Dexterity and Intelligence based Antipaladin.

[Xuldarinar]

I have a DM that would allow an Int-based antipaladin (as opposed to the traditional Charisma based.) This was spawned from a hypothetical discussion, rather than necessarily being something brought to the table.

So, how would one bring flavor to, as well as optimize an antipaladin who utilizes Dexterity rather than their Strength, and use Intelligence instead of Charisma for their class features?

[Grod_The_Giant]

A one-level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler sounds like a good start, netting you 2/3 of the Dex to damage feat, some swordplay techniques and Int+Cha Panache points. You might also throw in a level of Investigator for Inspiration and class skills. (A second level and the Empiricist archetype gets you Int as your key ability score for a whole bunch more skills, too).

Bruising Intellect and Student of Philosophy let you keep up some of the traditional scariness/party-facing.

If you can import from 3.5, Knowledge Devotion is THE classic smarts-in-combat option

[Xuldarinar]

A one-level dip in Inspired Blade Swashbuckler sounds like a good start, netting you 2/3 of the Dex to damage feat, some swordplay techniques and Int+Cha Panache points. You might also throw in a level of Investigator for Inspiration and class skills. (A second level and the Empiricist archetype gets you Int as your key ability score for a whole bunch more skills, too).

Bruising Intellect and Student of Philosophy let you keep up some of the traditional scariness/party-facing.

If you can import from 3.5, Knowledge Devotion is THE classic smarts-in-combat option

Thats some fairly sound advice. Is there more we can do, without losing class levels?

What bout archetypes? Do any of them better lend themselves to the concept than others?

[Geddy2112]

Most sword and board antipaladins rock a decently high dex so they can TWF with their sword and shield. Just because you are dex based does not mean that you can't use strength for damage, or that you have to be a damage machine. You get damage by volume of attacks, and use your dex+armor+shield+stuff to get a really high AC. Not to tank for the party, but to not be hit at all. You can also TWF with two weapons, but the spiked shield is usually preferred.

If you have decent dex, and lots of skill points from being int based, three ranks in acrobatics gives you poor man's combat expertise to really juice that AC. You have the INT to qualify, so you can take combat expertise to really boost your AC. You have good fort saves and hit dice, so you can go low on con. You won't need cha, so you can dump it along with wis.

If you were just dex and int, dumping the rest, I would focus on using touch of corruption and channeling negative energy. Get weapon finesse and go to town with sick nasty touch attacks, bashing with your shield as a second. Fighting defensive combat expertise really meshes well here, as most enemies have garbage touch AC. Channel smite through a finesse weapon at later levels. Knight of the sepulchur allows you to be treated as undead for neg/pos energy purposes at 5th level, allowing you to heal yourself with neg energy(you probably won't be going damphir if you are int based). You could also go for a ranged anti-paladin, or at least keep a bow as a ranged option. Elf is a solid race, but also look into wayangs- dex/int boost, wis minus, and the ability to be counted as undead once a day for neg energy healing.

I know you want to avoid dipping, but three levels in rogue gets you dex to damage with a finesse weapon of your choice. It would encourage a more aggressive dual shortsword build. It also gets you into assassin prestige class, if you are into that.

For flavor, Norgorber and Calistria are both good deities for a dex/int paladin. Norgorber is the god of assassins, spies, poison, secrets, etc, with short sword as a favored weapon. Calistria is the goddess of lust and trickery, with whips as a favored weapon. Both support a much more subtle undermining of the system and world instead of the cartoon CE "Hulk smash evil for the lulz". "A dagger in the dark is better than a thousand swords at dawn" should be your general MO, but this is not just work-you are an assassin with belief, a belief that pinpoint murder can spread discord, taking out key pegs that cause the whole structure to collapse kind of thing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What bout archetypes? Do any of them better lend themselves to the concept than others?
The Antipaladin looks like it only has one, and it looks pretty spectacularly crap.

I mean, overall I don't think it would be that different. You'd be an inferior face, but a superior sneak. Overall I'd say Int is better than Cha, and Dex is better than Str once you pay the feat tax. (You could also be an archer, one supposes-- Paladins ain't bad at that in PF, thanks to the bonus damage)

[Xuldarinar]

The Antipaladin looks like it only has one, and it looks pretty spectacularly crap.

I mean, overall I don't think it would be that different. You'd be an inferior face, but a superior sneak. Overall I'd say Int is better than Cha, and Dex is better than Str once you pay the feat tax. (You could also be an archer, one supposes-- Paladins ain't bad at that in PF, thanks to the bonus damage)

One of my few complaints over the PFSRD, they aren't so good with those tables. Many haven't been updated in a while, or they are odd with what they will put there.


We have Knight of the Sepulcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/knight-of-the-sepulcher), which is listed on the table there, but we also have;

Dread Vanguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/dread-vanguard-antipaladin-archetype)
Fearmonger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/fearmonger-antipaladin-archetype)
Insinuator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/insinuator-antipaladin-archetype)
Rampager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/rampager-antipaladin-archetype)
Seal-Breaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/seal-breaker-antipaladin-archetype)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm... at a quick glance, none of them look like they'd be affected by the change one way or another. Maybe Seal-Breaker for a mounted archer?

