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View Full Version : How much character customization options is too much, or too little?



xBlackWolfx
2016-02-02, 05:43 PM
I've recently been looking at dead simple rpg, a very minimalistic D&D-esque system (well, the system doesn't bear much resemblence to D&D outside of its race and class options). I decided to make my own game based off of this, with the simple mechanics but a lot wider race selection and I wanted the system to be classless.

However, 12 races later and a handful of abilities, I'm thinking that the game may be getting a bit much. The races themselves are about as minimalistic as you can get. There's nothing to them but stats, and two paragraphs of information, one explaining the race's appearance and the other its culture. And besides that, the number of abilities I would need to make for a classless system honestly is kinda daunting.

I feel like my system is getting to be too much, but at the same time I feel the dead simple rpg is lacking in depth. Some people actually claim its more of a wargame than an rpg in how minimalistic everything is (even microlite 20 looks complicated in comparison, at least their rules required more than a page to explain).

I'm thinking about ditching the classless thing and just going for a system with highly simplified classes, so that I can easily generate more if I want. Essentially, each class would start with 2 abilities that improve as they level up. They can aquire a few more as they level (such as the ability to resurrect other characters), and there's also some multiclassing options (mostly just taking a 'feat' that is a weaker imitation of an ability from another class), and maybe they can take one 'feat' to make their character a bit more distinct, but even then at max level characters won't really be that complicated, with only really 3 maybe 4 different special actions they can do. For example, a necromancer character can raise the dead to fight for him and inflict diseases on others (which are primarily a de-buff). At first, minions they raise will be weaker than they were in life, and even then they only raise less things. As they level however their undead will become stronger, eventually even being better than they were in life, and they'll be able to raise more things, possibly up to things as big as dragons. Note that they can have more than one undead at a time. Their diseases will also become stronger as they level. Eventually they'll gain the ability to resurrect characters (including themselves). Eventually, you progress to becoming an immortal lich. Of course, once you get there all you'll be able to do is summon hordes of undead and make everyone really sick, and of course cast a resurrect spell which honestly is pretty crappy as far as res spells go (other classes have better versions with less penalties).

Anyway, that gives you an idea of how characters will work. They'll always remain simple, they'll just become stronger over time. I feel like though that there isn't much for progression with characters. Yeah, characters will have attributes and a small list of skills (maybe) to choose from, and they can dabble in other magical disciplines if they want, but outside of that you really have no control over the progression of your character. And like I said, he/she will always be dead simple.

And having classes be so limited in scope causes problems. How do you do other magic classes which may have a wider variety of spells available to them? Right now all I've managed to think of are summoners who can conjure a single powerful minion and some gear their summon or other characters can use (they're obviously inspired by magicians in everquest, note that I've never actually played that game, I've just been reading a lot about it). And warlocks can also summon powerful minions, but they actually have direct damage spells too. Yeah, okay there's some variety in what they can summon (thinking of making it so the player can essentially custom-make their own summon, with their rank in summoning determining the pool of points they can draw from to make this thing), but in the end you'll only ever have 2-4 spells. What if I want to create more of a traditional wizard who actually has a wider variety of effects to choose from?

And is this enough really? How much is too little, and how much is too much? I honestly don't know.

xBlackWolfx
2016-02-02, 08:03 PM
Let me guess, there are no responses because no one wants to read my initial post, even though its literally as minimalist as I could get it. If I typed everything I wanted, it would've been 10 times as long, literally.

Okay then, let's see if I can simplify this a bit more.

In my system, characters start off with 2 abilities that get better as they level. They gain an additional one later on. Also, characters can choose 'feats', some of which can give them extra abilities. There are 4 attributes, and there may or may not be a skill system. If there are skills, they'll be very minimalistic since a lot of the things will be covered by classes anyway. This all means that besides their stats going up, characters won't really change much over time in terms of what they can do.

Is this too little? Should there be more ways to customize your character? Or is it okay for a character to essentially just start off with a couple abilities that really don't change in function as they level?

johnbragg
2016-02-02, 08:11 PM
Let me guess, there are no responses because no one wants to read my initial post, even though its literally as minimalist as I could get it. If I typed everything I wanted, it would've been 10 times as long, literally.

Okay then, let's see if I can simplify this a bit more.

In my system, characters start off with 2 abilities that get better as they level. They gain an additional one later on. Also, characters can choose 'feats', some of which can give them extra abilities. There are 4 attributes, and there may or may not be a skill system. If there are skills, they'll be very minimalistic since a lot of the things will be covered by classes anyway. This all means that besides their stats going up, characters won't really change much over time in terms of what they can do.

Is this too little? Should there be more ways to customize your character? Or is it okay for a character to essentially just start off with a couple abilities that really don't change in function as they level?

I think that part of the reason for lack of responses is it's not 100% clear what you want to do, that requires you to build a new system from scratch.

What does Dead Simple RPG, or 3X, or 4E or 5E or GURPS not give you that you want in your game?

xBlackWolfx
2016-02-02, 08:49 PM
dead simple: not enough customization
3.x: too complicated
4.x: crappy system
5.x: costs money
gurps: complicated and costs money

But mostly, I want a system that actually represents my fantasy world. Rather than having to do it the other way around: design a fantasy setting based off of the workings of someone else's rpg.

edit: What I'm asking is, how many options are too many.

