Popular dips

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys, so I was thinking about multiclassing, the heart and soul of character building (feel free to argue), and I began to wonder about what are the most common dips and why, so, for this thread, I'd like it if you guys would tell us a common dip, and briefly explain what makes it useful.
For my contribution:

Rogue 3: Cunning action and assassinate? Yes please, and the 2d6 sneak attack doesn't hurt.

Fighter 2: I think that they consciously chose to make fighter 2 a thing, in honor of 3.5, but this is action surge all day, plus fighting style is nice.

[Syll]

Paladin 2: Fighting style, lvl 1 Paladin spells (cure, bless etc), heavy armor and martial weapons, and synergy with CHR casters

Warlock 2: 2 short rest recharging spell slots, 2 invocations, and access to the warlock spell list (hex, armor of agathys, eldritch blast...)

[RulesJD]

Paladin 2: Fighting style, lvl 1 Paladin spells (cure, bless etc), heavy armor and martial weapons, and synergy with CHR casters

Warlock 2: 2 short rest recharging spell slots, 2 invocations, and access to the warlock spell list (hex, armor of agathys, eldritch blast...)

You don't get heavy armor from MC into Paladin.

[Syll]

You don't get heavy armor from MC into Paladin.

No, but you do if you MC out of it.

[Nicodiemus]

Rogue 3 Swashbuckler gets you SA damage, no AoO from targets of your attack and an initiative bonus! Can we say "en garde!"?

[RulesJD]

Hey guys, so I was thinking about multiclassing, the heart and soul of character building (feel free to argue), and I began to wonder about what are the most common dips and why, so, for this thread, I'd like it if you guys would tell us a common dip, and briefly explain what makes it useful.
For my contribution:

Rogue 3: Cunning action and assassinate? Yes please, and the 2d6 sneak attack doesn't hurt.

Fighter 2: I think that they consciously chose to make fighter 2 a thing, in honor of 3.5, but this is action surge all day, plus fighting style is nice.

Warlock 2/3 for recharable spell slots (Paladin/Sorcs especially), invocations, Hex/EB

Sorc 1 for Shield + Con saves

Cleric 1 (Tempest/War) for Heavy Armor/Martial weps/Bless/Healing Word if first level is in primary class

Fighter 2 for Con Saves + Fighting Style + Action Surge

Rogue 2 for cunning action

[Sigreid]

Fighter with a rogue dip. Heavy armor and a rogues tricks (dodge etc.) can be very, very good.

[Malifice]

Rogue 3: Cunning action and assassinate? Yes please, and the 2d6 sneak attack doesn't hurt.

Assasinate is way too hard to get off unless you're going solo (and even then its hard). Two levels is all you need.


Fighter 2: I think that they consciously chose to make fighter 2 a thing, in honor of 3.5, but this is action surge all day, plus fighting style is nice.

For sure - and an extra level nets you 3 sup dice per short rest too.

[Nicodiemus]

Assasinate is way too hard to get off unless you're going solo (and even then its hard). Two levels is all you need.



For sure - and an extra level nets you 3 sup dice per short rest too.

It's 4 dice, 3 maneuvers. I messed that up my first few combats with a battle master.

[Malifice]

It's 4 dice, 3 maneuvers. I messed that up my first few combats with a battle master.

I always get that back to front!

Really makes me wish they gave the martial adept feat 2 dice.

[Nicodiemus]

I'll second that, Mal. But at least it's an SR recovery.

[Malifice]

I'll second that, Mal. But at least it's an SR recovery.

As nice as nabbing precise strike and tripping attack are on a melee PC, just having the one dice isnt enough for me to justify not bumping a stat by 2.

Pity too. I loved TOB in 3.5.

[Foxhound438]

barb 3 for damage resistance

bard 3 for utility spells, jack, and expertise

Pal 2 for smite

rogue 1 for expertise (others have said 2 for cunning act, but i feel if there's a dumpable capstone like the monk's this is okay)

Sorc 3 for quicken

warlock 3 for darkness shenanigans

(edit: warlock 1 for hex is also fine, as is 2 for a decent ranged attack)

that's all the dips i'd do that haven't been mentioned above

[bid]

The bigger dip problem is the MADness, you have to pick a class that uses your main stats. Anything that needs more than 14 is hard to use properly. Don't forget utilities too.

If you get an ASI or extra attack, it's not a dip it's a gish. You must really get something useful to waste 3 levels of your main class. You must also survive level 5 without extra attack or 3rd spells.

Str
- Barbarian 2 for reckless (no rage).

Dex
- Rogue 1 for expertise (then cunning action and swashbuckler as the other said). Use BB to pin in place.

Int
- Divination wizard 2 for portent

Wis
- Knowledge cleric 1 for expertise
- Nature cleric 1 for SAD shillelagh melee.
- Life cleric 1 to boost any healer
- War cleric 1 for archer
- Druid 2 for wildshape scouting

Cha
- Paladin 2 as a gish boost
- Draconic sorcerer 1 for AC13+Dex (and Con save, as JD said)
- Warlock 2, then tomelock rituals

Fighter 1 improves any class.

