Help me settle an argument about Japan

[Jon_Dahl]

Since there a so many Japan fans here, I'm sure that this is the right place to ask. Which of the options is right?

1. In order to have a Japanese citizenship, a person has to have a Japanese name. This name will be their only legally recognised name but a person can choose to use their former name in all social interactions, like Robert who is always known as Bob.
2. No name change is required to have a Japanese citizenship. John Smith will still be John Smith.
3. Both of the previous options are wrong. Please explain in your comment.

[Killer Angel]

A friend of mine got a brother that lives in Japan and has the citizenship. I'll ask and report the answer. :smallwink:

[factotum]

I'm no expert on this, but the Wikipedia article on Japanese nationality suggests it's a bit from column (1) and a bit from column (2)--a person must pick a Japanese name, unless they're from another culture using Chinese or similar characters, in which case they can retain their previous one. The example given is of Masayoshi Son, who naturalised Japanese using his Korean family name.

One thing I learned while looking that up is that you can only become a Japanese citizen if you have Japanese parents, pretty much--while there are provisions for people of non-Japanese descent to be given citizenship if they perform some great deed for the Japanese state, in practice these have never been used. In addition, you must renounce citizenship in any other country to become eligible for Japanese citizenship.

[Brother Oni]

Since there a so many Japan fans here, I'm sure that this is the right place to ask. Which of the options is right?

1. In order to have a Japanese citizenship, a person has to have a Japanese name. This name will be their only legally recognised name but a person can choose to use their former name in all social interactions, like Robert who is always known as Bob.
2. No name change is required to have a Japanese citizenship. John Smith will still be John Smith.
3. Both of the previous options are wrong. Please explain in your comment.

Depending on how exactly you become a Japanese citizen, all of the above, although a little bit of 1 and 2 is the typical route.

As part of a visa application for living in Japan (which is a prerequisite for becoming a citizen via naturalisation), you will be required to pick a Japanese legal name, which can be done via selection from a list of pre-approved kanji or simple romanisation using hiragana/katakana, so your John Smith's legal name could be direct transliteration via katakana into スミス ジョン (Sumisu Jon using Japanese name order).

The kanji list has been expanded to permit names of non-Japanese origin, so people of Chinese origin can use their original characters.

Usually people wishing to become Japanese citizens try for better integration (katakana is usually reserved for loanwords outside Japanese), so they pick a more natural sounding name. In informal social situations, a person can use whatever name they desire, whether that's their original name or a nickname.


One thing I learned while looking that up is that you can only become a Japanese citizen if you have Japanese parents, pretty much--while there are provisions for people of non-Japanese descent to be given citizenship if they perform some great deed for the Japanese state, in practice these have never been used. In addition, you must renounce citizenship in any other country to become eligible for Japanese citizenship.

Naturalisation, while difficult, isn't impossible (link (http://www.tokyoimmigration.jp/eng/kika.html)).

There are also odd situations when you can have dual nationalities which include Japanese citizenship (for example your parents had different nationalities), but they're clamping down on such loopholes (dual citizenship children have to choose whether they want sole Japanese citizenship at 21 else they lose it).

[FinnLassie]

My sis is soon to be able to apply for citizenship, though still not sure if she should go through with it. Her last name can be turned into katakana pretty much straight on, but she has chosen a Japanese name for her first name and if possible, insert her birth name as a second one - it's also a name that can be directly be written in katakana... thank goodness for a rather similar syllable system. :smalltongue:

But yeah. In papers her name would be for example Sakura Hanna Yokinen (orig. Jokinen but for the sake of pronunciation has to be changed...), but she'd use her Finnish name in informal situations.

I think a good example of a Finnish named turned Japanese is Martti Turunen -> Marutei Tsurunen. Similar to his Finnish name and written in katakana to show his roots, but follows the Japanese "ethos".

