Need help with a build

[Spectre9000]

I want a build that's legal for Adventurers league, and not quite sure of the rules specific to it as I've not done an Adventurers League yet.

Planning on going Human (Variant) Fighter 1, Warlock (Great Old one) 1, Paladin 11 currently, and dual wielding warhammers focusing on divine smite, elemental weapon, armor of agathys, and eldritch blast. I want a Dual Wielding Spellblade type character. I'm thinking of going with a point buy of 15 Str/15 Cha/14 Con/10 Wis/8 Int/8 Dex, and putting the two +1's from Human Variant into Str and Cha.

Fighter 1, Dual Wielder Feat, Two-Weapon Fighting Style
Warlock 1, Great Old One, Pick Eldritch Blast, Armor of Agathys for spells
Paladin 1-4, Oath of Vengeance, War Caster Feat, Defense Fighting Style
Paladin 5-8, Ritual Caster Feat
Paladin 9-11

Not sure what to get after this point. I went Great Old One Patron for Awakened Mind for telepathic flavor. I chose Oath of Vengeance, cause I want to utilize the fact that in 5e paladins gain their powers from their conviction to their cause rather than directly from a god, and make that conviction more personal giving a more anti-hero presence.

Backstory is that I was outcast as a child due to a birthmark villagers believed to be an ill omen (though it truly is just a birthmark). An Half-Elf Wizard, exiled from Elven society for pursuing what was deemed darker magic, found me, and took me in. Though kind in his way, the pursuit of knowledge drove my Master, making him oft seem cold, especially since I wasn't the most studious of children. I learned from a young age that I learned better through action, than from theory, and took up the martial arts, though some of my Masters arcane knowledge sunk in. My Masters library held numerous volumes on the Martial Studies and though preferring less physical activities My Masters own knowledge was ample in the Martial Arts as well. I would spend only a few minutes each day reading some new technique before going out to practice and attempt to perfect it. I even eventually tried my hand in fighting tourneys held throughout various local villages, gaining significant skill in the process. It appeared as if things would continue in this manner throughout the foreseeable future until the day they came. My Master had always been careful in his pursuit of forbidden knowledge, always expecting retaliation from the eldritch powers he scryed for knowledge, he was always setting up wards and defensive spells and it seemed to indeed keep those powers at bay. I still don't know how they managed to break through all my Masters defenses. I returned to the demiplane my master called home one day to find them ransacking his library and belongings. Caught by surprise, I was quickly overwhelmed and bound. They brought me to where they had my Master, bound by magical chains to a battered bookshelf, exhausted and visibly beaten. They forced me to watch was they tortured him, never asking for anything from him. Days, which felt like eons, passed as they continued his torture, all the while I was forced to sit there, bound, and watch my Master suffer. On the final day, their leader, a bald man, with an eyepatch with a violet reddish phoenix embroidered upon it, one hand upon a fiendish blade, walked up and quietly, though loudly enough for me to hear, said to my Master, "The physical price for your transgressions have been paid. Now, shall your soul pay for its sins." As he finished his sentence, he produced a crystal which began sucking the soul out of my Master's body. I can still remember the scream he let out at that moment, when his soul was torn from his physical body. Once he was done with my Master, the leader turned to me, saying "Remember well, what happens to those who cross powers beyond them," and proceded to magically burn a symbol of a phoenix into my forehead. They beat me, unbound me and left me to my misery and sorrow. However, if they thought that would break me they were wrong. As the days passed after that moment sadness turned to vengeance, frustration to rage, and helplessness to resolve. Upon the blackened phoenix scar on my forhead I resolved myself, and upon that emblem I swore my oath of vengeance; that I would have justice, vengeance, and redemption for my masters soul. I would be a force unhindered, unyielding, and undeniable. Since my oath I have gained new strength and bring wrath to bear on all who would be an enemy in my hunt.

TL;DR Vengeance Paladin due to Master, who took me in after me being abandoned due to superstition, being killed by unknown group which inevitably lead to some eldritch power that can never truly be beaten, thus perpetuating my oath of vengeance, whilst also dabbling in the arcane knowledge my Master gleaned.