[Thealtruistorc]

You want an Int-based Antipaladin? Oh my...

Essentially, the premise behind such a character is that you know enough about the world to recognize how futile it is to resist oblivion, and so harness the might bestowed upon you by demons to force the sublime truth upon all those who would resist. You are Faust times ten, conspiring with the underbelly of the multiverse to attain and enrich the dark knowledge that would shake reality to its very core. Other men (and many fiends) may think that charisma is what allows a man to guide the world, but you have transcended such a pathetic notion. There is only reason, reason is what protects you, reason is what guides your sword, and reason is what dictates that everything must collapse.

The dark secrets that lie just beyond the collective reach of humanity are too much for us to comprehend, and the only salvation of the race from an eternity of madness is ending them all right here and right now. Even your demonic patrons fail to grasp the true implications of their fragile existence, and how many ways all of their works could be swept away in an instant. You are smart enough to pinpoint the weaknesses in any plan and undermine the validity of any argument, and it is your duty to bring about the end of any irrational hope that the mortals hold for prosperity. There can be no victory for mankind, not in a world as cruel as this one. You have been blessed (or cursed) with this horrific perspective, and you realize that you must educate all others. Most may not understand, many will refuse to understand, but that will just push you further. If they cannot be taught with ink, then they will be taught with blood!



Also, this guy had better have a German accent and one heckuva mustache. Nietzsche is somebody you should absolutely be citing for influence.

[Xuldarinar]

You want an Int-based Antipaladin? Oh my...

Essentially, the premise behind such a character is that you know enough about the world to recognize how futile it is to resist oblivion, and so harness the might bestowed upon you by demons to force the sublime truth upon all those who would resist. You are Faust times ten, conspiring with the underbelly of the multiverse to attain and enrich the dark knowledge that would shake reality to its very core. Other men (and many fiends) may think that charisma is what allows a man to guide the world, but you have transcended such a pathetic notion. There is only reason, reason is what protects you, reason is what guides your sword, and reason is what dictates that everything must collapse.

The dark secrets that lie just beyond the collective reach of humanity are too much for us to comprehend, and the only salvation of the race from an eternity of madness is ending them all right here and right now. Even your demonic patrons fail to grasp the true implications of their fragile existence, and how many ways all of their works could be swept away in an instant. You are smart enough to pinpoint the weaknesses in any plan and undermine the validity of any argument, and it is your duty to bring about the end of any irrational hope that the mortals hold for prosperity. There can be no victory for mankind, not in a world as cruel as this one. You have been blessed (or cursed) with this horrific perspective, and you realize that you must educate all others. Most may not understand, many will refuse to understand, but that will just push you further. If they cannot be taught with ink, then they will be taught with blood!



Also, this guy had better have a German accent and one heckuva mustache. Nietzsche is somebody you should absolutely be citing for influence.

In the discussion we actually viewed such a character, paladin or antipaladin, as a sort of philosopher knight. Thats a wonderful elaboration and approach, so I have to thank you on that. I suppose the particulars might vary from archetype to archetype.


And after that, I keep thinking of Nietzsche wearing the armor worn by the blackguard from Rusty&Co.

[Florian]

I have a DM that would allow an Int-based antipaladin (as opposed to the traditional Charisma based.) This was spawned from a hypothetical discussion, rather than necessarily being something brought to the table.

So, how would one bring flavor to, as well as optimize an antipaladin who utilizes Dexterity rather than their Strength, and use Intelligence instead of Charisma for their class features?

INT-based actually makes you worse at being an Anti-Paladin.
Going RAW, you want to have two things here that the CHA-based Anti-Paladin provides:
- Beat a Diplomacy check with ease
- Make Intimidate checks with ease
(- use UMD without a hassle)

Leaving that aside, we might up end with a very modern "Thinking man´s evil" or "SWAT team evil", in the vain of "I thought it over, considered the consequences and it is only a logical choice to do it this way", combined with "I will strike first to win and this needs a ranged weapon. I will not suffer an attack on myself as this puts me into needless danger".

You´ll get the best fluff with an Elven Anti-Paladin of Calistra (with Wasp Familiar feat) and a functional archery feat chain, followed by Norgober.

[Grod_The_Giant]

INT-based actually makes you worse at being an Anti-Paladin.
Going RAW, you want to have two things here that the CHA-based Anti-Paladin provides:
- Beat a Diplomacy check with ease
- Make Intimidate checks with ease
(- use UMD without a hassle)
Traits make it really easy to switch those to Int. I'd certainly take one for Intimidate, which seems to be a big one for Anti-Paladins.

[Florian]

Traits make it really easy to switch those to Int. I'd certainly take one for Intimidate, which seems to be a big one for Anti-Paladins.

Traits are GM and campaign-dependent. Without knowing both, I would not recommend them.

