A question about "one hand free"

[thecrimsondawn]

Im working my hardest to make this build work - 2monk(MMS), the rest of the levels in Warder (DD archetype) DD is basically about duel wielding or using double weapons while monks MMS archetype is about having more then one style up at a time.
ANYWAY
I am trying to get Crane style and Archon style to work together as I see great synergy with the Warders class skills. One of the crane style feats Crane Wing says "When fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks."
Clearly if I am using two weapons that is out of the question, but what about a double weapon such as a quarterstaff? It may have been 3.0 or something really old, but I seem to recall not being able to use even touch spells (as a cleric) if you where using a shield and a weapon, but you could if you had a 2 hander, so I am wondering if that is a thing or not.
If thats a no go, any ideas to get around this?

[Geddy2112]

There is an FAQ about free actions

Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?

Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).

As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).

So you could let go of the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand at the end of the turn, and grab on the start of your next to use it as a weapon. You would not be able to make attacks of opportunity unless you had both hands on it though.

If you are going quarterstaff, you could use the quarterstaff master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quarterstaff-master-combat) feat and solve the problem there.

[Siosilvar]

Taking a hand off of a two-handed weapon is a free action. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qda)

Theoretically, you could fight defensively while using the weapon two-handed, then take a hand off and benefit from having a free hand. However, I believe free actions can only be taken on your turn, so you'd have to take attacks of opportunity with your unarmed strike instead of with the staff.

[thecrimsondawn]

There is an FAQ about free actions


So you could let go of the 2 handed weapon with 1 hand at the end of the turn, and grab on the start of your next to use it as a weapon. You would not be able to make attacks of opportunity unless you had both hands on it though.

If you are going quarterstaff, you could use the quarterstaff master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quarterstaff-master-combat) feat and solve the problem there.

That is part of the issue tho. I am trying to find a way to be able to make AoOs AND have a hand free. While my 2 levels of monk would allow me to always have an unarmed attack ready for use (or PoW's superior unarmed combat feat), its still not going to help later on when my weapon is enchanted.

How about we look at this from another side.
Dervish Defenders skill "Two-Weapon Defense" says "While wearing light armor or no armor, wielding a weapon in each hand (or using a double weapon), and not using a shield heavier than a buckler, the warder may add her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her Armor Class."
In this case, does the unarmed strike count as a weapon wielded? Since you cant really wield your fist I would say this is a long shot, but I need to find some method of getting this to work. 4dodge AC is nothing to scoff at.
<small edit>
Would holding my 2 handed weapon in one hand still count as me wielding that weapon for the sake of this class skill?

[Extra Anchovies]

Whether unarmed strikes are wielded is very unclear. Personally, I recommend eschewing consistency in regards to whether a character is or is not "wielding" their unarmed strike, and instead let the player decide whether they want to count as wielding a weapon or not for each case that depends on it. It's more fun and less finicky that way.

I also recommend not getting hung up on using your unarmed strike because you're a monk. A cestus deals an average of 1 less damage, has a better crit range, and can be enchanted. If you do still want to use an unarmed strike every now and then, just use your feet.

[thecrimsondawn]

Whether unarmed strikes are wielded is very unclear. Personally, I recommend eschewing consistency in regards to whether a character is or is not "wielding" their unarmed strike, and instead let the player decide whether they want to count as wielding a weapon or not for each case that depends on it. It's more fun and less finicky that way.

I also recommend not getting hung up on using your unarmed strike because you're a monk. A cestus deals an average of 1 less damage, has a better crit range, and can be enchanted. If you do still want to use an unarmed strike every now and then, just use your feet.

right, I am trying to avoid using unarmed strike as much as I can, while at the same time somehow counting as duel wielding or double weapon wielding.
The goal right now is to have both http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat and http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/dervish-defender-warder-archetype up at the same time.

<update>
I found one way, but for aesthetic reasons I dont really want to do this one.
If I take 2 levels in alch, I can grow an extra arm. It would work well with my INT score, but if I did that I would really need to blow a feat for another discovery to get a second arm as well.
I am going to take a look at summoner now to see if I cant find something there I can use.
<update 2> Well summoner WOULD work...if I did not have to use the Eidolons BAB. That would a small issue early levels and a HUGE one later levels.
I wonder if there is some other class that has an archetype that gives limbs shape shifting or something, hmm...

