the time when it would be most effective, you're surrounded by high-hp elves.

One thing you're looking for is reliable ways to inflict disadvantage on your enemies and grant advantage to your allies. Another is action and spell slot economy: the number of enemy-turns wasted overcoming whatever it was you just cast.

A good example of a low-level spell that capitalizes on both is Silent Image. Create an illusion of a 15 ft2 area of smoke or mist and hide your strikers in it. Your party knows it's an illusion and can see through it, because you went over this with them in advance (right?). Each enemy has to interact with the cloud in some fashion just to be able to spend an entire action on an Int check to see through it (though enemies that can verbally communicate could get advantage on the check once one of them figures it out). With one concentration spell, you've created a mobile screen that grants your damage-dealers advantage on their attack rolls, gives enemies disadvantage on attempts to retaliate, and requires every enemy to take an action (and succeed at an uncommon check) to undo what you just did.

Cast Silent Image and hang out inside it while your blasters mow down the enemy. Next turn, cast Prestidigitation to chill your wineskin and enjoy a cool drink. After that, Fire Bolt stragglers or use Mage Hand to start looting the dead. If anyone gripes that you're not doing enough, cast Charm Person on them.

I would say your party that you discussed the spell with get no more advantage on seeing through the illusion than the enemies who had their party members tell them about it.

However, It says nothing about making your smoke or mist move in a way that would make sense when interacted with, in fact it says interaction automatically causes disbelief. I don't think you can make the mist look/feel real to someone swinging in it any more than you can make your creature illusion dodge to deny your enemy their interaction.

[Dalebert]

A good example of a low-level spell that capitalizes on both is Silent Image.

Silent Image is great and I'm a big fan of it but it's not quite as good as you're making it out to be. If they physically interact with it, they instantly know it's an illusion and can see through it--no investigation. If it's just fog, I wouldn't treat firing arrows into it as an physical interaction because you would expect arrows to go right through fog, unlike if it was an illusion of a creature.

If they have reason to believe it may be an illusion, they can investigate it--no need to physically interact. Success will let them see through it. Still, that takes an action.

I like this fog idea. I'll probably use that. My shadow monk can do Darkness but it costs 2 ki points and he's the only one who can see through it. Meanwhile, he has Silent Image at will and if he puts it up around himself and allies, they'll immediately see through it since they've interacted with it. Ranged allies can hang out there and benefit from the one-way obscurement.

[MaxWilson]

You get one save at the start of the turn for free. You could make a good argument that save doesn't get made if you are already restrained, but that isn't explicate. Then you get the check for your action that you get to pick; and pretty much everyone has a good Dex or Str.

It actually is explicit. That saving throw is to avoid getting caught, it doesn't help you escape once you are caught.

"When a creature enters the affected area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, the creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 3d6 bludgeoning damage and be restrained by the tentacles until the spell ends. A creature that starts its turn in the area and is already restrained by the tentacles takes 3d6 bludgeoning damage. A creature restrained by the tentacles can use its action to make a Strength or Dexterity check (its choice) against your spell save DC. On a success, it frees itself."

Compare this to a spell like Hold Person where the creature explicitly gets a new save every single turn. With Evard's Black Tentacles, not only does the creature have to burn an action to try to break free, but it's also a check, not a save, which means that things like Hex and Cutting Words can prevent it from breaking free. And every round that it fails to break free, it takes damage. In fact, by the time it gets its first chance to break free, the creature may very well have taken 6d6 damage already (3d6 when first caught and 3d6 at the start of its next turn, e.g. if it was blasted into the EBT area by a Repelling Blast on someone else's turn or shoved in there by a fighter's Athletics roll). That's almost as much as Fireball even before you consider ongoing damage or the fact that it pretty much removes most creatures from the combat.

EBT is a great spell, whose only downside is the smallish area. (Too bad it's not a 20' cube instead of a 20' square or you'd get more potential mileage out of turning the cube on its side.)


I can't remember if my DM ruled two saves every round or not now. I know it surprised the ---- out of me the first time I saw him roll twice in the same round and then he showed me why. After about 5-6 casting of under performance, I left it behind.

He must have had a monster run into the area, make a Dex save, fail (and take 3d6 damage), and then use its action to try to break free. In which case, hooray! You cost it a round of attacks and did 3d6 damage to it. Not useless at all. (Also, you cost it some movement because of difficult terrain.) Next step is to blast it right back into the EBT zone with Repelling Blast.

