[3.5] Easy and cheap ways to self-generate alchemical flasks?

[Zaq]

Relying on mundane consumables like alchemical items (acid, alchemist's fire, and the more exotic stuff in later sourcebooks) and poison is, of course, expensive, and it's arguably more expensive than it's worth. Still, the character archetype exists for a reason—there's definitely a certain appeal to it.

Most of us know by now that the easiest way to get cheap/free access to poisons is to take ranks in Craft: Poisonmaking and get access to Psionic Minor Creation (usually meaning a dip in Shaper or in Ardent with the right mantle, taking the feat Hidden Talent, or taking Expanded Knowledge if you already happen to have manifesting). Is there a similar way to (cheaply or with no GP cost) self-generate alchemical flasks like acid and alchemist's fire? Sure, each individual flask isn't THAT expensive, but it certainly adds up if you like playing the "mad bomber" style of character who relies on flasks as their primary weapon. The crafting rules are no real help here unless you've got some kind of method of drastically reducing the amount of time it takes (the way PMC does for poisons).

I mean, ideally you'd have enough money to buy enough that you don't have to think about it anymore, but that's far from guaranteed at many levels of play, and you still have to have the GM agree to have someplace available to buy them should you need to restock, which is why it would obviously be better to be able to be able to generate them from your own resources.

Are there any lowish-level spells/powers/other tricks to help you generate alchemical flasks? If you've got access to 3rd level Sor/Wiz spells, I know about Water to Acid from Stormwrack, but I'm wondering if there's anything that would help you generate things other than just acid. (I looked at using Energy Substitution on Water to Acid, but that wouldn't work unless you either convince your GM that [Water] is an energy descriptor or if you use Snowcasting to hack [Cold] onto it, which takes extra feats and requires that you have access to snow. Though that last option would be fun if you have the feat space for it.) Of course, if you've got access to 3rd level Sor/Wiz spells, you've probably got enough magic that you don't really need to be hurling around alchemical flasks, so it would be even better if we could find something available for a feat or a small dip. There's certainly no one right way to play this kind of character, but I generally think of a flask-thrower as being more of a skillful Rogue-type than a primary caster, you know?

I do know about the PF Alchemist and their bombs, but I'm looking for solutions from pure 3.5 if possible. Is there anything else out there that can help a "mad alchemist" style of character self-generate the flasks they love to hurl?

[noob]

Energy substitution sound for an orb of acid(which have a given diameter and so you can calculate the volume) for having noisy acid(that is mundane once the spell is cast) that you put inside of a bottle.
Which is much better than fire damage
Now the GM slaps you for "Creative use of orb of acid which is the most broken spell ever"
you can also use lesser orb of acid

[Troacctid]

Well, they're weapons, so you can call them with the Call Weaponry power. Short duration, but it works, yeah?

Fire Seeds creates similar splash weapons, but it's a 6th level spell, so that might be somewhat prohibitive.

[Zaq]

Energy substitution sound for an orb of acid(which have a given diameter and so you can calculate the volume) for having noisy acid(that is mundane once the spell is cast) that you put inside of a bottle.
Which is much better than fire damage
Now the GM slaps you for "Creative use of orb of acid which is the most broken spell ever"
you can also use lesser orb of acid

First you have to convince your GM that the acid stays in a form that can be collected in a flask. I'm not talking about whether or not the acid still exists (I know very well how instantaneous conjurations work), but it'd be hard to argue that it stays in a form that can be poured into a flask. If it stays in orb form, then you can't very well bottle it because it's apparently sufficiently solid to hold its own shape (meaning you'd have to handle it directly, both prompting questions about whether it still does its normal damage once the instantaneous damage is dealt and prompting questions about how you avoid being damaged by it when you pick it up, not to mention that it has no listed range increment). If it doesn't stay in orb form, then you have to find a way to scoop up a quantity of liquid that was just violently propelled against some kind of solid target (whether that was a creature or a wall or an object). Liquids under those circumstances don't tend to be easy to collect—try throwing a water balloon against a wall and then collecting the water into a flask. (And that's water, not acid—acid would be harder to collect, especially if it's sufficiently volatile that it'll still do damage when you throw the flask against someone.) I don't think it's especially viable.


