Clone and Wish interaction

[CircuitEngie]

I've done a bit of searching, and I can't find an answer. Maybe those more familiar with the higher level spells and Wish can help.

Scenario: A very powerful wizard has both the Clone and Wish spell. As any very powerful wizard would do, he has a Clone stashed in a safe place, which has reached maturity. Later, he casts Wish to create a keep which results in him being unable to cast Wish again.

Finally, he chokes to death on his stew one night. The Clone spell activates and his soul transfers to the Clone successfully.

Q) Can the wizard's soul in the new clone body cast Wish?

[SharkForce]

no. he is still the same person.

[Spectre9000]

no. he is still the same person.

Is the limitation placed on his soul or body? If his soul, then by that count, he is the same person. However, if he can't cast it due to it physically altering his body in some way to never be capable of it again, gaining a new body could circumnavigate it.

[SharkForce]

Is the limitation placed on his soul or body? If his soul, then by that count, he is the same person. However, if he can't cast it due to it physically altering his body in some way to never be capable of it again, gaining a new body could circumnavigate it.

why would it be placed on your body? your body isn't what casts the spells. if you magic jar into someone else's body, you can cast only the spells you had. if someone else were to magic jar into your body, they would only be able to cast the spells they had.

the only possible exception might be creatures that can cast wish as an innate ability. since those are all outsiders, who last i checked don't have separate souls and bodies (though that was previous edition canon and i haven't seen it explicitly stated in 5e), that doesn't really change anything.

[FinalJustice]

Little bit off topic, but you can use Simulacrum to circunvent Wish consequences. No need to kill yourself over it, really.

[Spectre9000]

Little bit off topic, but you can use Simulacrum to circunvent Wish consequences. No need to kill yourself over it, really.

Simulcrum would imply the limitation for wish is on your body if it can cast wish, as it is without a soul. Furthermore, the inability to cast wish is caused by physical stress as per the description on Wish.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

SIM Wishing was kinda confirmed at one point by a dev as something they didn't think would happen but works.

I'll try to find it.

Essentially they were saying that they wrote rules and didn't think "it maybe people would use this with something else".

You know, like 3e and 4e never existed.

[SharkForce]

Simulcrum would imply the limitation for wish is on your body if it can cast wish, as it is without a soul. Furthermore, the inability to cast wish is caused by physical stress as per the description on Wish.

where does it say a simulacrum doesn't have any sort of soul?

[Spectre9000]

where does it say a simulacrum doesn't have any sort of soul?

It's an illusion. Unless imaginary things are somehow granted souls, which I would say is on you to prove, Simulacrum doesn't have a soul.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It's an illusion. Unless imaginary things are somehow granted souls, which I would say is on you to prove, Simulacrum doesn't have a soul.

Don't make me link you to South Park, I think they established that imaginary things are REAL.


:smalltongue:

[SharkForce]

It's an illusion. Unless imaginary things are somehow granted souls, which I would say is on you to prove, Simulacrum doesn't have a soul.

a simulacrum is far more than just an illusion. it is a creature created using an illusion spell, but the fact that it does not work like any other illusion should be enough to make it obvious that it is not the same thing as a programmed image or invisibility spell. it is definitely not imaginary; if a simulacrum stabs you, or punches you, or casts a lightning bolt on you, you cannot simply disbelieve it. the simulacrum is very real, and the things it does are very real.

[Spectre9000]

a simulacrum is far more than just an illusion. it is a creature created using an illusion spell, but the fact that it does not work like any other illusion should be enough to make it obvious that it is not the same thing as a programmed image or invisibility spell. it is definitely not imaginary; if a simulacrum stabs you, or punches you, or casts a lightning bolt on you, you cannot simply disbelieve it. the simulacrum is very real, and the things it does are very real.

A Simulacrum is an illusion made up of small amounts of real things, which serve to make it "real-ish," or to use the exact wording, "partially real." This spell requires a lot of physical materials to achieve this "real-ish" state. It is still an illusion, still subject to the commands of the caster. It also cannot learn, nor ever regain spell slots, and is by default weaker than the creature it's an illusion of. The reason the Simulacrum can do these things is due to all the materials used to create the illusion. It is still an illusion, comprised of those materials, and it is those materials that allow it to interact physically, and cast spells at the command of the caster. To use current culture, you're trying to argue Synths from Fallout 4 have souls, cause they appear human. The Simulacrum is an illusion that appears real because it has real components comprising the illusion. Additionally, there is not a single spell that has ever been in D&D to my knowledge that allows a wizard to actually create a soul; animate objects, conjure creatures, and make realistic illusions, sure, but not the creation of souls. If Wizards could do this, they'd be the Gods of D&D. Therefore, Simulacrum has no soul.



