Any "multiclass PrCs" that aren't traps?

[Willie the Duck]

So by now we all know that the Mystic Theurge is a trap. Arcane Heirophant is an interesting side build that is less powerful than straight Druid, but nearly everything is and it gives you some interesting diversity. Gish in general falls under the "every level of full spellcaster you give up is technically foolish, but we understand that you want to recapture the magic of pre-3e fighter/mages, and you can do so with only a slight loss if you make ridiculously complex builds." Fochlucan lyrist is... okay if you can cheat your way around the 2 rogue levels. Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

So my actual question is: What multiclasses, and by that I mean 1e/2e conceptual multiclasses like fighter/mage (which might not actually include any levels of fighter) are actually possible in 3e?By possible I mean is reasonable to play and aren't "traps," not that they are comparable to straight 20th level druid, cleric or wizard.

[OldTrees1]

So by now we all know that the Mystic Theurge is a trap.
Remember Mystic Theruge is only considered a trap when ignoring spells when counting class features or when comparing to the Leadership feat. Neither of these comparisons is relevant to the standard you are asking in reference to.

By the standard you described later in your post
1e/2e conceptual multiclasses like fighter/mage all +1/+1 levels per PrC level classes are not traps. In 1e/2e IIRC the multiclass characters advanced slower than the single classed versions but were never more than a few levels behind. The standard theruge prestige class implements this balance until the PrC runs out of levels.

The only traps are things like Geomancer (+1/+0 per PrC level) or True Necromancer (+12/+12 per 14 levels and gets as low as +5/+5 per 7 levels). Ultimate Magus gets +9/+9 per 10 levels which is close enough for many builds.

[nedz]

It depends upon your outlook

In a low tier party: Mystic Theurge is not a trap.
With an X1 / Y2 early entry trick: Mystic Theurge only costs you 1 caster level.
Now in a high tier party: Mystic Theurge is a trap.


So your criteria seem quite high.
By the sounds of it: Sorcerer is a trap.

[Psyren]

There are plenty of powerful theurges out there, especially if you can enter with a fast-casting class like Ur-Priest. Psychic Theurge/Ardent/Ur-Priest is actually stronger than the sum of its parts, because of the Wis synergy and action economy power that psionics lends to the build. You end up with a Cleric that can take multiple standard actions per turn, stop time, jump around in the intiative order at will etc.

There are other powerful theurge examples too. The power of Anima Mage and Tenebrous Apostate are both well documented, and you can even combine them via Anima Priest. Wizard/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer can actually play as a full wizard until it enters using the "Creeping Darkness" sidebar to trade levels in when you're ready to PrC. Soul Manifester gets to benefit from all the massive Psycarnum synergy as well as unlock every chakra except Heart and Soul while still getting 9th-level powers. You can actually triple-theurge with that one if you use StP Erudite, and defeat your UPD limitations via Soul Crystal. Sapphire Hierarch can Channel Incarnum to get tons of bonus essentia. Sha'ir can allow your Warlock to qualify for both Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple, getting you both 9th-level spells and Dark Invocations. Another 9ths + Darks build involves Warlock, Eldritch Disciple and Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader. And so on and so forth.

[A_S]

Unseen Seer does a very good and non-trappy job of making Mage/Thief types (though I guess you can argue that doing anything other than spells is kind of a trap when you have Wizard levels). You can throw in a little gishiness and do a good job of Fighter/Mage/Thief.

[Telonius]

Sacred Fist is decent for a Monk/Cleric hybrid. It will lose you somewhere between zero and four caster levels (up to 2 for Monk levels, depending on how many feats you want to invest at level-ups rather than get free from Monk; and either 0 or 2 from Sacred Fist, depending on how the DM rules the text/table conflict). But it's full-BAB (better than either Cleric or Monk), gives a few offensive goodies, and advances a few things you care about from Monk (unarmed damage, fast movement, AC bonus).

[Zaydos]

Anima Mage is comparable to Wizard + PrC
Arcane Hierophant is comparable to Wizard + PrC or Druid. Works because you can get double 9s even without early entry. Early entry is harder to do here but just makes it better.
Ultimate Magus is comparable to Wizard + PrC if you use Practiced Spellcaster to avoid losing as many levels from your good casting.