I plan to use the scar on my forehead as my holy emblem.

Please feel free to critique my story and RP as well as my build.

The things I want out of this build are:

Dual Wielding
Magical Power channeled through physical attacks
Plate Armor
Long lasting buffs (Elemental Weapon / Armor of Agathys / Improved Divine Smite)



I cringe at the feedback I'll receive, but please point out every flaw you can see, and every suggestion you might have. I can only make this better by knowing all this.

[Nicodiemus]

Hold on.... lemme grab my cane.

Only saying that cuz I'm about to go on a mini rant about "the good ole days."

First, it's a cool story and it supports your build. That being said- characters don't start off as 13th level characters. They start off as just a fighter or just a monk and they grow into these heroes based on the incredible things that happen to them. Sure, everyone wants a 2 dip in fighter for action surge or whatever but whatever happened to the good ole days... red box set days where there weren't even race and class. If you were an elf you were an elf. Now there's a dozen classes and 20 races and everyone wants to be a half aracockra (sp?)/ half goliath paladin/ warlock/ druid/ thief/ monk.

I guess what my advice would be is: there is no perfect character. .. no perfect build. It sounds like you have a solid concept. If YOU like it and YOU'D have fun playing it- Go for it. But let the character grow, because sometimes they grow into something unexpected, and memorable.

[bid]

I plan to use the scar on my forehead as my holy emblem.
Holy symbol, p151.

At the very least, there should be a way to confiscate your holy symbol. I don't think lopping your head off is the plan here.:smalltongue:

[Corran]

Two weapon fighting is a really bad choice in this edition for anyone who is not a single class melee rogue. Especially for vengeance paladins, between hunter's mark, vow of enmity, smite spells and other spells, have so many ways to use their bonus action, and with heir extra attack feature they will lose in damage or AC by going with TWF.

Even if you decide to go with TWF, avoid dual wielder, this feat is just a plain trap, there is always a better feat to take than dual wielder feat, avoid it at all costs.

The fighting stye associated with TWF is not anything special as well. And starting fighter for the con save when you want to play a paladin as your main class, is a really bad move which is falsely glorified by many who dont really grasp the loses of such a choice.

I doubt they will let you have your scar work as a holy symbol, at least without taking the warcaster feat. Again, another reason why TWF is bad for you. If you were using S&B or a two hander, you wouldnt even need warcaster for your paladin spells.

Cool backstory. I suggest playing just a paladin, maybe with a 2 level dip in warlock (although that is not essential, OoV alone fits just fine your backstory) for some short rest r echargable spell slots (more smites), and good ranged charisma based attack (EB + agonizing blast), some cantrips (EB and perhaps BB/GFB/utility cantrip for flavour), and a couple of invocations (agonizing blast, devil's sight/or sth else for flavour). Even a third level in warlock for some 2nd level rcane spells would be nice (darkness + devil's sight works well with GWM, and GWM works well with greatsword vengeance).

Personally I would go with OoV paladin until level 6 (str based and using a greatsword/maul, GWM feat is a must have in that case), and then perhaps I would look to multiclass if sth picked my interest (mechanic-wise or roleplaying-wise). Though haste at level 9 and IDS at level 11 seem tasty (and a feat at level 8, aura of courage t level 10, and several more good 3rd level spells again at level 9) might make me just go straight to paladin 11 before even considering multiclassing. In this case, GWM and resilient con are a must-have before level 9, when haste kicks in.

You wont be able to make the most of armor of agathys with a heavy paladin build. This spell works better with full spellcaster progression.

Another way to go about your build, and it fits your concept, is with a fighter/warlock multiclass. Start as a fighter for the proficiencies, and then go with warlcok untill 6th level (5th level warlock), then perhaps take a couple more fighter levels (battlemaster), then all the way with warlock. Fiend warlock works better. If you play GOO, you can justify your warlock progression by saying that your character has in his possessions some journals of his masters, which started studying between the adventures, and he stratted unlocking the same power that fueld his master (GOO flavour suggest an approach by studying journals and the such). Again in this case, a grwatsword or a maul would work fine.

