4 arms and two weapon fightning question

[thecrimsondawn]

So the Alchemist discovery that gives you extra arms says you cant use it for extra attacks, but the Feral Mutagen gives you two claw attacks and a bite attack. Since you now have these attacks you can - thus, use said arms to claw with. If you are two weapon fighting and you have more then one arm, It is my understanding that the TWF feat becomes multiweapon fighting for free?

That being the case or no, the reason I am making this post is related to the path of war. Several stances and moves say "when two weapon fighting" or "when fighting with two weapons", what would happen in this case? I will give a couple examples.

The Battle Dragon's Stance shows the disciple how to balance his fighting style and through this centering of being, he may find speed, finesse, and power. While in the Battle Dragon's Stance, the disciple reduces his two-weapon fighting penalties by 2, and gains a +4 bonus to Initiative checks and adds 1d6 + initiation modifier to melee damage while fighting with two weapons.

The disciple of the Broken Blade has learned the flows of combat to a degree and has the insight necessary to see the path to victory through the patterns of steel his opponents weave before his eyes. While in this stance, the initiator gains a competence bonus equal to his initiator level to Acrobatics checks to avoid attacks of opportunity, and may make an additional attack when making a full attack action. If the initiator is two weapon fighting, he gains this extra attack for both hands. The attack(s) uses the initiator's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.

What exactly would happen in these situations?

[grarrrg]

So the Alchemist discovery that gives you extra arms says you cant use it for extra attacks, but the Feral Mutagen gives you two claw attacks and a bite attack. Since you now have these attacks you can - thus, use said arms to claw with.

The "just add claws" loophole was closed with the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5):
"The exact same restrictions would apply if ... had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round".


If you are two weapon fighting and you have more then one arm, It is my understanding that the TWF feat becomes multiweapon fighting for free?

Correct.
This becomes a weird DM call if it applies to a Vestigial Arm Alchemists however, as for Fighting purposes they do NOT have 3+ arms.


That being the case or no, the reason I am making this post is related to the path of war. Several stances and moves say "when two weapon fighting" or "when fighting with two weapons", what would happen in this case? I will give a couple examples.

The Battle Dragon's Stance shows the disciple how to balance his fighting style and through this centering of being, he may find speed, finesse, and power. While in the Battle Dragon's Stance, the disciple reduces his two-weapon fighting penalties by 2, and gains a +4 bonus to Initiative checks and adds 1d6 + initiation modifier to melee damage while fighting with two weapons.

The disciple of the Broken Blade has learned the flows of combat to a degree and has the insight necessary to see the path to victory through the patterns of steel his opponents weave before his eyes. While in this stance, the initiator gains a competence bonus equal to his initiator level to Acrobatics checks to avoid attacks of opportunity, and may make an additional attack when making a full attack action. If the initiator is two weapon fighting, he gains this extra attack for both hands. The attack(s) uses the initiator's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.

What exactly would happen in these situations?

Ultimately a DM call (unless someone can find something official).
Possible rulings:
*Everything applies to "all" weapons. Which might be a bit strong in certain cases.
*You must specifically be using two, and only two, weapons to get the benefits. Which is the 'less fun' but more manageable option.

[thecrimsondawn]

While I understand the reasoning behind the just add claws debate, if you are say - a level 2 alchemist and you gain 2 claw attacks and a bite attack, it would follow UMR's for extra attacks. If it did not, you would be nerfing yourself with a class feature since natural attacks are meant to do less damage then weapon counterparts for each size category. If you only had 1 attack out of your 2 claws, bite, and any weapon you may have, whats the point of even getting that?
The arms do not give you extra attacks, but adding claws does. The arms are now not giving you extra attacks, the Feral Mutagen is.
Also if you cant use the arms in this way, then you are really limiting there use to next to nothing. They have item slots, but you cant wear extra items. They can hold weapons or gain claws, but they cant attack, Aside from duel wielding two handed weapons, or wielding a shield and a two handed weapon, what else can you do?
Am I just overlooking an obvious use?

[grarrrg]

Am I just overlooking an obvious use?

The most obvious is having 2 hands on weapons/shield, while keeping a free hand for Extract usage. If you get the 4th hand, have a Scroll/Wand ready for UMD maybe?

Another option is to 2-hand a Reach weapon and have a 1-handed weapon. Attack with the weapon of your choice during your turn, and have either option available for making AoO's.

The less Alchemical use is to go Gunslinger and dip 2 levels for the extra arm. That way you can TWF Pistols and still reload.


Vestigial Arm is one of the most doesn't-work-how-you-think-it-should abilities there is.

For starters, it should have just said "you cannot use these arms to make attacks of any kind". That would solve the majority of the FAQ issues right there.

And/or it should have just said "you're always considered to have a Free Hand when it comes to using Extracts/Bombs." And for the 2nd time you take it...maybe "can retrieve stowed items as a Swift Action" or something.
The whole "well, you -can- use it to attack, but that defeats the point because you have to skip a different attack" nonsense it just plain dumb.

As for the Tentacle, just make it a Secondary Natural that can NOT hold items and be done with it.

[Felyndiira]

That being the case or no, the reason I am making this post is related to the path of war. Several stances and moves say "when two weapon fighting" or "when fighting with two weapons", what would happen in this case? I will give a couple examples.

What exactly would happen in these situations?
I have asked this question before in the Dreamscarred Press FAQ Thread (link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19552562&postcount=188)), with the following reply:


Q: Can Thrashing Dragon (and "...while two-weapon fighting" maneuvers) be used with Multiweapon Fighting for initiators capable of wielding more than two weapons? If so, do maneuvers that say "two weapons" still limit the initiator to two attacks?

A: By RAW, yes they can be used with Multiweapon Fighting. You're still limited to the number of attacks specified by the maneuver.

From this FAQ, Battle Dragon Stance would add its extra damage to all your attacks (since there were no limits to "melee damage" specified in the stance - if you were TWF full attacking with secondary natural weapons, the damage would also be added to your natural weapon attacks).

Broken Blade Stance would still only add 2 extra attacks, since that's the explicit limit given by the stance.

However, for Battle Dragon Stance, do note:


Q: Do Thrashing Dragon effects (boosts and stances) that specify "...while two-weapon fighting" still work when the disciple is wielding two weapons, but is only able to attack with one (for example, on an attack of opportunity) and thus not taking penalties due to TWF?

A: No.