Megalodon Empowerment for Druids

[Hiro Quester]

The spell Megalodon Empowerment (Stormwrack; Druid 8, Seafolk 7) gives two forms:

The "Form of the Hunter" for hours/level, you get the scent ability, and +10 to survival for scent tracking, a swim speed equal to your land speed, (or +10 to your swim speed), and the ability to breathe water. Not all that impressive.

Anytime during this period you can use a std action to assume the "form of the killer" for rounds/level. This increases your size by one category you bAB becomes equal to your Character level, and you get +4 NA, +3 to reflex and fort saves, and skin that harms (1d4) anyone who touches you. You also get a bite attack.

Again, for a wildshaping druid, that's nothing great.

But here's the unclear and potentially awesome part. It then says, in the middle of the description of the form of the killer:

If you possess the wild shape ability, you can assume the shapes of animals one size category larger than normal.

This 8th level spell comes on line at the same time that druid's get the ability to wildshape into Huge creatures (15th level). So this means Gargantuan creatures are on the table. Or Huge (rather than just large) elementals at 16th level. That itself can be pretty awesome.

But how exactly does this apply to a druid? I'm not asking for RAW, because it seems clear that RAW is quite unclear. But how would you rule this 8th level spell to work if you as DM had a player preparing this spell?

(1) Does this extra-large wildshape only apply for the duration of the form of the killer (rounds/level)? Or can you cast this and then get a whole wildshape duration of extra-largeness?

(2) Do you use one of your daily wildshape uses, or is this an extra use the spell bestows?

(3) It also says "You lose the ability to cast spells (but not to use spell-like abilities)." Does a druid with Natural spell still lose casting, or is this only for sea folk and (those strange and very rare) druids who don't take Natural Spell?

(4) Assuming that it only lasts for the "form of the killer" duration (rounds/level), does the druid take this extra-large wildshape version of the spell as well as, or instead of, all the other benefits?

(5) Can you become a gargantuan version of creatures you can normally choose (the increased size adjustment enables you to be a gargantuan tiger instead of just a huge one)? Or only actual gargantuan animals (of which there are very few).

(6) Does the druid's normal limitation on wildshape forms (limited to Hit Dice equal to your Druid level) still apply? (e.g. you could still be a Gargantuan Orca since they are 14+ HD).
Or does that mean you can be any gargantuan animal with which you are familiar with no hit dice limitation, like a gargantuan T-Rex of 37+ HD?

[Bronk]

But how exactly does this apply to a druid? I'm not asking for RAW, because it seems clear that RAW is quite unclear. But how would you rule this 8th level spell to work if you as DM had a player preparing this spell?

(1) Does this extra-large wildshape only apply for the duration of the form of the killer (rounds/level)? Or can you cast this and then get a whole wildshape duration of extra-largeness?

(2) Do you use one of your daily wildshape uses, or is this an extra use the spell bestows?

(3) It also says "You lose the ability to cast spells (but not to use spell-like abilities)." Does a druid with Natural spell still lose casting, or is this only for sea folk and (those strange and very rare) druids who don't take Natural Spell?

(4) Assuming that it only lasts for the "form of the killer" duration (rounds/level), does the druid take this extra-large wildshape version of the spell as well as, or instead of, all the other benefits?

(5) Can you become a gargantuan version of creatures you can normally choose (the increased size adjustment enables you to be a gargantuan tiger instead of just a huge one)? Or only actual gargantuan animals (of which there are very few).

(6) Does the druid's normal limitation on wildshape forms (limited to Hit Dice equal to your Druid level) still apply? (e.g. you could still be a Gargantuan Orca since they are 14+ HD).
Or does that mean you can be any gargantuan animal with which you are familiar with no hit dice limitation, like a gargantuan T-Rex of 37+ HD?

Oooh, sorry about calling this a level seven spell in the other thread, it's only level 7 in the Seafolk domain, I guess.

I don't think the spell is that nebulous, but here's what I'd do...

1: The whole length of the wild shape. It says that during that time period you can assume that larger form, but it doesn't say anything about limiting the length of your normal wild shape once assumed.

2: It looks like you'd still use your 1 wild shape use as normal, but just get a bonus to size when you do.

3: Since it says you lose spells, you'd lose them even with the feat. (Edit: Until the rounds per level Form of the Killer duration ends, anyway.)

4: Once you switch to Form of the Killer, the benefits would still be there in your wild shaped form until the newly shortened duration expires.

5: I would say no, because while you could assume the form of a larger creature with this spell, I would think the form has to exist first. Your example tiger maxes out at huge...

6: The spell doesn't have any wording to change the HD limit.


You know, I was pretty sure Eggynack had a thread a while back compiling gargantuan wild shape forms, but I can't find it now. Still, he probably incorporated it into his Druid Handbook...