[Jon_Dahl]

I think a good example of a Finnish named turned Japanese is Martti Turunen -> Marutei Tsurunen. Similar to his Finnish name and written in katakana to show his roots, but follows the Japanese "ethos".

Yeah, I spoke to my friend about Marutei Tsurunen today but he thought that this rule will not apply to him, because he knows a guy who kept his American name and has the Japanese citizenship. In my opinion my friend is dead wrong. If he is to apply for the citizenship, he will need a name like Sakura Hanna Yokinen. And this American pal of his only uses his former name like a nickname or something, it's not his real name now.


so your John Smith's legal name could be direct transliteration via katakana into スミス ジョン (Sumisu Jon using Japanese name order).

And if this guy comes back to the States (or Europe or whatever) and has to write his name - his present name - on an official document, it will be "Sumisu Jon", right? I guess that was my actual question that I was trying to ask, even though I failed :D

[Brother Oni]

My sis is soon to be able to apply for citizenship, though still not sure if she should go through with it. Her last name can be turned into katakana pretty much straight on, but she has chosen a Japanese name for her first name and if possible, insert her birth name as a second one - it's also a name that can be directly be written in katakana... thank goodness for a rather similar syllable system. :smalltongue:

I was quite surprised how similar Finnish syllabary was to Japanese, convergent evolution at work, I suppose. The only Finnish word I know is 'perkele (http://satwcomic.com/a-bad-day)' though. :smalltongue:


Yeah, I spoke to my friend about Marutei Tsurunen today but he thought that this rule will not apply to him, because he knows a guy who kept his American name and has the Japanese citizenship. In my opinion my friend is dead wrong. If he is to apply for the citizenship, he will need a name like Sakura Hanna Yokinen. And this American pal of his only uses his former name like a nickname or something, it's not his real name now.

If you think that's complicated, just wait until he has to apply for a hanko/inkan (http://www.thejapanguy.com/what-is-a-hanko-what-is-an-inkan/).

Try asking your friend to look at the guy's Japanese passport - I'd be very surprised if it's his former un-transliterated name.

As another example, both my children have their names 'translated' into Japanese in my wife's family register since they're written with Chinese characters that don't exist in kanji (if you think picking a baby name is tough, try finding one that works in three different languages).



And if this guy comes back to the States (or Europe or whatever) and has to write his name - his present name - on an official document, it will be "Sumisu Jon", right? I guess that was my actual question that I was trying to ask, even though I failed :D

Depends on what he used to sign in the first place. Any previously existing documentation would be unchanged, so it only becomes an issue if John Smith tries to use his Japanese passport (or other forms of Japanese documentation) as identification since it states a different name (Sumisu, Jon). If he used his birth certificate to verify his identity, that would still be John Smith and most institutions only require a formal piece of identification and a proof of address to open an account/application (eg banks), thus granting further identification to use to apply for other forms of ID. This is why the alias section exists in law enforcement personnel profiles, since people can pick up other identities perfectly legitimately (or not so legitimately as the case may be).

My wife is a Japanese national and she signs everything in Japan with her kanji name, but documents over here with her romanised name. It's worth bearing mind that documents intended for international use (eg passports) are bilingual - my wife's passport has all the category headings in both English and Japanese, but all her personal details in English. Documents intended for domestic use (eg bank statements) are going to be in the host country's language only.

Edit: A thought just hit me and I apologise if you're already aware of it, but you are aware that katakana is almost solely used for transliterating loanwords? Jon Sumisu is the romanised transliteration of the katakana and if you were translating the katakana back to English, you'd get John Smith, which may be how the guy your friend knows has kept his original name.

[Jon_Dahl]

Edit: A thought just hit me and I apologise if you're already aware of it, but you are aware that katakana is almost solely used for transliterating loanwords? Jon Sumisu is the romanised transliteration of the katakana and if you were translating the katakana back to English, you'd get John Smith, which may be how the guy your friend knows has kept his original name.

