Ruling on the spell phantasm force

[Sir cryosin]

Can you make the illusion were the target is covered in fire. So we're ever he runs he is still on fire. Untell he int check it and can the target make a int check if he belives it to be true?

[Dalebert]

I don't like this but it seems that the spell cannot move, so no. I was starting to be a big fan of this spell until I realized that it's limitations make it's usefulness extremely circumstantial. And the damage, though ongoing, is kinda meh for a concentration spell, especially since they can just step 5 feet away from it. Your best bet is to make it a creature so they'll be afraid to leave it for fear of an AoO, though it can't actually deal one.

[RulesJD]

I don't like this but it seems that the spell cannot move, so no. I was starting to be a big fan of this spell until I realized that it's limitations make it's usefulness extremely circumstantial. And the damage, though ongoing, is kinda meh for a concentration spell, especially since they can just step 5 feet away from it. Your best bet is to make it a creature so they'll be afraid to leave it for fear of an AoO, though it can't actually deal one.

Depends on the creature's size.

If Large or smaller, just make it a completely enclosed box with poison tipped spikes on the inside and a chain holding the creature in place. Unless a creature comes to pull them "out" of the illusion, no even remotely sane creature will try to exit that box. At the very least you get to disable one enemy with it unless they can hit their Int check.

[Flashy]

Depends on the creature's size.

If Large or smaller, just make it a completely enclosed box with poison tipped spikes on the inside and a chain holding the creature in place. Unless a creature comes to pull them "out" of the illusion, no even remotely sane creature will try to exit that box. At the very least you get to disable one enemy with it unless they can hit their Int check.

Why shouldn't another creature come to pull them out though? I mean, that's what literally any PC would do if faced with this situation, why should a random collection of humanoid enemies be substantially stupider than that? You're totally wasting at least one enemy's turn, but I'm dubious about this being a catch-all.

I also tend to rule that in this sort of situation ANY investigate check allows you to overcome the DC, and it strikes me as utterly reasonable that any humanoid enemy trapped in a box full of spikes should use their action making an investigate check to see if they can find a way to escape. If the hit the illusion DC on that investigate check then I'd argue they should be allowed to disbelieve.

[Kane0]

Bound by spiked chains, did that once to great effect.

[RulesJD]

Why shouldn't another creature come to pull them out though? I mean, that's what literally any PC would do if faced with this situation, why should a random collection of humanoid enemies be substantially stupider than that? You're totally wasting at least one enemy's turn, but I'm dubious about this being a catch-all.

I also tend to rule that in this sort of situation ANY investigate check allows you to overcome the DC, and it strikes me as utterly reasonable that any humanoid enemy trapped in a box full of spikes should use their action making an investigate check to see if they can find a way to escape. If the hit the illusion DC on that investigate check then I'd argue they should be allowed to disbelieve.

I said unless an enemy does so, which I imagine they might. Which takes their action. And likely a few opportunity attacks from my party members if they want to just move over and use their action to pull their friend out, who will be resisting to avoid being pulled into the spikes.

Read the description of the spell. No, ANY investigate check does NOT allow you to overcome the DC. Only an Intelligence check allows you to, which is an important distinction. This is a powerful magical illusion and is so strong it can literally kill you with your own thoughts. Yes, if you hit the Investigate check you disbelieve the illusion, that's literally in the spell description. But it takes your action and 99% of monsters are at 0 or negatives to their Int checks, which is why it's such a powerful control spell.

[MaxWilson]

Depends on the creature's size.

If Large or smaller, just make it a completely enclosed box with poison tipped spikes on the inside and a chain holding the creature in place. Unless a creature comes to pull them "out" of the illusion, no even remotely sane creature will try to exit that box. At the very least you get to disable one enemy with it unless they can hit their Int check.

So you're saying that Barbarians get out of the box, right?

[Flashy]

I said unless an enemy does so, which I imagine they might. Which takes their action. And likely a few opportunity attacks from my party members if they want to just move over and use their action to pull their friend out, who will be resisting to avoid being pulled into the spikes.

Read the description of the spell. No, ANY investigate check does NOT allow you to overcome the DC. Only an Intelligence check allows you to, which is an important distinction. This is a powerful magical illusion and is so strong it can literally kill you with your own thoughts. Yes, if you hit the Investigate check you disbelieve the illusion, that's literally in the spell description. But it takes your action and 99% of monsters are at 0 or negatives to their Int checks, which is why it's such a powerful control spell.

