Force Damage

[Addaran]

What exactly is a force damage? First though and what i usually hear is that it's some kind concussive force, similar to bludgeonning. But then you watch some spells like Sword Burst who would be "slashing" force and Spiritual Weapon would be "piercing" force from a rapier/spear wielding god.

Seems to be that "force" is basically magical damage that is slashing, piercing or bludgeonning depending on the spell. So it would be very similar to what a magical weapon is doing? ( But then eldritch blast even sound like weird electricity?)

[Cybren]

Pretty much. "realistically" 80% of thing should just be bludgeoning damage.

[TheRedTemplar]

I think Force is supposed to be something like pure, raw magical energy. But thats just me.

[JumboWheat01]

I think Force is supposed to be something like pure, raw magical energy. But thats just me.

Something along this line. I like to think of it as something similar to the Arcane Mage of World of Warcraft. While the elements are rampant throughout various classes, Arcane Mages use raw magical power to blast things. Kinda like how a character using Magic Missile or Eldritch Blast are doing, just unleashing pure magical destruction. Might explain why its damage type is so rarely resisted. Kinda hard to resist the nature of the Weave, especially when part of it is chucked at you.

[Kane0]

Most of it is pretty much the magic equivalent of Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing. With the obvious exception of disintegrate.

[RickAllison]

Most of it is pretty much the magic equivalent of Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing. With the obvious exception of disintegrate.

Still makes sense with Disintegrate, you are just bludgeoning at the atomic level!

[Segev]

I tend to think of it as directly operating on each individual particle of the target, ripping through and into them directly. Not a blunt force, not a slash, not a puncture, but direct crushing and ripping and pulping all at once as raw force accelerates the various particles in different directions.

Leaves nasty bruises if it's light damage. Rips things to constituent atoms if it's particularly nasty, like with disintegrate.

[Rusvul]

Funnily enough, the book tells you. ;)


Force is pure magical energy focused into a
damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are
spells, including magic missile and spiritual weapon.

Force effects directly harness magic without shaping it into acid or frost. A Magic Missile isn't a Cold Missile, it's pure, undiluted magic. I'm really not sure what a force wound would look like, though. I guess it varies greatly depending on the type of force effect?

[Nicodiemus]

The force it is. Understand it you shall not. Use it you may.

[Cespenar]

Pure magic and pure force convey different meanings, though. The defining question should be: can you blast a door open with it?

[PoeticDwarf]

I think Force is supposed to be something like pure, raw magical energy. But thats just me.
This is true in most ways. Just magic energy inflict wounds different from weapons

[Flashy]

I tend to think of it as directly operating on each individual particle of the target, ripping through and into them directly. Not a blunt force, not a slash, not a puncture, but direct crushing and ripping and pulping all at once as raw force accelerates the various particles in different directions.

Leaves nasty bruises if it's light damage. Rips things to constituent atoms if it's particularly nasty, like with disintegrate.

This has always been my interpretation.

[JellyPooga]

I tend to think of it as directly operating on each individual particle of the target, ripping through and into them directly. Not a blunt force, not a slash, not a puncture, but direct crushing and ripping and pulping all at once as raw force accelerates the various particles in different directions.

Leaves nasty bruises if it's light damage. Rips things to constituent atoms if it's particularly nasty, like with disintegrate.

This has always been my interpretation.

Yeah, pretty much this. You can flavour it any which way you like; some like their force effects to arc and crackle like lightning in the colour of their choice, others will prefer a beam of light, others still will go for the translucent shape of barely visible energy and some will give it virtually no visible signature. Sometimes the spell/effect in question will determine the visuals, especially in the case of divine magic, which tends towards the deities preference.

The result, though, is the same; a pure damaging effect that tears things apart on the smallest scale. As Segev says; minor force damage will manifest like bruises. As the damage increases, the bruises become ruptures, full-scale hemorrhaging, explodifying body parts/people and finally, atomic level disintegration.

[djreynolds]

I received a brooch of shielding, how good is this? I don't fight many warlocks.

[Theodoxus]

I received a brooch of shielding, how good is this? I don't fight many warlocks.

Wow, they really boosted the Brooch... previous editions, it shattered after taking so much damage (99 or 100 or something).