None of these are as good as Wizard + Incanatrix, but then again almost nothing is. Yet a lot of "X is a trap" thought actually is "X is not as strong as Incanatrix/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil".

[Flickerdart]

So my actual question is: What multiclasses, and by that I mean 1e/2e conceptual multiclasses like fighter/mage (which might not actually include any levels of fighter) are actually possible in 3e?By possible I mean is reasonable to play and aren't "traps," not that they are comparable to straight 20th level druid, cleric or wizard.
Funny you should mention 1e/2e. The fochlucan lyrist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) PrC is based on the old school bard, and while the entry requirements are tricky, the advantages of getting in are fantastic: 10/10 BAB, 10/10 arcane casting progression, 10/10 divine casting progression. 6+INT skills per level from a very solid list. d6 HD isn't amazing, but we all know your CON matters more anyhow.

The requirements clearly expect you to enter as a druid/rogue/bard, but this is dumb. You need bardic music, evasion, and level 1 arcane and divine casting.

Bardic music can come from bard, but doesn't need to - spellsinger will give it to you without losing CLs. Evasion can be acquired through an item or soulmeld. Divine casting can be picked up with but a level of ur-priest (though you may want 2 for the rebuking).

So something like sorcerer 8/spellsinger 1/ur-priest 1/fochlucan lyrist 10 gets 14 BAB, 19/20 sorcerer casting, 10/10 ur-priest casting, music like a 10th level bard, and more skill points than you can shake a stick at.

[Waazraath]

Anima Mage is comparable to Wizard + PrC
Arcane Hierophant is comparable to Wizard + PrC or Druid. Works because you can get double 9s even without early entry. Early entry is harder to do here but just makes it better.
Ultimate Magus is comparable to Wizard + PrC if you use Practiced Spellcaster to avoid losing as many levels from your good casting.

None of these are as good as Wizard + Incanatrix, but then again almost nothing is. Yet a lot of "X is a trap" thought actually is "X is not as strong as Incanatrix/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil".

+1

Also: the Ruby knight vindicator from Tome of Battle is great, Jade phoenix master is decent.

[Aleolus]

+1

Also: the Ruby knight vindicator from Tome of Battle is great, Jade phoenix master is decent.

RKV is Tome of Magic, not Battle. JPM is Tome of Battle

[Waazraath]

RKV is Tome of Magic, not Battle. JPM is Tome of Battle

Nope. Anima mage is ToM, RKV is the divine / maneuver double class from ToB.

[Douglas]

RKV is Tome of Magic, not Battle.
Tome of Battle, page 122.

[Aleolus]

...ohhh, I was thinking of the Binder PrC that is similar. Sorry, my bad

[Waazraath]

...ohhh, I was thinking of the Binder PrC that is similar. Sorry, my bad yeah, the anima mage, thought you did :smalltongue:

[Telok]

I'd say that the multiclass PrCs are usually traps if entered through the intended build path with the intended classes. Sorc/Favored Soul/Mystic Theurge is horrible, and the intended wiz/cleric 3/3 entry is bad too for getting 3rd level spells at level 8. But if you can theurge with Duskblade/Precousious Apprentice/Ur-Priest before level five or something similar then it's good.

Generaly unoptomized entry into the theurge PrCs seems to be ok at best and terrible at worst. Optomized entry is generally ok to great.

[Zaydos]

Oh yeah Abjurant Champion is a good 'Fighter' Wizard class. Especially if you're good aligned (Greater Luminous Armor please).

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think that Arcane Trickster isn't bad either. You need some special skills to get in, and sneak attack, but as long as you can qualify with Assassin's Stance, it's a decent way to spice up a plain wizard build.

Some of the worse PrCs might qualify as commoner/X multiclass, and they tend to be great upgrades over commoner :smallbiggrin:.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Swiftblade is quite good entered properly, and still allows 9th level spells.

Also as always it depends on your baseline. If your baseline is 9th level spells, then only 9/9 or 9/9/9 builds are better, and even then only if they also get extra actions to use them. If you start slightly lower down, then dual-advancement classes can be quite good with fast entries.

[Troacctid]

Soulcaster is quite good at abusing Share Soulmeld for improved action economy.

Also see my signature.