But anyone locked in a box is going to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to try to see if they can find a way out of it. It's just the thing you'd do. I don't like the idea that the check has to be specifically one that's looking for illusions because I feel that makes it very difficult to draw a meaningful line about how an NPC should behave in a given scenario. It becomes so hard to adjudicate illusion spells in a meaningful and fair way when you additionally have to decide whether it's fair for an NPC to try to guess whether it's an illusion, especially in a case like Phantasmal Force where the target is supposed to rationalize away anything that indicates the spell is illusory.

If a PC gets separated from the rest of the party I don't want to have to sit around deciding whether or not it's fair to cast Phantasmal Force on them because there's no good way for them to get out without the player deciding that it's an illusion even though the spell description prevents the character from realizing it. Its a dangerous precedent to set, and I really dislike ruling that spells apply differently to players and npcs.

EDIT: This gets doubly difficult because the idea that the spell can restrain anyone is reliant on the spell always reacting in the manner most favorable to the caster. It doesn't support a target trying to cross a bridge, but it does restrain them with illusory chains.

[Dalebert]

If Large or smaller, just make it a completely enclosed box with poison tipped spikes on the inside and a chain holding the creature in place.

Ew! I like that. This came up in another thread and the spikes are a great idea. I can picture some enemies trying to ram their way out of a red-hot steel box but not if there are spikes on the walls.


But anyone locked in a box is going to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to try to see if they can find a way out of it. It's just the thing you'd do.

That's a good point, but it's still a difficult check to make for most creatures. In most cases, I would have the enemy make an investigation, not because they think it's an illusion but just because they'd be desperately seeking an escape.

[Flashy]

That's a good point, but it's still a difficult check to make for most creatures. In most cases, I would have the enemy make an investigation, not because they think it's an illusion but just because they'd be desperately seeking an escape.

Yeah, exactly. It's not guaranteed that they're going to hit the spell DC by any means, but it's still totally reasonable for them to be making SOME kind of investigate check. It'd be absolutely crazy to require that they be specifically looking to see if the spell was an illusion on a spell that explicitly prevents them from realizing it's an illusion.

[RulesJD]

But anyone locked in a box is going to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to try to see if they can find a way out of it. It's just the thing you'd do. I don't like the idea that the check has to be specifically one that's looking for illusions because I feel that makes it very difficult to draw a meaningful line about how an NPC should behave in a given scenario. It becomes so hard to adjudicate illusion spells in a meaningful and fair way when you additionally have to decide whether it's fair for an NPC to try to guess whether it's an illusion, especially in a case like Phantasmal Force where the target is supposed to rationalize away anything that indicates the spell is illusory.

If a PC gets separated from the rest of the party I don't want to have to sit around deciding whether or not it's fair to cast Phantasmal Force on them because there's no good way for them to get out without the player deciding that it's an illusion even though the spell description prevents the character from realizing it. Its a dangerous precedent to set, and I really dislike ruling that spells apply differently to players and npcs.

EDIT: This gets doubly difficult because the idea that the spell can restrain anyone is reliant on the spell always reacting in the manner most favorable to the caster. It doesn't support a target trying to cross a bridge, but it does restrain them with illusory chains.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood. Yes I would let, as the creature's Action, it to make an Investigation check each round. Investigating a way to get out of the box/chains/whatever, and if they succeed, they happen to notice that it's an illusion.

It's still a monstrously powerful control spell. At the very least it causes them to burn an action for that round, and it's an Int check, so any special bonus to Int saves (which most creatures don't have anyways) doesn't apply. It also, if for whatever reason it matters, bypasses Legendary Resistances if they don't want to burn it on saving against the initial part of the spell, which is a save.

[SharkForce]

why would an ally try to drag someone out of the phantasmal force?

only the target can see anything. to everyone else, he's just standing there looking confused, perhaps afraid or helpless, maybe taking a couple steps here and there or something. he's not surrounded by an illusionary box that only he believes is real. there is an illusion of a box in his head which nobody else can see. you don't know what he's seeing, you have no way of knowing that he is being hit with phantasmal force as opposed to, say, crown of madness (which you would specifically not want to be next to them for), you have no reason to know that moving them will have any sort of beneficial effect whatsoever.

