Where would you take this character?

[rx2web]

I'm 3 years into an Eberron campaign. I just hit level 9 (for the second time, stupid vampire level loss...). I'm trying to plan out where to go with the character as I continue to level up. What would you do with this character as a base? He's a Spy/adventurer for Breland and has been heavily weighted towards, Sleight of hand, hide, move silently, tumble and balance. I've mostly avoided magics till now but the story has opened up Psionics recently. and Tome of Battle stuff is disallowed. What would you do with this character for levels 10-20?

STR 12
DEX 20
CON 13
INT 17
WIS 14
CHA 12

Level and CLass
1 Rogue
2 Rogue
3 Rogue
4 Rogue
5 Rogue
6 Rogue
7 Rogue
8 Fighter
9 Assassin

Thanks for your advice and suggestions in advance!

[nedz]

High level DnD is mainly about spells, unless the campaign was specifically structured to avoid this - most aren't.

So you are stuffed, and it's probably too late to acquire magic now.

What does the rest of the party look like ? Just out of interest.

[Inevitability]

High level DnD is mainly about spells, unless the campaign was specifically structured to avoid this - most aren't.

So you are stuffed, and it's probably too late to acquire magic now.

Rogues and assassins get UMD. Put some ranks in it next time you level and buy a few cheap wands and scrolls. Taking more levels in assassin should also give some magic.

[rx2web]

High level DnD is mainly about spells, unless the campaign was specifically structured to avoid this - most aren't.

So you are stuffed, and it's probably too late to acquire magic now.

What does the rest of the party look like ? Just out of interest.

We have a Sorceress, we have a Bard, and a floating fighter type that sometimes is there and sometimes isn't. Our most recent fight was against an Essence Reaver... that was a tough fight.

Someone had mentioned Chameleon as a prestige class.

[Flickerdart]

See if you can retrain yourself from Rogue into Psychic Rogue. Propose to your DM that your character has discovered an innate spark of psionics within him, you can go on a journey of self-discovery, and so on.

[ATHATH]

See if you can retrain yourself from Rogue into Psychic Rogue. Propose to your DM that your character has discovered an innate spark of psionics within him, you can go on a journey of self-discovery, and so on.
If you do this, try to replace your Assassin levels with levels of Ebon Saint.

[Lhurgyof]

Telling somebody that their character they've been playing for 3 years should change classes is pretty rude, and it is pretty ****ty advice.
You're an assassin, and therefore evil, correct? That might help a little.
Chameleon is very good, if you wanted to go down that road, you'd be fine.

With such a high intelligence, factotum, swashbuckler, or Warblade would all make good dips.

What feats do you currently have?

[rx2web]

You're an assassin, and therefore evil, correct? That might help a little.
Chameleon is very good, if you wanted to go down that road, you'd be fine.

What feats do you currently have?

Our DM has waived the "evil" nature of assassin. I'm a spy. sometimes killing people is a requirement.

Feats acquired various ways in game:
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Superior Touch
Toughness
Nymphs Kiss
Combat Reflexes
Vexing Flanker
Adaptable Flanker

[OldTrees1]

I would consider the Trapsmith prestige class or the Chameleon prestige class if you are looking to add some casting. Trapsmith has the stronger casting faster but Chameleon is more versatile.

[Flickerdart]

Telling somebody that their character they've been playing for 3 years should change classes is pretty rude, and it is pretty ****ty advice.
Pump your brakes, friendo. Psychic Rogue is as close to Rogue as you can get without calling it an alternate class feature, and since OP's game recently opened up psionics, it's an excellent time to consider a pivot into crystaltown. The way D&D works, jumping into the spellcasting game at level 10 is about 10 levels too late, and retraining is a perfectly legitimate way to make sure that the new abilities are level-appropriate.

[ATHATH]

Pump your brakes, friendo. Psychic Rogue is as close to Rogue as you can get without calling it an alternate class feature, and since OP's game recently opened up psionics, it's an excellent time to consider a pivot into crystaltown. The way D&D works, jumping into the spellcasting game at level 10 is about 10 levels too late, and retraining is a perfectly legitimate way to make sure that the new abilities are level-appropriate.
+1

It's even mostly INT based, so the OP won't have to change his stats.

[rx2web]

Things I've considered:

Retraining Classes
Retraining Feats
Various Prestige Classes
Various Base Classes

What it comes down to really is stick with Rogue or a very close facsimile and play it to the end, or take a left turn at Albuquerque and do something wild?

That is the one thing with 3.5 is there are a bazillion combinations. I've only been playing D&D for the 3 years so a relative newbie. I'm always learning something new that someone brings up. So to me no suggestion is out of place, keep them coming! And thanks to everyone who's chimed in so far.

[Janthkin]

I've only been playing D&D for the 3 years so a relative newbie. I'm always learning something new that someone brings up. Let's fall back to basics then:
1) What do you like about your current character's abilities?
2) What shortcomings in your abilities really bother you? (As opposed to limitations that make the game interesting.)