This may be the case here. Too bad, it seems that I can't win this one.

[Killer Angel]

A friend of mine got a brother that lives in Japan and has the citizenship. I'll ask and report the answer. :smallwink:

The answer is: I remembered it wrong, that brother didn't took citizenship, exactly because he shoud have changed his name, taking a japanese one.

[Jon_Dahl]

The answer is: I remembered it wrong, that brother didn't took citizenship, exactly because he shoud have changed his name, taking a japanese one.

My friend is extremely stubbornly telling me that he will not have to take a Japanese name* in order to get the citizenship, so would be it possible for you to show me clear evidence of this? Otherwise I'll never get anywhere with this.

[Brother Oni]

This may be the case here. Too bad, it seems that I can't win this one.

The problem is, you're both right. He doesn't have to change his name, but legally he will have to write it as a long string of katakana instead when he's in Japan. The earlier mentioned Marutei Tsurunen writes his name in katakana (ツルネン・マルテイ), whereas Masayoshi Son has gone for a more integrated approach with kanji (孫 正義).


My friend is extremely stubbornly telling me that he will not have to take a Japanese name* in order to get the citizenship, so would be it possible for you to show me clear evidence of this? Otherwise I'll never get anywhere with this.

Personally, if your friend is being this stubborn about it, I'd concede the argument and let him find out the hard way.

I've found a whole bunch of stuff regarding visas and naturalisation via various embassy webpages, the Japanese Immigration Bureau and the Japanese Nationality Act, but this is heading rapidly into legal advice, which we're not allowed to give on this board.
I will point out that the level of Japanese required is equivalent to a Japanese elementary school third grade, plus the naturalisation application is administered via the Bureau of Legal Affairs for the area that the applicant lives in; this is a domestic body, thus will require all documents in Japanese. This includes a Japanese legal name - whether this is a transliterated katakana name or a more natural Japanese sounding one is entire up to the applicant, assuming that it meets the government guidelines.

This informal post on taking a Japanese name may help clear some of the confusion: link (http://www.turning-japanese.info/2010/07/faq-do-you-have-to-take-japanese-name.html).

[Killer Angel]

My friend is extremely stubbornly telling me that he will not have to take a Japanese name* in order to get the citizenship, so would be it possible for you to show me clear evidence of this? Otherwise I'll never get anywhere with this.

At this point, the only evidence could be to give you the cell phone of "the brother". But that would be only a witness, not a physical proof.
Other than to report a real-life case, I fear I cannot help you.

[veti]

Why would you argue about this? It's a factual question that clearly has a correct answer, and if either of you really cares about it all you have to do is ask an appropriate expert, and be ready to pay for the advice.

Japan-guide.com suggests that you ask the nearest Japanese consulate or embassy for immigration advice. That looks like a better plan to me than asking a selection of random people on the internet.

[KeeperoftheGate]

Just make up a cool freaking Japanese name for yourself. What's the issue? : )

[An Enemy Spy]

Do you have to change your name forever or can you just have a Japanese name you only use for legal forms and then just go by your real name the rest of the time?

[Brother Oni]

Just make up a cool freaking Japanese name for yourself. What's the issue? : )

Some people are attached to a person's name. For example, parents who (usually) go through a lot of effort to get a decent one for their child.

There's also the integration issue - use a native Japanese name and people will expect a native Japanese instead of a naturalised westerner. While the inevitable '日本語が上手ですね' ('Your Japanese is very good') initially sounds like a compliment, it gets tiresome after you've been a naturalised Japanese citizen for a decade and your Japanese is flawless or barely accented. You wouldn't compliment a naturalised English speaker with "You speak English very well" after introductions, would you?


Do you have to change your name forever or can you just have a Japanese name you only use for legal forms and then just go by your real name the rest of the time?