[E’Tallitnics]

I don't like this but it seems that the spell cannot move, so no. I was starting to be a big fan of this spell until I realized that it's limitations make it's usefulness extremely circumstantial. And the damage, though ongoing, is kinda meh for a concentration spell, especially since they can just step 5 feet away from it. Your best bet is to make it a creature so they'll be afraid to leave it for fear of an AoO, though it can't actually deal one.

The spell is in the mind of the creature, so of course it can move if the creature moves! Whoever told you it could not was sorely mistaken...

[Sir cryosin]

So could I make it seem he's in well with acid in the bottom the way the wording say he will come up with excuses as to why he can't climb out.

[Segev]

One thing that I'm unsure of, but suspect the answer is "no" to, is whether an Illusionist of 6th level or higher can use his class feature to alter the illusion. I suspect not because it says you have to be able to see it, and it doesn't sound like you CAN see this one.


One fun thing to do, though, might be to make the illusion be of a punji trap opening beneath them, lined with pit vipers. They take damage falling in, feel like they can't get out, and ongoing damage from the snakes.

[Dalebert]

The spell is in the mind of the creature, so of course it can move if the creature moves! Whoever told you it could not was sorely mistaken...

The spell description told me. It is created in a specific space, a 10x10 area in range, and it says the creature takes damage only if it's within 5 ft of the illusion. This clearly implies that they can leave it. Also the spell doesn't say it can move. Meanwhile, there is precedent that if an illusion can move, it will explicitly say so in the description just as Silent Image and Major Image say, and those require an action from the caster.


So could I make it seem he's in well with acid in the bottom the way the wording say he will come up with excuses as to why he can't climb out.


One fun thing to do, though, might be to make the illusion be of a punji trap opening beneath them, lined with pit vipers. They take damage falling in, feel like they can't get out, and ongoing damage from the snakes.

No. The spell creates something in a specific space. A hole is a lack of something. You can't make something disappear with an illusion. You can cover something up with an illusion like making ground over an existing pit.

[Segev]

No. The spell creates something in a specific space. A hole is a lack of something. You can't make something disappear with an illusion. You can cover something up with an illusion like making ground over an existing pit.

What I'm picturing is more the illusion of the hole "rising up" around him. Given that it's a tactile illusion - to him - the "sense of falling" can be provided as well. So what he sees is dirt walls rising up around him as the floor collapses beneath him, revealing spikes "rising from the floor" (but feeling like he's falling down into them as the floor falls apart beneath him). Snakes line the walls.

He's really just sitting there on the ground, possibly falling due to the loss of balance, but probably not. Feeling like he's just been impaled as he fell onto spikes, but he's really still just there on the ground.


I agree: you can't make an illusion of nothingness, which is what a hole is. But when it's all in your mind, you can do a lot to make covering up what's there LOOK like you just fell into a hole.

[RickAllison]

What I'm picturing is more the illusion of the hole "rising up" around him. Given that it's a tactile illusion - to him - the "sense of falling" can be provided as well. So what he sees is dirt walls rising up around him as the floor collapses beneath him, revealing spikes "rising from the floor" (but feeling like he's falling down into them as the floor falls apart beneath him). Snakes line the walls.

He's really just sitting there on the ground, possibly falling due to the loss of balance, but probably not. Feeling like he's just been impaled as he fell onto spikes, but he's really still just there on the ground.


I agree: you can't make an illusion of nothingness, which is what a hole is. But when it's all in your mind, you can do a lot to make covering up what's there LOOK like you just fell into a hole.

Okay, is there any way to twist it so that someone who reaches into the illusion to pull him out looks like a swarm of rats? Because if so, that would be amazing! Make someone think the person who is trying to rescue them is actually a swarm of rats trying to gnaw his arm off, but he is impaled on a spike and can't move, so he tries to hit his rescuer. It would be awesome!

[RulesJD]

I just want to say that I'm happy people are finally appreciating Phantasmal Force as much as I do. As one of the two Int save spells in the game, it is sorely underused.

[Segev]

I just want to say that I'm happy people are finally appreciating Phantasmal Force as much as I do. As one of the two Int save spells in the game, it is sorely underused.

