Elder champion; any good uses for the lvl 20 capstone of the OoA paladin?

[Corran]

So I was going through the various different paladin oaths, in an effort to see how different oath features combine with the rest of the class, and how you can make the most out of them (ie select the appropriate weapon, feats, etc).

Then I had a look at the 20 level capstone ability of the oath of the ancients paladin, elder champion that is. More particularly what intrigues me is the ability to cast spells that normaly require 1 action, as a bonus action. The disadvantage on saves if the enemy is within 10 feet of the paladin makes this power ideal for spell that target saving throws and take one action to cast (eg the cantrip poison spray, ideal range assuming we want to profit from the disadvantage, and we get to cast it with our bonus action instead of using an action on it; ofc a paladin does not automatically have access to poison spray). So I was wondering, has anyone find any good ways to use this feature? Assuming 20 level OoA paladin, we are restricted in the spells an OoA paladin gets (class and oath spells), as well as spells possibly gained from race (racial spellcasting, eg drow, tiefling, high elf, etc) and feats such as magic initiate. Multiclassing is obviously out. Any ideas of how to best use this feature then?

[Mith]

High Elves get one free cantrip, correct? So that is one way to get the poison spray cantrip.

As for actual Paladin Abilities, I am AFB, so cannot add to this at the moment.

[eastmabl]

You could also take the Magic Initiate feat, which opens you up to the wide wide world of cantrips.

In addition to poison spray (high elf), you could take Magic Initiate for the cleric and get Sacred Flame. Walk up to your enemy, hit it with your stick twice and bathe the enemy in holy flames as a bonus action.

[Shining Wrath]

Magic Initiate feat would get you 2 cantrips IIRC. And a first level spell.

So for the price of one feat, have Firebolt, Poison Spray, and Chromatic Orb.

EDIT: Shadow Monk'd.

[Corran]

The trouble with the high elf cantrip is that it is going to be wizard-based, so it will use int if a roll is required. Perhaps a cantrip like blade ward or one of the sgac cantrips could do the job. Such cantrips dont benefit from the disadvantage on the enemy's savinfg throws.

As for magic initiate, I would have to choose sth from bard, sorcerer or warlock, for the same reason, meaning that I would want sth that is charisma based.

It seems to me that this feature is very gish-y, sth like the EK's warmagic feature, that allows him to make an attack right after a cantrip in the same round. Ofc elder champion offers more, but then again it is a lvl 20 ability. Still, it seems like it is very gish-y.

Question: The ability specifies that it has the described effect for paladin spells. Are spells gained either from race or feats like magic initiate, considered to be paladin spells for me? If not, that limits our choice to spells only from the class spell list and the oath spells.

[TheRedTemplar]

Question: The ability specifies that it has the described effect for paladin spells. Are spells gained either from race or feats like magic initiate, considered to be paladin spells for me? If not, that limits our choice to spells only from the class spell list and the oath spells.

Unfortunately, they are racial spells, not paladin spells, and thus the feature only works with the paladin's natural spell list and oath. In addition, Magic Initiate lets you pick from a class's spell list, but they still count as spells of that class, meaning that, among other things, they aren't Paladin spells. Pally spells are good enough though, since any spell that takes an action is now a bonus action. Any spell.

If you want to go for Damaging AoE's, which Oath of Ancients has plenty of, then you can use the bonus action to spam Moonbeam, Ice Storm, or Destructive Wave when you need to rain down divine justice on the heads of the poor saps who though picking a fight with you was a good idea. You could also use this bonus action to buff or heal yourself/others, or even use Raise Dead/Revivify if you really needed to.

I'm pretty sure the intent of the capstone, with the forced disadvantage on saves vs your spells and the bonus action cast, was to make you the ultimate gish. You even get the ability to regenerate, which is just icing on the cake. Nevermind the amount of damage something like bonus action Ice Storm of Destructive Wave could add on to your basic attacks, along with both spells making it more difficult to move and escape you (one makes difficult terrain IIRC and the other has a chance to knock them prone, giving you advantage). Keep in mind you still get to make both attacks while you do this, making it that much more awesome (suck on that, valor bards and eldritch knights!).

This is honestly my favorite capstone in 5e, bar none. It's just so awesome. You even get to change your physical appearance for the time you transform, which I like for the role play purposes. And thats not taking into account all the other oodles of joy you got for going all the way in OoA in the first place (refuse to die once per day, resistance to all spells, etc).

[Corran]

Unfortunately, they are racial spells, not paladin spells, and thus the feature only works with the paladin's natural spell list and oath. In addition, Magic Initiate lets you pick from a class's spell list, but they still count as spells of that class, meaning that, among other things, they aren't Paladin spells. Pally spells are good enough though, since any spell that takes an action is now a bonus action. Any spell.
Yeah, suspected as much. Asked this in the RAW thread as well and the answer I go suggests the same. Shame. It would be really great if you could spam poison spray or acid splash on top of you attacks for that one encounter in which you use the elder champion feature. I ve got another idea on how to best use this feature, which I will analyse at the end of my post.