If you're not facing warlocks or MM tossing casters, or going up against clerics using Spiritual Weapon, it's of minimal value... but even so, I'd go hunt me some Force users! Sith or Jedi, depending on your alignment

One of my players always imagines EB as lasers... he pewpew things everywhere, uses them as beacons, sending light beams into the night sky... Diablo III's wizard has a beam attack that I imagine EB to be like... laser works :smallwink:

[McNinja]

I received a brooch of shielding, how good is this? I don't fight many warlocks.
Really good if all of your enemies are wizards throwing magic missile around.

Slightly better than mediocre if they don't use magic missile but also love disintegrate or are clerics who really like spiritual weapon.

Almost a waste of space if you will never fight anyone or anything that uses MM or disintegrate or spiritual weapon.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

What exactly is a force damage? First though and what i usually hear is that it's some kind concussive force, similar to bludgeonning. But then you watch some spells like Sword Burst who would be "slashing" force and Spiritual Weapon would be "piercing" force from a rapier/spear wielding god.

Seems to be that "force" is basically magical damage that is slashing, piercing or bludgeonning depending on the spell. So it would be very similar to what a magical weapon is doing? ( But then eldritch blast even sound like weird electricity?)


In all honesty, I got tired of All the disconnection between magical damage and normal damage. Damage is just damage.

Bludgeoning damage from a maul and from a spell should just do the same type of damage.

My damage types...

Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing, Burn, Freeze, and Shock.

Thunderwave would just do bludgeoning damage.

Divine Smite would just deal burn damage (as radiant damage is essentially plasma to me).

Ice Knife would do piercing and then explode to deal cold damage as normal.

Poison Damage doesn't exist, it is only an effect/condition. If you need it to deal damage then I would say burn.

Necrotic damage could be Burn or freeze, depending on the source.

[JellyPooga]

My damage types...

Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing, Burn, Freeze, and Shock

Why stop there? After all, Burn/Freeze/Shock all have remarkably similar physiological effects as far as damage is concerned and B/P/S damage is all relatively interchangeable once you get past armour considerations.

Why not just have Physical, Elemental and Magical as your three damage types?
- Physical: Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Thunder
- Elemental: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison
- Magical: Force, Necrotic, Psychic, Radiant

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Why stop there? After all, Burn/Freeze/Shock all have remarkably similar physiological effects as far as damage is concerned and B/P/S damage is all relatively interchangeable once you get past armour considerations.

Why not just have Physical, Elemental and Magical as your three damage types?
- Physical: Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Thunder
- Elemental: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison
- Magical: Force, Necrotic, Psychic, Radiant

Your force, psychic, necrotic, and radiant can all go under other names.

Psychic energy could just be magic/non-magic that is bludgeoning/piercing/slashing the brain of an enemy causing it to bleed or become concussed (perhaps you say something so stupid or smart you give the enemy a headache).

Force is kinda the same way, except is external rather than internal.

I originally did have something like you are suggesting and then I realized that I could go further.

Instead of going with specific types, I just prefer general damage types because it gives you everything you *need* but allows flexibility for what you *want* to add.

[VoxRationis]

Why stop there? After all, Burn/Freeze/Shock all have remarkably similar physiological effects as far as damage is concerned and B/P/S damage is all relatively interchangeable once you get past armour considerations.

Why not just have Physical, Elemental and Magical as your three damage types?
- Physical: Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Thunder
- Elemental: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison
- Magical: Force, Necrotic, Psychic, Radiant

They have similar effects on flesh-and-blood creatures, but in a system where you can fight creatures literally made of fire, the distinction between fire and cold damage is quite necessary. Which brings me to one of my issues with damage:
If one effect deals more cold (or fire) damage than another, it stands to reason that that effect is colder (or hotter). If we accept that, then we have accepted that cold damage is inversely related to temperature. At some point, the damage should be enough that it can flash-freeze things. Arguably, that's what's causing the damage, but non-HP effects of freezing are not mechanically represented. How does that work? How much cold damage do you have to do to use ray of frost to freeze a glass of water? A pond?

[SpawnOfMorbo]

They have similar effects on flesh-and-blood creatures, but in a system where you can fight creatures literally made of fire, the distinction between fire and cold damage is quite necessary. Which brings me to one of my issues with damage:
If one effect deals more cold (or fire) damage than another, it stands to reason that that effect is colder (or hotter). If we accept that, then we have accepted that cold damage is inversely related to temperature. At some point, the damage should be enough that it can flash-freeze things. Arguably, that's what's causing the damage, but non-HP effects of freezing are not mechanically represented. How does that work? How much cold damage do you have to do to use ray of frost to freeze a glass of water? A pond?

