Initiating more than 1 strike maneuver

[Gamereaper]

Is it possible to initiate more than 1 strike maneuver in a round? I can't find any rules about it.

[ComaVision]

Yeah, as long as you have the actions for it. For example, you could use a swift action boost and a standard action strike.

[Troacctid]

Most strikes require a standard action, so using two in one round would require something like a Belt of Battle to gain an additional standard action. If you have such a thing, then yeah, sure, you could do it.

[Gamereaper]

Ah ok, I wasn't sure. I didn't know if you could use multiple ones on a full round action or not.

Are there other ways to gain more standard actions?

I'm a crusader eventually going into Eternal Blade (racial restrictions are gone).

[ComaVision]

Are there other ways to gain more standard actions?


8 levels of Factotum, the spell Celerity, the aforementioned Belt of Battle.. those are all the ones I know off the top of my head.

[Troacctid]

There's also the Synchronicity power, 9 levels of Swiftblade, White Raven Tactics (used on you by someone else), Schism (mental actions only, but you can use it to manifest Synchronicity), and some monsters like the Choker can do it as a racial ability.

[Necroticplague]

Sharn have 3 standard actions per round (though you explicitely can't polymorph into them, and they're ECL 8 or 9 [I forget which]). The Multitasking feat can give anyone with at least four arms extra standard actions, though the prereqs are a bit of a pain.

[Andezzar]

White Raven Tactics (used on you by someone else)It also works if you use it yourself. Allies (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=) include yourself, unless specified otherwise.

[Murmaider]

It also works if you use it yourself. Allies (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=) include yourself, unless specified otherwise.

Player: I can use White Raven Tactics on myself.

DM: No, you can't. Look, it says it right here.

Player: Gimme, that! Where? I can't see.

DM: It's in fine print, you have to look closer

Player: I still don't...

DM:*slams book in Players face*

[Necroticplague]

Player: I can use White Raven Tactics on myself.

DM: No, you can't. Look, it says it right here.

Player: Gimme, that! Where? I can't see.

DM: It's in fine print, you have to look closer

Player: I still don't...

DM:*slams book in Players face*

Oh yes. Woe betide to any mundane having the intestinal fortitude to do try and match our glorious spellcaster in ability to get extra actions. While having to waste some actions recovering after they get the extra.

Seriously. For a swordsage, the full-round action to restore it would undo the benefit, a warblade basically translates it into "get an extra full-round attack" (since they need to use up the full+swift the gain to make a swift action and a full-attack to recover), and crusaders can't control their recovery, so this will only occur once every (Maneuvers readied-maneuvers granted) anyway. I don't see why it's such a big deal.

[Waazraath]

Oh yes. Woe betide to any mundane having the intestinal fortitude to do try and match our glorious spellcaster in ability to get extra actions. While having to waste some actions recovering after they get the extra.

Seriously. For a swordsage, the full-round action to restore it would undo the benefit, a warblade basically translates it into "get an extra full-round attack" (since they need to use up the full+swift the gain to make a swift action and a full-attack to recover), and crusaders can't control their recovery, so this will only occur once every (Maneuvers readied-maneuvers granted) anyway. I don't see why it's such a big deal.

I'm pretty sure was clarified in a faq or by the sage that it is ally only. Don't have a link though. Further, swordsages don't have white raven maneuvers, unless they spend a feat on it. If they get it, it's a free turn, which obviously you spend on beating stuff up and not retrieving WRT. Crusaders should aim to refresh their maneuvers every few rounds, by combining standard and swift / immediate actions. For a warblade, it's effectively: full attack, swift action, go again, full attack, swift action recover; repeat on next turn.

Even wizards and psion's don't have this kind of action economy wreckage at level 5. Further, imo it's hardly accurate to define the ToB classes as 'mundane'.

[heavyfuel]

Oh yes. Woe betide to any mundane having the intestinal fortitude to do try and match our glorious spellcaster in ability to get extra actions. While having to waste some actions recovering after they get the extra.

To be fair though, a Crusader that only readied WRT (or an Idiot Crusader) could get infinite actions per round. Not the most balanced thing. Seems a sensible houserule.

[Necroticplague]

I'm pretty sure was clarified in a faq or by the sage that it is ally only. Don't have a link though.
Of course it only effects allies. It's just that you happen to be your own ally, by the definition of ally (all A are B, all B are C, all A are C. Replace A with self, B with allies, C is able to be effected by WRT


Further, swordsages don't have white raven maneuvers, unless they spend a feat on it. If they get it, it's a free turn, which obviously you spend on beating stuff up and not retrieving WRT.
Oh no, an extra full-attack 1/encounter! The incredible brokeness

If they never recover the maneuver during the battle, it's an appropriate cost. If they do, it's a net 0 action gain.