If you want to go for Damaging AoE's, which Oath of Ancients has plenty of, then you can use the bonus action to spam Moonbeam, Ice Storm, or Destructive Wave when you need to rain down divine justice on the heads of the poor saps who though picking a fight with you was a good idea.
I dont think it works that good with moonbeam, as that spell requires an action in the following round to move it, which action I dont think qualifies as actual spellcasting so that you can use a bonus action instead for the purposes of moving it around. It could work if you intended to spam monnbeam, but I dont think that is a good and effective use of spell slots.
It could work really well with destructive wave, as the damage is good and the prone condition even better. Best used at the round after activating elder champion, so you can use your melee attacks before the enemies can get up from prone. Even better if melee allies play before the enemies' turns.
Ice storm is tricky, as it is not party friendly, so it requires a very specific positioning (enemies within 10 feet and no allies in the AoE) to pull it off. Dont think it will come up often.


You could also use this bonus action to buff or heal yourself/others, or even use Raise Dead/Revivify if you really needed to. True. The problem is that the paladin lack many buffs, and most of them require concentration.


I'm pretty sure the intent of the capstone, with the forced disadvantage on saves vs your spells and the bonus action cast, was to make you the ultimate gish. You even get the ability to regenerate, which is just icing on the cake. Nevermind the amount of damage something like bonus action Ice Storm of Destructive Wave could add on to your basic attacks, along with both spells making it more difficult to move and escape you (one makes difficult terrain IIRC and the other has a chance to knock them prone, giving you advantage). Keep in mind you still get to make both attacks while you do this, making it that much more awesome (suck on that, valor bards and eldritch knights!).
You would be indeed the ultimate gish if you had access to some cantrips, so that you would have a certain damaging bonus action that spends no resources. Essentially what I said in the start of my reply, about having a cantrip (preferably one that forces a save) to spam on top of your attacks.



This is honestly my favorite capstone in 5e, bar none. It's just so awesome. You even get to change your physical appearance for the time you transform, which I like for the role play purposes. And thats not taking into account all the other oodles of joy you got for going all the way in OoA in the first place (refuse to die once per day, resistance to all spells, etc).Yeah, it's a pretty good capstone and a very nice oath on the whole, I like it too. As far as optimizing this feature, here is what I came up with:




Optimizing elder champion
Halfelf, choose the variant that gives you a cantrip, pick BB. (can work with high elf too, but halfelf is a better choice for palys)
Take the feat warcaster.

First round of combat: Use your action to activate elder champion, move up to your enemy, use your bonus action to cast command on the enemy, the enemy rolls the save with disadvantage. Command the enemy to flee. If the enemy fails his save, we use BB as an opportunity attack, dealing [weapon die]+ str mod + d8 (IDS) + 7d8 (BB) + whatever other adds to our damage (from spells to magic items). So we inflict all that damage with just our reaction, and the enemy even loses his turn. All at the cost of a 1st level spell slot, and a bonus action. Meaning that we can continue doing that in the following rounds (as long as we have spell slots to use for command), and on top we can use whatever we want with our action (save for casting spells, as we use ourr bonus action to cast a spell). And the enemy rolls with disadvnatage his save. How awesome is that?!!! Even against enemies with legendary resistances, that means that we can very quickly burn through those resistances (due to disadvnatage on saves, meaning that they should fail more often that succeeding), and we can burn through the legendary resistances at the cost of 1st level slots and a bonus action, meaning that we are still attacking with our action.
Can we do any better than that?

[Arkhios]

First round of combat: Use your action to activate elder champion, move up to your enemy, use your bonus action to cast command on the enemy, the enemy rolls the save with disadvantage. Command the enemy to flee. If the enemy fails his save, we use BB as an opportunity attack, dealing [weapon die]+ str mod + d8 (IDS) + 6d8 (BB) + 2xcha mod (BB) + whatever other adds to our damage (from spells to magic items).

How do you get charisma modifier to your BB (=Booming Blade, right?), let alone twice, as a pure paladin?
The cantrip doesn't add spellcasting modifier to damage, GFB does that, but only once and only on the secondary target.

edit: A side-question regarding BB's and GFB's secondary effect.
Are they considered as damage from an ongoing spell, or damage from an attack? Meaning, will they multiply on a critical hit?

E.g. If I critically hit with GFB, would the secondary target likewise get Xd8 x 2 + Mod?

[Foxhound438]

OoA being the obvious "tanky" paladin subclass, you're probably best off casting defensive spells for the most part.

Ensnaring strike gets a lot better for an already great spell, even if the casting time is unchanged. This goes for all of your smites too.