Technically the latter but you can only use your original name in informal situations. Don't try getting anything formal done (tax forms, immigration registration, bank accounts, etc) with anything but your legal Japanese name and expect that name used in similar situations (eg hospital appointments, dealing with bureaucrats, etc).

[factotum]

You wouldn't compliment a naturalised English speaker with "You speak English very well" after introductions, would you?


*raises hand* I did that to a Swedish student I met at University 25 years ago, does that make me a bad person? :smallredface:

[Brother Oni]

*raises hand* I did that to a Swedish student I met at University 25 years ago, does that make me a bad person? :smallredface:

Were they a naturalised British citizen and more importantly, were they annoyed about you commenting on the quality of their English? :smalltongue:

Digressing a bit, it can be a subtle form of passive-aggressive racism/discrimination against someone who's obviously made considerable effort to become a native as a way of saying "No matter how hard you try, you will never fit in".

[factotum]

Were they a naturalised British citizen and more importantly, were they annoyed about you commenting on the quality of their English? :smalltongue:

No, and no, respectively. I can kind of see why it would happen if you're naturalised Japanese, though--you don't look like the locals (presumably?), so when you prove you can *speak* like them it's going to come as a bit of a surprise to people who've not met you before. Calling it passive-aggressive racism is maybe taking it a bit far, IMHO, but obviously I'm not in that situation so can't judge how annoying it gets.

[Brother Oni]

I can kind of see why it would happen if you're naturalised Japanese, though--you don't look like the locals (presumably?), so when you prove you can *speak* like them it's going to come as a bit of a surprise to people who've not met you before.

Calling it passive-aggressive racism is maybe taking it a bit far, IMHO, but obviously I'm not in that situation so can't judge how annoying it gets.

I should clarify that this was in relation to Japanese people only. There are good parts and bad parts of Japanese culture, much like any other culture, one of problems it has, is if you don't conform to norm due to both the cultural and ethnic homogeneity of the country.

To use an example, my wife is native Japanese and since she had lived abroad in in America due to her father's job, her Japanese wasn't particularly good when she went back to Japan, resulting in her getting bullied by some classmates and victimised by her school's English teacher (her English was better than the teacher's as English is taught in a very strict and regimented style in Japanese schools).

It might be because I have similarities in my background (I'm a second generation immigrant) that I'm more aware of this, plus English people tend to ask 'Where are you from' first rather than directly compliment you on your English skills, although that's probably because I speak with a full blown English accent (thankfully not a Westcountry one :smalltongue:).

Similarly, if someone is speaking Japanese with a native Japanese accent, complimenting them on the quality of their Japanese is a bit funny at best. Take a look at the fuss raised when Ariana Miyamoto won the Miss Japan title (link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-32957610)) or some of the issues that Japanese born black singer Crystal Kay faced (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Kay#Influence)).

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, the Japanese can be some of the most polite rude people you're ever likely to run into. :smallamused:

[NichG]

I'm still at the point where my Japanese isn't all that great, but yes, I know exactly what Brother Oni is talking about with people having sort of overblown reactions. That said, this kind of thing also tends to work to the advantage of foreigners as much as it works against them, so I can live with it. I'm happy to consider it a fair trade for all the times when there's something annoyingly bureaucratic that I get protected from on the basis of 'no, obviously we can't expect you to understand how to do this correctly so we'll just take care of it for you'.

One mild annoyance is that it can make it surprisingly hard to get opportunities to actually practice speaking Japanese beyond very simple stuff.

[Killer Angel]

I wonder if the issue with the stubborn friend, has been resolved...

[Jon_Dahl]

I wonder if the issue with the stubborn friend, has been resolved...

I decided to follow Brother Oni's advice:

Personally, if your friend is being this stubborn about it, I'd concede the argument and let him find out the hard way.