I'm still personally unsure of it. The uses seem somewhat limited, albeit strong when used. Can an Illusionist do anything "more" with it than a non-Illusionist?

[RickAllison]

I just want to say that I'm happy people are finally appreciating Phantasmal Force as much as I do. As one of the two Int save spells in the game, it is sorely underused.

I will point out that I don't see it as that powerful for combat. For utility? Oh, an evil character could literally put someone through hell without leaving any marks. Torture reaches a new level of power when you can twist someone's mind.

[E’Tallitnics]

The spell description told me. It is created in a specific space, a 10x10 area in range, and it says the creature takes damage only if it's within 5 ft of the illusion. This clearly implies that they can leave it. Also the spell doesn't say it can move. Meanwhile, there is precedent that if an illusion can move, it will explicitly say so in the description just as Silent Image and Major Image say, and those require an action from the caster.


Wow, thanks Dalebert!

I never grokked the fact that it's only in the victims head, yet must 'occupy' a physical space within the game environment.

I've always read those as 'physical' limitations of the spell, but not locked to the environment (where they actually do not exist). So you couldn't cast this spell on a creature and make their entire 'point of view' be a completely different visual.

Weird, but I see how the spell works now!

So as long as the affected creature is within the 10' cube the effect can move with them, but if they step out of the cube it...must stay within the cube?

[RulesJD]

I will point out that I don't see it as that powerful for combat. For utility? Oh, an evil character could literally put someone through hell without leaving any marks. Torture reaches a new level of power when you can twist someone's mind.

It's extremely powerful for combat solely because it is an Int save in a world of +brazillion to every save BUT Int. Described correctly it is a great disabling spell that is extremely difficult to overcome, especially at higher levels, and maintains its usefulness because, again, Int save followed by Int checks. It also isn't a charm or some such, so it ignores all those monsters with conditional immunities.

The only downside is that it's extremely DM dependent. If your DM doesn't want to work with you, then it's largely useless. But then again so are most disabling spells.

[E’Tallitnics]

It's extremely powerful for combat solely because it is an Int save in a world of +brazillion to every save BUT Int. Described correctly it is a great disabling spell that is extremely difficult to overcome, especially at higher levels, and maintains its usefulness because, again, Int save followed by Int checks. It also isn't a charm or some such, so it ignores all those monsters with conditional immunities.

The only downside is that it's extremely DM dependent. If your DM doesn't want to work with you, then it's largely useless. But then again so are most disabling spells.

Yes! The first time I saw this used in 5e a Warlock cast it on an Ettin and created a 3rd demonic head under the first two, facing up, and it started arguing with them. Since they like to argue....

It was bloody brilliant! Save after Save was failed by the creature and the spell kept it out of combat for several rounds. Rounds whereas the player was having a ball insulting the 'creature' (DM) with all sorts of jaw dropping comments.

Good times.

[Segev]

I just read the spell, myself, and while it says it must fit within a 10'x10'x10'cube, it doesn't say it's confined to a specific one. It exists in the target's mind. The fact that he can't take damage if he's not within 5' of it just means that, if he perceives it to be 20' away, he's out of its reach, whether of a monster's claws or a fire's (damaging) heat.

The assertion that it cannot move is a strong one. Yes, other illusions specify that the caster can move them about within range, but this one isn't really under the caster's control once created, which would be a reason it isn't spoken of. Heck, the clause of "within range" is even absent; one could contrarily argue that this is meant as a limitation over what might otherwise be allowed: that an illusion could move outside of the spell's range once cast.

I think it fair to say that the illusion can move around if it's of something that should be able to move. A rat swarm can swarm over somebody and follow them. A tiger can stalk its prey. It just doesn't hurt the target if he gets more than 5 ft. from it (which he may well be able to do by, say, flying).

If it were stationary, the rules would say "must remain within a 10 ft. cube," not "must fit." It only doesn't discuss how a caster can move it about because the caster doesn't control it once it's created.

[E’Tallitnics]

I just read the spell, myself, and while it says it must fit within a 10'x10'x10'cube, it doesn't say it's confined to a specific one. It exists in the target's mind. The fact that he can't take damage if he's not within 5' of it just means that, if he perceives it to be 20' away, he's out of its reach, whether of a monster's claws or a fire's (damaging) heat.