Let's say you had an rpg, where everyone could only play pre-made characters, who all progressed in a very specific way that players had no control over. Obviously, most would see that as having too little customization.

But let's say you had a game which had a lot of customization options, so many that it literally took you hours to read through the entire list of options available to you. Obviously, having that many rules, most of which wouldn't be used anyway in game (obviously the players won't make use of the majority of the options offered to them), that's excessive.

But where's the line exactly? How many options are too much, and what is the minimum considered mandatory?

johnbragg
2016-02-02, 09:25 PM
dead simple: not enough customization
3.x: too complicated
4.x: crappy system
5.x: costs money
gurps: complicated and costs money

But mostly, I want a system that actually represents my fantasy world. Rather than having to do it the other way around: design a fantasy setting based off of the workings of someone else's rpg.

edit: What I'm asking is, how many options are too many.

Let's say you had an rpg, where everyone could only play pre-made characters, who all progressed in a very specific way that players had no control over. Obviously, most would see that as having too little customization.

But let's say you had a game which had a lot of customization options, so many that it literally took you hours to read through the entire list of options available to you. Obviously, having that many rules, most of which wouldn't be used anyway in game (obviously the players won't make use of the majority of the options offered to them), that's excessive.

But where's the line exactly? How many options are too much, and what is the minimum considered mandatory?

WEll, that depends on your fantasy world. You need enough options to cover the archetypes that you'd expect to find there.

If you're playing Star Wars, you need a Jedi option. If you're playing Firefly, you don't. But you do need a courtesan option.

IF I were doing the project, I'd start with the 3 basic archetypes warrior, mage and skillmonkey. I may want classes for three blends, gish, arcane trickster and skilled warrior. I also want wild versions of the three archetypes to fill barbarian--druid--ranger roles. So that's maybe nine. I like the 3X customization, and might well find I'm eliminating some of the classes and reducing them to what Pathfinder would call archetypes--there might not be enough room between Warrior and Thief to fit a blend class.

tsj
2016-02-03, 03:31 AM
An interesting ideer for this could be to
somehow make the 3 generic classes
in the DMG? in to one generic class,
that is able to become somewhat
like any of the existing classes...
?

TheYell
2016-02-03, 11:03 PM
Well, "minimalist" would be an Avalon Hill board game. Every unit would have a melee rating, a magic rating, and a move rating. The archer would get a little "R" on his token to indicate Ranged attacks. So the Wizard unit would move in range of the Fighter unit, and apply his 4 magic against the fighter's 0 magic on the 4-0 column of the to-hit table. Then if the Fighter was not routed or eliminated he would move to melee range and apply his 6 melee against the wizard's 1 melee on the 6-1 column of the to-hit table.

No description at all. Just math. Wouldn't even have health points, as the system assumes a binary functional/wrecked setup. Were you hit? Did it stop you? Then take another turn with full effect.

That's a venerable and successful game system. Sounds like you have more than that in your game, which is fine. It depends on what you're aiming at. If you want something that could be learned in an afternoon, you want it simple.

RatElemental
2016-02-03, 11:29 PM
My two copper on how you could accomplish a wizard with lots of spells in the system described in the first post would be to take a page from the summons ability you described. Make an ability called spellcraft or what have you, give the player a pool of spell points to work with, and they design a spellbook using them.

I'm imagining a preset list of effects. You spend points to add a blank spell to your book, with the price going up based on how many spells you have in it already. Then you add effects to the spell, the cost going up based on the base cost of the effects and the number of them in the spell. Then you can spend more points to increase the numerical effects (damage, healing, etc.) of the spell. As you level up, you can add more spells with the points you keep getting, but the only thing you can do to existing ones is keep buffing the numerical effects.

If applicable, there could be penalties to lower the point cost, like more restrictive targeting requirements (touch instead of ranged, etc), longer cast times, negative effects for the caster and more expensive extras (money/exp) to cast.

What do you think, too complicated?


Edit: I figured I could do an example spellbook with my system using a few arbitrary (i.e. probably horribly imbalanced) numbers.

Let's say Mage McWizardington is designing his book. He's starting at level 5, so he has 15 points to play with.

He decides he wants a classic fireball spell, so he adds a spell to his book (1 point), the damage effect which he declares will do fire type damage (3 points), and he makes it an area spell instead of a single target spell. It will hit everything within one square of where it hits, so that's another 2 points (I just went with 1/2 of the number of extra squares hit). He then spends 1 point to increase the damage from 1d4 to 1d6. That's 7 points.

Next he decides he wants a spell he calls Stonefist, so he spends 2 points to add a second spell to his book, then adds the damage effect which will do bludgeoning damage (3 points), and wants to give it a chance to stun the target (1 point for the base cost of the effect, +2 for the base cost of the condition, +1 because it's the second effect of the spell) and makes it a touch spell rather than a ranged one (-4 points). He's got 3 points left overall, so he spends 2 to increase the stun chance by 10% (costs 2 because of the base cost of the condition), and 1 to make the damage 2d4 instead of 1d4.