As a DM I find fighting my way through EBT with melee monsters extremely frustrating, which means it must be a great spell. By the time they make it past the EBT zone the monsters are often half-dead already and about ready to break and run.

[SharkForce]

yeah, save to avoid getting stuck doesn't do a danged thing for you if you're already stuck. it doesn't say make a save to get free at all. it just says that unless you make that save, you get stuck and take damage.

once stuck, you have the option to make a check to escape, which costs your action (you don't have that option when you're not stuck of course, because if you're not stuck you don't need to break free).

[RulesJD]

Well, this is certainly an interesting way to find out that my player also frequents the forum. I'm suddenly very happy that I didn't post anything about the campaign.

As for the spells, while I'll admit your personal experience with them has been less than stellar so far (what can I say, my NPCs roll well:smallbiggrin:), but the spells themselves have a lot of potential if you ask me.

Sleep's 5d8 quickly ends up not being enough for the encounters, true, but then again the spell has a Higher Level variant for a reason. A 2d8 should be more than enough to help you when you come across the first hurdle of high-HP monsters, and so on and so forth as your spell levels increase.

Grease's advantage, I believe, comes not from the falling prone part but through its ability to turn an area into difficult terrain. Especially in a narrow corridor, that could be used with great tactical advantage.

And for Tasha's Hideous Laughter, while the target gets to roll a saving throw every round, they're at the end of their round, so they lose at least two turns.

Sorry for the advice I'm about to give that will put your Wizard on the railroad to OPtown.

1. Pick up Phantasmal Force. Congrats, you now have an almost guaranteed disabler against any enemy you find because NOBODY has a Int save worth a damn. Make your illusion a thick steal box full of fire and your enemy is going nowhere unless somebody pulls him away from it.

2. Pick up Hypnotic Pattern at level 5. You will now dominate the battlefield. Guaranteed 2-3 failed saves per encounter and you either just reduced the fight in 1/2, or cost several enemies their actions to wake up their failed friends, a huge boost in 5e action economy.

3. Pickup Flaming Sphere. It's a control spell hidden in a damage spell. Use careful positioning to force enemies to either eat the damage or eat an Opportunity Attack from your allies to move out of burning range. Plus it's only a bonus action.

4. For cantrips, take Mold Earth. OotA is almost entirely in loose dirt. 5ft hole = many enemies are going to have to try and get out. Have an ally knock them prone in the hole. If you get a second turn, Mold Earth again to place enemy 10ft underground and buried in 5ft of dirt.

5. This is DM dependent, but Suggestion is completely broken for control. "Your great leader sent us to seek out the nonbelievers and your supposed local leader is totally in cahoots with the enemy, help us cleanse their taint and you will be richly rewarded".

Oh, and for whomever said Wizards can't do damage?

Look up 10 tiny objects from Animate Objects. +8 to hit, so lets assume maybe 2/3 hit a normal target? That's 7d4+28. Average of 45.5 magical bludgeoning damage as a bonus action turn after turn. Level 10 Evocation Wizard + Magic Missile + Animate Objects = average of 71 at just a level 1 Magic Missile slot and an Animate Objects. God forbid the enemy moves and each Tiny object gets an attack of opportunity. Throwing Fireballs (Sculpted around party of course) as your Action + Animate Objects as your bonus action = Wizard soloing encounters.

[MaxWilson]

Silent Image is great and I'm a big fan of it but it's not quite as good as you're making it out to be. If they physically interact with it, they instantly know it's an illusion and can see through it--no investigation. If it's just fog, I wouldn't treat firing arrows into it as an physical interaction because you would expect arrows to go right through fog, unlike if it was an illusion of a creature.

If they have reason to believe it may be an illusion, they can investigate it--no need to physically interact. Success will let them see through it. Still, that takes an action.

Now I've got this weird idea in my head of stealthily kidnapping an enemy and then using an illusion of that enemy to make it look like he just walked through a wall, which means the wall is "obviously" an illusion.

"Come on, you guys! There's lots of treasure here. Just disbelieve the illusion and come on through. Try banging your head on it some more."

[Sitri]

It actually is explicit. That saving throw is to avoid getting caught, it doesn't help you escape once you are caught.