The assertion that it cannot move is a strong one. Yes, other illusions specify that the caster can move them about within range, but this one isn't really under the caster's control once created, which would be a reason it isn't spoken of. Heck, the clause of "within range" is even absent; one could contrarily argue that this is meant as a limitation over what might otherwise be allowed: that an illusion could move outside of the spell's range once cast.

I think it fair to say that the illusion can move around if it's of something that should be able to move. A rat swarm can swarm over somebody and follow them. A tiger can stalk its prey. It just doesn't hurt the target if he gets more than 5 ft. from it (which he may well be able to do by, say, flying).

If it were stationary, the rules would say "must remain within a 10 ft. cube," not "must fit." It only doesn't discuss how a caster can move it about because the caster doesn't control it once it's created.
This is exactly how I was thinking the spell worked.

[tieren]

Also the spell doesn't say it can move. Meanwhile, there is precedent that if an illusion can move, it will explicitly say so in the description just as Silent Image and Major Image say, and those require an action from the caster.



To be fair the description says you can create a creature and that it can attack and the victim can take damage from it. It would be a bit weird to believe a still image of creature attacked you.

[Segev]

It's how I think it kind-of has to; it is a weird spell to create so believable an illusion of, say, a griffon that it can hurt the person who is stuck perceiving it with its illusory claws...but that said griffon can't leave the space in which it was created.




Another odd thought: what happens if the 14th-level Illusionist ability is used on a Phantasmal Force? Can it create, say, a wall that is real to only one person?

[Sir cryosin]

So can I create a illusion were the target is on fire and if he moves does he stay on fire because it on him and not fixed to a spot on the ground?

[Icewraith]

"Giant spiked squid tentacles erupt out of the ground and grapple the target" is the one I'm planning on using when it comes up.

[Kane0]

Phantasmal Tentacles of Forced Intrusion

I like the way you think.

[Segev]

So can I create a illusion were the target is on fire and if he moves does he stay on fire because it on him and not fixed to a spot on the ground?

I personally don't see why not; he definitely has reason to engage in that Intelligence(Investigation) roll to see why he can't put it out, though.

It's little different than having a monster follow him around; they all do the same psychic damage.

[busterswd]

Here's the biggest restriction to Phantasmal Force that a lot of people neglect: it doesn't actually change reality, but changes the way the recipient senses and rationalizes reality. Unless you can convince the recipient that they can't or shouldn't try to do something, it doesn't cause action denial.


One fun thing to do, though, might be to make the illusion be of a punji trap opening beneath them, lined with pit vipers. They take damage falling in, feel like they can't get out, and ongoing damage from the snakes.

The way I'd rule this: the victim would take the 1d6 damage from falling into the "pit". However, if he tried to climb out of the pit, it would be extremely easy, because the character is still on flat ground in reality. Moreover, because he'd be trying to get the hell away from the snakes, he'd actively be trying to get out of the pit, making it more likely he'd find a way to stumble out. In other words, he'd take damage from two rounds, but wouldn't even need to investigate to get out; he'd take a couple of steps and be free.

Now, if you made it so the lip of the pit was covered in spikes and the bottom of the pit wasn't covered in snakes and unpleasantness, you could probably keep a creature there for several rounds; they'd have to psych themselves up to lacerate their hands if they wanted to climb out, and they would then get the Int check to investigate after taking 1d6 damage.

Another example: I once had a DM allow a Phantasmal Force a flying creature being stuck in a web midflight, but I (mentally) disagreed with the ruling. The creature would've have flown through it and rationalized that the web wasn't as strong as it looked; moreover, he definitely wouldn't be subjected to restrained, as he wasn't actually restrained. However, if they had blocked off the passage up ahead with webbing and the creature chose to stop to avoid flying into it, that would have worked for me.

[MaxWilson]

The spell description told me. It is created in a specific space, a 10x10 area in range, and it says the creature takes damage only if it's within 5 ft of the illusion. This clearly implies that they can leave it. Also the spell doesn't say it can move. Meanwhile, there is precedent that if an illusion can move, it will explicitly say so in the description just as Silent Image and Major Image say, and those require an action from the caster.

