War Hulk Help

[Yogibear41]

I'm Working on a Big Melee Bruiser Build that makes use of the Warhulk Prestige class, as you know the Class makes you roll all int, wis, and cha(except intimidate) skills as if you had no ranks in them.
For the majority of skills I am perfectly fine with this.
However, on this particular character, I would like him to still have a decent Spot, Listen, and Survival. Outside of pumping my wisdom, buying some magic items, traits, or taking feats like skill focus and alertness, is there anyway to gain a bonus on these three skills other than via skill points.

The best solution would be a prestige class that I could take 1-3 levels in for a decent boost.

Thanks for the Help. :smallsmile:

Oh, I have a negative Charisma mod, so Marshal is a no go too.

[daremetoidareyo]

Totemist Dip is the only thing that can get you bonuses that you can shift around to have all three. Totemist 2 should do ya. But you should probably spend a feat to get some additional essencia.

Hunters Circlet: +2 insight bonus to survival checks, +2 per essencia committed to it.
Great Raptor mask: +2 competence bonus to spot, +2 per essencia committed to it.
Yrthack mask: +4 competence bonus to listen, +2 per essencia
Shadow Mantle: +4 Competence bonus to Listen checks, +2 per essencia
Manticore Belt: +2 enhancement bonus to spot checks, +2 per essencia

You can shape 3 soulmelds and you have 2 essencia. If you have another feat lying around, take shape soulmeld to get a forth and shape a combat oriented soulmeld.

Consider taking bonus essencia for two additional essencia. You can get a +6 to +8 for all three skills, just not at the same time.

Shape hunter's circlet, great raptor mask, and shadow mantle. that should get ya +2 to both survival and spot and +4 to listen. Then you have an additional essencia for either +2 survival or spot. Seeing as how you can shift essencia around, I would take great raptor mask with 2 essencia in it for a constant +4 to spot. I would also bind it to my totem chakra and get evasion, seeing as how enemy spellcasters will be pitching lightning bolts at ya. When you need to hunt, shift your essencia to hunters circlet. If you are being RELIED on for survival, bind hunters circlet to your totem for scent and +4 to survival checks.

[Shadowquad]

A creative solution would be to only meet the PrC requirements when fighting (especially : "must be Large or larger"). A continuous or at-will item of Enlarge Person should allow you to enlarge and squeeze at will (assuming your base race is Medium). When the enlarging item is not active, you will not meet the class requirements and therefore all class features should be disabled, including "No Time To Think".

Of course, it is generally admitted that requirements should only be met when you take the first level of a PrC. Doing otherwise leads to dysfunctional classes like the infamous Dragon Disciple. You could still discuss it with your DM. I personally like the idea of a perfectly rational man that goes stupid when he puts on his "Jacket of Brute-Ogre-Fighting".

[Fouredged Sword]

Another option is to just buy 3 items to boost the skills. You won't ever be great, but a headband with +8 to each shouldn't be THAT expensive.

[Segev]

Another option is to just buy 3 items to boost the skills. You won't ever be great, but a headband with +8 to each shouldn't be THAT expensive.

82*100=6400 gp for one slotted item of +8 to a skill.

Multiply that by 3 to add two more (1.5x2), so 19,200 + 6400 = 25,600 gp for a slotted item of +8 to 3 skills.

If you argue they're heavily related, you can remove the 1.5x surcharge for the second two skills, getting down to 19,200 gp.

A slotless item of +8 to 3 different skills would be 6400x2+6400x.75+6400x.5 = 20,800 gp.

[golem1972]

I like Goliath Barbarian 2 (Spirit lion totem, and mountain rager to become large when raging)
x 3 (usually ranger and fighter for 3 levels total)
Frenzied Berserker 4 (Undying Frenzy)
War Hulk 1
Legacy Champion 10.

Buy off the Goliath LA.
Full BAB, +18 Strength, +Rage and Frenzy. Normal skills until you rage.

They won't like you when you're angry.