[Willie the Duck]

Also as always it depends on your baseline. If your baseline is 9th level spells, then only 9/9 or 9/9/9 builds are better, and even then only if they also get extra actions to use them. If you start slightly lower down, then dual-advancement classes can be quite good with fast entries.

I think my baseline (or at least my criteria for being neither traps nor cheese) is:

Build can be played in realistic groups at levels 1-20
Build is not expected to keep up with the Tier 1s, but
Build can keep their head above water, so-to-speak
Someone would actually play this build in a game where power has some relevance.



The last one is the hardest to quantify, or even explain. Examples that fail that requirement I can think of would be straight fighter10/wizard 10 -- you don't play it unless for purely roleplaying reasons, or Geomancer, as mentioned earlier.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Ok, that seems reasonable. So in that case, many of them are going to qualify provided they're entered properly.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Ok, that seems reasonable. So in that case, many of them are going to qualify provided they're entered properly.

[Cruiser1]

Bardic music can come from bard, but doesn't need to - spellsinger will give it to you without losing CLs.
That's true, but not for Spellsinger. Spellsinger's PrC ability simply says you can add your Spellsinger class level to some class that grants Bardic Music, for the purpose of using Bardic Music. Spellsinger doesn't actually grant Bardic Music if you don't already have it.

Compare Spellsinger to Warrior Skald (on the very next page) which does actually does grant Bardic Music, with the clear text, "At 1st level, the Warrior Skald gains the bardic music ability if she did not already have it from a previous class."

[ATHATH]

How good is Mind Mage (the one from Dragon, not the Cerebremancer), by the way?

[OldTrees1]

How good is Mind Mage (the one from Dragon, not the Cerebremancer), by the way?

I noticed it was an +8/+8 for 10 levels theruge class. So I would rate it as bad as True Necromancer (a +12/+12 for 14).

[ATHATH]

I noticed it was an +8/+8 for 10 levels theruge class. So I would rate it as bad as True Necromancer (a +12/+12 for 14).
The reason I ask is that it lets you add your Mind Mage class level to your CL and/or ML. The important part about that is that it stacks with the CL/ML given by the class, effectively giving near-double CL/ML progression. You manifest lower-level powers, but can augment them better (I think you can also convert spells to PP to power them, as well).

If I recall correctly, it also lets you use PP to apply metamagic to your spells.

[Telok]

I think my metric would be something like: Playable from 1 to 20, must qualify for tiers 2 or 3, must lose less than 4 caster levels or have class abilities worth 9th level spells, must capture the feel of the multiclass it's trying for. If it meets those qualifications without cheese or TO tricks then it's fine. If it only needs a single trick or such to enter early or with a different class and then fufills the requirements it's ok. If you need multiple tricks, questionable rulings, or a very lenient DM to meet those criteria then it's bad.

[OldTrees1]

The reason I ask is that it lets you add your Mind Mage class level to your CL and/or ML. The important part about that is that it stacks with the CL/ML given by the class, effectively giving near-double CL/ML progression. You manifest lower-level powers, but can augment them better (I think you can also convert spells to PP to power them, as well).

If I recall correctly, it also lets you use PP to apply metamagic to your spells.

The capstone might benefit the psionic side enough, but increased caster level is not comparable with increased spellcasting level. So I would still rank it as a trap. However you may differ on that.

[Snowbluff]

Mystic Theurge: Super easy to get into.
Eldritch Disciple: Add warlock abilities and Ur Priest. Done.
Anima Mage: Single level entry with warlock.
Unseen Seer: Neat.
Arcane Hierophant: Legimately better than straight druid by a significant margin. You earn so many spells that a druid can't otherwise cast.
Ultimage Magus: UNLIMITED POWER!
Tenebrous Apostate: Ur Priest + Binder = Infinity Persisted Spells per day.

They only suck as bad as you do. Having a grossly expanded spell list and slots for usually just 1 level dip is super good.

[ATHATH]

The capstone might benefit the psionic side enough, but increased caster level is not comparable with increased spellcasting level. So I would still rank it as a trap. However you may differ on that.
Yeah, it boosts the Psionic side much more than the Arcane side, but my question is if the boost to the psionic side is worth it.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, it boosts the Psionic side much more than the Arcane side, but my question is if the boost to the psionic side is worth it.