[Killer Angel]

I decided to follow Brother Oni's advice:

Ah, smart move... :smallwink:

[Jon_Dahl]

Similarly, if someone is speaking Japanese with a native Japanese accent, complimenting them on the quality of their Japanese is a bit funny at best. Take a look at the fuss raised when Ariana Miyamoto won the Miss Japan title (link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-32957610)) or some of the issues that Japanese born black singer Crystal Kay faced (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Kay#Influence)).

That kind of reminded me of this:
http://www.japanprobe.com/2009/08/15/bobby-ologun-profits-by-betting-against-japanese-tolerance-for-international-marriages/

[Aedilred]

probably because I speak with a full blown English accent (thankfully not a Westcountry one :smalltongue:).

...

What's wrong with a Westcountry accent? :smalltongue:

[Brother Oni]

That kind of reminded me of this:
http://www.japanprobe.com/2009/08/15/bobby-ologun-profits-by-betting-against-japanese-tolerance-for-international-marriages/

Japanese variety shows are just plain weird. I remember one where a bunch of comedians are trapped in a sports hall for 24 hours and have to avoid being 'got' by various pranks and suffering a forfeit, some of which are incredibly weird and others are just plain worrying (one involved getting held down while an adult and some primary school children ran up and rubbed their naked arses on his face). The other shows in this series (the contestants have to try not to laugh, else they suffer a forfeit, usually something involving pain) aren't as worrying, and generally quite entertaining.

I also can't see this happening anywhere else: Thickly sliced Jason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk-Gn3w2gt0). For reference, the performer's Japanese is actually very good (properly conjugated and everything), just that he's playing up his accent and making intentional mistakes to help his act.


What's wrong with a Westcountry accent? :smalltongue:

Not needing a personal translator for starters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfSnaY1Wp_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=13). :smalltongue:

Although that clip's more Wiltshire-y than Devonshire-y, at least it's not Brizzle. Oh god, I've gone local...

Anyway, despite this some English folk apparently have a problem understanding whatever accent I do have: the NATO phonetic alphabet is quite useful in these case.

[Eldan]

Yeah, the moment you start arguing regional accents, you've gone natives. Switzerland is tiny, and we still argue accents between cantons, and then regions within cantons, and then districts and cities.

[qechua]

Not needing a personal translator for starters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfSnaY1Wp_U&feature=player_detailpage#t=13). :smalltongue:

Although that clip's more Wiltshire-y than Devonshire-y, at least it's not Brizzle. Oh god, I've gone local....

As a native Devonian, it's probably a bit bad that first time I saw Hot Fuzz, I didn't need the translator. It's probably even worse that there are members of my extended family that I'd really do need a translator for. Seriously, that clip has nothing on some of my Grandfathers-brothers-families (don't know family trees too well, so don't know the actual term).

It is, however, fun, when new University students turn up, and any locals go straight into full westcountry mode when they meet me. Bonus points if they've been suppressing an accent to fit in more, then all their friends are like 'where did that come from, and also what were you talking about?' Rural westcountry, as good as a foreign language for talking in front of people you don't want listening in :smallbiggrin:

Also, get it right, it's Briz'l. The a/e/o/insert letter of choice is silent :)

[Jon_Dahl]

Help settle another argument about Japan, specifically about Japanese. I'm not having this argument, but apparently some Brazilians do.

What does the Kanji really say? Ignore the Portuguese stuff.
One version: "All-Powerful God".
Another version: "Stupid Foreigner".

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12733488_834372830018839_7965083551938190655_n.jpg ?oh=65af3d3e08d9e4b38033de0859e28b71&oe=575A0009

[Rain Dragon]

The answer is B. :/ Unless it isn't, in which case I'm rather surprised.
Here (http://jisho.org/search/馬鹿外人)'s an online dictionary link.

[Brother Oni]

Will check with the missus on alternate kanji readings, but I'm inclined to agree with Rain Dragon if we're using Japanese.

In romanji: 馬鹿 - Baka, 外人 - Gaijin

At least it's not written in the phonetic Chinese character script used by bad tattoo parlours.