[Magma Armor0]

How cheese-tolerant is your DM? A friendly reading of Item familiar (from Unearthed Arcana) may get you around the problem: the skill ranks reside in the item, not in you. So YOU still have 0 ranks, but the Item Familiar can still let you use the ranks you've invested in it.

[ATHATH]

Also, if you're using War Hulk, take one level, then use Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster for better BAB.

[Graypairofsocks]

In Dragon Magazine #348 there are additional curse effects for Bestow Curse and Greater Bestow Curse.
One the effects for Greater Bestow Curse was having the target lose a class ability.

Have someone cast Greater Bestow Curse on your character, and use that effect to make you lose your No Time to Think ability.

[Andezzar]

A creative solution would be to only meet the PrC requirements when fighting (especially : "must be Large or larger"). A continuous or at-will item of Enlarge Person should allow you to enlarge and squeeze at will (assuming your base race is Medium). When the enlarging item is not active, you will not meet the class requirements and therefore all class features should be disabled, including "No Time To Think".

Of course, it is generally admitted that requirements should only be met when you take the first level of a PrC. Doing otherwise leads to dysfunctional classes like the infamous Dragon Disciple. You could still discuss it with your DM. I personally like the idea of a perfectly rational man that goes stupid when he puts on his "Jacket of Brute-Ogre-Fighting".Not again. Outside of CArc and CW there is no general rule that removes class features from PrCs. If you do use the broken rules from one of those books, don't forget there is no way to get back what you lost, even if you again qualify for the PrC.

[LoyalPaladin]

My group actually gives War Hulk 1/2 BAB and drops No Time to Think. It doesn't really hurt the game at all, since a Wizard is still going to smoke an obstacle before you even get in range of it.

[Segev]

Not again. Outside of CArc and CW there is no general rule that removes class features from PrCs. If you do use the broken rules from one of those books, don't forget there is no way to get back what you lost, even if you again qualify for the PrC.

Some of us just like the Schroedinger's War Hulk. It works by a certain reading of the rules, and while you can certainly argue against it, what ultimately matters is the DM's decision.

[Andezzar]

Of course the DM and the players can do whatever they like, but I'd really like to know by which reading of the rules you can get an on-off war hulk.

[Segev]

Of course the DM and the players can do whatever they like, but I'd really like to know by which reading of the rules you can get an on-off war hulk.

Applying the C. Warrior PrC rule to all PrCs, house-ruling the self-disqualifying ones, and not assuming that the features are lost any more permanently than the prerequisites are (and thus that restoring the latter can restore the former).

I'm not going to defend it more strongly than that, because threads have chased themselves around in circles for pages on this subject. I understand the counter-arguments. I don't entirely agree with them, but I understand them. Explaining them won't change my mind about this being a valid way to read it.

[Andezzar]

Ah OK, you meant houseruling a lot of stuff, I thought you meant you could do that within the rules.

[Draconium]

Ah OK, you meant houseruling a lot of stuff, I thought you meant you could do that within the rules.

... Did you even read what he said?


Applying the C. Warrior PrC rule to all PrCs, house-ruling the self-disqualifying ones, and not assuming that the features are lost any more permanently than the prerequisites are (and thus that restoring the latter can restore the former).

I'm not going to defend it more strongly than that, because threads have chased themselves around in circles for pages on this subject. I understand the counter-arguments. I don't entirely agree with them, but I understand them. Explaining them won't change my mind about this being a valid way to read it.

Emphasis mine. The only houserules in place are the ones that keep classes like Dragon Disciple from self-disqualifying. The rest of it is about reading it in such a way as to mean that when you regain the prerequisites, you regain the class features - a perfectly legal reading of RAW.

[Andezzar]

... Did you even read what he said?My post was in response to post 12 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20379794&postcount=12), not post 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20379914&postcount=14) that you quoted.


Emphasis mine. The only houserules in place are the ones that keep classes like Dragon Disciple from self-disqualifying. The rest of it is about reading it in such a way as to mean that when you regain the prerequisites, you regain the class features - a perfectly legal reading of RAW.No, there is no rule in either CArc or CW that allows you to regain whatever you lost. So you cannot read the rules that way. Just as selectively applying those broken rules to classes outside the two books, allowing characters to regain class features/special abilities is a houserule.