Well, they're weapons, so you can call them with the Call Weaponry power. Short duration, but it works, yeah?

Fire Seeds creates similar splash weapons, but it's a 6th level spell, so that might be somewhat prohibitive.

One PP and one round for creating one flask (that has to be used within 1 min/level) doesn't seem like a great solution for all-day use. You'll have to have some lead time to prepare them, which isn't something we really want to rely on (how often do we ridicule builds who seem to assume that they'll have several buff rounds at the start of every fight?).

If you have a GM willing to play fast and loose with the RAW, you could argue that summoning a gnome calculus would also conjure 3d6 flasks, but the strict RAW don't support that (Call Weaponry specifies that projectile weapons come with "bolts, arrows, or sling bullets, as appropriate," not an open-ended "whatever ammunition is appropriate").

So Call Weaponry is better than nothing, but I don't think it's really sufficient to rely on it as a primary source of flasks.

[noob]

Find a metal immune to sound(I believe that exists) and make of it a large cauldron with a 10 centimeters large opening.
Cast the spell through the opening onto the bottom of the cauldron.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Self crafted alchemical items are pretty affordable at most levels. A Unseen Crafter in a Bag of Holding with an alchemy lab can replenish your supply while you sleep/adventure/whatever, and it's not that expensive to set up and doesn't require much skill investment since they can take 10 and benefit from your casting stat.

[Jowgen]

My suggestion for sourcing bottles:

Prestidigitation can create small objects (I think that means light weapon size...) that are fragile and artificial looking, but said objects do last indefinitely. It seems that for the purposes of storing liquids and then later on breaking, those might well suffice. Said objects do not dissipate after an hour afaik.

[Grod_The_Giant]

For reference, here's a calculation of how much WBL you can afford to spend on consumables per encounter (assuming the standard 13/level) without falling behind, based on the table on DMG 54:



Lv
Consumables per encounter


1st
7.692307692


2nd
15.38461538


3rd
23


4th
30.69230769


5th
102.4615385


6th
51.15384615


7th
51.15384615


8th
179.3076923


9th
153.5384615


10th
179.1538462


11th
230.3076923


12th
819.9230769


13th
255.6153846


14th
511.7692308


15th
1024.230769


16th
1023.846154


17th
1536.153846


18th
1279.076923


19th
1791


Crafted acid flasks become affordable around 5th, I think. I'm not sure how much the equation changes if you're not spending money on a primary weapon, though.

[Zaq]

Find a metal immune to sound(I believe that exists) and make of it a large cauldron with a 10 centimeters large opening.
Cast the spell through the opening onto the bottom of the cauldron.

That still relies on a GM ruling that (Lesser) Orb of Whatever stays potent after dealing its initial damage, and in order for this to be better than just casting the orb as an offensive spell, the GM has to agree that you get enough flasks out of it to outweigh the effectiveness of using the spell as intended. Possible, but very far from guaranteed.

On the plus side, if you have a GM who's willing to go along with this, you don't need to muck around with Energy Substitution. (Lesser) Orb of Fire/Cold/Electricity/Sound already say "as (Lesser) Orb of Acid, but." So they already create acid that just happens to do a different damage type.


Self crafted alchemical items are pretty affordable at most levels. A Unseen Crafter in a Bag of Holding with an alchemy lab can replenish your supply while you sleep/adventure/whatever, and it's not that expensive to set up and doesn't require much skill investment since they can take 10 and benefit from your casting stat.

I don't recall what book Unseen Crafter is from. Is that different from a Dedicated Wright?


My suggestion for sourcing bottles:

Prestidigitation can create small objects (I think that means light weapon size...) that are fragile and artificial looking, but said objects do last indefinitely. It seems that for the purposes of storing liquids and then later on breaking, those might well suffice. Said objects do not dissipate after an hour afaik.