Monks and bards won't play nice. Fighter 6 and paladin 6 are hard to resist.

[PoeticDwarf]

Paladin 2: Fighting style, lvl 1 Paladin spells (cure, bless etc), heavy armor and martial weapons, and synergy with CHR casters

Warlock 2: 2 short rest recharging spell slots, 2 invocations, and access to the warlock spell list (hex, armor of agathys, eldritch blast...)

No heavy armor. But these are nice indeed.

I'd like to add 1-3 fighter levels, and 2-3 barbarian levels for some martials or fullcasters who want a fightingstyle (fighter). 1/2 rogue is also pretty strong

[Spacehamster]

3 levels hunter ranger for style, horde breaker and hunters mark.

[OldTrees1]

They did a really good job with the first third of each class this time around. It is easier to count "dead" levels
Fighter 1: Fighting Style & Second Wind
Fighter 2: Action Surge
Fighter 3: Subclass benefit 1
Fighter 4: ASI/Feat
Fighter 5: Extra Attack
Fighter 6: ASI/Feat
Fighter 8: ASI/Feat

Paladin 2: Fighting Style & Divine Smite
Paladin 3: Oath benefit I
Paladin 4: ASI/Feat
Paladin 5: Extra Attack
Paladin 6: Aura of Protection
Paladin 7: Oath benefit II
Paladin 8: ASI/Feat

Rogue 1: Expertise I
Rogue 2: Cunning Action
Rogue 3: Subclass benefit I
Rogue 4: ASI/Feat
Rogue 5: Uncanny Dodge
Rogue 6: Expertise II
Rogue 7: Evasion
Rogue 8: ASI/Feat

Bard 2: Jack of All Trades
Bard 3: College benefit & Expertise
Bard 4: ASI/Feat
Bard 6: College benefit
Bard 8: ASI/Feat

[Syll]

I've had 2 people in this thread tell me now that PLD dip goesn't give heavy armor proficiency, when of course PLD gets heavy armor natively, (yes, I'm aware you don't get it if you don't start as a PLD)

But the fact that it came up twice now has made me curious; I've always been of the mindset that I want to get my dips out of the way early (when the levels come fast) so I can get into my main class and stay there. It also seems (generally) easier to me to rationalize a dip in the beginning of your adventuring career (RP wise) rather than half way (especially if you're coming back to your original class after).

Is this not the norm?

[mephnick]

Assasinate is way too hard to get off unless you're going solo (and even then its hard). Two levels is all you need.

Eh, with a good Dex score it's not very hard to use, you'll at least get the sneak attack off. It's obviously stronger for a ranged character though.

But, yes, I'd almost always stop at Rogue 2 for Cunning Action.

[SmokingSkull]

For me I don't MC into more than one other class than the one I start off with. For me I'm going mostly Fighter/Champion with Barbarian/Totem Warrior (Bear). I'm going 17 F/3 B so that grants me: 6 ASI, 2 fighting styles (GWF and whatever your 2nd option is, almost doesn't matter imo), ASx2, 3 attacks per turn, Indomitable x3, Crit on 18-20, and RA from the Fighter alone. From the Barb I get Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense, Reckless Attack and the Bear's resistance to everything but psychic. Couple this with GWM, Mobile and Resilience Wisdom and the rest ASI and you got a guy who can hit and run when he isn't raging, a nigh unkillable butt kicking machine when he is, and best of all you can still nova like a boss and get plenty of chances to crit.

However not every campaign goes to twenty but mine is, so YMMV.

[Foxhound438]

Eh, with a good Dex score it's not very hard to use, you'll at least get the sneak attack off. It's obviously stronger for a ranged character though.


as far as i can tell "surprised" only applies to creatures that you have a surprise round against. It fits thematically too, since a guy in melee would have his guard up and thus it would be more difficult to aim a dagger/whatever into their soft spots, on top of their continuous motion. So even if you get it it's probably once per fight unless your dm is incredibly liberal with stealth mechanics.

[Foxhound438]

For me I don't MC into more than one other class than the one I start off with. For me I'm going mostly Fighter/Champion with Barbarian/Totem Warrior (Bear). I'm going 17 F/3 B so that grants me: 6 ASI, 2 fighting styles (GWF and whatever your 2nd option is, almost doesn't matter imo), ASx2, 3 attacks per turn, Indomitable x3, Crit on 18-20, and RA from the Fighter alone. From the Barb I get Unarmored Defense, Danger Sense, Reckless Attack and the Bear's resistance to everything but psychic. Couple this with GWM, Mobile and Resilience Wisdom and the rest ASI and you got a guy who can hit and run when he isn't raging, a nigh unkillable butt kicking machine when he is, and best of all you can still nova like a boss and get plenty of chances to crit.

However not every campaign goes to twenty but mine is, so YMMV.

i feel a 3 level dip in champion is really good for paladins and barbarians if they aren't already going for some other dip.

