Swashbuckler Toujours l’Audace Clarification

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. So for a quick question, the way Toujours l’Audace is worded:
In addition, you can use Sneak Attack with any
melee attack made against a target that has none
of your allies adjacent to it.
Makes it sound like you automatically get sneak attack on an enemy every time, as long as you don't have any of your buddies next to them. This seems ridiculous, so could someone please clarify?

[MaxWilson]

Hey guys. So for a quick question, the way Toujours l’Audace is worded:
Makes it sound like you automatically get sneak attack on an enemy every time, as long as you don't have any of your buddies next to them. This seems ridiculous, so could someone please clarify?

You must be using the Playtest version. The SCAG version no longer has a French name (it's now Rakish Audacity) and it says "you don't need advantage on your attack roll to use Sneak Attack if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you."

[Nicodiemus]

It actually states "...you don't need advantage if no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you"

This can be harder to accomplish than you might think in urban/dungeon settings. But yeah, it's that nasty.

[MeeposFire]

Essentially you have greater freedom to choose your targets. Generally speaking I have had little trouble getting sneak attack nearly every round but I don't always get to use it on someone I want this helps with that.

[Teapot Salty]

So how does the DPS stack up against say, a fighter, or paladin?

[RickAllison]

So how does the DPS stack up against say, a fighter, or paladin?

In a straight damage-fest, not so well, at least in my experience. The real beauty of the Swashbuckler is its mobility. In our last encounter, we were facing two flesh golems near the entrance, three crossbowmen, and the necromancer boss. Where the paladin and fighter had to distract themselves with the golems at the entrance, my Swashbuckler zipped on ahead and actually managed to take down the wizard before he could even get off a spell. This was with a help from our casters to take up his first turn's action, but he was still down by the second (party of level 6). The mobility of the class is fantastic for getting to those who would rather NOT be stabbed in every orifice, as they don't have the HP to stand up to the assault. Thus, they have an important place despite the lower damage output.

[MaxWilson]

So how does the DPS stack up against say, a fighter, or paladin?

Depends on AC. A dual-wielding swashbuckler is competitive with regular fighter attacks at least through level 11; but he doesn't match up well to GWM or Sharpshooter attacks exploiting the -5/+10 option, which means the Swashbuckler will excel against high-AC targets like solo monsters whereas the GWM/Sharpshooter will excel against low-AC trash mobs.

Paladins have the option to (unwisely) spend their spell slots boosting their DPR, so they'll be able to nova better than a Swashbuckler; but in any adventure where actually losing is a potential danger, the paladin will run out of steam pretty quickly while the Swashbuckler keeps on doing his high DPR round after round after round. Your overall DPR will come out better than the Paladin.

Panache is a really interesting feature which I'd like to see in action. On paper it looks like it turns the Swashbuckler into a first-rate tank, especially if you e.g. Cunning Action: Hide and then taunt it from hiding (note: it has to be able to hear you, not see you). Unlike the Long Death monk you don't get the movement-control aspects of Fear--but on the plus side, you get to leverage your ridiculously-high (Expertised) Persuasion skill against the enemy's probably-not-even-proficient Wisdom (Insight) check, and Legendary Resistance does not apply! If not for the anti-synergy with one of my favorite feats (Mobile) I'd be dying to play a Swashbuckler just for the dragon-slaying.

If you're playing with standard cyclic initiative (which I honestly find pretty boring) remember to Ready an action to taunt (with Panache) after your last ally attacks it before its turn, not before. That way it still has disadvantage on its turn.

Even so I think Swashbuckler 10/Bladesinger 10 is a potentially-interesting gishy combination, though it's pretty bonus action-heavy. Take Expertise in Athletics, Persuasion, Stealth, and Perception. Now you can make two attacks per round (Grapple/Prone one enemy, Enlarged if you want to be) against one enemy which will be almost entirely unable to hit you (thanks to Bladesong + high Dex + Shield + Mage Armor + disadvantage from Prone), and then commence stabbing it at advantage for Sneak Attack damage every round. Or you can go the other direction and taunt one enemy every round from behind Invisibility (which does not break when you taunt someone) and then use your bonus action on Cunning Action or (DMG) Evade. Unfortunately that combo doesn't come online until Swashbuckler 9/Bladesinger 3 but it's still pretty interesting in a nonstandard sort of way.