I use the idea of petrification as an effect of cold.

Instead of stone, the item freezes, so you effect a body of water or a creature to a specific cold spell or effect and they get saves (like death saves) on a failure of three the target freezes.

Objects and items don't get a save unless it is being worn/wielded by a person.

Normal cold spells only brings the temp down to a specific level, it doesn't stack with itself to get colder. You will still take damage but you can't really freeze someone solid like you could with specific spells.

[JellyPooga]

Which brings me to one of my issues with damage: How much cold damage do you have to do to use ray of frost to freeze a glass of water? A pond?

Strictly speaking you cannot freeze even a single water droplet with Ray of Frost as it's not in the spell description!

From this we can infer that the amount of damage inflicted is not proportional to temperature (directly or inversely), but some other factor. Quite what that factor might be, I don't know!

[Mith]

Trying to do the math to figure out a ruling for how much energy Ray of Frost does. The conclusion I come to is that your movement rate should likely stay slow for a lot longer than until your next round, and that successive Cold attacks should deal more damage (might be something to consider for Fire/Cold). For the first one, I concluded "the spell effect lasts for a couple of seconds, and it imposes a temperature shift, instead of maintaining it, so I do not need to try and deal with balancing that out" If a target has a heat source (metabolism, external heat source not impacted by the spell), the target quickly returns to normal. If not, the body acts as a it would at the temperature imposed on it by the spell.

So I am not the best at manipulating these equations anymore, so here is what I came up with:

Moderate Hypothermia (http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/what-is-hypothermia?page=3), where the core body temperature is from around 27 - 32 degrees Celsius, (a temperature drop of 5 - 10 degrees, average 7.5 degree change)

The average Specific Heat Capacity of the Human Body (http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and-answers/1-average-specific-heat-capacity-human-body-approximately-3500-j-kgk-normal-conditions-spe-q2108015) is around 3.5 kJ/kgC (Kilojoule per Kilogram degree Celsius)

The Average Human mass is 62 kg (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/18/human-population-earth-weight_n_1605244.html)

So the energy to impose moderate hypothermia on the average human is [3.5 kJ/(kg C)]*[7.5 C]*[62 kg] = ~1 628 kJ

Since the slowed condition always happens, that means that 1hp = 1 628 kJ of energy lost. Since that is always the case, perhaps the Constitution of the target creature makes it difficult for the spell to leach all the heat from the corpse until it is slain, at which point resistance crumbles and the creature freezes to death.

Now the specific heat capacity of water is around 4.2 kJ/(kg C), so to reduce a room temperature water to freezing (a 25 degree change), requires 105 kJ/kg of water. Density of water is roughly 1 000 kg/m^3, so freezing water takes 105 000 kJ/m^3.

So two scenarios are presented (a glass of water, and a frozen pond). For the glass of water, I will assume that the glass is frozen solid. For the pond I will solve for frozen surface to walk on, and frozen solid

Case 1) The Glass of water

For the glass, I will assume a volume of 375 mL or 375*10^-6 m^3. That means that the energy it takes to freeze it solid is 39.375 kJ, which is less than 628 kJ from the minimum Ray of Frost. As such, the glass is instantly frozen.

Case 2) The Pond

For the pond, I will assume a surface area of 1 m^2 and a depth of 1 m. These numbers can be used as a multiplier for larger bodies of water. It should be noted that ice has to be ~0.21 m thick to take a car or truck, which should be good for a horse in armour and a pack mule.

i) Walk on the surface

Volume = 0.21 m^3

Energy = 22050 kJ (~36 hp from Ray of Frost, or about 9 castings on average at 1st level)

So it takes about 9 castings of Ray of Frost at 1st level per m^2 of water needing to be frozen. I would argue for un anchored ice you would need a floe about 4 m (~width of a road) to ensure stability, so about 36 castings/m of ice road.

ii) Freeze solid

Volume = 1 m^3

Energy = 105 000 kJ (~168 hp from Ray of Frost or 42 castings at 1st level)

So at 1st level, it takes around 42 castings to freeze a cubic meter of water at room temperature.