[Naanomi]

You can make some interesting builds cramming together a bunch of dips... I am having a great time playing through Sorc 1/Warlock 4/Sorc +3/Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Fighter +1/Rogue +1/Warlock +7

[Malifice]

Eh, with a good Dex score it's not very hard to use, you'll at least get the sneak attack off. It's obviously stronger for a ranged character though.

But, yes, I'd almost always stop at Rogue 2 for Cunning Action.

If the enemy critters are aware of just one of your companions, they are not surprised on turn 1. So you need either a really stealthy group (Im looking at you Dex 8 fighter in full plate) or to be operating away from the group, or solo to set it up with any frequency.

Also, even assuming you catch your enemy by surprise (it fails to notice ANY PC's) then you still have to roll better on initiative to assasinate them.

In practice it can be quite hard to pull off.


I've always been of the mindset that I want to get my dips out of the way early (when the levels come fast) so I can get into my main class and stay there. It also seems (generally) easier to me to rationalize a dip in the beginning of your adventuring career (RP wise) rather than half way (especially if you're coming back to your original class after).

Is this not the norm?

Quite the opposite for me. Never dip before 5th level unless you absolutely need to for fluff reasons. The 5th level abilities (extra attack, uncanny dodge, stunning fist, bardic inspiration recharging on a short rest, 3rd level spells like fireball and fly etc) are not worth delaying. Go straight for 5th level, then branch out with your dip. If you have to dip before 5th, dont take more than a single level unless it cant be avoided.

There are some exceptions to this rule; Bladelocks require a 1 level dip in Fighter to work the best (and can compensate for delaying extra attack to 6th level by use of the new cantrips which scale at 5th). Even they lose access to fireball etc at 5th level so there is a cost. Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 3 is also a pretty decent dip (loses a bit, but can cover the loss of extra attack with the melee cantrips).

At 5th level, you can see the exponential power leap of single classed PCs vs those that have multiclassed, and it always favors the single classed PCs.

[RickAllison]

I tend to do a lot of dips in the early levels so they make sense with my character. For an example, a Shadow Sorcerer/Sun Monk (irony). As a level 0, he might have been a monk, but it makes sense to me to include his first level as the Sorc (when he died, etc.). He can return to it later on, but he can't change the fact that he has been touched by the darkness. Never fail to use the fact that your PC spent years at level 0, it makes for an even wider variety of backstories to explain odd combinations without compromising telling a story.

[SharkForce]

i would argue that a primary blast warlock dipping 3 sorcerer levels for metamagic isn't giving up all that much by taking the dip early. still hurts, but not nearly as much as usual... a warlock is a lot like a regular ranged combat class in how they play, but their "extra attack" comes from character level rather than class level. naturally, not having access to spells like fireball (for a fiend pact) etc still hurts, but not quite as badly, because your spells that use slots are not your main resource, and none of the most interesting invocations for a blast lock are gated at 5.

[Kane0]

I wonder what a good multi dip build would be. Like fighter 3 / rogue 3 / paladin 5 / warlock 3 / sorcerer 3 / bard 3 /

[Malifice]

i would argue that a primary blast warlock dipping 3 sorcerer levels for metamagic isn't giving up all that much by taking the dip early.

A Warlock 2/ Sorcerer 3 compared to a straight Sorcerer gains a good cantrip (and the ability to one/two with a quickened EB) in exchange for a feat (or ASI) and access to third level spells (fireball). He'll also forever be behind in gaining access to higher level spells.

Bearing in mind the sorcerer can spam firebolt + quickened firebolt for similar damage, and still has 2 x fireballs per day to fall back on for mook clearance.

Its not a bad option, but its not OP compared to just going staight sorcerer, and personally I'd probably prefer the latter.

[SharkForce]

A Warlock 2/ Sorcerer 3 compared to a straight Sorcerer gains a good cantrip (and the ability to one/two with a quickened EB) in exchange for a feat (or ASI) and access to third level spells (fireball). He'll also forever be behind in gaining access to higher level spells.

Bearing in mind the sorcerer can spam firebolt + quickened firebolt for similar damage, and still has 2 x fireballs per day to fall back on for mook clearance.

Its not a bad option, but its not OP compared to just going staight sorcerer, and personally I'd probably prefer the latter.

"primary blast warlock"

"dipping 3 sorcerer levels"

which of these implies that 5 levels of sorcerer are in any way a part of this build at any point in time from start to finish?

you can certainly present the argument that a sorcerer with a warlock dip (or a sorcerer without a warlock dip) is a better build overall, but if your goal is to be a warlock with metamagic rather than a sorcerer with eldritch blast and a couple of invocations (or just a straight sorcerer), you can dip 3 levels of sorcerer quite early and it won't hurt that much.

[Malifice]

"primary blast warlock"

"dipping 3 sorcerer levels"

which of these implies that 5 levels of sorcerer are in any way a part of this build at any point in time from start to finish?

you can certainly present the argument that a sorcerer with a warlock dip (or a sorcerer without a warlock dip) is a better build overall, but if your goal is to be a warlock with metamagic rather than a sorcerer with eldritch blast and a couple of invocations (or just a straight sorcerer), you can dip 3 levels of sorcerer quite early and it won't hurt that much.