[Segev]

Ah OK, you meant houseruling a lot of stuff, I thought you meant you could do that within the rules.

Technically, the issue with it is that interpreting it that way requires house-ruling OTHER PrCs.

[Draconium]

My post was in response to post 12 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20379794&postcount=12), not post 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20379914&postcount=14) that you quoted.

Except Segev never mentioned houseruling until post 14, which was also the post right before yours, and it seemed that you had previously responded to post 12 - it's a natural assumption.


No, there is no rule in either CArc or CW that allows you to regain whatever you lost. So you cannot read the rules that way. Just as selectively applying those broken rules to classes outside the two books, allowing characters to regain class features/special abilities is a houserule.

The exact wording in CW is: "If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class." While you are correct in saying that there is no rule to regaining class features by RAW, it seems to me RAI would assume that once you meet the requirements again, you may regain the features.

Not that it matters, as has been pointed out (even by you) that these are rules specific to CW and CArc, and as such, you can simply choose not to allow these sourcebooks, and therefore not apply the rule to War Hulk - which would mean that as long as you meet the requirements (in this case, large size) when you enter the class, you won't lose the class features.

[Andezzar]

Except Segev never mentioned houseruling until post 14, which was also the post right before yours, and it seemed that you had previously responded to post 12 - it's a natural assumption.The way I read the posts, I thought he said he could make "Schrödingers War Hulk" by RAW in post 12. Then he clarified in 14 that he used houserules to achieve a result that he and his group liked.


The exact wording in CW is: "If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class." While you are correct in saying that there is no rule to regaining class features by RAW, it seems to me RAI would assume that once you meet the requirements again, you may regain the features. That may be RAI but it definitely is not RAW. Reading the rules you can only get the RAW. The RAI is pure guesswork. So no, you cannot read the rules as giving class features back. you have to make a houserule to allow that.


Not that it matters, as has been pointed out (even by you) that these are rules specific to CW and CArc, and as such, you can simply choose not to allow these sourcebooks, and therefore not apply the rule to War Hulk - which would mean that as long as you meet the requirements (in this case, large size) when you enter the class, you won't lose the class features.Even if you use those books the CW rules do not apply to the War Hulk by RAW because it is not classified as a "Martial Prestige Class". The Primary Source rule takes care of the CArc rules.

As I said before, I do not intend to berate anyone for playing D&D "wrong", I was merely curious as to how someone managed to achieve that behavior of PrCs by RAW. Turns out no one did.

[Segev]

What I said was that you can read the RAW to make it work. But, a consequence of doing so is that you have other PrCs which then self-disqualify, and would need house-ruling.

The Schroedinger's War Hulk works fine per that reading of the RAW, with no house ruling.

It isn't a GOOD reading of the RAW, however, because it then requires house ruling a number of other PrCs.

More practical solutions abound, but they are inevitably house ruled.

[Andezzar]

How can you read the rules as giving class features back when the character again qualifies for a PrC? That is not in the rules.

How can you read the rules as applying to classes from other books? That's not in the rules either. In fact the primary source rules prevents the authority of any source book over the DMG.

[Segev]

How can you read the rules as giving class features back when the character again qualifies for a PrC? That is not in the rules.

How can you read the rules as applying to classes from other books? That's not in the rules either. In fact the primary source rules prevents the authority of any source book over the DMG.

Like I said, this has been argued in circles. I know you won't be convinced. I'm not going to argue it. You asked for my reasoning. I've given it. You do not find it persuasive; this is fine. You're welcome to go dig up other threads that discuss this in more circular, pervasive detail.

[Graypairofsocks]

In Dragon Magazine #348 there are additional curse effects for Bestow Curse and Greater Bestow Curse.
One the effects for Greater Bestow Curse was having the target lose a class ability.

Have someone cast Greater Bestow Curse on your character, and use that effect to make you lose your No Time to Think ability.

Trait Removal (from Serpent Kingdoms) is a 5th level spell can remove an ability (for 1 hour per caster level) from a target.
However it takes 1 hour to cast.