[Xuldarinar]

Knowing every possible option though is good, even if things aren't allowed, so that others looking here might get some ideas that otherwise may not apply. 3rd party content, for instance. Not every DM accepts it at all, some are very particular in what they will accept, but knowing such options are out there are good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In that vein, there's also the Orator feat (use the Int-based Linguistics in place of most other important social skills), though I guess you'd need to get Linguistics on your class list somehow.

[Xuldarinar]

In that vein, there's also the Orator feat (use the Int-based Linguistics in place of most other important social skills), though I guess you'd need to get Linguistics on your class list somehow.

Thankfully there are ways, including traits.




While I'm thinking of it, might as well examine the archetypes (in relation to this concept):


We have ditched the antipaladin's casting and aura of sin in exchange for two substantial (text wise) abilities. The first expends touch of corruption uses (which he has more of) to produce an aura that aids his allows and lets him use his touch at ranged, and another ability that also expends uses to place certain effects. Tactically, its useful. But we don't get anything special here in terms of a Dexterity and Intelligence oriented character.


The token "Fear me" antipaladin. We ditch the touch and take specific cruelties appropriate to the theme. Nothing special here, but if we decide to utilize intimidate at all with this, something to get Int to Intimidate (which such a feat exists) is invaluable.



A shift to the code, an expansion of alignments, and alterations across the board. While in ways this archetype may be a step down, this holds a few benefits to us; Bonus combat feats (something useful to help support dex oriented combat), an Int based class skill helps utilize the primary class feature of the archetype, and an intelligent individual is more likely to consider how to exploit a code of conduct. Selfishness can be semantic, and thinking about the consequences of one's actions when handling different outsiders strikes me more in the realm of Intelligent than the Charismatic, but that may just be me.


Flavorful? Yes. Powerful? Not generally. But theres a major detriment here that kills it, if we get far enough. If one takes an Intelligence-based antipaladin to 20th level with this archetype, they will have substantially less health than a more standard.. Charisma-based one. A philosopher lich knight may work thematically, but it has downsides.


Here, intelligence dependency is strictly a point of approach, and holds nothing over anything else. More than normally anyways.

Again, we are in the realm that, intelligence makes relatively little difference mechanically, but thematically it can have an effect. An intelligent character might think of more tactical uses for Aura of Rebirth than a charismatic. Also, they may be better suited to pursuing the release of what they wish to release. Social skills, however, would also prove useful.. necessitating feats/traits.

Its third party, and holds its own flavor, but falls in the same bin as Seal-Breaker.

Third party, holds its own flavor, but very much like the Dread Vanguard in this.

[Florian]

Depending a bit if you want to play your Anti-Paladin from the ground up, I´d go with an Elf and the Elven Combat Style feat chain, followed by the Amateur Investigator feat chain. That´ll put your high INT to good use. It will be annoying until all feats kick in, but when they do, it rocks.

I´m not too keen on a "Philosopher Knight" being connected to the divine, that has a wrong feeling to it. At that point, I´d actually talk to your gm about replacing Anti-Paladin spell casting with Bloodrager spell casting, arcane and armored, that should be a better fit.
It might also be a small "hot fix" to give the character a scaling bonus to CHA-based skills, like +1/2 levels (minimum +1), to make it less CHA-dependent.

[Thealtruistorc]

I´m not too keen on a "Philosopher Knight" being connected to the divine, that has a wrong feeling to it. At that point, I´d actually talk to your gm about replacing Anti-Paladin spell casting with Bloodrager spell casting, arcane and armored, that should be a better fit.
It might also be a small "hot fix" to give the character a scaling bonus to CHA-based skills, like +1/2 levels (minimum +1), to make it less CHA-dependent.

I never said anything about this character being a "philosopher-knight." The idea doesn't appeal to me, nor does it really fit with what I envisioned for the character. A philosopher-knight would study the world and try to create a reality around his code and his chivalry. You are the crushing hand of the true reality, the one that spits in the face of these idealists and wipes their now-useless grey matter off your boot.

Logic and Sensibility are cruel, some might say the cruelest things in existence, because when done right they leave no room for error. There is only one solution, one final solution that will govern the universe to its dying day, and no hero can do anything about it. You've grown intelligent enough the calculate this end, and you no longer have the luxury of turning from it or denying it. You, recognizing the meaninglessness or morals, order, and all else that the hopeless masses attempt to construe, have decided to become the agent of their end, carrying out the only logical choice in a world that tries so desperately to hide from it.

For deities, I strongly recommend Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlethotep, or the Azathoth itself, because these are the only beings that share a kindred in your dark knowledge. There is nothing that can be done. You know it, they know it, and it is your job to make sure that everyone else knows it.

Set fire to libraries, gut any flawed intellectual that would deny you, run civilization into the ground and force all those around you to embrace the madness that is oblivion. Unveil the absolute truth to all those who have up until now lived in peace. The light is not the natural state, that is total and all-consuming darkness. Make sure that by the time you leave this world, EVERYONE knows this as you do now.