I disagree. Delaying 3 spells per short rest (11th level) or the other Warlock goodies (and higher level spells and the arcana slots) by 3 whole levels hurts.

[bid]

The 5th level abilities (extra attack, uncanny dodge, stunning fist, bardic inspiration recharging on a short rest, 3rd level spells like fireball and fly etc) are not worth delaying.
That is mostly true. Cantrip will grow at level 5.
- warlock 2 does 2d10+6 without ASI
- EK 4 does 2d8+8 on hit with BB/GFB and ASI
- sorcerer 1 for BB/GFB (iffy)
- wizard 1 for BB/GFB (iffy)

Still, you really need an exotic MC build to perform at level 5.

[joaber]

ou can't stock more than 3 SP too, so, will be just 1 use per encounter.
thinking in long term, sorc 17/ lock 3 is way better than lock 17 / sorc 3

[MaxWilson]

ou can't stock more than 3 SP too, so, will be just 1 use per encounter.
thinking in long term, sorc 17/ lock 3 is way better than lock 17 / sorc 3

True.

However, apropos of nothing, Barb 3/Fiendlock 17 is the ultimate tank and way more fun than Barb 20. And you still get True Polymorph.

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I wonder what a good multi dip build would be. Like fighter 3 / rogue 3 / paladin 5 / warlock 3 / sorcerer 3 / bard 3 /

Wild Sorcerer 6/Life Cleric 1/Warlock 2/Lore Bard 11 is pretty interesting for a Sorlock variant. With Extended Aura of Vitality, you get the best healing in the game (240 HP of healing from a 3rd level slot). You get Agonizing Repelling Blast for control shenanigans and excellent damage. You get Hex and Armor of Agathys. You get d10 Inspiration Dice that refresh on a short rest, and you get Bend Luck and Cutting Words to interfere with enemy saves/ability checks. (Cutting Words + Hex = one enemy that isn't getting out of Evard's Black Tentacles any time soon.) You get 9th level spell slots and 6th level spells (e.g. Mass Suggestion, Otto's Irresistible Dance, True Seeing). You get Shield and Expeditious Retreat to keep you alive, and Greenflame/Booming Blade to do melee damage without having to take Crossbow Expert. You get Bless, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, and Faerie Fire, all excellent things to do with your warlock slots.

You only get three ASIs though so spend them wisely. And you don't ever get True Polymorph or Wish like a regular bard does. But you get a lot in exchange.

[SharkForce]

I disagree. Delaying 3 spells per short rest (11th level) or the other Warlock goodies (and higher level spells and the arcana slots) by 3 whole levels hurts.

funny thing, the only thing in that list that is a level 5 ability would be higher level spell slots, and as i've already mentioned, warlocks don't rely on their regular spell slots nearly as much as usual, so being stuck with only level 2 spell slots instead of level 3 isn't so awful.

if you want to change the goal posts, then yeah the dip has drawbacks. i never said it didn't.

i merely pointed out that a warlock dipping 3 levels of sorcerer doesn't hurt all that much at level 5, as an exception to the rule that not going single-class up to level 5 is usually too painful to consider. frankly, it doesn't matter whether you got 5 levels of warlock and then 3 levels of sorcerer, or 2 levels of warlock and then 3 levels of sorcerer and then 3 more of warlock, as far as your build at 11th level is concerned. it is just as painful whether you took the sorcerer levels at 3 or 6.

@joaber: that all depends on what metamagic you took. if you grabbed subtle (to help with mental control spells and special scenarios like being underwater or casting from stealth) and careful (to avoid friendly fire on spells like confusion and hypnotic pattern), you get 3 uses before you're out, and you probably don't need more than 1-2 uses per fight. if you took empower so that you could reroll eldritch blast damage and extend for extreme range sniping, likely the same. if you chose heighten or quicken, then yeah you don't get many uses unless you burn up spell slots... but seeing as how there are several options for metamagic, and some perfectly good ones take only a single SP to use, it is entirely possible to get all you need. meanwhile, the sorcerer dip can add some very useful spell knowledge and some lower level spell slots to use that spell knowledge with (or to fuel your sorcery points if you don't want to use up your warlock slots for it).

arguably, sorc 17/lock 3 is better than lock 17/sorc 3 (though i don't know that the third level of warlock would be something most sorcerer builds would consider in the first place). but the lock 17/sorc 3 build is *much* better at being a warlock. 14 levels better, in fact. so, if you want to be a warlock rather than a sorcerer, the warlock build is probably the way you're going to go.

[Corran]

I tend to do a lot of dips in the early levels so they make sense with my character. For an example, a Shadow Sorcerer/Sun Monk (irony). As a level 0, he might have been a monk, but it makes sense to me to include his first level as the Sorc (when he died, etc.). He can return to it later on, but he can't change the fact that he has been touched by the darkness. Never fail to use the fact that your PC spent years at level 0, it makes for an even wider variety of backstories to explain odd combinations without compromising telling a story.
Yeah, I like to use that kind of approach when there is a contradiction between the fluff justification and the mechanical benefits, when the order of multiclassing is concerned.