Phantasmal Killer, however, says nothing either way about the phantasm being mobile or immobile. I'm honestly not sure how I'd rule on Phantasmal Force--I'd have to carefully examine the spell text, and/or maybe even actually listen to JeremyECrawford for once, LOL.


I'm still personally unsure of it. The uses seem somewhat limited, albeit strong when used. Can an Illusionist do anything "more" with it than a non-Illusionist?

The classical powergamer description of Phantasmal Force is "do something you'd like to do to an enemy, but can't (because he would save against it, or because you don't have that spell available to you)." For example, summon an Earth Elemental at level 3 to attack him, or Entangle him in living vines like a druid. Actually adjudicating the spell can be sticky for reasons we've seen outlined in this thread (e.g. how do you reconcile the PC's belief in the reality of the Earth Elemental with the player's knowledge that he just took d6 psychic damage instead 2d8+4 bludgeoning damage?) but at least as far as creatures go, roleplaying the victim is straightforward: he should behave in the same way he would if it were a summoning spell instead of an illusion spell, which could mean "blow all my spell slots trying to Smite the creature to death" or "run away at top speed" or "Dodge" or "ignore the creature and go for the summoner".

[RickAllison]

Phantasmal Killer, however, says nothing either way about the phantasm being mobile or immobile. I'm honestly not sure how I'd rule on Phantasmal Force--I'd have to carefully examine the spell text, and/or maybe even actually listen to JeremyECrawford for once, LOL.



The classical powergamer description of Phantasmal Force is "do something you'd like to do to an enemy, but can't (because he would save against it, or because you don't have that spell available to you)." For example, summon an Earth Elemental at level 3 to attack him, or Entangle him in living vines like a druid. Actually adjudicating the spell can be sticky for reasons we've seen outlined in this thread (e.g. how do you reconcile the PC's belief in the reality of the Earth Elemental with the player's knowledge that he just took d6 psychic damage instead 2d8+4 bludgeoning damage?) but at least as far as creatures go, roleplaying the victim is straightforward: he should behave in the same way he would if it were a summoning spell instead of an illusion spell, which could mean "blow all my spell slots trying to Smite the creature to death" or "run away at top speed" or "Dodge" or "ignore the creature and go for the summoner".

Actually, I believe in the text for the spell they specifically mention that the afflicted feels the damage type appropriate to the illusion. A druid in fire would feel he was taking fire damage when he was taking the psychic damage, so the illusion would be preserved on that account.

[MaxWilson]

Actually, I believe in the text for the spell they specifically mention that the afflicted feels the damage type appropriate to the illusion. A druid in fire would feel he was taking fire damage when he was taking the psychic damage, so the illusion would be preserved on that account.

Yes, but the player knows it's not (he has to know so he can apply e.g. Bear Totem resistance correctly), so there's a metagame tension there. Also you've got the damage amount to deal with: an Earth Elemental cannot deal only 3 points of damage, but Phantasmal Force can.

[Flashy]

Actually, I believe in the text for the spell they specifically mention that the afflicted feels the damage type appropriate to the illusion. A druid in fire would feel he was taking fire damage when he was taking the psychic damage, so the illusion would be preserved on that account.

This is 100% a house rule, but this is exactly why I apply resistances and immunities appropriate to the damage type that the creature believes they're taking. Among other things going "you're taking fire damage but it hurts you the normal amount even though you're a red dragonborn, don't ask questions" is a total mess when dealing with PCs.

[MaxWilson]

This is 100% a house rule, but this is exactly why I apply resistances and immunities appropriate to the damage type that the creature believes they're taking. Among other things going "you're taking fire damage but it hurts you the normal amount even though you're a red dragonborn, don't ask questions" is a total mess when dealing with PCs.

The amount will still give it away. If you really want to conceal damage from the players, use AD&D-style illusion damage: keep track of the illusionary damage (it isn't real) and the psychic damage separately. Tell the player about the illusionary damage they've taken, not the psychic damage. When the illusion wears off, report the delta to them so they can adjust their HP appropriately.

[Flashy]

The amount will still give it away. If you really want to conceal damage from the players, use AD&D-style illusion damage: keep track of the illusionary damage (it isn't real) and the psychic damage separately. Tell the player about the illusionary damage they've taken, not the psychic damage. When the illusion wears off, report the delta to them so they can adjust their HP appropriately.