"When a creature enters the affected area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, the creature must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 3d6 bludgeoning damage and be restrained by the tentacles until the spell ends. A creature that starts its turn in the area and is already restrained by the tentacles takes 3d6 bludgeoning damage. A creature restrained by the tentacles can use its action to make a Strength or Dexterity check (its choice) against your spell save DC. On a success, it frees itself."

Compare this to a spell like Hold Person where the creature explicitly gets a new save every single turn. With Evard's Black Tentacles, not only does the creature have to burn an action to try to break free, but it's also a check, not a save, which means that things like Hex and Cutting Words can prevent it from breaking free. And every round that it fails to break free, it takes damage. In fact, by the time it gets its first chance to break free, the creature may very well have taken 6d6 damage already (3d6 when first caught and 3d6 at the start of its next turn, e.g. if it was blasted into the EBT area by a Repelling Blast on someone else's turn or shoved in there by a fighter's Athletics roll). That's almost as much as Fireball even before you consider ongoing damage or the fact that it pretty much removes most creatures from the combat.

EBT is a great spell, whose only downside is the smallish area. (Too bad it's not a 20' cube instead of a 20' square or you'd get more potential mileage out of turning the cube on its side.)



He must have had a monster run into the area, make a Dex save, fail (and take 3d6 damage), and then use its action to try to break free. In which case, hooray! You cost it a round of attacks and did 3d6 damage to it. Not useless at all. (Also, you cost it some movement because of difficult terrain.) Next step is to blast it right back into the EBT zone with Repelling Blast.

As a DM I find fighting my way through EBT with melee monsters extremely frustrating, which means it must be a great spell. By the time they make it past the EBT zone the monsters are often half-dead already and about ready to break and run.

It doesn't have to run into the tentacles to get two saves. I can cast right on top of it and it gets them. Dex isn't a hard save to come by and when they get to choose dex or str check, their odds aren't horrible, DCs are pretty low.

The spells are worded different, because you can't run into a hold person field.

You could make an argument for context that the spell says you only get two chances to get out on your first turn, and I would agree with you that is the desire, but the spell does not say that. It says you get a DEX save if you start your turn in it or walk into it, no explicate qualifier of not yet being restrained, and you can make a STR or DEX check to attempt to get out if you are restrained.

Like I said before I can't remember if my DM gave them two chances out after the first turn, they didn't stay in long enough for me to really remember, but the text is worded in a way that I would give limited pushback to a DM that did run it that way.

Also we played in a lot of big rooms and a lot of things with legendary resistance starting at middle levels. Rather than waste my action and spell slot in the hopes of wasting one mook's action and dealing 3d6, I was better off just doing something else. If you play games in small rooms with 50 kobalds being a normal thing, I could see this spell being better.

As far as knocking things back in, EB requires positioning that isn't always available and anyone who has the chance to knock a mook back in by hand is better of just beating it to death.

[Fable Wright]

Like I said before I can't remember if my DM gave them two chances out after the first turn, they didn't stay in long enough for me to really remember, but the text is worded in a way that I would give limited pushback to a DM that did run it that way.

See, all you need to do to make the spell better is one thing:

Point out to the DM that the Dex saving throw only prevents you from being restrained. A successful throw will not make you unrestrained if you were already. That's what the DM thought it did, and it used that save plus the check for the monster's action as two attempts to break free every round.

[Christian]

I like this fog idea. I'll probably use that. My shadow monk can do Darkness but it costs 2 ki points and he's the only one who can see through it. Meanwhile, he has Silent Image at will and if he puts it up around himself and allies, they'll immediately see through it since they've interacted with it. Ranged allies can hang out there and benefit from the one-way obscurement.
This would be cool, if shadow monks got Silent Image at will. Sadly, their at-will is the cantrip Minor Illusion, which doesn't support this trick.

[Sitri]

See, all you need to do to make the spell better is one thing:

Point out to the DM that the Dex saving throw only prevents you from being restrained. A successful throw will not make you unrestrained if you were already. That's what the DM thought it did, and it used that save plus the check for the monster's action as two attempts to break free every round.

Good point

[Dalebert]

1. Pick up Phantasmal Force. Congrats, you now have an almost guaranteed disabler against any enemy you find because NOBODY has a Int save worth a damn. Make your illusion a thick steal box full of fire and your enemy is going nowhere unless somebody pulls him away from it.