[RickAllison]

Yeah, I like to use that kind of approach when there is a contradiction between the fluff justification and the mechanical benefits, when the order of multiclassing is concerned.

Indeed, it is also handy when you want to start with a Constitution saving throw when the Sorc is only your dip :smallbiggrin: I feel a little dirty for admitting that.

[Corran]

Indeed, it is also handy when you want to start with a Constitution saving throw when the Sorc is only your dip :smallbiggrin: I feel a little dirty for admitting that.
You shouldnt. Unless perhaps you are playing in a campaign when the DM takes care of how leveling up interacts with what is happening in the campaign word. And no DM can do that, as there are cases where it is simply just silly to try to make sense out of it. Especially for features that have out of combat utility, eg the assassins 2 middle features, at one level you cannot use them, but at the next level you suddenly have everything it takes (including contacts) to pull them off. Or with a paladin and his oath. I dont suppose all DMs have a specific event for when the paladin reaches 3rd level so that he can justify tking up an oath. The silliness of this can be easily downplayed assuming an incident during lvl 0 that can justify pursuing the oath. As you said, lvl 0 is importat, but not only for optimization purposes, but also so that things can make sense in certain ocassions.

[RickAllison]

You shouldnt. Unless perhaps you are playing in a campaign when the DM takes care of how leveling up interacts with what is happening in the campaign word. And no DM can do that, as there are cases where it is simply just silly to try to make sense out of it.

Naw, he was okay with my reasoning. His real concern was the fact that my death was the source of two class dips (Shadow Sorc, Undying Light Warlock) for thematic reasons. Once I explained how I viewed the levels occurring (level of Shadow Sorc from his touch with death, but he isn't even really aware of those powers until he takes the second level; Undying Light from being brought back, and he thinks his only magical power comes from that since he is clueless about Warlocks).

[joaber]

@SharkForce, 3rd lvl in warlock give to a sorcerer lvl 2 spell slots (to burn in SP), pact tome more cantrips and ritual (invocation), and you still have your 9th lvl spell. For most sorcerer builds (not all, but most) is the best deep option.

I don't think sorcerer 3 is the best warlock deep option in most cases. That's why I said that.

3 lvls in warlock add more to a lvl 17 sorcerer than reverse

[JoeJ]

I've always liked the onion stuff that comes in a packet and you mix with sour cream.

[tieren]

It doesn't get mentioned a lot but I like the Land Druid dip, particularly for a ranger.

The straight ranger doesn't feel magical enough for me, and going with the druid dip can get you a wider spell selection, and really better slot distribution using the MC table instead of the ranger one.

Also with good circle choice you can pick up some really handy spells (like invisibility or haste), and some short rest slot recovery via Natural recovery.

[SharkForce]

@SharkForce, 3rd lvl in warlock give to a sorcerer lvl 2 spell slots (to burn in SP), pact tome more cantrips and ritual (invocation), and you still have your 9th lvl spell. For most sorcerer builds (not all, but most) is the best deep option.

I don't think sorcerer 3 is the best warlock deep option in most cases. That's why I said that.

3 lvls in warlock add more to a lvl 17 sorcerer than reverse

3 levels of warlock takes away 3 levels of sorcerer spell progression. tome gives you cantrips you probably don't need (sorcerers already get quite a few), level 1-2 rituals only (if you can find them) but no higher. you are gaining 2 SP per short rest, but you are losing SP (or spell slots that are worth SP) to get them.

2 metamagic techniques is uncomfortably close to 50% of what makes the sorcerer even worth considering mechanically. because let's not fool ourselves, there aren't a lot of people playing sorcerer for the level 18 ability.

[joaber]

3 levels of warlock takes away 3 levels of sorcerer spell progression. tome gives you cantrips you probably don't need (sorcerers already get quite a few), level 1-2 rituals only (if you can find them) but no higher. you are gaining 2 SP per short rest, but you are losing SP (or spell slots that are worth SP) to get them.

2 metamagic techniques is uncomfortably close to 50% of what makes the sorcerer even worth considering mechanically. because let's not fool ourselves, there aren't a lot of people playing sorcerer for the level 18 ability.

lvl 3 warlock can give you a invisible find familiar, can give you darkness 2x encounter to use with devil sight. You really think the features of lvl 18 sorc worth more than that?
I never said you need to deep the third lvl warlock in the begging. This you was arguing with another person. be sorc 3/ warlock 2 looks better to me.
If I want to stay in the darkness shooting quicknned eldritch blasts "all day", I don't care if I'll delay my lvl 6 spell that I would use just one time.