Not 100% convinced of that. You're pretty much relying on "the rules don't say this doesn't work the way I want." I understand that it says that it grants you the ability to perform magical tricks for one hour, and I understand that the clause at the end about "actual changes" only lasting one hour specifies changes rather than creations, but there's nothing saying that the small items you create would last longer than the spell duration. There's no general rule that would allow an item created by a spell to last longer than the spell's duration if the spell doesn't specify otherwise, you know? I am aware of the specific part of the [Summoning] subschool that says that summoned objects aren't sent back at the end of the spell unless the spell says so, but that is, of course, specific to [Summoning] spells, which Prestidigitation is not.

Even if the items do persist after 1 hour, the spell explicitly says they can't be used as "tools or weapons," which is kind of exactly what we're trying to do. (Splash weapons are unusual weapons, but they still have "weapon" in the name, and declaring them not to be weapons breaks some other things. And if they aren't weapons, they're definitely tools.)


For reference, here's a calculation of how much WBL you can afford to spend on consumables per encounter (assuming the standard 13/level) without falling behind, based on the table on DMG 54:



Lv
Consumables per encounter


1st
7.692307692


2nd
15.38461538


3rd
23


4th
30.69230769


5th
102.4615385


6th
51.15384615


7th
51.15384615


8th
179.3076923


9th
153.5384615


10th
179.1538462


11th
230.3076923


12th
819.9230769


13th
255.6153846


14th
511.7692308


15th
1024.230769


16th
1023.846154


17th
1536.153846


18th
1279.076923


19th
1791


Crafted acid flasks become affordable around 5th, I think. I'm not sure how much the equation changes if you're not spending money on a primary weapon, though.

What's the unit on that table? GP? It's possibly quite a useful table, though I don't know if it directly solves the problem (again, crafting using the Craft rules takes way the hell too long if you don't have some way of getting around the time component, and of course I've never had a GM who sticks close enough to the RAW WBL table for me to really want to trust in this sort of thing).

[noob]

That still relies on a GM ruling that (Lesser) Orb of Whatever stays potent after dealing its initial damage, and in order for this to be better than just casting the orb as an offensive spell, the GM has to agree that you get enough flasks out of it to outweigh the effectiveness of using the spell as intended. Possible, but very far from guaranteed.
You can do iterative attacks + sneak attack(On many people even if they have true sight thanks to some spells like improved blinking) + Skirmish (you surely got a way to do three meters placement steps it also can progress with each level in rogue together with your sneak attack thanks to a feat)
Also using the spell as intended is done in battle while using it in your down time to help you throwing flasks in battle is done outside of battle and gives you a reliable attack for fights.
Lesser orb of acid is level 1 and makes a sphere of two inches of diameter(or radius)
The damage of this sphere is 1d8 at level 1
If you have the high level version on a magic item it is even better.
For the level 4 version at will it costs 72000 GC and GM rudisplork tolerance
the level one version costs CL*2000(so for a cl 1 version 2000 GC and for reaching the damage cap 18000 GC)

Acid needs to react to loose its efficiency
So if you did the thing I explained while in a vacuum it could work.
Then you fill tightly seal-able bottles while in the vacuum and here are the thrown weapons you are going to use.

[Vizzerdrix]

I want to say I saw a feat that gives you an expense pool for crafted alchemicals each level. It may have been in unearthed arcana, or dmg 2.

Either way, acid is only a few gold per flask when self crafted, and will see you through the first few levels. I also want to say egg sheĺl grenades are inexpensive, but may be remembering them wrong.

[Zaq]

You can do iterative attacks + sneak attack(On many people even if they have true sight thanks to some spells like improved blinking) + Skirmish (you surely got a way to do three meters placement steps it also can progress with each level in rogue together with your sneak attack thanks to a feat)
Also using the spell as intended is done in battle while using it in your down time to help you throwing flasks in battle is done outside of battle and gives you a reliable attack for fights.
Lesser orb of acid is level 1 and makes a sphere of two inches of diameter(or radius)
The damage of this sphere is 1d8 at level 1
If you have the high level version on a magic item it is even better.
For the level 4 version at will it costs 72000 GC and GM rudisplork tolerance
the level one version costs CL*2000(so for a cl 1 version 2000 GC and for reaching the damage cap 18000 GC)

Acid needs to react to loose its efficiency
So if you did the thing I explained while in a vacuum it could work.
Then you fill tightly seal-able bottles while in the vacuum and here are the thrown weapons you are going to use.