[djreynolds]

I think the OPs design is to get as many attack in and bank on that extra 1d8 radiant damage, and he could do that with polearm master and snag GWM and use the bless spell like it was free.

And using polearm master is basically two-weapon fighting if you look at it, minus the feats, take GWS. Just flavor the polearm to do blunt damage

[Spectre9000]

Two weapon fighting is a really bad choice in this edition for anyone who is not a single class melee rogue. Especially for vengeance paladins, between hunter's mark, vow of enmity, smite spells and other spells, have so many ways to use their bonus action, and with heir extra attack feature they will lose in damage or AC by going with TWF.

Even if you decide to go with TWF, avoid dual wielder, this feat is just a plain trap, there is always a better feat to take than dual wielder feat, avoid it at all costs.


How do you come to the conclusion that Dual Wielder is a trap? It allows you to not need light weapons, which is an increase in DPR, +1 AC, and allows me to draw both weapons as one action. Seems like everything Two-Weapon Fighters are lacking imo.

As to Damage, lets say you have THF vs TWF since this seems to be the most used comparison. Let's compare at level 11 for Improved Divine Smite plus Extra Attack to see which deals more damage. For THF you have (using a Greatsword) 2D6 + 1D8 times two damage (assuming both attacks hit), which gives you a damage range of 6-40. With Great Weapon Fighting, this changes to 18-40, a fair increase, as it affects the Improved Divine Smite damage as well, for an ADPR of 29. With TWF you have (using Warhammers) 1D8 + 1D8 times three (assuming all three attacks hit), which gives you a range of 6-48, or 27 ADPR. TWF gives 2 ADPR less than THF, however, when you consider that attacks are geared towards hitting rather than missing due to gaining ability bonus and proficiency to hit, your three TWF attacks are going to be more reliable than your two THF attacks, and close that gap. Now let's say you went One-handed with a Shield, the damage would be 1D8 + 1D8 times two for a range of 4-24, which with Dueling is brought to 8-28, for 18 ADPR, which is a significant reduction in damage, for only +1 AC over Dual Wielding, though +2 over THF.

In Summary:

Paladin Level 11 (Improved Divine Smite, Extra Attack)

Greatsword (Great Weapon Fighting Style)
2D6 + 1D8 x2 = 18-40 DPR = 29 ADPR
+0 AC

2x Warhammers (Dual Wielder Feat, Protection Fighting Style)
1D8 + 1D8 x3 = 6-48 DPR = 27 ADPR
+2 AC

Warhammer and Shield (Dueling Style)
1D8 + 1D8 + 2 x2 = 8-28 DPR = 18 ADPR
+2 AC

Granted, this grows more complex when you add Criticals and to Hit Chance to the mix, however, TWF provides a significant bonus to AC (+2 easily), and a good ADPR. Additionally, none of these options allow for spellcasting (with a Somatic component) without the Warcaster feat as they all require two hands occupied. I also don't need to cast smite as a bonus action if I can simply channel Divine Smite on hit. Sure, it might be a one trick pony, but it's a reliable one-trick pony. Also, incidentally, Smites don't require a Somatic component and thus don't need a free hand.



The fighting stye associated with TWF is not anything special as well. And starting fighter for the con save when you want to play a paladin as your main class, is a really bad move which is falsely glorified by many who dont really grasp the loses of such a choice.


I started with Fighter so I could go Dual Wield from the start and also it follows the flavor of my backstory, having started training in the Martial Arts, then picking up some arcane knowledge, then swearing my vow. As to the Saving throws, those are largely irrelevant with Aura of Protection at level 6 if you have good Charisma, which you should.



I doubt they will let you have your scar work as a holy symbol, at least without taking the warcaster feat. Again, another reason why TWF is bad for you. If you were using S&B or a two hander, you wouldnt even need warcaster for your paladin spells.


A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment o f a sacred relic. Appendix B lists the symbols commonly associated with many gods in the multiverse. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.