[nedz]

I was thinking of suggesting Ur Priest, but it has high requirements which you would have needed to plan for.

Chameleon is a viable option, and you probably have the skills already. You would just need to snag the Able Learner feat.
You would, eventually, want a +2 Wis item if you wanted 5th and 6th level Divine spells - and a spell-book for learning any arcane spells - your friends can't help you here, but maybe you have looted some in the past ?
It will impact your skills though.

Dire_Stirge mentioned UMD, you should already have some ranks here and more always help. Rogue 10 for Skill Mastery(UMD) is one idea, but it is 3 more levels.

Beguiler 1 / Unseen Seer 10 would give you skill points, more sneak and some spells - so this is an option.

I'm not an expert on psionics, so maybe someone could point you at a possible psionic PrC - but most will likely require some psi powers to enter.

[Aleolus]

I was thinking of suggesting Ur Priest, but it has high requirements which you would have needed to plan for.

Chameleon is a viable option, and you probably have the skills already. You would just need to snag the Able Learner feat.
You would, eventually, want a +2 Wis item if you wanted 5th and 6th level Divine spells - and a spell-book for learning any arcane spells - your friends can't help you here, but maybe you have looted some in the past ?
It will impact your skills though.

Dire_Stirge mentioned UMD, you should already have some ranks here and more always help. Rogue 10 for Skill Mastery(UMD) is one idea, but it is 3 more levels.

Beguiler 1 / Unseen Seer 10 would give you skill points, more sneak and some spells - so this is an option.

I'm not an expert on psionics, so maybe someone could point you at a possible psionic PrC - but most will likely require some psi powers to enter.

He can't snag able learner. Unless his dm will let him retrain a feat for it, it can only be taken at first level

[Flickerdart]

What it comes down to really is stick with Rogue or a very close facsimile and play it to the end, or take a left turn at Albuquerque and do something wild?
The system doesn't really support that sort of thing well without retraining. It's too late for you to stop being a spy and roguish type, but you have different avenues for how you approach the task.

If your guy has worked well for 10 levels, then clearly what he does is relevant to the campaign. So you'll be interested in things that make you better at those things. A retrain into psychic rogue unlocks potent psionics, but they all do basically the same thing you do now - skulk around without being seen. Depending on sources allowed, you can also indulge in one of the subsystems that is dip-friendly. ToB is out, but you can become a decent binder with a 1-level dip and the Improved Binding feat, or pick up a bit of Incarnum with a dip into Totemist or Incarnate and some feats to unlock the more desirable chakras. A single level of Cleric gives you two domains (plus Knowledge, for a Cloistered Cleric) and Turn Undead for powering divine feats.

Note that as you go up in the levels, sneaking will be less and less useful. Powerful monsters have things like Blindsight (which you need Darkstalker to avoid) or straight-up Mindsight or Lifesight, which are basically foolproof. If you don't yet have a way of handling things that know you're there, find that way soon.

If you want to become a caster without committing to a primary casting class, there's an exotic option that allows you to retain your stealth - a level of Divine Crusader (Animal Domain) followed by Prestige Ranger. You get all of the Ranger's amazing spells from the Spell Compendium on your list, plus everything from the Animal domain. Divine Crusader 1/Prestige Ranger 10 finishes you off with 7th level spells while keeping 6+INT skill points per level and maxed-out stealth.

Speaking of the prestigious base classes, an assassin qualifies for Prestige Bard. The casting backbone isn't as good as Divine Crusader, but assassins get quite a few great spells in the Spell Compendium, and taking 11 levels of Prestige Bard brings you up to 4th level assassin and bard spells. Plus the amazing social skills and songs!

[nedz]

He can't snag able learner. Unless his dm will let him retrain a feat for it, it can only be taken at first level

Hmm, forgot that detail. Well that probably kills that idea.

The basic problem the OP has is that 3.5 assumes that you plan you character's career from the outset. It's a very common mistake new players make to assume that they can fix things up later.
Of course, it's not immediately obvious that spells are so powerful either.

[Janthkin]

Speaking of the prestigious base classes, an assassin qualifies for Prestige Bard. The casting backbone isn't as good as Divine Crusader, but assassins get quite a few great spells in the Spell Compendium, and taking 11 levels of Prestige Bard brings you up to 4th level assassin and bard spells. Plus the amazing social skills and songs!And, if you wanted to, a little Prestige Bard opens you up for Sublime Chord, which gets you higher-level spells than would otherwise be accessible.

[Flickerdart]

And, if you wanted to, a little Prestige Bard opens you up for Sublime Chord, which gets you higher-level spells than would otherwise be accessible.
It might be tight without rebuilding, though. To get 3rd level assassin spells, he would need to take 6 levels of prestige bard, which leaves 5 levels of sublime chord before level 20. You could certainly do worse - that comes out to 7th level spells - but it's a lot of work and a very narrow turnaround.