As soon as they attempt to break out of it, they will. Picture someone ramming their shoulder against the walls which they can barely see and they've moved out. Their mind will justify it in a possibly very contrived way, but the steel walls can't hold them in any more than the illusory bridge example in the spell's description could allow them to cross a chasm. So no, this spell is still very limited. To my knowledge, the only way to hold a creature in place remains making an illusory creature and hoping they choose to stay there to avoid an AoO.

I guess there are some things that might not immediately get them out, like if a caster decides to try to blast their way out of it. Where the spell is ambiguous is about how to handle this. Is it possible to damage the illusion? Does their mind see a hole in the wall now if their spell would have damage a real steel wall so they can step through? I don't know. Up to the DM, I guess. It also doesn't say whether the caster has any control over the illusion after creating it but it seems not since Silent Image and Major Image have text to indicate they do and this does not. If I were DM, I'd rule it as behaving in a manner that the target would expect since it's in their mind.

You've got me wanting to give this spell another chance as a crowd control spell. I was discouraged by the damage and the idea that it wouldn't hold anything but if it contains a particularly hard-hitting stupid mob for a round or two, that's still decent bang for the buck.

Another reason I was interested is because it's eligible to be twinned. If you have two mobs within 5 feet of the area, they both would experience the illusion. Now imagine two guys suddenly trapped in a glowing red hot adamantite box (why stop at steel?). They're both experiencing it and taking damage from it. They would help to convince each other it's real!


Look up 10 tiny objects from Animate Objects. +8 to hit, so lets assume maybe 2/3 hit a normal target? That's 7d4+28. Average of 45.5 magical bludgeoning damage as a bonus action turn after turn.

It is great damage, but just clarifying that it's not magical damage because the damage is indirect. This came up in another thread and there was a Crawford tweet about it. Spell damage is magical only when it's direct damage. Other examples of indirect (and thus non-magical) damage from spells are telekinesis and Conjure Animals.


This would be cool, if shadow monks got Silent Image at will. Sadly, their at-will is the cantrip Minor Illusion, which doesn't support this trick.

Agree about Minor Illusion, of course. My shadow monk dipped two levels of warlock and has Silent Image at will. That's also how he sees through his own darkness. It's a good dip for shadow monks.

[RulesJD]

As soon as they attempt to break out of it, they will. Picture someone ramming their shoulder against the walls which they can barely see and they've moved out. Their mind will justify it in a possibly very contrived way, but the steel walls can't hold them in any more than the illusory bridge example in the spell's description could allow them to cross a chasm. So no, this spell is still very limited. To my knowledge, the only way to hold a creature in place remains making an illusory creature and hoping they choose to stay there to avoid an AoO.

I guess there are some things that might not immediately get them out, like if a caster decides to try to blast their way out of it. Where the spell is ambiguous is about how to handle this. Is it possible to damage the illusion? Does their mind see a hole in the wall now if their spell would have damage a real steel wall so they can step through? I don't know. Up to the DM, I guess. It also doesn't say whether the caster has any control over the illusion after creating it but it seems not since Silent Image and Major Image have text to indicate they do and this does not. If I were DM, I'd rule it as behaving in a manner that the target would expect since it's in their mind.

You've got me wanting to give this spell another chance as a crowd control spell. I was discouraged by the damage and the idea that it wouldn't hold anything but if it contains a particularly hard-hitting stupid mob for a round or two, that's still decent bang for the buck.

Another reason I was interested is because it's eligible to be twinned. If you have two mobs within 5 feet of the area, they both would experience the illusion. Now imagine two guys suddenly trapped in a glowing red hot adamantite box (why stop at steel?). They're both experiencing it and taking damage from it. They would help to convince each other it's real!



It is great damage, but just clarifying that it's not magical damage because the damage is indirect. This came up in another thread and there was a Crawford tweet about it. Spell damage is magical only when it's direct damage. Other examples of indirect (and thus non-magical) damage from spells are telekinesis and Conjure Animals.



Agree about Minor Illusion, of course. My shadow monk dipped two levels of warlock and has Silent Image at will. That's also how he sees through his own darkness. It's a good dip for shadow monks.