[Red Fel]

Okay. Let's back up. Here's what I suggest.

First, let's look at Crane Wing. It applies when fighting "with at least one hand free." I think it's safe to assume that, if you can make an unarmed strike with your hand, you have at least one hand free. Fair?

So, let's see if the Dervish Defender archetype is compatible with one-handed fighting. Let's break it down.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An unarmed strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/strike-unarmed) is a simple weapon. DDs are proficient with simple weapons. So far, so good.
Disciplines: Not relevant.
Bonus feat: Two-Weapon Fighting. Can you TWF with unarmed strikes? Yes. Further, unarmed strikes are considered light weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/strike-unarmed), thus reducing the penalty for using them while TWFing.
Two-Weapon Defense: While wielding a weapon in each hand, or using a double weapon, you gain the bonus. Unarmed strikes are weapons, so if you have them and another weapon, you're wielding a weapon in each hand. Can you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand? No, unless it's one size smaller. But in that case, use a double weapon, let go of the weapon, and re-grasp the weapon.
Dervish Defense: Makes no mention of weapon.
Shield of Blades: When fighting unarmed or with a weapon in each hand from certain categories (one of which is "close," which includes unarmed strikes), gain the bonus.
Grace of Blades: Again, doesn't specify; you just have to be holding 2+ weapons or using a double weapon.
So, you can TWF with a weapon and unarmed strikes, or use a double weapon, let go, and re-grasp. And honestly, I think you're better off using a one-handed weapon and your unarmed strikes if this is going to be an issue; one weapon plus unarmed strikes keeps you firmly in RAW territory, without worrying about free actions. If you're concerned about the magical power of your fists (or lack thereof), get a Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/body-wrap-of-mighty-strikes) and enhance accordingly.

I hear that you're trying to avoid unarmed strikes. I'm just not 100% sure why.

Interestingly, if you would prefer to use swords, consider taking the Swordplay Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/swordplay-style-combat-style) feat instead. It's a similar bonus, but it works with blades.

[Extra Anchovies]

right, I am trying to avoid using unarmed strike as much as I can, while at the same time somehow counting as duel wielding or double weapon wielding.

Well, the Cestus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/cestus) (mentioned in my previous post, but have a link for completeness's sake) probably meets those criteria - it gives a penalty to fine-motor tasks performed with the hand that's wearing it, which makes it pretty hard to argue that it isn't meant to also leave that hand free :smalltongue:

[thecrimsondawn]

@Red Fel
That is a good break down and a valid argument that I can use. I am less trying to avoid unarmed strike as much as make the build I stated work, and by your wording, it looks like no real changes are needed to be made. I would prefer to avoid unarmed damage for weapon damage due to a much stronger late game, but its not that large of an issue if I have to /or rather can use it properly.

I am finishing up a test build of this using 2alch(mindchem) 2monk(MMS) and 1Warder(DD), using the feat at level 3 for an extra arm (giving me 2). I dislike the Aesthetics of this, but if I take Feral Mutagen at level 5, that gives me 2 claws, and a bite (all at -5) with my main and offhand weapons (at -2 each). The BAB takes a couple hits, but the number of attacks is impressive, plus I get a couple nice spells due to synergy with INT from warder and alch.
The downside I see to this test (not finished yet) is its a bit more feat intensive then I would like it to be. I need to grab dodge to get the final crane style feat, and then I need 4 more feat slots for the Archon Style chain. This is on top of the feat used for the extra arm at level 3, and feral mutagen at level 5. This eats up most of my feat slots.

Looking at my feat options, I may just take "Take the Blow" instead of archon style since it does more or less what I want it to do anyway.
<edit>
Since I am taking mindchem with this test, the first two Kirin Style feats may play really nice. I wont have the ability to pick them up till the end levels, but that also means I will have a nice INT mod around +8 or more (16 extra damage at will as a swift is not bad)