[eggynack]

You know, I was pretty sure Eggynack had a thread a while back compiling gargantuan wild shape forms, but I can't find it now. Still, he probably incorporated it into his Druid Handbook...
That I did, in Half Baked Druid Ideas: the Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319791-Half-Baked-Druid-Ideas-The-Thread). I also do have an entry for the spell in the handbook. Unfortunately though, my conclusion was and is that it's pretty bad. Even when you start checking the really obscure stuff, the forms available are still quite bad, and definitely not better than standard dire tortoise shenanigans. All I have listed is roc, for being really big and having flight (and thus acting as a party ferry, at a point where that's likely completely pointless), and spinosaurus, for meh frightful presence.

So, you get basically nothing from that, though because you can expend the spell and use the bigger form long term, at least you can use spells in the really small number of forms. If we're being realistic, the spell's only strong usage is for huge forms, not gargantuan. On a normal druid, you're getting the spell and huge forms at the same time, but if you delay wild shape progression for whatever reason, like holt warden or moonspeaker or really any number of prestige classes, and if you aren't using an item to boost wild shape level, then megalodon empowerment lets you tortoise when you'd otherwise be not-tortoising. Granted, that's a one level edge at best, cause the tortoise has 14 HD, but it's an edge nonetheless, and you can always use other cool huge creatures.

[Hiro Quester]

The different interpretations here seem to show that the wording is very unclear.

Especially this: The clause mentioning the ability to assume one-size-larger wildshape forms, and not being able to cast while in this form, is in the middle of the description of the "form of the killer" description, that explicitly lasts only rounds/level, then discharges the spell.

That part of the spell begins with this:

At any time during the spell's duration, you can shift into the terrible Form of the Killer as a standard action.
Doing so dramatically reduces the remaining time of the spell, however, reducing it to 1 round per caster level, regardless of how much time was originally remaining.
In the Form of the Killer, you swell in size, increasing by one size category (see page 291 of the Monster Manual for guidelines on changes to abilities and traits for such a change).

So it seems that you should only get the larger wildshape form for rounds/level.

And while it's possible to read the mention of large wildshape forms being right after the part about not casting (in the very same paragraph) as implying that the druid in wildshape is an exception to the "you can't cast" limitation, it does not clearly say that a druid in wildshape can cast (as they normally could). It could easily be read in the opposite way: you get the large form in exchange for your casting ability while in that form. (Similar to the "Body of War" spell for wizards, but one level higher, and without any of the cool immunities.)

Roc party transportation would have to be for a very short trip. And Dire Tortoise's one awesome ability (you always act in the surprise round) is limited, unless you know you are about to be surprised. And even if you are surprised, you probably can't cast in dire tortoise form if you got it from this spell.

So even if there were a few good gargantuan animal forms, this spell would be somewhat underwhelming. But being rounds/level, you'd get almost the same benefit from a standard wildshape plus the 5th level spell "Bite of the Weretiger" (actually slightly better stat boosts, but without the reach).

Unless being a huge as opposed to Large elemental is appealing. That might be cool. But rounds/level for an 8th level spell?

[Bronk]

But rounds/level for an 8th level spell?

The way I'm reading it, the 'swelling up for rounds per level' part and the 'ability to take on a larger wild shape form' are separate abilities, stated separately, and the larger wild shape form would last for the regular hours per level amount of time.

Actually because of that, I think my I'll clarify my previous statement about not being able to cast while in the larger form to 'not being able to cast until the rounds per level duration of the Form of the Killer part of the spell is over'.

[eggynack]

Especially this: The clause mentioning the ability to assume one-size-larger wildshape forms, and not being able to cast while in this form, is in the middle of the description of the "form of the killer" description, that explicitly lasts only rounds/level, then discharges the spell.
The ability to assume larger than normal forms is indeed limited in duration. However, there is no mechanical force to cause you to lose your form after the duration. Once you assume a form, it's assumed. Any shorter duration would be acting against the strictly defined nature of wild shape, and would thus have to be explicit.



So it seems that you should only get the larger wildshape form for rounds/level.
What? No. Your greater form of the killer size and your greater wild shape form size are entirely unrelated.


And while it's possible to read the mention of large wildshape forms being right after the part about not casting (in the very same paragraph) as implying that the druid in wildshape is an exception to the "you can't cast" limitation, it does not clearly say that a druid in wildshape can cast (as they normally could). It could easily be read in the opposite way: you get the large form in exchange for your casting ability while in that form. (Similar to the "Body of War" spell for wizards, but one level higher, and without any of the cool immunities.)
I don't see a way to read it in either of those fashions. Wild shape is neither an exception to the lack of casting, nor the cause. The lack of casting comes straight from the spell, and is neither removed nor caused by your assumption of a form. You can't cast spells as long as the spell lasts, though it's unclear whether that's linked to the whole spell or just form of the killer, and when the spell's duration ends you can cast just fine. The two sentences, the one removing spells and the one giving bigger forms, seem entirely unrelated, lacking any apparent connective tissue beyond simply being situated together.