Bolding in holy symbol description highlights the use of an emblem as a holy symbol that isn't detachable. The requirement is that it has to be some symbol representing your power and it must be visible, not that you have to brandish it with a free hand. Additionally, having a spellcasting focus isn't technically needed to cast spells, since you could have it, a component pouch, or the actual materials needed for the spell. Having the Symbol represent a God actually contradicts a Paladins nature in this edition considering a Paladin doesn't need to draw upon a Gods powers for his/her powers, as they can be gained through his/her own personal convictions. If this is an issue, however, I can just simply forgo a holy symbol for a component pouch, or neither since a lot of paladin spells don't have material components.

Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin’s power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god.



Cool backstory. I suggest playing just a paladin, maybe with a 2 level dip in warlock (although that is not essential, OoV alone fits just fine your backstory) for some short rest r echargable spell slots (more smites), and good ranged charisma based attack (EB + agonizing blast), some cantrips (EB and perhaps BB/GFB/utility cantrip for flavour), and a couple of invocations (agonizing blast, devil's sight/or sth else for flavour). Even a third level in warlock for some 2nd level rcane spells would be nice (darkness + devil's sight works well with GWM, and GWM works well with greatsword vengeance).

Personally I would go with OoV paladin until level 6 (str based and using a greatsword/maul, GWM feat is a must have in that case), and then perhaps I would look to multiclass if sth picked my interest (mechanic-wise or roleplaying-wise). Though haste at level 9 and IDS at level 11 seem tasty (and a feat at level 8, aura of courage t level 10, and several more good 3rd level spells again at level 9) might make me just go straight to paladin 11 before even considering multiclassing. In this case, GWM and resilient con are a must-have before level 9, when haste kicks in.

You wont be able to make the most of armor of agathys with a heavy paladin build. This spell works better with full spellcaster progression.

Another way to go about your build, and it fits your concept, is with a fighter/warlock multiclass. Start as a fighter for the proficiencies, and then go with warlcok untill 6th level (5th level warlock), then perhaps take a couple more fighter levels (battlemaster), then all the way with warlock. Fiend warlock works better. If you play GOO, you can justify your warlock progression by saying that your character has in his possessions some journals of his masters, which started studying between the adventures, and he stratted unlocking the same power that fueld his master (GOO flavour suggest an approach by studying journals and the such). Again in this case, a grwatsword or a maul would work fine.

I'm not sure how far I want to go in warlock, honestly. The first three levels are pretty big for that class and definitely would be a boon. However, as you mentioned, a full spell progression would be good, and if from level 13 (1 Ft, 1 lock, 11 Paladin), I could go 1 more level of paladin and 5 levels of pure caster and unlock a 6th level spell slot. If I could drop the 1 level in Fighter or 1 in Warlock, I could go 7 levels of pure caster for a 7th level spell slot, which would be ideal for Elemental Weapon. Even better if I could get twinned spell metamagic and use it on both weapons for insane damage increase plus Elemental Affinity to add Charisma to that. The damage at that point would be surreal. This would be very late game however, and I doubt I'll reach this point.




I think the OPs design is to get as many attack in and bank on that extra 1d8 radiant damage, and he could do that with polearm master and snag GWM and use the bless spell like it was free.

And using polearm master is basically two-weapon fighting if you look at it, minus the feats, take GWS. Just flavor the polearm to do blunt damage


This is my intent. I'll look into this, though from initial glance, I don't know that this would be better than an off-hand weapon, though the reach is nice.


Edit: I'm doing TWF for flavor mostly and trying to make it optimal so it's not so sub-par like it has been in previous editions. I actually think TWF is significantly better in this edition than it has been.

[Spacehamster]

With twf vs gwf people always say it's the +10 damage from the gwf feat that pulls it ahead, but does not that -5 to hit just make you miss and do 0 damage all the time?

[bid]

With twf vs gwf people always say it's the +10 damage from the gwf feat that pulls it ahead, but does not that -5 to hit just make you miss and do 0 damage all the time?
GWM -5/+10 is roughly worth +2 DPR per attack.

[Spacehamster]

GWM -5/+10 is roughly worth +2 DPR per attack.

In my group the two barbarians never use it, but that is prob more due to them forgetting and not beeing well versed with the game yet.