I don't think it is worth it for a psionic character but I could be wrong.

[DeAnno]

I've seen Daggerspell Mage levels on a Rogue charge/hide focused build before, but it was mainly practical because casting was not the focus. He often charged his daggers with Combust or Shivering Touch, and they were spell storing so he could jam two things inside of each that way. People scoff for the single missing caster level, but the powerful action economy of Daggercast is pretty good honestly.

[Thurbane]

Anima Mage: Single level entry with warlock.

Interesting - how do you pull this off? I'm assuming the two Binding feats, but how to get the casting reqs - that wonky FR feat that gives you casting? I'm also assuming needs Human and two flaws?

If so, i'd be interested in looking at this for Dragonfire Adept, although they have more to lose by PrCing than Warlock does.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The reason I ask is that it lets you add your Mind Mage class level to your CL and/or ML. The important part about that is that it stacks with the CL/ML given by the class, effectively giving near-double CL/ML progression. You manifest lower-level powers, but can augment them better (I think you can also convert spells to PP to power them, as well).

If I recall correctly, it also lets you use PP to apply metamagic to your spells.

The class features on Mind Mage are insane. You get to apply metamagic for PP, spend PP to cast spells from lower level slots, greatly increase your CL/ML, use Concussive Blast to apply touch spells with the same action and (if you select your entry feats appropriately) get double your ability mod on DC rolls for a big chunk of your spells and powers, along with a bunch of more minor benefits. Dual Plane Summons is also exceptionally strong if you want to focus on summoning.

It's one of the few caster PrCs that i'd say is worth actually losing two levels of progression. Losing 9th level spells isn't that much of a loss if the class lets you cast them anyway from 8th level slots.

It does have a pretty significant period of weakness at the low-mid levels, so if your campaign isn't going to last long enough to actually reap the benefits you're better off choosing something else. If you're playing at high levels with decent optimization it's competitive with a wizard/incantatrix build, which is a high bar to reach by any standard.

Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 4 gets 8th level spells and 9th level powers, with CL 25/ML 27 and the ability to prepare 9th level spells in 8th level slots and get free metamagic by spending PP (among other things).
The caster side suffers slightly compared to wizard/incantatrix by losing some high level slots, but 9th level powers with a ML of 27 (without Practiced Manifester, ML 30 with) more than makes up for it in my opinion.

[Troacctid]

You get to apply metamagic for PP, [...] greatly increase your CL/ML,
Well, you can get those as a Cerebremancer too if you take Cerebremetamagic and Psiotheurgy as feats, right?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, you can get those as a Cerebremancer too if you take Cerebremetamagic and Psiotheurgy as feats, right?

I'm AFB, but iirc Cerebremetamagic is limited to one spell/day (and possibly by the maximum level you can cast, not sure about that one).
Psiotheurgist only increases ML for one discipline and requires Spell Focus. You can also get it as a Mind Mage for even more ML, but that's quickly edging into overkill.

The really big benefit is that you get it all in one class along with all the other features, the biggest of which is the ability to cast spells from lower level slots. Aside from the obvious that also adds a big chunk of value to Rings of Wizardry, Pearls of Power and similar items.
If you want to get cheesy it also gets you unlimited spells via Mordenkainen's Lucubration + Twin Spell.

It's not like the feat requirements are useless trash like Dodge or Skill Focus, so the 2 levels of progression is pretty much all you lose and the class features make up for that imo.
Some of those Psi-spell feats are really good, my favorites being Dual Plane Summons (adding useful on-the-fly customization to your summons) and Solid Freeze (which adds rather scary BFC when you get the big DC boost from adding double your Int mod).

[ATHATH]

Then you start factoring in infinite PP tricks...

[Snowbluff]

Interesting - how do you pull this off? I'm assuming the two Binding feats, but how to get the casting reqs - that wonky FR feat that gives you casting?
You can work with that feat, but directly entering with Precocious Apprentice works better. Warlock also has the necessary skills. Enjoy your next tens levels of being two classes! :smalltongue:

I'm also assuming needs Human and two flaws? You're goddamn right.


If so, i'd be interested in looking at this for Dragonfire Adept, although they have more to lose by PrCing than Warlock does.

DFA are pretty much worse straight classed than warlock, actually. High level Warlocks are unbroken artificers.