There are other options, of course - he could take prestige bard 1/assassin 4, squeezing in an extra level of sublime chord at the cost of Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage +2, and 5 uses of bardic music (but with Improved Uncanny Dodge and more SA). Or he could convince his DM that Versatile Spellcaster lets him satisfy the 3rd level spells thing, which means prestige bard 4 gets in and 7 levels of sublime chord deliver unto him delicious 8th level spells. Or prestige bard 1/assassin 2, for 8 levels of sublime chord.

[rx2web]

Let's fall back to basics then:
1) What do you like about your current character's abilities?
2) What shortcomings in your abilities really bother you? (As opposed to limitations that make the game interesting.)

1) In most of the games i've played (Not D&D) i've almost always been a rogue type. This character started as a thief, but his back story is that he was being trained by a mentor who worked for the Dark Lanterns. He was trained on the side unknown to the organization... a secret weapon if you will. His mentor disappeared mysteriously and part of his character arc is finding him or what happened to him. He's my James Bond, Sydney Bristow, Ethan Hunt type character. I like being sneaky, subterfuge, working in secret but highly skilled. So the Rogues skill monkey nature works for me. I like his dex and int and playing off those.

2) As I mentioned psionics have been introduced. The Inspired are the big bad agents that my character is working against. He's great with Reflex saves... but Will saves, that's a problem. Everyone was given a couple Power points as part of a story arc so he does have a connection to that. As we progress i've seen that perhaps straight up rogue while kicks butt in a fight with sneak, there are many story and other elements that a number of spells and mental powers might be helpful to play through for flavor reasons. In our game story can trump RAW.


He can't snag able learner. Unless his dm will let him retrain a feat for it, it can only be taken at first level

I'm fortunate that my DM will also waive the first level requirement. The idea would be to take Able learner as my 9th level feat. (I just leveled and have 2 weeks before we game to make my level of assassin official)

****

These are some great suggestions though!

[rx2web]

Note that as you go up in the levels, sneaking will be less and less useful. Powerful monsters have things like Blindsight (which you need Darkstalker to avoid) or straight-up Mindsight or Lifesight, which are basically foolproof. If you don't yet have a way of handling things that know you're there, find that way soon.


That's good information to know. I'll have to look into this.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you can get the DM to waive the race and house requirements, 2 levels of silver key is a bunch of fun. The crafty hands ability allows you to disable things from a distance. Assuming you beefed your hide skill, that means that you can sabotage your enemies from afar. City of stormreach has sabotaging armor and weapons DCs on page 140.

Another option is to ride assassin to level 7 and then swap into nar demondinder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2) for your final levels.

Hidden talent can get you into war mind (XPH) which is ok. Or pyrokineticist (XPH), which is ok.

However, the best bet is to see if you can retrain any of your rogue levels into psychic rogue (or take hidden talent or wild talent) and go into ebon saint (ComPsi). 2 levels in and you can steal thoughts. It's got your flavor all over it.

[Lhurgyof]

If you can nab favored enemy arcanist (acf in complete mage) or favored enemy evil (through stalker of karesh or Harper paragon), you could take the nemesis feat and be able to detect your favored enemy, even those that are invisible or through walls.

Sounds like a great way for a spy to follow targets or tell if someone is coming.

If you're human, you need to be evil to take favored enemy: humanoid human. But your DM could waive that.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you're human, you need to be evil to take favored enemy: humanoid human. But your DM could waive that.

This was true in 3rd Edition, but 3.5 removed it.

[WeaselGuy]

What about Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d)?

[rx2web]

I think this is where I'm going to end up with this one:

Level and Class
1 Rogue
2 Rogue
3 Rogue
4 Rogue
5 Rogue
6 Rogue
7 Rogue
8 Fighter
9 Martial Monk
10 Martial Monk
11 Rogue
12 Chameleon
13 Chameleon
14 Chameleon
15 Chameleon
16 Chameleon
17 Chameleon
18 Chameleon
19 Chameleon
20 Chameleon

Here's the reasons why:
The two levels of Martial Monk will give me a +3 to all saves, as well as making him a threat unarmed. Kung Fu Master for a feat will let me move my INT to my AC replacing INT for Monk WILL features. One more level of rogue to get it to the 8th level and Uncanny Dodge. Then finish out the levels with 9 chameleon. The DM has agreed to flip out the divine casting with Psionic which doesn't need the prep time of the arcane to cast. The nice thing about the chameleon casting is that your caster level for arcane and the divine(psionic) is 2x your level! So even though i'm starting late with the spells, and yes it only gets up to level 6 spells. The effective caster level for them when I will be lvl 20 is is 18. with chameleon's double Aptitude, I could in a day do both Psionic AND Arcane at the same time. get the +4 to wisdom from both plus the classes normal save progression giving a huge boost to will, and powers like mad. Or mix and match fighter/rogue abilities with that of a caster.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions! They were very insightful and helpful.