Any Protection from X spell will become way better

Command has some decent potential

set up Aura of Vit while still pushing damage is okay, even if you lose one turn of use

Elemental weapon if you have nothing better to do with a 5th level slot and don't have a +3 weapon

Banishment is certainly good, situationally.

Death Ward as a bonus action so it takes 2 hits to down you no matter what.

That last one is really good since you gain 10 hp at the start of your turn even if you're at 0, so to really put you down it has to be KO->hit->hit, or else you just stand back up again. With a high AC (you're level 20, AC under 21 would be amazingly bad) it might take 5 swings to pull that off, and if you add in a drop to one it becomes a lot harder. The first such event is free due to the L15 feature, but being able to do it again 3 times and still push damage is really good.

[Foxhound438]

Optimizing elder champion
(words)

i personally wouldn't go PAM for OoA, but it's certainly viable, and it both uses up your bonus action and consistently gets reaction attacks (even if not on the BBEG), and that might be better in most cases, especially since it frees up race options. basically human variant for PAM.

Shield master also heavily contends for your bonus action and reactions, since advantage from knocking them prone is really good, as is "I block the meteor with my shield to take no damage instead of half of the 40d6 you're about to roll for everyone else on the map" (yep, meteor swarm is a dex save, and SM can apply if you succeed your save, and you can definitely do a dex build since you're going full pally)

Neither is optimized for the feature but are arguably better on their own.

That said, i do like your idea. I think your calculation for damage is off, you don't get cha mod to cantrips from pure pally, but it's still a decent use of both the feature and your actions.

[Corran]

How do you get charisma modifier to your BB (=Booming Blade, right?), let alone twice, as a pure paladin?
The cantrip doesn't add spellcasting modifier to damage, GFB does that, but only once and only on the secondary target.


That said, i do like your idea. I think your calculation for damage is off, you don't get cha mod to cantrips from pure pally, but it's still a decent use of both the feature and your actions.
Yeah, the damage is wrong, I though the damage figures for BB were the same as with GFB. I will correct it in my post. Thanks.


edit: A side-question regarding BB's and GFB's secondary effect.
Are they considered as damage from an ongoing spell, or damage from an attack? Meaning, will they multiply on a critical hit?

E.g. If I critically hit with GFB, would the secondary target likewise get Xd8 x 2 + Mod?
I am not sure tbh, I've seen people saying that it will, but it does not sit that well with me. I'll probably ask in the RAW thread.

Edit: I asked in the RAW thread (Q 281), and this is the answer I got :
For BB, yes on the attack, no on the lingering effect. That's because the lingering effect triggers its own damage roll that's separate from the attack.

For GFB, yes to the target, no to the second target. That's because the wording of "Critical Hit" specifies, "…the target". Singular, not plural.

Seems like a solid answer. So a crit does not affect the damage of the secondary effect of BB/GFB.

i personally wouldn't go PAM for OoA, but it's certainly viable, and it both uses up your bonus action and consistently gets reaction attacks (even if not on the BBEG), and that might be better in most cases, especially since it frees up race options. basically human variant for PAM. Yeah, totally agree with you. PAM is a grat option but I would probably go S&B with an OoA paladin. It just seems to fit better his action economy. Btw, as for what I sugggested, you could always go with human variant instead of halfelf, and pick magic initiate as you bonus feat. It all comes down to if you prefer +2 con over an extra cantrip and an extra 1st level spell that you can cast 1/day. Oh, put the racial feature in the scale to have the whole picture.

Alternative build
On the other hand, now you got me thinking. Human variant with the spell sniper feat as the bonus feat. He picks BB from that feat, and say that he also picks PM instead of str+2 or cha+2, so that one of these two stats will be 18 instead of 20. Now this build can still pull off the elder champion + command + warcaster + BB combo, and he can use BB as an OA more reliably and far more often during normal play. Ofc besides spell sniper (variant human), warcaster and polearm master, the rest 3 ASIs go to the ability scores (sentinel, resilient con, and shield master become nigh obsolete given our current feat selection, too much overlap), with perhaps only mounted combat as a last alternative to an ASI, but this feat as how the mount is used is very DM and campaign dependent.

Shield master also heavily contends for your bonus action and reactions, since advantage from knocking them prone is really good, as is "I block the meteor with my shield to take no damage instead of half of the 40d6 you're about to roll for everyone else on the map" (yep, meteor swarm is a dex save, and SM can apply if you succeed your save, and you can definitely do a dex build since you're going full pally)

Neither is optimized for the feature but are arguably better on their own.
Shield master is a bad feat for single class paladins imo. Or at least a worse choice given your other options. The only reason that I would consider taking this feat with a single class paladin, would be if the group consisted primarily of melee combatants, and if there was not better character to take it. I was considering S&B halfelf (or human with magic initiate) dexadin for this OoA build, though see my thoughts above regarding human variant spell sniper PM warcaster, it might afterall be a better build than the hlafelf S&B dexadin, will have to give it some thought.