[SharkForce]

you should care that you delay your level 6 spell that you'll use one time whether you go warlock or sorcerer main. you'll notice that when it was pointed out that it was a painful loss, I never said the level 6 spell was not a painful loss... I said it happened well after level 5, which was the cutoff point suggested.

if you can't figure out how to make a level 6 spell do a lot of work for you over the course of a day, well, that's not because the level 6 spell slot isn't a massive resource that can swing a fight or even an entire day's worth of fights in your favour.

but seriously, you need to stop arguing schrodinger's warlock. you can't be tome and chain at the same time, so stick to one or the other. if you do go chain, it adds a familiar, which is kinda nice. it isn't really all that much better than a regular familiar (there isn't really a huge difference between invisible and not worth noticing most of the time), but sure, it is something. worth being another level behind on spells? maybe, maybe not. I'm inclined to say not, but apparently we disagree on that.

[Safety Sword]

you should care that you delay your level 6 spell that you'll use one time whether you go warlock or sorcerer main. you'll notice that when it was pointed out that it was a painful loss, I never said the level 6 spell was not a painful loss... I said it happened well after level 5, which was the cutoff point suggested.

if you can't figure out how to make a level 6 spell do a lot of work for you over the course of a day, well, that's not because the level 6 spell slot isn't a massive resource that can swing a fight or even an entire day's worth of fights in your favour.

but seriously, you need to stop arguing schrodinger's warlock. you can't be tome and chain at the same time, so stick to one or the other. if you do go chain, it adds a familiar, which is kinda nice. it isn't really all that much better than a regular familiar (there isn't really a huge difference between invisible and not worth noticing most of the time), but sure, it is something. worth being another level behind on spells? maybe, maybe not. I'm inclined to say not, but apparently we disagree on that.

Generally speaking, Spellcasting is the most potent ability for classes that get it. It's nearly always better to be able to cast more powerful spells, and more of them.

[Steampunkette]

Artichoke, Spinach, and ,the most popular one on these forums, Cheese.

[joaber]

you should care that you delay your level 6 spell that you'll use one time whether you go warlock or sorcerer main. you'll notice that when it was pointed out that it was a painful loss, I never said the level 6 spell was not a painful loss... I said it happened well after level 5, which was the cutoff point suggested.

if you can't figure out how to make a level 6 spell do a lot of work for you over the course of a day, well, that's not because the level 6 spell slot isn't a massive resource that can swing a fight or even an entire day's worth of fights in your favour.

but seriously, you need to stop arguing schrodinger's warlock. you can't be tome and chain at the same time, so stick to one or the other. if you do go chain, it adds a familiar, which is kinda nice. it isn't really all that much better than a regular familiar (there isn't really a huge difference between invisible and not worth noticing most of the time), but sure, it is something. worth being another level behind on spells? maybe, maybe not. I'm inclined to say not, but apparently we disagree on that.

About the pact, was an exemple, I never said would get all together. I really think you're not reading what I'm, writing, but ok.

you think is good sorc 3/lock 2 is ok, but go sorc 5 /lock 2 to sorc 5 / lock 3 instead of sorc 6 is to much delay? Well, I need to desagree, because for many builds (most about avoid damage) lvl 2 spells are waaay better than lvl 1, so I get more 6 to 8 uses of that per day, I'll miss the lvl 6 spell? Maybe, but a couple of sessions and I get that to, right after you, now I'm lvl 11 sorc and you're 12, how was your spell progression in this lvl? None, but you get a feat/ASI. Half of the levels, your spell progression doesn't metter for 1 lvl deeper multiclass.

I'm not saying sorc17/lock3 is the "ultimate combo, only real option over power of the galaxy". It's all about choices, I'm choosing per encounter options, you're choosing per day. If I need the higher lvl spell I'll be think "why I did that stupid choise". If I took the daily spell and run out of good options in the end of the day I would think the same.

I only didn't understood why is so important to you that everybody agree with you about progression in the same class. In that case, do not multiclass at all.

[Malifice]

About the pact, was an exemple, I never said would get all together. I really think you're not reading what I'm, writing, but ok.

you think is good sorc 3/lock 2 is ok, but go sorc 5 /lock 2 to sorc 5 / lock 3 instead of sorc 6 is to much delay? Well, I need to desagree, because for many builds (most about avoid damage) lvl 2 spells are waaay better than lvl 1, so I get more 6 to 8 uses of that per day, I'll miss the lvl 6 spell? Maybe, but a couple of sessions and I get that to, right after you, now I'm lvl 11 sorc and you're 12, how was your spell progression in this lvl? None, but you get a feat/ASI. Half of the levels, your spell progression doesn't metter for 1 lvl deeper multiclass.

I'm not saying sorc17/lock3 is the "ultimate combo, only real option over power of the galaxy". It's all about choices, I'm choosing per encounter options, you're choosing per day. If I need the higher lvl spell I'll be think "why I did that stupid choise". If I took the daily spell and run out of good options in the end of the day I would think the same.

I only didn't understood why is so important to you that everybody agree with you about progression in the same class. In that case, do not multiclass at all.

What he is saying is that delaying your higher level spells by three whole levels (or 30+ encounters) is a steep price to pay. Also delaying your feat progression too.

You get some nice utility with a familiar from chain pact, and you have a few tricks that are situationally good, but when the straight Sorcerer or Warlock sitting next to you in the party starts tossing around fireballs or starts flying three levels before you, it hurts.