EDIT: There is an error in my math because I started using 628 kJ instead of 1 628 kJ. But I am pretty sure I have made enough assumptions here to bend the numbers any way I want, plus Ray of Frost apparently only targets living creatures anyway, so it is a moot point. Still this is basically my thought process behind trying to draw parallels between D&D magic and the physical world. :D

[JoeJ]

Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.

You made me think of midichlorians, I'm gonna hate you for the next minute or two while I recall the star wars prequels.

:smalltongue:

[Safety Sword]

You summon the ghost of Sir Isaac Newton and he punches the target, right in the physics.

[JoeJ]

You made me think of midichlorians, I'm gonna hate you for the next minute or two while I recall the star wars prequels.

:smalltongue:

Midichlorians exist do not. Three Star Wars movies only are there.

edit: And shot first did Han.

[Segev]

You summon the ghost of Sir Isaac Newton and he punches the target, right in the physics.

*gurk!* My Adam's Apple!

[JNAProductions]

You summon the ghost of Sir Isaac Newton and he punches the target, right in the physics.

Safety, take an internet, because you just won one. That is perfect.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Midichlorians exist do not. Three Star Wars movies only are there.

edit: And shot first did Han.

New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and Force Awakens.

But that doesn't mean I don't remember those fever pitched movies... Although Darth Jar Jar is perhaps the best theory out there.

[JoeJ]

New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and Force Awakens.

But that doesn't mean I don't remember those fever pitched movies... Although Darth Jar Jar is perhaps the best theory out there.

I haven't seen Force Awakens yet. Is it really good enough to be considered alongside the originals? (Please no spoilers if it is.)

[RickAllison]

I haven't seen Force Awakens yet. Is it really good enough to be considered alongside the originals? (Please no spoilers if it is.)

I think so, but I also enjoy certain aspects of the prequel trilogy (lore galore!).

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I haven't seen Force Awakens yet. Is it really good enough to be considered alongside the originals? (Please no spoilers if it is.)

The only original movie I would put above it is Empire Strikes back.

What's really cool about this movie is it was made in such a way as it could be a stand alone movie. You don't need to know Star Wars to enjoy it, but there is enough Star Wars stuff/tie in used in such a way that it doesn't really feel forced.

There are some things it could have done better, as with any movie, but it is fun and has some of the best protagonist that star wars or any movie has ever seen.

[JNAProductions]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477398-An-Extra-Star-Wars-Talk-Spoiler-Free!&p=20384493#post20384493

Go there for more Star Wars talk. No need to derail this thread too hard.

[Safety Sword]

*gurk!* My Adam's Apple!

I wasn't sure that's where the physics was located, but I appreciate the apple reference. :smallamused:


Safety, take an internet, because you just won one. That is perfect.

It made me smile to write it, so I'm glad you enjoyed it too.

As someone with a degree in physics, the whole scenario just made me giggle a little. :smallwink:

[Socratov]

Something along this line. I like to think of it as something similar to the Arcane Mage of World of Warcraft. While the elements are rampant throughout various classes, Arcane Mages use raw magical power to blast things. Kinda like how a character using Magic Missile or Eldritch Blast are doing, just unleashing pure magical destruction. Might explain why its damage type is so rarely resisted. Kinda hard to resist the nature of the Weave, especially when part of it is chucked at you.

The shield 1st lvl spell would like a word with you. it blocks all force effects.

[JumboWheat01]

The shield 1st lvl spell would like a word with you. it blocks all force effects.

Because it is also a Force effect. Against normal attacks, it acts as an AC boost by Forcefully moving aside the attack. Against other Force effects, it acts as the Equal and Opposite Force. Magic Missile and the like are out to damage you, Shield is out to prevent damage. They equal each other out.

Magical physics.

[Addaran]

Thanks for the answers all!
Some seems to think like me or that there is too many damage type. The other half seem to think force is really his own type of damage and the "form" (wich kind of spiritual weapon) of the spell doesn't really change much the effect of that energy.
I'll keep that in mind. =)

[JackPhoenix]

Well, from the perspective of RL physics, D&D's "force" makes about as much sense as "pure energy" found all over the sci-fi and fantasy. If you have problem with that, you can remove it and replace it with various kinds physical damage. I don't mind it, as far as I'm concerned "It's magic. I ain't gotta explain sh**"

Now, liches being immune to antimater...