That's actually really clever. I'll have to try that.

[RickAllison]

The amount will still give it away. If you really want to conceal damage from the players, use AD&D-style illusion damage: keep track of the illusionary damage (it isn't real) and the psychic damage separately. Tell the player about the illusionary damage they've taken, not the psychic damage. When the illusion wears off, report the delta to them so they can adjust their HP appropriately.

At that point, the only thing that might give it away is if the illusionary damage manages to take them past 0. That might get a little suspicious...

[Segev]

Here's the biggest restriction to Phantasmal Force that a lot of people neglect: it doesn't actually change reality, but changes the way the recipient senses and rationalizes reality. Unless you can convince the recipient that they can't or shouldn't try to do something, it doesn't cause action denial.Mechanically, it's pretty much a damage spell. It can, however, be used to trick people into not trying things. A phantasmal wall is unlikely to have somebody try to bash it down if, say, they could go around it. A phantasmal bridge might just trick somebody into rushing out into a (real) open chasm. A phantasmal monster might get him to fight it (and, at worst, will do 1d6 psychic damage to him each round while he ignores it). Arguably, a phantasmal monster could be a flanking buddy for a real person, if the victim believes he's flanked. (IIRC, that gives the real person advantage on his attack roll.)



The way I'd rule this: the victim would take the 1d6 damage from falling into the "pit". However, if he tried to climb out of the pit, it would be extremely easy, because the character is still on flat ground in reality. Moreover, because he'd be trying to get the hell away from the snakes, he'd actively be trying to get out of the pit, making it more likely he'd find a way to stumble out. In other words, he'd take damage from two rounds, but wouldn't even need to investigate to get out; he'd take a couple of steps and be free.

Now, if you made it so the lip of the pit was covered in spikes and the bottom of the pit wasn't covered in snakes and unpleasantness, you could probably keep a creature there for several rounds; they'd have to psych themselves up to lacerate their hands if they wanted to climb out, and they would then get the Int check to investigate after taking 1d6 damage.I would argue that the very action he's attempting - scaling the non-existent pit wall - automatically fails. He's not trying to walk through it, so he never does. He instead scrabbles at thin air, thinking he's clawing at dirt and roots, and failing to get anywhere.

I also specifically have the snakes coming out of the walls, not lining the floor, and snapping at him from all sides (for ongoing damage).


Another example: I once had a DM allow a Phantasmal Force a flying creature being stuck in a web midflight, but I (mentally) disagreed with the ruling. The creature would've have flown through it and rationalized that the web wasn't as strong as it looked; moreover, he definitely wouldn't be subjected to restrained, as he wasn't actually restrained. However, if they had blocked off the passage up ahead with webbing and the creature chose to stop to avoid flying into it, that would have worked for me.
I think what more likely "should" have happened is that it would, in fact, rip through the webbing - obviously, it was poorly anchored - but that the webs would still entangle him. He'd spend all his time fighting (non-existent) bindings until he believed he'd burst them. Unless he's somehow tricked or forced to do something he couldn't while bound, he'd not perceive the bindings as breaking. (As a DM, though, I'd probably allow him to roll his Strength check and secretly roll his Investigation check to see if he notices that the "webs" are not, actually, keeping him from moving his arms, and that he's fooling himself. Maybe.)

[Vispiliox]

The spell description told me. It is created in a specific space, a 10x10 area in range, and it says the creature takes damage only if it's within 5 ft of the illusion. This clearly implies that they can leave it. Also the spell doesn't say it can move. Meanwhile, there is precedent that if an illusion can move, it will explicitly say so in the description just as Silent Image and Major Image say, and those require an action from the caster.
It would have to be able to move in place, otherwise a phantasmal creature wouldn't be able to attack the target. If the target got scared and ran away, I don't know that it would be able to follow them and continue to attack though.

A phantasm created to appear as a creature can attack the target.

[strangebloke]

Before you take this spell, talk to your DM about it.

Try to be as non aggressive about it as possible. "This spell has ambiguous wording. This is how I read it. How would it work in your game?"

I would say that it follows the target, and cannot be changed, but behaves according to the rules that the caster defines when it is first cast.

In principle, any effect can be simulated on the target if you're clever enough with the description. It's what I like to call the 'VR' option.