[bid]

In Summary:

Paladin Level 11 (Improved Divine Smite, Extra Attack)

Greatsword (Great Weapon Fighting Style)
2D6 + 1D8 x2 = 18-40 DPR = 29 ADPR
+0 AC

2x Warhammers (Dual Wielder Feat, Protection Fighting Style)
1D8 + 1D8 x3 = 6-48 DPR = 27 ADPR
+2 AC

Warhammer and Shield (Dueling Style)
1D8 + 1D8 + 2 x2 = 8-28 DPR = 18 ADPR
+2 AC
You did not calculated gwf properly and you forgot to add your Str16.

Greatsword (Great Weapon Fighting Style)
2D6 + 1D8 + 4/3 x2 +3x2 = 12-52 DPR = 31.7 ADPR
+0 AC

2x Warhammers (Dual Wielder Feat, Defense Fighting Style)
1D8 + 1D8 x3 +3x2 = 12-54 DPR = 33 ADPR
+2 AC

Warhammer and Shield (Dueling Style)
1D8 + 1D8 + 2 x2 +3x2 = 14-42 DPR = 28 ADPR
+2 AC

[PoeticDwarf]

Two weapon fighting is a really bad choice in this edition for anyone who is not a single class melee rogue. Especially for vengeance paladins, between hunter's mark, vow of enmity, smite spells and other spells, have so many ways to use their bonus action, and with heir extra attack feature they will lose in damage or AC by going with TWF.

Even if you decide to go with TWF, avoid dual wielder, this feat is just a plain trap, there is always a better feat to take than dual wielder feat, avoid it at all costs.

The fighting stye associated with TWF is not anything special as well. And starting fighter for the con save when you want to play a paladin as your main class, is a really bad move which is falsely glorified by many who dont really grasp the loses of such a choice.

I doubt they will let you have your scar work as a holy symbol, at least without taking the warcaster feat. Again, another reason why TWF is bad for you. If you were using S&B or a two hander, you wouldnt even need warcaster for your paladin spells.

Cool backstory. I suggest playing just a paladin, maybe with a 2 level dip in warlock (although that is not essential, OoV alone fits just fine your backstory) for some short rest r echargable spell slots (more smites), and good ranged charisma based attack (EB + agonizing blast), some cantrips (EB and perhaps BB/GFB/utility cantrip for flavour), and a couple of invocations (agonizing blast, devil's sight/or sth else for flavour). Even a third level in warlock for some 2nd level rcane spells would be nice (darkness + devil's sight works well with GWM, and GWM works well with greatsword vengeance).

Personally I would go with OoV paladin until level 6 (str based and using a greatsword/maul, GWM feat is a must have in that case), and then perhaps I would look to multiclass if sth picked my interest (mechanic-wise or roleplaying-wise). Though haste at level 9 and IDS at level 11 seem tasty (and a feat at level 8, aura of courage t level 10, and several more good 3rd level spells again at level 9) might make me just go straight to paladin 11 before even considering multiclassing. In this case, GWM and resilient con are a must-have before level 9, when haste kicks in.

You wont be able to make the most of armor of agathys with a heavy paladin build. This spell works better with full spellcaster progression.

Another way to go about your build, and it fits your concept, is with a fighter/warlock multiclass. Start as a fighter for the proficiencies, and then go with warlcok untill 6th level (5th level warlock), then perhaps take a couple more fighter levels (battlemaster), then all the way with warlock. Fiend warlock works better. If you play GOO, you can justify your warlock progression by saying that your character has in his possessions some journals of his masters, which started studying between the adventures, and he stratted unlocking the same power that fueld his master (GOO flavour suggest an approach by studying journals and the such). Again in this case, a grwatsword or a maul would work fine.
Dual wielding fight style vs just dueling
Dueling gives +1AC and +1 feat and +2dmg
Two weapon fighting gives if you want an extra 3d8+3/4/5 damage (feature) more with buffs (as mentioned stuff like hunter's mark). TWF is pretty strong, not OP but not bad AT ALL

See this is already said above. Although above TWF gets a free feat (and should get a second fight style)