Regardless of all this talk of Simulacrum, the original question was about Wish.
The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can’t be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn’t 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each o f those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.

The stress affects your physical strength and deals damage to you, thus resulting in a 33% chance you're no longer capable of casting it again. This is a physical affect, not a mental one, which is obvious due to your Strength being reduced, not your intelligence, wisdom, or charisma. Wish leaves you physically hurt and exhausted, not mentally.

[SharkForce]

who says the wizard is *creating* a soul to make a simulacrum? wizards make golems which are animated by (last i checked) elemental beings, but that doesn't mean they create those beings ex nihilus. heck, simulacrum used to require a reincarnation spell to get the most mileage out of it (which wizards used to be able to cast), to give it a "vital force". that is, you needed to use a spell that transplants a soul into a different body.

and generally speaking, the things you're describing don't make things "not real". no, the simulacrum isn't as powerful as the original. most likely, neither is a typical orc. is the orc not real? the simulacrum doesn't learn. generally speaking, neither does an ant or a bee. are they not alive? are they somehow less real? do they lack souls?

and what about those materials? do snow or powdered ruby have the inherent capacity to cast spells or fight like a skilled warrior? how about the little bits of the creature you're duplicating? do they have the knowledge of a powerful wizard or a skilled thief?


you can certainly rule that a simulacrum has no soul (it definitely has no capacity for learning, i'll grant that). but it is definitely real, and there isn't really any firm rules basis for declaring that it either has or doesn't have a soul.

edit: a finger of death spell strikes your soul, and tries to destroy it. nevertheless, the damage is dealt to your body. the fact that you are physically exhausted does not mean that only your body was exhausted.

[JackPhoenix]

snip

I would argue that Simularcum DOES have a soul, despite being illusion and not necromancy. Or at least, piece of the soul...caster's, that's why you can have only one at a time

[Gwendol]

The simulacrum, despite being a partially real creature, does not appear to have a soul. If reduced to 0 HP
it reverts to snow and melts instantly.
If it had a soul, it would be possible to resurrect the simulacrum, which you can't. Also, the simulacrum does not hold part of the caster's soul either.

[PoeticDwarf]

S/he can't cast it again. No, not even then

With reincarnate, or another spell as true resurrection also not.

Please stop talking about simulacrum and make another tread for that

[Segev]

Personally, I think the 33% chance of never being able to cast it again is an idiotic limitation. A much better one would be something you could recover with time or effort, but of arbitrary difficulty (so the DM essentially has to give you a quest). It would also be more in theme with 5e's "DM empowerment" philosophy.


For example, if the spell required a "Genie's Heart" as a non-expended material component, but destroyed it when the "exhaustion" clause was activated, and the Genie's Heart is an object that requires a great deal of effort to obtain...

[Spectre9000]

Personally, I think the 33% chance of never being able to cast it again is an idiotic limitation. A much better one would be something you could recover with time or effort, but of arbitrary difficulty (so the DM essentially has to give you a quest). It would also be more in theme with 5e's "DM empowerment" philosophy.


For example, if the spell required a "Genie's Heart" as a non-expended material component, but destroyed it when the "exhaustion" clause was activated, and the Genie's Heart is an object that requires a great deal of effort to obtain...

No reason the DM can't rule that in accept in Adventurer's League.

[Segev]

No reason the DM can't rule that in accept in Adventurer's League.

Indeed, and I might suggest it to any DMs under which I play. I'd never really looked into the simulacrum->wish trick before, but it looks like it really is as simple as spending your wish for a simulacrum of yourself (costing you no material components, per wish), and then having the simulacrum cast wish for whatever you want. It's never casting another 9th level spell again, anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Moreover, you want to use your 9th level spell on wishing for a simulacrum of yourself every day, anyway. Lets you stockpile a hoard of spell slots, and even have them change out what spells they have prepped!

...this is probably nothing new to anybody else. Sorry, just...had to write it out. x_x

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Personally, I think having level loss replace never casting wish again might be an idea. Sure, they've taken xp costs and such out of this edition, but hey, it's wish.

[SharkForce]

Indeed, and I might suggest it to any DMs under which I play. I'd never really looked into the simulacrum->wish trick before, but it looks like it really is as simple as spending your wish for a simulacrum of yourself (costing you no material components, per wish), and then having the simulacrum cast wish for whatever you want. It's never casting another 9th level spell again, anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Moreover, you want to use your 9th level spell on wishing for a simulacrum of yourself every day, anyway. Lets you stockpile a hoard of spell slots, and even have them change out what spells they have prepped!