Assuming you play once per week and get around 3 encounters in per session, thats adds up to 10 weeks of pain. And of course by the time you catch up, the straight lock or sorc is tossing around Polymorphs and Teleporting, and when you catch up to mid tier, the straight caster is eying off wish and meteor swarm - so that pain never really goes away.

[SharkForce]

yeah, it's funny, i play with a 2nd edition group that uses the rules in the DMG for making classes (with lots of modifications). before i came in, they all liked to buy tons of extra abilities for their spellcasters, including a number of homebrew ones like double memorization, being able to use spell levels instead of spell slots (eg if you would gain a level 5 spell, you can use it to cast up to 5 spell levels of spells instead), and so on, all adding up to exp modifiers they considered acceptable. they also almost always included nearly full fighter abilities (full thaco, they liked buying two-weapon fighting and weapon specialization, the works), or sometimes both wizard and priest spells.

that all ended when i came in and made a spellcaster using their rules that required only 1200 exp to reach level 2 for the first time (slightly less than the lowest exp required for any official class in the game), which they had settled on as a "minimum exp requirement".

at first they were confused. shortly afterwards they understood: there is no better ability for a spellcaster than gaining levels. nothing else is as impactful. nothing else is as powerful as getting to those higher level spells earlier. getting twice as many spells per day is nice, but nobody cares how many magic missiles you can cast when i can throw a web or stinking cloud, never mind if i can get to fireball while you're just barely getting into level 2 spells. that didn't put an end to putting extra abilities into their spellcasters, but it drove home a simple truth.

nothing, and i mean nothing, is as straight-up powerful as getting higher level spells sooner. there is no ability available to any spellcaster that will outperform it in the game.

but of course, if you're going to dip because you want an ability anyways, that's fine... 5e won't break if you do. you don't need the higher level spells with extra penalties to saving throws just to land something on a giant that saves on a roll of 4 or better like you did in 2nd AD&D. but it really is painful to push your spellcasting back any more than absolutely necessary. if your character concept absolutely requires a pseudodragon familiar, then by all means get one... you'll be able to function. but it really is not optimal.

at level 11, with a 2 warlock dip, you will have a level 5 spell slot, which if you are *really* desperate you can convert into 5 sorcery points. you will also have an extra level 4 spell slot, which can be converted into 4 sorcery points. unless you are getting 5 short rests per day, that is *more* sorcery points than a third level of warlock would give you (you're already getting 2 per rest from the first 2 levels, so level 3 is only 2 more). the difference being of course that you also get to know up to 2 5th level spells, which no invocation at level 3 can compete with, and that if you count those spells at what it would cost to buy them instead of sell them, it would be *13* sorcery points in value.

seriously, that third level of warlock... it probably doesn't do as much for you as you think it does. honestly, in terms of character power, the first two probably didn't either. it can be an interesting choice to add it in, but if we're talking about strongest sorcerer build, it's sorcerer clear through from level 1-20.

i don't really consider warlock to offer all that much to a sorcerer. i do consider the other way around to potentially offer something (and of course, should you ever find yourself at 17 levels of warlock and about to gain a level, i don't think there's too many optimizers in the world who wouldn't tell you to multiclass out of warlock and no matter what second class you pick, it's almost guaranteed to offer more than warlock 18-20).

[joaber]

What he is saying is that delaying your higher level spells by three whole levels (or 30+ encounters) is a steep price to pay. Also delaying your feat progression too.

You get some nice utility with a familiar from chain pact, and you have a few tricks that are situationally good, but when the straight Sorcerer or Warlock sitting next to you in the party starts tossing around fireballs or starts flying three levels before you, it hurts.

Assuming you play once per week and get around 3 encounters in per session, thats adds up to 10 weeks of pain. And of course by the time you catch up, the straight lock or sorc is tossing around Polymorphs and Teleporting, and when you catch up to mid tier, the straight caster is eying off wish and meteor swarm - so that pain never really goes away.

that pain normally happen in 3-4 encounters/day, you did the biggest part in the others 3 to 4. "Grass in the neighbor's garden is always greener".
In some levels, it hurt more to you, but in others...

This is great in multiclass in this edition, never is 100% win.


@SharkForce , just a correction, the convertion for SP is:

lvl1 = 2
lvl2 = 3
lvl3 = 5
lvl4 = 6
lvl5 = 7

This desn't matter that much. But is not just about SP or spell slots, it's about more spell slots, more spells know, the best damage cantrip, invocations, patron. I'm not deeping 2 or 3 lvls just to get an imp, or shillelagh to use with booming blade + guidance, this is good, but doesn't worth 3 lvls. But when you add all? Yeah, I can wait my nova turn with more utility during all day.

[Malifice]

that pain normally happen in 3-4 encounters/day, you did the biggest part in the others 3 to 4. "Grass in the neighbor's garden is always greener".

Advancing three levels takes time mate. And sitting three whole levels behind a single classed caster hurts.