[Willie the Duck]

Funny you should mention 1e/2e. The fochlucan lyrist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) PrC is based on the old school bard, and while the entry requirements are tricky, the advantages of getting in are fantastic: 10/10 BAB, 10/10 arcane casting progression, 10/10 divine casting progression. 6+INT skills per level from a very solid list. d6 HD isn't amazing, but we all know your CON matters more anyhow.

The requirements clearly expect you to enter as a druid/rogue/bard, but this is dumb. You need bardic music, evasion, and level 1 arcane and divine casting.

Bardic music can come from bard, but doesn't need to - spellsinger will give it to you without losing CLs. Evasion can be acquired through an item or soulmeld. Divine casting can be picked up with but a level of ur-priest (though you may want 2 for the rebuking).

So something like sorcerer 8/spellsinger 1/ur-priest 1/fochlucan lyrist 10 gets 14 BAB, 19/20 sorcerer casting, 10/10 ur-priest casting, music like a 10th level bard, and more skill points than you can shake a stick at.

Fochlucan Lyrist (here (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds)is the handbook I use for it: ) is a great example of the problem with merging theme with PrC design. The concept is great--mimic a 1st edition AD&D bard by making a high skill point, does-the-bard-thing (still advances bardic music, etc.), high BAB (to mimic being a dual-class fighter in 1e) guy who wears light metal armor but casts some low level (replicating the 1e late entry) druid spells, and doesn't utilize the combat wildshape and good-as-a-fighter animal companions which define 3e druids but weren't present in earlier editions (yes, there was druid wildshape and the animal friendship spell, they weren't the same). The problem is that it doesn't work well without early/alternate entry. The at least 2 levels or rogue and 1 of druid hobble the bard's already light spellcasting. The at least 2 of rogue and 1 of bard limit the usefulness of the druid casting (and the druid spell list is already less useful without wildshape and level appropriate animal companions). Choosing to make it a PrC one starts at level 11 means that the +1/lvl bab is too little too late to base your combat bard around the build. I certainly would play this one for flavor, but the honest entry (Rogue 2/Bard 7/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10) seems less powerful and less adaptable than a straight bard, which is kinda disappointing. I want to like the PrC, but it looks like I'd want to use some cheese to actually play one, which I'm of two minds about.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I want to like the PrC, but it looks like I'd want to use some cheese to actually play one, which I'm of two minds about.

There isn't really anything cheesy about making smart build choices. Getting Evasion via meldshaping feats, Spelldancer or another option that doesn't sacrifice two levels of casting already makes the PrC a whole lot more interesting.

It also makes a far more interesting druid with some bard flavor (Bard 2/Druid 8/FL 10) than a bard with some druid spells, because the druid spell list is a lot more interesting than the bard one.
You get almost complete bardic music from 12 levels & a Vest of Legends, and the the AoE buff nature of that synergizes very nicely with a summoning focused build. 8 levels of Wildshape progression are also enough for a decent defensive casting form like the Desmodu Hunting Bat, and you can trade the animal companion for the Urban Companion ACF from Cityscape. The only thing here i'd be really sad about losing is Dire Tortoise form, otherwise it's a pretty high-powered member in most parties with excellent group support.

For more power you can make it Bard 1/Druid 7/Spelldancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 for dual 9th level spells, decent bardic music, free metamagic and a ton of skill points, which is a pretty decent array of options by any standard.

No, it's not stronger than pure druid. Very few things are. It is however perfectly playable even in a relatively optimized party, so i'd hardly call it a trap.

[ATHATH]

Wouldn't Druid 7/Heartfire Fanner 1/Spelldancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 be a better build?

[ATHATH]

Wait, never mind, my build doesn't give Bardic Knowledge.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Wait, never mind, my build doesn't give Bardic Knowledge.

It also doesn't have any arcane casting, you'll need at least 1 level in a class that grants that instead of only progressing it. You're going to run into big feat problems too with Spelldancer and Heartfire Fanner.
Not to mention that taking just one level of Heartfire Fanner is a waste. The class features are really good, and spending the feats on the requirements and then only taking one level of it doesn't make much sense either.