...this is probably nothing new to anybody else. Sorry, just...had to write it out. x_x

not quite.

if you wish for a simulacrum of yourself, you no longer have your level 9 slot when the simulacrum is made. you have to pay the gold for an actual casting of a simulacrum spell.

alternately, if you have two casters, one can make a simulacrum of the other.

[Segev]

not quite.

if you wish for a simulacrum of yourself, you no longer have your level 9 slot when the simulacrum is made. you have to pay the gold for an actual casting of a simulacrum spell.

alternately, if you have two casters, one can make a simulacrum of the other.

You don't even need two cooperative casters. One just needs to know the other exists and is high enough level to cast wish. Since wish ignores the need for material components, you don't need to get the body parts from the other guy.

[SharkForce]

You don't even need two cooperative casters. One just needs to know the other exists and is high enough level to cast wish. Since wish ignores the need for material components, you don't need to get the body parts from the other guy.

simulacrum has a range of touch.

[Spectre9000]

You don't even need two cooperative casters. One just needs to know the other exists and is high enough level to cast wish. Since wish ignores the need for material components, you don't need to get the body parts from the other guy.

I believe the general use of Simulacrum involves casting it, while you're at full spell slots, then having it cast simulacrum on you after you've rested (to replenish the 7th level slot), along with wish. Each resultant simulacrum, could cast another simulacrum of you, each capable of producing more simulacrum, and having more wish slots, creating a self-perpetuating cycle. Costs 1.5k gp per simulacrum, but using a wish to get a 25k gp item is one hell of a return on investment. One wonders, though, how a wizard manages to send orders down a virtually infinite chain of simulacrums.

[Segev]

I believe the general use of Simulacrum involves casting it, while you're at full spell slots, then having it cast simulacrum on you after you've rested (to replenish the 7th level slot), along with wish. Each resultant simulacrum, could cast another simulacrum of you, each capable of producing more simulacrum, and having more wish slots, creating a self-perpetuating cycle. Costs 1.5k gp per simulacrum, but using a wish to get a 25k gp item is one hell of a return on investment. One wonders, though, how a wizard manages to send orders down a virtually infinite chain of simulacrums.

Is it general consensus that the simulacrum is created with exactly the current status of the being it emulates?

[Spectre9000]

Is it general consensus that the simulacrum is created with exactly the current status of the being it emulates?

I haven't looked too much into the shinanigans people get into with simulacrum, but the spell states it's created with the statistics of the creature it copied, with half the health. See below.


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature’s hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.

[Segev]

I haven't looked too much into the shinanigans people get into with simulacrum, but the spell states it's created with the statistics of the creature it copied, with half the health. See below.


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature’s hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.


I'm more looking at expended resources, such as spell slots (implied in the claim that the simulacrum lacks an available 9th level spell slot if you create it of yourself using a wish), sorcery points, hit points, superiority dice, etc.

Is it created with full resources, or with whatever the original has at the moment of (or just after) casting?

[Vogonjeltz]

I've done a bit of searching, and I can't find an answer. Maybe those more familiar with the higher level spells and Wish can help.

Scenario: A very powerful wizard has both the Clone and Wish spell. As any very powerful wizard would do, he has a Clone stashed in a safe place, which has reached maturity. Later, he casts Wish to create a keep which results in him being unable to cast Wish again.

Finally, he chokes to death on his stew one night. The Clone spell activates and his soul transfers to the Clone successfully.

Q) Can the wizard's soul in the new clone body cast Wish?

"The clone is physically identical to the original and has the same...abilities" - PHB 222.

So, no, he's still burned out. You get a new body, not a new character.\


Please stop talking about simulacrum and make another tread for that

I think it's invariable that Simulacrum gets brought up anytime Wish gets brought up, but I agree with your point that it is its own topic.

[Malifice]

Little bit off topic, but you can use Simulacrum to circunvent Wish consequences. No need to kill yourself over it, really.

Creating a self aware AI... armed with a wish spell?

http://orig02.deviantart.net/25ec/f/2008/100/e/9/hal2000_by_dawnsrise.jpg

[ImSAMazing]

S/he can't cast it again. No, not even then

With reincarnate, or another spell as true resurrection also not.

Please stop talking about simulacrum and make another tread for that

thread*, fixed it for you.

[PoeticDwarf]

thread*, fixed it for you.

Off topic and against forum rules*
Fixed that for you