[Kane0]

On an unrelated note, at my table radiant damage is pretty much considered radiation. My sun monk is a specialist at delivering deadly skin cancer at short ranges.
Makes angels and clerics pretty scary for my group.

[JackPhoenix]

On an unrelated note, at my table radiant damage is pretty much considered radiation. My sun monk is a specialist at delivering deadly skin cancer at short ranges.
Makes angels and clerics pretty scary for my group.

Fan of Pelor, the Burning Hate, then? Too bad the original thread disappeared with the wizards forum :(

[SpawnOfMorbo]

On an unrelated note, at my table radiant damage is pretty much considered radiation. My sun monk is a specialist at delivering deadly skin cancer at short ranges.
Makes angels and clerics pretty scary for my group.

I think of radiant as more of plasma and necrotic as more of radiation.


Fan of Pelor, the Burning Hate, then? Too bad the original thread disappeared with the wizards forum :(

It's still around! Someone pulled all of it over to another site... That was the first thing I found when I heard about them dumping the site.

One thing to add to it from 4e. His wife-ish deity person, Erathis, is cordial with freaking Asmodeus. Pelor still has a channel in which to talk and get a hold of the evil side.

I bet Pelor and Asmodeus has a running bet on how long Pelor could keep it up (without interference with anyone that knows).

Which might be why Pelor is a "good deity", Asmodeus's bet for a longer period of time than Pelor's bet haha (and Asmodeus has loop holes in order to keep Pelor as a "good deity")....

[Millstone85]

Psychic energy could just be magic/non-magic that is bludgeoning/piercing/slashing the brain of an enemy causing it to bleed or become concussedThis is how I would picture the force damage dealt by a magic missile through the head. With psychic damage, I instead imagine the brain getting rewired/overwritten in a way that leads to insanity or an empty shell. Blood vessels and cell tissues are unharmed but the mind is not.


One of my players always imagines EB as lasers... he pewpew things everywhereI am considering making the verbal component of EB some variation of Exterminate! because I keep picturing the spell as a dalek ray.


I think of radiant as more of plasma and necrotic as more of radiation.My headcanon is that necrotic energy is a fantasy version of the nanorobotic grey goo, ready to consume and replace everything, while radiant energy exists to preserve both the magical and non-magical aspects of the world. In between the two are forms of magic that are neither a threat nor a protection for the rest of reality, or are both at the same time, such as elemental powers or the Weave. All are technically unaligned, though it takes an evil or especially careless person to use necrotic energy, while radiant energy is much to the liking of guardians and healers.

[Segev]

Psychic damage, to me, is damage you THINK you've suffered so hard that your body actually "makes it real." It's psychosomatic injury enforced by magic. It could be "all in your head" in that you feel it as pain and agony in your head, or it could be illusory damage made real.

Since hp are abstractions of more than just injury, but also represent your luck, energy, and talent for turning mortal blows into glancing ones, the agony of psychic damage could also just be slowing you down so you're closer to being vulnerable to that one fatal wound that pushes you to 0 or below.

[JackPhoenix]

Psychic damage, to me, is damage you THINK you've suffered so hard that your body actually "makes it real." It's psychosomatic injury enforced by magic. It could be "all in your head" in that you feel it as pain and agony in your head, or it could be illusory damage made real.

Since hp are abstractions of more than just injury, but also represent your luck, energy, and talent for turning mortal blows into glancing ones, the agony of psychic damage could also just be slowing you down so you're closer to being vulnerable to that one fatal wound that pushes you to 0 or below.

Psychic damage from Vicious Mockery is, in fact, bludgeoning damage the target suffers from a facepalm following the caster's horrible pun

[Mith]

Psychic damage, to me, is damage you THINK you've suffered so hard that your body actually "makes it real." It's psychosomatic injury enforced by magic. It could be "all in your head" in that you feel it as pain and agony in your head, or it could be illusory damage made real.


I would say that it also ends up as micro strokes/ blood vessel break, so someone who is killed by psychic damage basically has an aneurysm.

[JumboWheat01]

Psychic damage from Vicious Mockery is, in fact, bludgeoning damage the target suffers from a facepalm following the caster's horrible pun

It could be piercing as they try to stab their ears out after hearing it as well.