Unless being a huge as opposed to Large elemental is appealing.
It would be slightly appealing, as would access to larger than normal forms of any number of other types. But you can't, cause the spell specifies animal forms. Really not an especially good spell, though I actually revised its rating up a notch due to the dire tortoise thing. Not sure if that was correct though. Spending an 8th level spell is a big deal.

[Hiro Quester]

I would prefer to read it that way, Bronk. But the clause about larger wildshapes is within the description of the form of the killer.

The larger than normal wildshape (along with boosts to BAB, Saves, and NA), is the form of the killer. So it would only last for rounds/level.

Edit: oh, I see how you read that, Eggynack, as the larger wildshape would not be limited in duration(nothing ends it), though the boost to BAB, saves and NA would end after rounds/level.

But the clause about activating the form of the killer does seem to say that the whole spell ends after the FotK duration:

At any time during the spell's duration, you can shift into the terrible Form of the Killer as a standard action.
Doing so dramatically reduces the remaining time of the spell, however, reducing it to 1 round per caster level, regardless of how much time was originally remaining.

If the extra-large wildshape is due to the spell, then it seems it should end when the spell ends, explicitly after the FotK ends.

[eggynack]

Your ability to assume those forms is due to form of the killer, but the actual taking of those forms is dictated by wild shape. Once you're in a new form, you're not really interacting with the spell at all. The spell isn't letting you be in the form. It's just letting you take it, so the latter ability runs out while the former does not.

[Hiro Quester]

I'd like to interpret it that way. For an 8th level spell, it should be that way.

But I can see a relatively reasonable DM disagreeing, and interpreting it as allowing you to take the larger wildshape form along with increased BAB, ETC. but then also ending the Wildshape.

[eggynack]

I dunno what some arbitrary DM'll do. All I know is that the version where you lose the form doesn't seem anywhere near a valid RAW interpretation. Not even like it's especially good, or really all that good at all, when you can use it for form stuff. As I noted, you're usually not getting dire tortoise, as while a moonspeaker would seem the ideal entry into this plan, your four levels lagged wild shape means you'll be level 18 before you can actually muster the HD required. You'd need a smaller lag, like holt warden/contemplative or hathran dip, to get any real benefit in that fashion. I guess there's always other forms, but said forms are less critical and probably also have piles of HD.

Edit: Geez, assuming form of the killer is a standard, such that you can't even use the spell as a vaguely action efficient buff spell? Spell's even stupider than I thought.

[Bronk]

I would prefer to read it that way, Bronk. But the clause about larger wildshapes is within the description of the form of the killer.

It would have to be, since it's a power granted by that part of the spell.



If the extra-large wildshape is due to the spell, then it seems it should end when the spell ends, explicitly after the FotK ends.

As Eggynack also mentioned, it is just the ability to assume the form that is granted by the spell. Everything else is dictated by the wild shape ability.


I'd like to interpret it that way. For an 8th level spell, it should be that way.

But I can see a relatively reasonable DM disagreeing, and interpreting it as allowing you to take the larger wildshape form along with increased BAB, ETC. but then also ending the Wildshape.

I think you're doing yourself a disservice by being preemptively antsy about the spell. It's okay for spells to do nice things, especially if they're high level.



Edit: Geez, assuming form of the killer is a standard, such that you can't even use the spell as a vaguely action efficient buff spell? Spell's even stupider than I thought.

It would definitely be the kind of form you would want to spend a good portion of the day in.

Edit: Actually, this would be a fairly great spell to use at lower levels with a scroll...

[eggynack]

It would definitely be the kind of form you would want to spend a good portion of the day in.
Oh, sure, but I meant for the standard usage. Using this for wild shape would have taken a standard anyway. I was giving brief though to this thing's utility as a kind of melee heart of water, assuming it doesn't remove casting during the standard duration. In that context, you could have theoretically pulled some value out of activating the form of the killer when you're either low on spells or lacking a need for spells (though it's hard to imagine a context where beating down that way would be superior to just casting an 8th, given that you're definitely not saving the attack action), and beating down. But, if you're spending a standard action to activate, then the only value you're getting here as opposed to a normal buff is the form of the hunter stuff, and that's not worth an 8th at all. I guess all that is a pretty obvious conclusion, but the spell has some elements that, on the surface, making it appealing enough that it's worth deeper analysis. Long duration, a bunch of random utility, and the gargantuan thing once you're back to analyzing that aspect. It's unfortunate that not a single one of those elements is especially worthwhile.

[Hiro Quester]

It is okay for 8th level spells to do nice things. But I think Eggynack's is right that it's just not that great.

Even if it gives you a larger than regular wildshape form for the full duration, as well as the no-casting rounds per level duration of melee buffs, it's not a spell I would probably be preparing that often.