[bid]

So how does the DPS stack up against say, a fighter, or paladin?
With fighter 5 MC, you beat a pure Dex fighter at almost every level. That extra attack lets you dash every round and you can grab mariner style since your off-hand damage becomes less important.

[djreynolds]

So how does the DPS stack up against say, a fighter, or paladin?

As long as you can sneak attack, you are set. Having an ally within 5 feet of an enemy will allow you to sneak attack. And swashbucklers can sneak attack single opponents. And you can freely disengage from that opponent, but unless you use your cunning action to disengage, other enemy can still get an AoO if you do not disengage.

DPS, at 11th level, on every turn you could get 6d6. Every turn, all day long. And unlike the paladin, you can use a bow as well. A dex based melee fighter not using archery needs quite a bit to keep up with you in terms of DPR, and a strength based fighter and paladin are stuck in melee. You, as a rogue are not. Your twinning short swords is only because it allows you an extra swing in case you miss on your first, otherwise you do not want to hang out in melee.

Now when it comes to multiclassing, the key how much SA damage do you want to do? Do you want to multiclass? You will lose sneak attack damage, and straight up dex based melee fighters do not compete with you in terms of DPR or DPS, granted cantrips will help out.

For me MC with fighter, isn't for the damage from the extra attack if you are primarily a melee combatant, IMHO, it is for that extra attack to ensure that sneak attack hits versus high AC opponents and coupled with, let's say, battle master you have the added insurance of precision.

But the thing is, do not force yourself to be stuck in melee only. Grab a crossbow or bow and get sharpshooter, soften them up from range and then move in for the kill. Precision is your friend, the best maneuver IMO. Grab archery style from fighter or ranger, even if you are melee, and consider crossbow expert so you can have a rapier in one hand and hand crossbow in the other.

[MaxWilson]

At 11th level, a Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter could get 4d6+60 (74) to your d8+5+6d6 (30.5). Sneak Attack is nice, but it doesn't per se make up for lack of GWM/Sharpshooter/multiattack.

And that's just fine. Against an AC 18 target, that fighter would be hitting on a 12 or better, doing 34 points of damage per round on average. The rogue (using Cunning Action to always attack with advantage every round) will have one attack at advantage, hitting on a 9 or better for 28 points of damage per round. That's competitive with the Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert, only your damage cost you zero feats and zero features--it's just built into your class. (If the Sharpshooter can somehow get advantage, his damage will jump to 53 points of damage per round.)

Against a weaker target with lower AC, the Sharpshooter will be stronger. Against an AC 21 NPC mage-knight with AC 21 + Shield for 26, the Rogue will out-damage the Sharpshooter. It all depends.

[djreynolds]

At 11th level, a Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter could get 4d6+60 (74) to your d8+5+6d6 (30.5). Sneak Attack is nice, but it doesn't per se make up for lack of GWM/Sharpshooter/multiattack.

And that's just fine. Against an AC 18 target, that fighter would be hitting on a 12 or better, doing 34 points of damage per round on average. The rogue (using Cunning Action to always attack with advantage every round) will have one attack at advantage, hitting on a 9 or better for 28 points of damage per round. That's competitive with the Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert, only your damage cost you zero feats and zero features--it's just built into your class. (If the Sharpshooter can somehow get advantage, his damage will jump to 53 points of damage per round.)

Against a weaker target with lower AC, the Sharpshooter will be stronger. Against an AC 21 NPC mage-knight with AC 21 + Shield for 26, the Rogue will out-damage the Sharpshooter. It all depends.

I was suggesting just 5 levels of battle master, 8d6 SA for 15 levels of rogue. A high accuracy one shot. Melee or range, can really zero in a drop a wizard. He could do 60 DPS. I just really like precision, its like a free a inspiration 4xs a short rest.