Edit: the missus agrees and says that 'All Powerful God' would probably be something like 最強の神 - Saikyo no Kami, literally 'Strongest of Gods'

[Jon_Dahl]

Will check with the missus on alternate kanji readings, but I'm inclined to agree with Rain Dragon if we're using Japanese.

In romanji: 馬鹿 - Baka, 外人 - Gaijin

At least it's not written in the phonetic Chinese character script used by bad tattoo parlours.

Edit: the missus agrees and says that 'All Powerful God' would probably be something like 最強の神 - Saikyo no Kami, literally 'Strongest of Gods'

I hope the Brazilian gets his money back.

[BootStrapTommy]

Okay, how to explain this...

I have friend whose surname is ****. Since I guarantee the profanity filter got that one, let's just say that his German ancestors went by Kuhn and the Anglicisation is unfortunate.

The point is, languages don't really mesh well. If English can turn Kuhn into a racial slur, than imagine the pain of converting langauges that don't share an alphabet.

The anwser is B, with a caveat. The Japanese are simply converting your name into a form that can be read or understood more easily by the Japanese. In other words, they don't give you a new name; they just Nipponise you foreign name because it makes paperwork easier.

Foreign words are hard to integrate into a language. Especially if you don't share an alphabet. Some cultures take shortcuts. English does much the same all the time.

[Brother Oni]

The point is, languages don't really mesh well. If English can turn Kuhn into a racial slur, than imagine the pain of converting langauges that don't share an alphabet.

The anwser is B, with a caveat. The Japanese are simply converting your name into a form that can be read or understood more easily by the Japanese. In other words, they don't give you a new name; they just Nipponise you foreign name because it makes paperwork easier.


Except that Japanese has an entire alphabet system dedicated to the transliteration of foreign words into Japanese syllables.

As discussed earlier, you also pick your new name, provided it's within the range of acceptable government characters (joyo kanji (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji)), with some exceptions for people whose original names use Chinese characters.



Foreign words are hard to integrate into a language. Especially if you don't share an alphabet. Some cultures take shortcuts. English does much the same all the time.

Depends on the language. Some languages have a set system for incorporating foreign words, while some follow other languages down dark alleys and mug them for loose grammar and vocabulary.
Japanese is an excellent example of the former, while English does the latter, especially in slang. As an example, the Egyptian Arabic word شُفْتِي ‎(šufti) meaning 'have you seen' has been incorporated into the English (mostly military) slang 'shufti' meaning 'to have a quick look/reconnoitre', as a result of time spent in Northern Africa during WW2.

[Razade]

Foreign words are hard to integrate into a language. Especially if you don't share an alphabet. Some cultures take shortcuts. English does much the same all the time.

Except they're honestly actually not. We've got a term in English for them they're so not hard to integrate and incorporate into our language. They're called loanwords. Here's a whole list of them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_words_by_country_or_language_of_o rigin). Here's a list of English and "Anglican" words in Japanese (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gairaigo_and_wasei-eigo_terms). And yet, some more examples you can look over specifically. Words like Schadenfreude which came into parlance in the last ten years is a perfect example of such a word. Aardvark is another. Cafe? That's not English originally but when I say I went to a cafe to you now you know exactly what I mean. There's no difficulty in understanding because we stole a French word and made it ours. Kindergarten? No direct English translation because kindergarten is the translation. It means what it is, we didn't adapt the word to our language. But we can look at another language with loan words where the two don't share alphabet. The Dutch language and Indonesian Language where almost 20% of the Indonesian Language is borrowed from the Dutch Language (http://escholarship.org/uc/item/2cg0m6cq). Humans are very good at communicating at one another. So good that we'll borrow and steal words from one another when and where we can to get our point across. We've been doing it since different cultures began to mix and it's probably not going to stop any time soon unless a country (looking at you France) artificially stops it. Even then, good luck to those Countries giving that a go, doomed to fail really.