The class doesn't really fit into a Fochlucan Lyrist build because you can enter at ECL 8 at the earliest iirc. It works much better in a pure Bard/Sublime Chord build.
You're not going to have much time to melee anyway with all the abilities you get in addition to spellcasting, so even if you could squeeze it in you'd just run right into the action limit, not to mention that the playstyles clash a fair bit.
Fochlucan Lyrist makes for a pretty solid theurge gish, while Heartfire Fanner lends itself better to a backline support/caster playstyle.

If you allow Dragon Magazine content the Greensinger makes for a much better entry. It's pretty much made for a Fochlucan Lyrist build.

[Willie the Duck]

There isn't really anything cheesy about making smart build choices. Getting Evasion via meldshaping feats, Spelldancer or another option that doesn't sacrifice two levels of casting already makes the PrC a whole lot more interesting.

As I said, I'm of two minds on the matter. On one hand, it has the taste of cheese, on the other hand, evasion is not so awesome that it shouldn't be available for the cost of two feats. It's just strange to need incarnum feats to make bard and druid work together.


It also makes a far more interesting druid with some bard flavor (Bard 2/Druid 8/FL 10) than a bard with some druid spells, because the druid spell list is a lot more interesting than the bard one.
You get almost complete bardic music from 12 levels & a Vest of Legends, and the the AoE buff nature of that synergizes very nicely with a summoning focused build. 8 levels of Wildshape progression are also enough for a decent defensive casting form like the Desmodu Hunting Bat, and you can trade the animal companion for the Urban Companion ACF from Cityscape. The only thing here i'd be really sad about losing is Dire Tortoise form, otherwise it's a pretty high-powered member in most parties with excellent group support.

That is pretty interesting, although pretty much the opposite of recapturing the 1e bard feel.


For more power you can make it Bard 1/Druid 7/Spelldancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 for dual 9th level spells, decent bardic music, free metamagic and a ton of skill points, which is a pretty decent array of options by any standard.

It's unlikely that my DM would allow that multi-PrCing. Dertainly I doubt he'd allow sublime chord1 and then Fochlucan Lyrist for 9th level casting.

I might have to make a thread for building this.

[ATHATH]

Which Dragon is Greensinger in?

[Willie the Duck]

Which Dragon is Greensinger in?

311 I believe.

[Zancloufer]

As mentioned with Precious Apprentice you can get into the Mystic Theurge as early as level 5. By level 14 you have effectively 11 Arcane and 13 divine spell casting. The reason it's considered a trap is that you then have to choose which side to advance.

Well normally. Fun fact: There are a number of PrCs (Divine Oracle, Geomancer and Sacred Exorcist come to mind and they have easy enough to hit prerequisites) that advance spell casting "+1 of existing Class". Not "+1 Divine" or "+1 Arcane" "+1 spellcasting". Now they all say if you have more than one class that grants you spell casting (or for the Exorcist more than one that let's you cast the prerequisite spells) you have to choose one, but there is nothing saying you can't advance Mystic Theurge casting. Well except Sacred Exorcist, which you HAVE to advance the class that granted you access to 5th level spells and since that's technically the Mystic Theurge. . .

I mean you don't get 9th level spells till 18, and double 9s until 20, but having 2x the spell list while being 1-3 levels behind in spells know/per day? It's far from a trap. Becomes even better if you qualify with Geomancer as that let's you consolidate your casting stat.

[nedz]

Well normally. Fun fact: There are a number of PrCs (Divine Oracle, Geomancer and Sacred Exorcist come to mind and they have easy enough to hit prerequisites) that advance spell casting "+1 of existing Class". Not "+1 Divine" or "+1 Arcane" "+1 spellcasting". Now they all say if you have more than one class that grants you spell casting (or for the Exorcist more than one that let's you cast the prerequisite spells) you have to choose one, but there is nothing saying you can't advance Mystic Theurge casting. Well except Sacred Exorcist, which you HAVE to advance the class that granted you access to 5th level spells and since that's technically the Mystic Theurge. . .

No.

MT doesn't have any spellcasting to advance so this doesn't work - it just advances the casting of the base classes. If this did work then by stacking all the Theurge classes one could get quintuple 9's.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As mentioned with Precious Apprentice you can get into the Mystic Theurge as early as level 5. By level 14 you have effectively 11 Arcane and 13 divine spell casting. The reason it's considered a trap is that you then have to choose which side to advance.