Crusaders should aim to refresh their maneuvers every few rounds, by combining standard and swift / immediate actions.
There's nothing you can do to accelerate how fast your maneuvers refresh. You get one more granted per round, refresh when they're all granted. Plus, you're not even guaranteed that any of your new maneuvers granted will be WRT. Unreliable at best, and unlikely to come up more than once an encounter. Again, 1/enc full attack. Not overpowering



For a warblade, it's effectively: full attack, swift action, go again, full attack, swift action recover; repeat on next turn.
Yes, they are the one who this works the best for, due to having the best recover method. So if they're willing to trade in all ability to use swift-action boosts, immediate action counters, or ever change stances, and are always under conditions where they can full attack, and are never hampered by Slow or similar effects, the can get an extra full attack every turn. Considering all those ifs, seems fair.



Even wizards and psion's don't have this kind of action economy wreckage at level 5. Further, imo it's hardly accurate to define the ToB classes as 'mundane'.You're right. Psions have access to pretty similar action economy wreckage at level 1, thanks to the vagueness of syncronicity.
By 'mundane' I meant that is wasn't a spellcaster or manifester.


To be fair though, a Crusader that only readied WRT (or an Idiot Crusader) could get infinite actions per round. Not the most balanced thing. Seems a sensible houserule.
Where does the rules say you can ready only one maneuver? Even at level 1 they have 5 they need to ready.

[Willie the Duck]

Oh yes. Woe betide to any mundane having the intestinal fortitude to do try and match our glorious spellcaster in ability to get extra actions. While having to waste some actions recovering after they get the extra.


Oh no, an extra full-attack 1/encounter! The incredible brokeness

Y'know, if the real and oft acknowledged power discrepancy between Tier 1s and everyone else justifies any and all questionable rules interpretations for other classes and builds, we may as well agree to throw the rulebooks out the window.

[Darrin]

To be fair though, a Crusader that only readied WRT (or an Idiot Crusader) could get infinite actions per round. Not the most balanced thing. Seems a sensible houserule.

It's not actually infinite turns per round. PHB page 133, under "How Combat Works":

"5. When everyone has had a turn, the combatant with the highest initiative acts again, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends."

Essentially, the initiative count resets just after the last person who hasn't acted that round takes his/her turn.

This means the number of turns an Idiot Crusader can use WRT is determined by subtracting the Crusader's iniative count from the lowest initiative count of whoever is acting last that round. So if the Idiot Crusader starts at count 20, and the last creature to act is on count 5, he can use WRT 15 times before the round resets. (However, the Crusader should be careful to delay or ready an action on his last turn, so that he isn't stuck with an exceedingly low initiative count on the subsequent round.)

This also means that if by chance everybody in the encounter has roughly the same initiative count, you may not get as many WRT turns (although you could ask an ally to delay and get more turns if you like).

[Andezzar]

Oh no, an extra full-attack 1/encounter! The incredible brokenessExactly. Everyone (including tier 1 spellcasters) can get that for 48k gp (four belts of battle). And then they aren't even limited to a Full Attack, they can get any Full Round Action. Plus they get +2 to initiative.


Y'know, if the real and oft acknowledged power discrepancy between Tier 1s and everyone else justifies any and all questionable rules interpretations for other classes and builds, we may as well agree to throw the rulebooks out the window.That is not a questionable interpretation of the rules. I quoted the explicit rule from the online glossary in post 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20383208&postcount=8). If you do not believe that source take a look at p. 304 of the PHB.
You may not like it, but that's what the rules say.

[Willie the Duck]

That is not a questionable interpretation of the rules. I quoted the explicit rule from the online glossary in post 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20383208&postcount=8). If you do not believe that source take a look at p. 304 of the PHB.
You may not like it, but that's what the rules say.

I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to Necrotic Plague's commentary. His commentary to this imaginary straw person who can't handle anyone else stepping on full spellcaster's toes. The comments I was concerned with really didn't care about whether the specific rules were legal or not. I do agree that you have made a correct interpretation of the rulebooks.

And please, don't tell me what I do and do not like.

[Waazraath]

Of course it only effects allies. It's just that you happen to be your own ally, by the definition of ally (all A are B, all B are C, all A are C. Replace A with self, B with allies, C is able to be effected by WRT

And there was me, thinking it was pretty obvious I was talking about an ally not being yourself. Silly me. To be very clear, then: "I'm pretty sure was clarified in a faq or by the sage that it is ally only and that ally not being yourself"

WRT gives an extra turn. That's bloody good. In a turn based game, getting an extra turn is so good I'm a bit surpised somebody seems to argue it's "normal" and not broken at all. As long as I play 3.0 (from the beginning), stuff that breaks the action economy has been considered very good, and often broken, on fora and in RL. The celerity chain is always considered a great asset for wiz/sor, if not downright too much. In all guides WRT is mentioned as one of the best maneuvers in the entire book. That's also my own experience in game. Psionics is (in)famous for breaking the action economy and a lot of it is often banned. Though I've never seen anybody argue that Synchrnicity gives an extra turn, so I call nonsense on this: "Psions have access to pretty similar action economy wreckage at level 1, thanks to the vagueness of syncronicity." Of course, with linked power, it's a disaster, but that comes online at earliest at third level, and eats up quite a lot of the available power points.