This desn't matter that much. But is not just about SP or spell slots, it's about more spell slots, more spells know, the best damage cantrip, invocations, patron. I'm not deeping 2 or 3 lvls just to get an imp, or shillelagh to use with booming blade + guidance, this is good, but doesn't worth 3 lvls. But when you add all? Yeah, I can wait my nova turn with more utility during all day.

You dont get much better utility that that Imp bro. Only wild shape trumps it for mine.

[joaber]

Advancing three levels takes time mate. And sitting three whole levels behind a single classed caster hurts.



You dont get much better utility that that Imp bro. Only wild shape trumps it for mine.

I understand your opinion. 3 levels really take time, and you looking your friend casting higher lvl spells is sad, but what the sorcerer do in the rest of the day? lvl 6 sorcerer with his fireball, 10 spell slots total for 30+ actions in a day? You envy 3 actions he take, he envies you every time you cast your tunned eldritch strike, your darkness vision, your telepathy or temporary hit points, your extra spells know (this hurt a pure sorcerer or warlock so much) and even your god dammit invisible tiny imp.

you see, hurt for everyone, nothing is perfect, we always lose something.
And then I'll envy the fighter damage, that onion druid and his hp pool, the "do everything bastard bard", that cursed paladin defense/ofense/boost...

There isn't just one true in 5e, really is very balanced edition multiclassing or not.

[Malifice]

I understand your opinion. 3 levels really take time, and you looking your friend casting higher lvl spells is sad, but what the sorcerer do in the rest of the day? lvl 6 sorcerer with his fireball, 10 spell slots total for 30+ actions in a day? You envy 3 actions he take, he envies you every time you cast your tunned eldritch strike, your darkness vision, your telepathy or temporary hit points, your extra spells know (this hurt a pure sorcerer or warlock so much) and even your god dammit invisible tiny imp.

you see, hurt for everyone, nothing is perfect, we always lose something.
And then I'll envy the fighter damage, that onion druid and his hp pool, the "do everything bastard bard", that cursed paladin defense/ofense/boost...

There isn't just one true in 5e, really is very balanced edition multiclassing or not.

For sure - having 2 x 2nd level slots per short rest is nice. Add to that a few warlock invocations and a better at will option than a pure Sorcerer and the utility of the Imp and its a totally viable option.

Im just saying that pure Sorcerer is perfectly viable too. Gets its stats (and thus save DCs) up faster, gets access to higher level spells earlier, gets metamagic earlier etc. Particularly from mid levels onwards you should have enough juice to last your 6-8 encounter AD. Magic items like wands and staves certainly help a lot also.

[Gwendol]

Dipping classes is as always a balance between MADness, utility, and lost/gained opportunities.
Before we start seeing dual advancement classes (theurge, or the likes of feats such as Daring Outlaw, Song of the White Raven, Devoted Performer, Ascetic X, Swift Hunter) the cost will nearly always outweigh the benefit, especially since you already have a number of different half-caster classes.

[Syll]

Dipping classes is as always a balance between MADness, utility, and lost/gained opportunities.
Before we start seeing dual advancement classes (theurge, or the likes of feats such as Daring Outlaw, Song of the White Raven, Devoted Performer, Ascetic X, Swift Hunter) the cost will nearly always outweigh the benefit, especially since you already have a number of different half-caster classes.

The half caster classes are how I justify my dips, actually. Taking 2 levels of pld before I started sorcerer puts me behind a full caster for sure... But still way ahead of those same half casters in terms of both spell slots and progression.

[Waffle_Iron]

I wonder what a good multi dip build would be. Like fighter 3 / rogue 3 / paladin 5 / warlock 3 / sorcerer 3 / bard 3 /

I'd trade pally 5 for ranger 3. You keep hunters mark, and pick up a hunting style. Yoi trade a STR requirement for MC with one for WIS, which is a good trade. You can rely on DEX for attack rolls, and you improve a primary saving throw stat that you were most likely dumping.

Then take the two level difference and put it in sorcerer, for access to 3rd level spells, and 2 more sorcery points. Yes, you lose the extra attack, but with all those classes, you were probably relying on GFB or BB cantrips anyway.

[Gwendol]

The half caster classes are how I justify my dips, actually. Taking 2 levels of pld before I started sorcerer puts me behind a full caster for sure... But still way ahead of those same half casters in terms of both spell slots and progression.

Sure, but that's exactly the choice to be made: the abilities of two levels of paladin vs the full monty vs the spell-casting ability of a sorcerer two levels behind. Also, comparing to a half-caster class is a decent gague.

[joaber]

For sure - having 2 x 2nd level slots per short rest is nice. Add to that a few warlock invocations and a better at will option than a pure Sorcerer and the utility of the Imp and its a totally viable option.

Im just saying that pure Sorcerer is perfectly viable too. Gets its stats (and thus save DCs) up faster, gets access to higher level spells earlier, gets metamagic earlier etc. Particularly from mid levels onwards you should have enough juice to last your 6-8 encounter AD. Magic items like wands and staves certainly help a lot also.

Exactly, single class is great too. There isn't just one good way, there is a lot of options to lot of goals.