Well normally. Fun fact: There are a number of PrCs (Divine Oracle, Geomancer and Sacred Exorcist come to mind and they have easy enough to hit prerequisites) that advance spell casting "+1 of existing Class". Not "+1 Divine" or "+1 Arcane" "+1 spellcasting". Now they all say if you have more than one class that grants you spell casting (or for the Exorcist more than one that let's you cast the prerequisite spells) you have to choose one, but there is nothing saying you can't advance Mystic Theurge casting. Well except Sacred Exorcist, which you HAVE to advance the class that granted you access to 5th level spells and since that's technically the Mystic Theurge. . .
As mentioned, it doesn't work that way. Mystic Theurge has no casting of its own, so there's nothing to advance.

The general way to dual nines is either getting into Arcane Hierophant and padding the leftover levels with Mystic Theurge (hard if you don't want druid for the divine side) or using Ur-Priest for the divine side/Sublime Chord for the arcane side. Fast progression is your friend.


I mean you don't get 9th level spells till 18, and double 9s until 20, but having 2x the spell list while being 1-3 levels behind in spells know/per day? It's far from a trap. Becomes even better if you qualify with Geomancer as that let's you consolidate your casting stat.
The spell lists have a fair bit of overlap, and any T1 caster has a spell list that is more than sufficient to get through 99% of campaigns.
Having (almost) twice as many spell slots is only valuable if you often find yourself with no time to rest (and can't get consumables for whatever reason).

In all other situations getting access to a higher spell level a level or two earlier is probably more valuable, and taking levels in a PrC that actually grants class features is probably going to be more valuable than getting access to a second spell list.
The biggest example of that would be something like Incantatrix - compare a build with that to a Mystic Theurge build and the pure wizard will come out ahead by a landslide, and you've still got room for more PrC levels.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Shadowcraft Mage, Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion and similar classes add a lot more value to an arcane caster than getting divine casting too.
Clerics already get access to a big chunk of arcane lists with options like Divine Magician ACF and the Magic and Spell domains. Their PrCs aren't on the level of Incantatrix, but there's still things like Ruby Knight Vindicator, RSoP, Dweomerkeeper and so on that add a lot more than a few additional spells.
Druids don't get many good PrCs except maybe Moonspeaker (nobody allows Planar Shepherd), but they don't need to. Even full casting PrCs rarely make up for Wild Shape and Animal Companion progression, and some wizard casting won't really make up for that.

And all of that just ignores the biggest problem with theurges - action economy (and MAD). Unless your fights and adventuring days last significantly longer than normal you won't have the time to use all your spells over the course of a day. At higher levels even a single casting progression isn't usually fully used up, and that's again ignoring consumables.
Now you can get around that, especially with psionic theurges, but it's generally considered overkill at most tables that will at least get you very dirty looks.

TL:DR - Theurges add nothing that you can't get out of consumables, and most of the time what they add is doing nothing for you.
Their true cost isn't just lost progression, but also what you could have taken instead - a PrC with features that synergize with what you already have.

Not that theurges are really "a trap". They're perfectly playable in most games, because magic is awesome. They're just not better (or even equal) to single-progression casters with other PrCs.

[Willie the Duck]

sleepyphoenixx, I have heard that argument a zillion times (that full spellcasters aren't going to run out of spells), but I have never seen it happen in play. This is particularly true once you consider the possibility that the reason a spellcaster ends the day with uncast spells is because in a given day they have memorized the wrong spells for what ends up occurring (a situation where dual spellcasting might help).

[Seward]

I find that weirdly, the dragon disciple is a pretty well designed class. It does something unique that you can't get with feats or archetypes or whatever, and does something unusual (trades BAB for raw strength) that is interesting to some kinds of martial characters. I like the Pathfinder take on Arcane Archer for a similar reason (and indeed, even the 3.5 version was decent if you wanted a character who was a dangerous archer, as opposed to a bow that was dangerous that was used by a random dude)

[Ruethgar]

Major Bloodline 3/Totem Druid 3/Wizard 1/Test Based Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2

That is an animal companion up to Druid level 21, limited wildshape up to Druid level 16, Druid level 19 spellcasting, Wizard level 17 spellcasting. You loose out on a few high level spells but you have 9ths in two of the most powerful classes with one of them having a near full class feature advancement.