"I cover his whole body with an illusion that simulates him being in the plane of limbo. Light enters his eyes, giving him a 3d vision of limbo. Scents come to his nostrils consistent with the plane of limbo. Illusory noise cancels out incoming noise and provides noise from the plane of limbo. His inner ear tells him he is floating. Etc etc."

[Millstone85]

Ahem... Three posts ago, this thread was in 2016. :smallamused:

[LeonBH]

Can you make the illusion were the target is covered in fire. So we're ever he runs he is still on fire. Untell he int check it and can the target make a int check if he belives it to be true?

Yes, this is possible.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Is it the prevailing interpretation that the phantasm cannot move at all? My group assumed it moves in accordance with its nature. (Actual use: phantasm is of an attacking wolf, which runs up to the target like a real wolf would, not just poofing into place.) It could be argued that since it's a mind figment and not a hologram type illusion that everyone sees, it doesn't have the same default assumptions.

[LeonBH]

Wow, thanks Dalebert!

I never grokked the fact that it's only in the victims head, yet must 'occupy' a physical space within the game environment.

I've always read those as 'physical' limitations of the spell, but not locked to the environment (where they actually do not exist). So you couldn't cast this spell on a creature and make their entire 'point of view' be a completely different visual.

Weird, but I see how the spell works now!

So as long as the affected creature is within the 10' cube the effect can move with them, but if they step out of the cube it...must stay within the cube?

No, this is wrong. The target of the illusion is not a point of origin (like Major Image or Silent Image). It is a creature. Thus, it does not target a space that is a 10ft cube.

The illusion itself cannot take a form larger than a 10ft cube. But that is different than targeting a 10ft cube and creating an illusion there.

For example, PF can create an illusion in a place where the caster does not have line of sight to, as long as they have line of sight to the target. This shows the illusion is not an area effect, as area effects are restricted by the targeting rules.

There is no restriction in place as to its mobility. In fact, if the target rationalizes that the illusion moves, the illusion must move. This happens because PF cannot produce any illogical outcomes from the perspective of the target.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

To DM's, neff this one at your own risk. Bards do not have a lot of fireball like spells and this pushes their combat abilities further down.
On its own a DC 15 intelligence check every round should only hold most creatures for 4 or 5 rounds during which they get what, 14 points of damage.. And it requires concentration.
This CAN incapacitate an enemy. This CAN work for one round then fizzle, this CAN be a wasted turn. Let the Bard possibly shine.

[danpit2991]

One thing that I'm unsure of, but suspect the answer is "no" to, is whether an Illusionist of 6th level or higher can use his class feature to alter the illusion. I suspect not because it says you have to be able to see it, and it doesn't sound like you CAN see this one.


One fun thing to do, though, might be to make the illusion be of a punji trap opening beneath them, lined with pit vipers. They take damage falling in, feel like they can't get out, and ongoing damage from the snakes.




No. The spell creates something in a specific space. A hole is a lack of something. You can't make something disappear with an illusion. You can cover something up with an illusion like making ground over an existing pit.

I have to disagree with Dalebert on this one. the illusion in this case is more of mind affecting magic than a true illusion so he would believe he fell into a pit and was covered in snakes in this instance even though all anyone would see is the affected guy laying on the floor writhing maybe screaming get em off get em off

the vagueness of this spell is both its greatest weakness and its biggest strength, with a more permissive DM it is a great spell with a myriad of uses but with a restrictive/adversarial DM its not worth anything

[danpit2991]

I have to disagree with Dalebert on this one. the illusion in this case is more of mind affecting magic than a true illusion so he would believe he fell into a pit and was covered in snakes in this instance even though all anyone would see is the affected guy laying on the floor writhing maybe screaming get em off get em off

the vagueness of this spell is both its greatest weakness and its biggest strength, with a more permissive DM it is a great spell with a myriad of uses but with a restrictive/adversarial DM its not worth anything


and also DM permissiveness is one of the biggest issues with illusion magic across the board what works at one table is shot down at another, because of the level of interpretation and variety of effects that may be decsribed by illusion magic requres a certian vagueness with the spell descriptions for example everyone knows what magic missle does and is capable of doing not so with illusions as this thread shows so communication with the DM is paramount before attempting to play a illusionist

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive threads that haven't been posted in in the last 45 days.