I just love this swashbuckler, you can literally run around with a short sword and handcrossbow.

But I do like that swashbuckler/bladesinger you have up. That is cool and stylish. I see images of Jarlaxle

[MaxWilson]

But I do like that swashbuckler/bladesinger you have up. That is cool and stylish. I see images of Jarlaxle

I think the main reason I won't be playing the Swashbuckler/Bladesinger in any real games any time soon is because of the language limitation on Panache. I tend not to like characters who are heavily invested in situational abilities, especially on a build that doesn't come online until level 9.

[djreynolds]

I think the main reason I won't be playing the Swashbuckler/Bladesinger in any real games any time soon is because of the language limitation on Panache. I tend not to like characters who are heavily invested in situational abilities, especially on a build that doesn't come online until level 9.

Too true, and that 13th level ability, advantage on athletic/acrobatics, how many times are you gonna be unarmed and trying to wrest a ring from Gollum's grasp while over a precarious cliff that falls into lava.

But I wished this archetype had come out before, because I had my thief trying this out.

[Citan]

As long as you can sneak attack, you are set. Having an ally within 5 feet of an enemy will allow you to sneak attack. And swashbucklers can sneak attack single opponents. And you can freely disengage from that opponent, but unless you use your cunning action to disengage, other enemy can still get an AoO if you do not disengage.

DPS, at 11th level, on every turn you could get 6d6. Every turn, all day long. And unlike the paladin, you can use a bow as well. A dex based melee fighter not using archery needs quite a bit to keep up with you in terms of DPR, and a strength based fighter and paladin are stuck in melee. You, as a rogue are not. Your twinning short swords is only because it allows you an extra swing in case you miss on your first, otherwise you do not want to hang out in melee.

This is a bit silly, but this whole discussion and your post in particular made me dream about a multiclass Rogue than specializes in taking out enemies hiding behind a clump of goonies, with style.

Warlock 2, Sorcerer 3, Rogue 15 (non-optimized, just the strictly required for it to work).
Wizard is firmly guarded by 2 enemies standing each side of him. With high CHA you get a fair chance to start first.
Start your turn by quickening Repelling Blast against the goonies. With a bit of chance you got at least one hit on each, repelling them by 10 feet each.
Your main target now fulfills the condition for Rakish Audacity. You just have to run in and deliver the killing blow by piercing his heart with your rapier while he is still trying to realize his protectors are down. \o/

Sure, it is a much harder way to enable Sneak Attack than many others (among which just cast a successful Faerie Fire and sharpshoot him;)), but isn't it much classier? XD

[Finieous]

With fighter 5 MC, you beat a pure Dex fighter at almost every level. That extra attack lets you dash every round and you can grab mariner style since your off-hand damage becomes less important.

Swashbuckler/Bladelock is nice, too, on the same principle, but you replace the fighting style with Darkness + Devil's Sight or Hex + 3 attacks, depending on the situation. And hell, your swashbuckler wants some Cha anyway.

[MaxWilson]

Too true, and that 13th level ability, advantage on athletic/acrobatics, how many times are you gonna be unarmed and trying to wrest a ring from Gollum's grasp while over a precarious cliff that falls into lava.

But I wished this archetype had come out before, because I had my thief trying this out.

I just realized that Tongues is a wizard-3 spell. No concentration, 1 hour. That makes the Tauntsinger viable. (So might a Warlock 1 dip.)

Advantage on Acrobatics helps defend against an otherwise-gaping weakness: grappling/restraint. Worthwhile.

[bid]

At 11th level, a Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter could get 4d6+60 (74) to your d8+5+6d6 (30.5). Sneak Attack is nice, but it doesn't per se make up for lack of GWM/Sharpshooter/multiattack.
2 feats vs no feat. Best fighter level too. Looks like a fair comparison.

That rogue, same 2 feats, would do 2d6+30+6d6 (58).
That fighter at level 10 would do 3d6+45 (55.5).
A fighter 5 / rogue 5 would do 3d6+45+3d6 (66).