Replace Druid with Wild Defender and Sword of the Arcane Order and you can get a Wizard 17 with an animal companion Druid level 18, extra low level wizard spell slots, and wider array of spells to choose from. Not as worth it as the Druid, but not a trap either.

[sleepyphoenixx]

sleepyphoenixx, I have heard that argument a zillion times (that full spellcasters aren't going to run out of spells), but I have never seen it happen in play. This is particularly true once you consider the possibility that the reason a spellcaster ends the day with uncast spells is because in a given day they have memorized the wrong spells for what ends up occurring (a situation where dual spellcasting might help).

That's what consumables are for. Wands and scrolls should cover the days where you need a few extra spells. Unless you regularly find yourself out of spells with the day only half over, and that's not the expected encounter rate.
If your party always has extra long adventuring days it may be worth it to give theurging another look, but going by the DMG guidelines it shouldn't be necessary.

As for preparing the wrong spells, that's just players not using their options. Prepared casters can (and should) leave a few spell slots free. In a lot of situations you do have 15 minutes to prepare the perfect spell, and often you can get a better idea about what spell choices you're likely to need over the day after the first encounter.
You can prepare 1/4 of your daily spell allotment in 15 minutes, which is a pretty good amount at mid-high levels.

Further there's options like Uncanny Forethought, Signature Spell, the druids spontaneous summoning, the Channel Charge feat, Spell Engine and other options that let you switch spells on the fly, so the only reason to end up "out of spells" because the only ones left are wrong for the situation is lack of knowledge on the players side.

[Grim Reader]

As mentioned with Precious Apprentice you can get into the Mystic Theurge as early as level 5. By level 14 you have effectively 11 Arcane and 13 divine spell casting.

That doesn't work either. Precocious Apprentice is a RAW workaround that doesn't work by RAW. When you get second level divine spells, you lose the ability to cast the arcane second level spell and gain a divine spell slot instead.

[Warrnan]

Shadowbane stalker is a fun mid tier build. With rogue1/cleric9/shadowbane stalker10, in which ever order makes the most sense, will net you 5d6+20 sneak attack with the craven feat. Able learner is a good plan to keep up with rogue skills.

This build also maintains 9th levels spells and a 17 CL. See if you can grab DMM persist or quicken and throw up divine power for +6 str and full base attack bonus. No one can complain about you using Dmm because you have taken on the two most annoying chores for a party: trapfinding and medic duty.

This way you can bring lots of utility to a party if you are missing some things. I've never played it but being LG and a rogue seems like a very interesting job. Hahaha

[Leon]

Its only a trap if your deathly afraid of losing some caster levels due to being a focused min-maxer. For your average player they all offer some interesting changes to what you can do with your character.

[Willie the Duck]

Its only a trap if your deathly afraid of losing some caster levels due to being a focused min-maxer. For your average player they all offer some interesting changes to what you can do with your character.

I'm not worried about losing some caster levels. I've tried over a number of threads on different topics to describe the place I want to capture for my games. It's below needing to compete with tier 1s or whatever, and above feeling like I'm unable to contribute to party success (that spot that straight fighters often feel they are, which is why we have the whole LWQW and tier level debates).

[OldTrees1]

I'm not worried about losing some caster levels. I've tried over a number of threads on different topics to describe the place I want to capture for my games. It's below needing to compete with tier 1s or whatever, and above feeling like I'm unable to contribute to party success (that spot that straight fighters often feel they are, which is why we have the whole LWQW and tier level debates).

Ah. Often such can be described as Tier 1-3. With that goal, most multiclass PrCs are not traps, even noncaster/noncaster PrCs.

Scarlet Corsair is a nice Martial/Rogue one IMHO.

[Chronos]

Quoth Snowbluff:

DFA are pretty much worse straight classed than warlock, actually. High level Warlocks are unbroken artificers.
Only if you stay in the base class and don't prestige out of it, though. The bigger difference between Warlock and Dragonfire Adept for Anima Mage is that you can follow up with Hellfire Warlock. Naberius for healing the Con damage was why you wanted Binder in your Warlock build to begin with, right?