Note:

Not being to use WRT on yourself doesn't even make it worse, since now you just give an extra turn to a buddy, but hey, it's just less silly. There was a ruling from Wizards that it couln't be used on self. Here: http://dnd.wizards.com/go/ask/20070731a And yes, that's a dead link, since all 3.5 stuff was taken off line. Maybe the way back machine or something can get it up, but that's too much trouble for me. Anyone can choose not to believe this of course, and regardless anybody can rule as they please.


Y'know, if the real and oft acknowledged power discrepancy between Tier 1s and everyone else justifies any and all questionable rules interpretations for other classes and builds, we may as well agree to throw the rulebooks out the window.

+1


Exactly. Everyone (including tier 1 spellcasters) can get that for 48k gp (four belts of battle). And then they aren't even limited to a Full Attack, they can get any Full Round Action. Plus they get +2 to initiative.

Are you serious? When WRT gets online, a character can't afford even 1 belt of battle. And it can get 4 at earliest at lvl 11, at the expense of almost all other equipment. Only very late level, this is an option. And WRT doesn't give a full attack, it gives an extra turn.


To stay a bit more on topic, for the OP: you can go for the Dvati race, that gives you 2 maneuvers every turn. But at a price. The atavist class also can give you extra actions. But since you already seem to be playing and have your build made up, belt of battle seems your best bet.

[Andezzar]

And there was me, thinking it was pretty obvious I was talking about an ally not being yourself. Silly me. To be very clear, then: "I'm pretty sure was clarified in a faq or by the sage that it is ally only and that ally not being yourself"An FAQ and much less the sage can change rules. The rules are clear. Allies normally include yourself.


WRT gives an extra turn. That's bloody good. In a turn based game, getting an extra turn is so good I'm a bit surpised somebody seems to argue it's "normal" and not broken at all. As long as I play 3.0 (from the beginning), stuff that breaks the action economy has been considered very good, and often broken, on fora and in RL. The celerity chain is always considered a great asset for wiz/sor, if not downright too much. In all guides WRT is mentioned as one of the best maneuvers in the entire book. That's also my own experience in game. Psionics is (in)famous for breaking the action economy and a lot of it is often banned. Though I've never seen anybody argue that Synchrnicity gives an extra turn, so I call nonsense on this: "Psions have access to pretty similar action economy wreckage at level 1, thanks to the vagueness of syncronicity." Of course, with linked power, it's a disaster, but that comes online at earliest at third level, and eats up quite a lot of the available power points.Getting an extra turn is nice, but not any more broken than trivializing the whole encounter. Wizards get to do that from level 1.



Are you serious? When WRT gets online, a character can't afford even 1 belt of battle. And it can get 4 at earliest at lvl 11, at the expense of almost all other equipment. Only very late level, this is an option. And WRT doesn't give a full attack, it gives an extra turn. So what? A mundane gets something that is better than what an item does. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find cheaper ways to get extra actions through items or other means that are available at similarly low levels.

[Waazraath]

An FAQ and much less the sage can change rules. The rules are clear. Allies normally include yourself.

Getting an extra turn is nice, but not any more broken than trivializing the whole encounter. Wizards get to do that from level 1.


So what? A mundane gets something that is better than what an item does. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find cheaper ways to get extra actions through items or other means that are available at similarly low levels.

First, let me quote a guide named Caelic who wrote ten (very sensible) 'commandments of practical optimization:

"5. Intent matters.
I know, I know..."Blasphemy! No man may know the intent of the Most Holy Designers!" Except that, in some cases, we can. In some cases, the intent is glaringly, painfully obvious. In other cases, the intent has been clarified by various WotC sources, such as CustServ. It makes sense to take these sources at their word, people. They work with the folks who design the game, they have access to them. If a conflict comes up, then it can be resolved, but I can't help but notice that for all the talk about how CustServ never gives the same answer twice, they've been remarkably consistent of late. It's one thing to say "This rule is vaguely worded, and we don't know the intent." "

Do with it as you will. For me, I'm very happy Wizards ended the RAW-fixation of earlier editions in Fifth.

Second, oh yeah, that magical wizard that trivilizes encounters from first levels. Funny, I never met it. I have a suspiction that it either includes pun pun like nonsense (but it's RAW!!1!), or a DM that always has its orcs conviniently marching together, so they can be target by sleep or color spray all at the same time, and of course they loose initiative and fail their saving throws. But hee, enlighten me, tell me about this wizard!

Third, well, your point is? "There might be some items that I'm not sure exist that do the same as this ability, so it's not that impressive?" 1) if there are, feel free to show 'em, and 2) even if there would, that doesn't make the ability less good, does it?