1. Just make it something they wouldn't want to break out of. A swirling whirl of blades that will slice them to ribbons if they try to escape. A solid wall of spikes. A whirling maelstrom of fire/cold/lightning/death that they are protected from in their little bubble. Take your pick.

2. It is direct damage. These aren't summoned creatures, they are animated by magic. The damage they do is certainly a direct part of the damage.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/30/magic-resistance-against-physical-damage/

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/26/is-damage-dealt-by-conjured-beasts-considered-magical/

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/31/would-hail-of-thorns-flaming-arrows-hex-or-hunters-mark-be-magical/

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/30/magic-resistance-against-physical-damage/

The closest comparison would be Hail of Thorns or Cloud of Daggers. Heck the 10 tiny objects could literally be 10 daggers like a Cloud of Daggers.

The objects created are by their nature magical. They aren't be Conjured or Summoned, they are being Created, which is an important distinction imho. It's no different than the razor thorns created by Spike Growth. So yes, I argue that the damage the created objects do is directly magical.

Admittedly, it's hard to tell because it has a sort of stat block. But the fact that the stat block is literally in the spell itself, it's hard to argue that it isn't part of the direct damage of the spell.

[Dalebert]

There is a Sage Advice quote that specifically refers to Animate Object and says the damage is considered indirect and thus non-magical. I can't find it right now but there was a lengthy thread already on this subject. The other cases you're giving are where physical objects are being created by the spell and thus the spell is dealing damage directly, e.g.Cloud of Daggers or Spikestones. The key here is direct vs. indirect. Cases of indirect damage include moving non-magical objects--Catapult, Telekinesis, Animate Object. In the case of conjuring creatures, those creatures have the stats of the original creatures and no special properties to deal magical damage that the creature didn't have and again, this is indirect damage. Shoving someone off a cliff with a repelling EB so they fall and hit the ground, the falling damage is indirect damage and non-magical.

I did find this with a search and it points out that the objects are described as being "non-magical" in the spell description.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/73349/do-objects-from-animate-objects-count-as-magical-weapons-for-the-purpose-of-ov

[Petrocorus]

4. For cantrips, take Mold Earth. OotA is almost entirely in loose dirt. 5ft hole = many enemies are going to have to try and get out. Have an ally knock them prone in the hole. If you get a second turn, Mold Earth again to place enemy 10ft underground and buried in 5ft of dirt.

What exactly is "OotA" in this context?

[SharkForce]

What exactly is "OotA" in this context?

out of the abyss. the adventure path the player is in.

[Finieous]

The objects created are by their nature magical.

They specifically aren't created by the spell. They're animated by the spell. A flying sword doesn't deal magical damage either, even though it has Antimagic Susceptibility (antimagic field or dispel magic).

[RulesJD]

There is a Sage Advice quote that specifically refers to Animate Object and says the damage is considered indirect and thus non-magical. I can't find it right now but there was a lengthy thread already on this subject. The other cases you're giving are where physical objects are being created by the spell and thus the spell is dealing damage directly, e.g.Cloud of Daggers or Spikestones. The key here is direct vs. indirect. Cases of indirect damage include moving non-magical objects--Catapult, Telekinesis, Animate Object. In the case of conjuring creatures, those creatures have the stats of the original creatures and no special properties to deal magical damage that the creature didn't have and again, this is indirect damage. Shoving someone off a cliff with a repelling EB so they fall and hit the ground, the falling damage is indirect damage and non-magical.

I did find this with a search and it points out that the objects are described as being "non-magical" in the spell description.

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/73349/do-objects-from-animate-objects-count-as-magical-weapons-for-the-purpose-of-ov

They start as non-magical. They then become magical when they are created.

Also, that's not Sage Advice. That's other players working through the rules prior to JC's tweets.

Also, falling damage against bludgeoning immunity creatures still causes damage, despite it being non-magical. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/31/immunity-to-bludgeoning-does-take-damage-from-falling/

Why? Because almost every stat block says "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons" The word weapons is the key phrase here. The Animated Objects aren't weapons. You can't wield them or be proficient in them. I could see an argument for mobs that are immune to just "bludgeoning" damage, like an Ooze that is immune to "slashing" damage regardless of whether it comes from a magical sword or non-magical sword. But for the mobs that are only resistent to non-magical weapons, they're eating those Animate Objects for full damage.

[Dalebert]

They start as non-magical. They then become magical when they are created.