We've reached a point where this line of thinking is no longer helpful. It relies far too much on the GM going along with things. (Where the hell are you getting a vacuum anyway?) And it's fine to have the GM go along with things, but when it requires this much GM cooperation, it's no longer helpful to discuss the RAW (and/or the weird gaps in the RAW, which is basically where we are now), since you should just talk with your GM to see what he or she is willing to do to accommodate your character concept. I don't have a specific game in which to play this character, so I don't have a GM to discuss things with. So for the purposes of what I'm talking about here, I want methods that require less GM tolerance/adjudication. You've come up with a clever enough concept that could conceivably start a fun discussion with a GM, but it's not what I'm after, so it's not helpful to keep pushing it here.

If you have other ideas to add, I'm totally open to hearing them. That's the whole point of this thread. But you're not going to help me by continuing to push for turning (Lesser) Orbs of Whatever into bottleable acid.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What's the unit on that table? GP? It's possibly quite a useful table, though I don't know if it directly solves the problem (again, crafting using the Craft rules takes way the hell too long if you don't have some way of getting around the time component, and of course I've never had a GM who sticks close enough to the RAW WBL table for me to really want to trust in this sort of thing).
GP, yeah, sorry. WBL shouldn't be too sticky, I don't think, as you wouldn't have to buy a proper weapon. Or accuracy boosting stuff at all, ready, thanks to all those touch attacks. (Rapid Shot + TWF + Whirling Frenzy? Don't mind if I do!) And as for the crafting...

If I understand the rules correctly (not guaranteed), you can make two acid flasks a week with a DC 15 check, six a week with DC 25, and twelve with a DC 35. (Some variation for beating the DCs, but not much). Unseen Crafter is a 2nd level spell that crafts for one day/level for you, using your modifier. Say you take the minimum three wizard levels and specialize for, oh, 3 spells/day. 3 days duration is enough for each crafter to make a single flask, or three if you can reliably hit DC 28 (shouldn't be too hard). If that's all you use the slots for, you can be getting nine flasks a day, perpetually. That's not bad.

At higher levels, of course, Fabricate should sidestep all production time issues.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If I understand the rules correctly (not guaranteed), you can make two acid flasks a week with a DC 15 check, six a week with DC 25, and twelve with a DC 35. (Some variation for beating the DCs, but not much). Unseen Crafter is a 2nd level spell that crafts for one day/level for you, using your modifier. Say you take the minimum three wizard levels and specialize for, oh, 3 spells/day. 3 days duration is enough for each crafter to make a single flask, or three if you're hitting DC 25 (shouldn't be too hard). If that's all you use the slots for, you can be getting nine flasks a day, perpetually. That's not bad.

Weeks in D&D are actually ten days long, so you'll need CL 5 for your Unseen Crafter to make a flask with a single casting at DC 15.
Since they use your skill ranks + ability mod and can take 10 hitting DC 25 isn't actually that hard though. If you need more flasks more quickly you can just cast the spell several times in a row since there isn't really a limitation besides your spell slots, and a Bag of Holding doesn't have space limitations, just weight.

If you're serious about alchemy the Alchemist Savant PrC (MoE) lets you craft 10x faster at level 1. Since it also progresses casting it's not a bad choice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Weeks in D&D are actually ten days long, so you'll need CL 5 for your Unseen Crafter to make a flask with a single casting at DC 15.
Since they use your skill ranks + ability mod and can take 10 hitting DC 25 isn't actually that hard though. If you need more flasks more quickly you can just cast the spell several times in a row since there isn't really a limitation besides your spell slots, and a Bag of Holding doesn't have space limitations, just weight.

If you're serious about alchemy the Alchemist Savant PrC (MoE) lets you craft 10x faster at level 1. Since it also progresses casting it's not a bad choice.
I talked about the repeated use thing, but I've never heard about ten day weeks. Where does it specify that?

Alchemist Savant is pretty excellent for these purposes, though it requires a bunch of casting to access. Still, if you do that should be more than enough to start pumping out flasks left and right. The second level might also be worth taking, but I wouldn't go any farther, I don't think.

