Bard Gish Help

[Alistaroc]

I have a player looking to build a gish; she wants to be an all-rounder with spellcasting, but she also wants to use bardic music(she loves singing).
Any suggestions on how to build a character like that?
It seems spellcasting and singing are highest on her list, but she also doesn't want to play a squishy fullcaster.
I'd assume Abjurant Champion as usual, but I need some advice on a 20 level build.

[ComaVision]

Sounds like Swiftblade with a Bard base would work pretty good?

[Troacctid]

Best way to get a Bard that fights effectively with weapons is to dip Warblade or Crusader. That gets you enough maneuvers to be competent in melee, and unlocks Song of the White Raven so you can inspire courage as a swift action. From there you could go into Jade Phoenix Mage, or just continue on as a Bard. Either way, after 10th level, you should be going Sublime Chord into another prestige class.

[Eno Remnant]

Best way to get a Bard that fights effectively with weapons is to dip Warblade or Crusader. That gets you enough maneuvers to be competent in melee, and unlocks Song of the White Raven so you can inspire courage as a swift action. From there you could go into Jade Phoenix Mage, or just continue on as a Bard. Either way, after 10th level, you should be going Sublime Chord into another prestige class.

Basically this.

Though you can circumvent the inherent weakness in a Bard's melee capabilities with the Snowflake Wardance feat (Frostburn) which lets you sacrifice a use of Bardic Music to add your Charisma modifier to your attack bonus, and the Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Comp.) to add your Charisma modifier as fire damage to your melee attacks. The Slippers of Battledancing also work, but are somewhat situational.

The best way to go about it, off the top of my head, would be Warblade 1/Bard 6/Abjurant Champion 2/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10

[gorfnab]

Melee:
Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 4/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 4/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/Jade 3
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 1/ Druid 4/ Green Whisperer 3/Spelldancer 2 /Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Ranged:
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3

Consider beefing up Inspire Courage using some of the ways mentioned here: Breaking Down Inspire Courage Optimization (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=paf3h8tpuigull2t9bfd7m1o96&topic=8936)

The build below is a non full casting non full BAB gish, but it can still hold it's own in combat. It is also versatile outside of combat.
Bard 20
Silver Brow Human
1. Dragonfire Inspiration, Jack of All Trades
3. Melodic Casting
6. Draconic Heritage: Battle
9. Snowflake Wardance
12. Words of Creation
15. Lingering Song
18. Versatile Spellcaster or some other feat
Trade Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Trade Fascinate for Hymn of Healing
Trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart (ECS, feat)
Spells: Inspirational Boost, Creaking Cacophony
Items: Crystal Echoblade, Badge of Valor

[Troacctid]

The best way would honestly be to forget about fighting with weapons and just focus on spells, because Bards are squishy and frail and don't have much damage, so they're not really meant to dive into melee combat unless you invest a lot of resources into it (which will cut into the effectiveness of your other abilities). Unless you really focus the whole build around fighting with weapons, it's unlikely to be effective.

Now, if you like singing, you could instead prestige into Stormsinger. Then you wouldn't need weapons at all, because you'd be tossing out lightning bolts as touch attacks to deal a base damage of 1d20 + Cha + your ranks in Perform (Sing). That's waaaay better than 1d8 + Str against normal AC.

[Alistaroc]

The best way would honestly be to forget about fighting with weapons and just focus on spells, because Bards are squishy and frail and don't have much damage, so they're not really meant to dive into melee combat unless you invest a lot of resources into it (which will cut into the effectiveness of your other abilities). Unless you really focus the whole build around fighting with weapons, it's unlikely to be effective.

Now, if you like singing, you could instead prestige into Stormsinger. Then you wouldn't need weapons at all, because you'd be tossing out lightning bolts as touch attacks to deal a base damage of 1d20 + Cha + your ranks in Perform (Sing). That's waaaay better than 1d8 + Str against normal AC.
Sure, the best way would be to say, screw the bard, build Pun-Pun, and be done with it.
Stormsinger has its 1d20+Cha+19(starting this character at level 16), but once she's out of bardic music, she has nothing. Which is why she wants some sort of survivor gish. Now, I could see Stormsinger 3 being a good dip, but she's looking for a more well-rounded character than a fullcaster bard.

[AvatarVecna]

Bard/Warblade is a common staple around here, whether you go JPM or not afterward. If you want a bit more versatility, dip Swordsage and take the Ascetic Mage feat; you won't be able to use the benefit that's specific to monk/sorcerers, but you still get to add your Cha to AC, which is useful.

As an alternative to a Bardblade, it's worth mentioning that Fochlucan Lyrist gets full BAB IIRC, so if you can find a way to enter that without killing your offensive capabilities, you'll have lots of spell to work with (mostly buffs), good music progression, and some combat ability.

[Troacctid]

Sure, the best way would be to say, screw the bard, build Pun-Pun, and be done with it.


I'm talking about the best way to be an all-rounder with spellcasting and bardic music, which is what you said you wanted, yes? Becoming competent in weapon-based combat as a Bard requires high levels of feat, level, skill, and/or ability score investment. It pulls away a lot of your build resources, so it's not something you usually see on a generalist—if you have it at all, it's probably a primary focus of the build, not a backup option. Typical all-rounders are more likely to dedicate a couple spells to that purpose instead, since it's much less resource-intensive. A Sublime Chord might take Thunderlance as a 4th level spell, for example.

That said, if you're starting all the way at level 16, you actually have a lot more build resources than I was expecting, since you're well into Sublime Chord by this point.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can pick up Bardic Music in surprisingly weird ways, if you want to look at it another way. There are actually two Paladin options (Harmonious Knight and From Smite to Song), there are prestige classes like Heartfire Fanner and Warrior Skald... Check out the A-game Paladin, perhaps.

[Hiro Quester]

To be less squishy, learn Sirine's Grace spell (CHA as deflection bonus to AC). that plus Snowflake Wardance (CHA to attack), plus Gauntlets of Heartfelt blows (CHA to damage) can get you a better Ac than the patty fighter, and pretty good to-hit and damage in melee.

Keep UMD maxed out. Get a wand of Heroics for temporary use of whatever fighter feats you wish (TWF tree works well with SFWD). A wand of lesser restoration oto cure the exhaustion after SFWD.

A custom Runestaff can get some of the useful Sor/Wiz spells on your list for extend/persist purposes (e.g. Shield, Dragonskin, Bladeweave)

Take the melodic casting feat to be able to cast while performing bardic music, and cast in combat making a perform check instead of a concentration check.

Almost any build with Sublime chord will be a great bard-based gish. e.g.something like Bard 7/Swiftblade3/Sublime Chord2/Swiftblade 7/Abjurant Champion1. Gets close to the Gish standard of 16 BAB, 9th level spells (I think).

Edit:
Hit points are another potential weakness, but one that is relatively easy to strengthen.

Going to bard 9 for inspire greatness can also bring in good melee buffs, including temporary hit points. Get the Horn of Resilience to play Inspire Greatness and in addition to the regular temporary hit points it bestows, the horn lets you give one recipient an additional 50 bonus hit points. If you melee, this recipient should be you.

The horn is part of the magic item et in MIC that also includes the Badge of Valor (which every bard should have). Having two pieces of the set gives a good ability. The third item (a helm) isn't a waste of resources either, and enables you to grant allies bonus move actions, so your party damage dealer can pounce.