Dude... I made these same arguments in a lengthy thread. You may be able to convince your DM of this or you can rule this way if you're the DM. I ultimately caved to the indirect damage thing due to the Sage Advice tweet that was very clear and the fact that this spell is already powerful enough without it.


Also, that's not Sage Advice. That's other players working through the rules prior to JC's tweets.

I just said I can't find it but it's out there. I bet someone can link it because this was discussed at length fairly recently here.


There is a Sage Advice quote that specifically refers to Animate Object and says the damage is considered indirect and thus non-magical. I can't find it right now but there was a lengthy thread already on this subject.

I linked the other because it was making the same case the same way and it's what came up on a search.


Also, falling damage against bludgeoning immunity creatures still causes damage, despite it being non-magical. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/31/immunity-to-bludgeoning-does-take-damage-from-falling/

Alright. I hadn't seen that but it makes sense.

[mephnick]

Also we played.. lot of things with legendary resistance starting at middle levels.

To be fair, that's not the system's fault, completely changing the abilities of the monsters you face will break the balance of class abilities.

[Segev]

On the subject of sleep, one thing I haven't noticed anybody pointing out is that it operates on current hit points, not maximum. It is a great low-spell-slot finisher, because you can use it to drop a number of creatures that have been hurt.

It also allows for a tactic that's normally inadvisable to be useful: spreading damage around. Usually, you want to focus-fire, because only by killing a foe do you make it stop having full effectiveness in the fight. You can, however, spread some damage around if you know you're real target is just to get them to lower hp so the sleep spell can whammy 1-3 of them.

Opening with a fireball and finishing with sleep can also be a good one-two punch when the enemies are too tough for either to drop on their own.


As for phantasmal force, I suggest illusions that make them think the obvious way out is something that they can try but will fail to do (because it's an illusion), rather than something to scare them into not trying.

For instance, an illusion of a hole in the ground rising up around them, with attendant "falling sensation" as part of it so they think they've falling down (when really the illusion rose up around them), will have them trying to climb OUT of the hole. Since there's nothing to climb, they'll keep scrabbling at thin air and not getting anywhere. To them, the hole's sides are just not letting them get a grip and they keep sliding back down, but they're not going to try to just shoulder their way out of it by going through the wall.

[MaxWilson]

Why? Because almost every stat block says "bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons" The word weapons is the key phrase here.

Check the revised MM. New wording is "nonmagical attacks."

[Sitri]

To be fair, that's not the system's fault, completely changing the abilities of the monsters you face will break the balance of class abilities.

While I haven't read the MM to know percentages that have it, but to my knowledge everything we hit was official content or high quality 3rd party like monster a week. After the fights the DM would often show us the stats. It wasn't like he said, "I am just throwing legendary resistance on this guy. "

I, and apparently my group, are fans of bigger important fights than button mashing through a set number of fights per day.

[Vogonjeltz]

A controller wizard gets a lot of great options, but you're right, they aren't going to affect the whole battlefield anymore. There are some that do...Mass Suggestion, Earthquake, Summons like Animate Object...but those are higher level. Now you have to get a little clever.

As you note with Sleep, creatures have higher HP now, so taking a single creature out with Tasha's Hideous Laughter and then blasting with Firebolts while your party lays into them is a pretty fantastic use of a spell. And yes, in my opinion hordes of weak enemies are better dealt with via damage.

Edit: It's interesting that you call out Sleep as being weak. There are threads devoted to calling it OP.

I thought the same thing (as your edit). The power of sleep is two-fold:
1) It scales better with improved levels than any damage spell.
2) No save, no roll to hit.

Yes, it's an all or nothing spell, but used in the proper context it can be quite good. I'd say context is important. I've seen up-ranked sleep drop 4 enemies at once, which is a meaningful contribution to making an encounter easier. That's damage that isn't incoming and enemies you don't have to worry about until dealing with their friends.


1. Pick up Phantasmal Force. Congrats, you now have an almost guaranteed disabler against any enemy you find because NOBODY has a Int save worth a damn. Make your illusion a thick steal box full of fire and your enemy is going nowhere unless somebody pulls him away from it.

That would be two objects (Box is 1, Fire is 2); the spell only creates a single thing in the targets mind.

For the reasons Dalebert pointed out, a cage is ineffective.