Now that I look at it, Greater Dragonmark (Mark of Making) is three feats and level 9, but gives you Fabricate 1/day without any class investment. Or hell, anyone want to try and calculate how many flasks of acid they could get out of a single Fabricate scroll? (By my math, assuming a flask takes one pint (as the flask of oil) you can get 5000 flasks with a single level 9 casting. Around 26,000 gold for 5000 flasks-- better stock up on extradimensional storage)

[Vizzerdrix]

The 10 day week thing is faerun.

What about things like black sand? You could toss vials of that. And some molds in the dmg can be cultivated as well.

[ericgrau]

Relying on mundane consumables like alchemical items (acid, alchemist's fire, and the more exotic stuff in later sourcebooks) and poison is, of course, expensive, and it's arguably more expensive than it's worth.
Eh, not really, D&D is brief. People worry too much about the long term. If you can afford a few then you're good for a while. I mean you can buy a +1 to AC or a lifetime supply of a variety of alchemical items. Even the cost of one feat or 1 level to try to get around it is 10 times worse. They're actually extremely cheap.

It would be true that they're a money pit if you had to keep expending them day after day for a year but actually an entire campaign has about 30 minutes of encounters in it. And even half of that is filler.

Some poisons are worth cheesing around, but then even 1 dose is expensive. It's not even a matter of repeated use.

[Fizban]

Nice one point from Vizzerdrix: Brown Mold is so easy to grow you literally just throw fire at it, so if you can find a way to collect and throw it you're good. Nothing in the rules for it though, entirely possible that if you scrape it into a bottle it just dies immediately.

Black Sand pretty definitively states that any touch causes 1d4/round so if you find some it's all-you-can-bottle time for the unseen servants. While Slumber Sand implies that it must be alchemically crafted to be useable, Liquid Salt has no craft DC and can also just be bottled. As for finding them in-game, obviously you'd need to get to a waste environment and explore, which can be aided by use of the right hirelings and spells. Not a particularly low-level solution and you could just spam Water to Acid instead, but Liquid Salt is quite nasty and Black Sand is reusable.

Planar Handbook also has Red Tidewater, a non-crafted harvestable blinding flask, but you'd need planar travel. It's actually quite cheap to buy at 25gp but Eggshell Grenades will still beat it with their OP no save blinder (but hey if we're going that far might as well just Aboleth Mucus to victory).

Ericgrau isn't wrong about the cost. No one ever complains about buying a 1st level wand: Acid costs less than a 1st level wand charge, Alchemist's fire is reasonable considering it can last multiple rounds, and the other energy types are. . . well they're overpriced but worth having vs fire/acid resist. The problem is when you try to get more dice and they start charging hundreds of gold: Scorching Ray is 4d6 for 90gp, but Liquid Salt is priced at 200gp for 2d8 (still more than twice the cost even if 2d8 desiccation=4d6 fire), and Liquid Embers are 600gp for all of 3-6d6. Looking at the PHB prices it seems clear to me that wand charges are the actual balance point, but apparently none of the other writers ever got the memo. You haven't mentioned anything regarding damage output, just acquisition, in which case the latter point doesn't matter.

Even if you're getting the flasks for free storage is at a premium with a Bag of Holding or Handy Haversack costing nearly as much as whatever method you're using to generate "free" flasks. While I wouldn't want to depend on treasure distribution, Grod's table seems to make it clear that the only level you're really gonna have a chance of beating a wand or even just buying a non-magical bag of flasks is gonna be starting at level 2 with a Drow House Amulet (Unseen Servant) next to a pool of Liquid Salt/patch of Black Sand and a cart full of glass flasks-and he's using a conservative estimate. Most levels will not be 13 encounters unless your DM pads things out with chaff, since major and boss encounters will be higher level and reduce the number of fights.

[unseenmage]

Create Water plus Water to Acid (Stormwrack I think) generates a net gain even after accounting for the purchase of either flasks or barrels. Or its just a fun way to make lots of Acid very very efficiently.

I like putting them on a Spellsong Nightingale (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) and using the proceeds to pay for recharging it.