Help solidifying a character concept

[Mongobear]

In a few months, our group is going to be doing a "soft reset" of the campaign world. Meaning, we are going to pause the main group, and rerolling with a new party a few levels behind ourselves right now, getting a different vantage point of the world from a different country/continent and eventually meeting up with or randomly encountering the first group to work together towards the final goal.

I have a concept in my head around what I want to do, but I dont quite know how it wuld work out in the long run.

I want to make some sort of spellcaster/melee hybrid Gish centered around a Bladelock/Eldritch Knight multiclass, or if that combo isnt exactly functional, just straight Bladelock.

I dont really know any specifics yet as far as how exactly we are doing creation outside of we will be starting at ~12th level, because we probably wont be done with the current parties main missions until level 15 or so. As far as stats/starting gear/etc, assume that we have the means to meet any outlandish multiclassing requirements, and have appropriate gear for that level or play.

Is there any kind of trick or other cross-class synergy that works together more functionally than intended? I am already aware of the RAW Warlock spell slot recharging, but what about other minor synergies or little combo's with each class's features? Or even a good breakpoint for the two classes if going multiclassed is actually worth it. Right now I dont know of any good breakpoints the classes share, other than ASI's from the Fighter and neither class really shares a common point to stop progression, so at best I can see a 2-4 level dip in either being the most beneficial, avoiding Fighter 5 altogether since Thirsting Blade gives extra attack anyways.

[Sigreid]

I did just this with my latest. Start fighter, take cb expert and it's really good.

[Corran]

Generally speaking, an EK is pretty much what you want from a gish. So a 12th level EK, who coincidentaly is one level away from 3rd level spells (cough** haste) is a simple and good choice for a melee gish. You can always dip a few levels in warlock for some invocations and some short rest rechargable spell slots, though this way you would be pushing away you higher level EK features. Bonus points for EKs, since you will have 3 attacks at that point. Rolling more times the dice is fun!

If you want to go with a heavy warlock build, melee warlocks work best of you start as a fighter (for proficiencies), and then you probably want a couple more levels (a second level for action surge most definitely, and perhaps a 3rd level for the subclass).

A fun build I was considering recently, would be fighter2/ rogue2/ feylock7 with another level in fighter for battlemaster maneuvres, or one more level in rogue for assassinate. Main idea is to use greater invisibility (or darkness assuming you grab devil's sight invocation) along with cunning action for being able to hide as a bonus action when in darkness or invisible, and with the -5/+10 from the GWM feat since you have advantage (if you take a 3rd level in fighter, precision strike works well with that; if you take a 3rd level in rogue, for assassinate, GWM will guarantee a bonus action attack, so with hex, 3 attacks with greatsword, and possibly maneuvres dice after you finally take your 3rd fighter level at character level 13, would give you a decent surprise round, and you have spells like invisibility, aler self, and hex, that all work well with an assassin). Not the most optimal build, but I like it and I think it will be fun.

Paladins are also great gishes, especially at 12 level, when you will have IDS nd you will be only one level away from 4th level spells. Pick an oath and have a blast! Paladins are seriously awesome!

[Mongobear]

I did just this with my latest. Start fighter, take cb expert and it's really good.

crossbow expert? while that idea doesnt sound to terrible, and might work, I was originally planning a melee build, probably with Finesse weapons so I cut down on the MADness. I honestly dont even know if I will have enugh ASIs for any Feats unless I go Variant Human or go for more Fighter levels than Warlock. I am kinda planning this idea around something along the lines of a BB/GFB build, ubt if there is an alternative, I will consider it.

[Sigreid]

I'm targeting ek 8 bl 12. That gives action surge, second wind, thirsting blade and that ek ability that lets you melee attack in the same round you eb.

[Mongobear]

If you want to go with a heavy warlock build, melee warlocks work best of you start as a fighter (for proficiencies), and then you probably want a couple more levels (a second level for action surge most definitely, and perhaps a 3rd level for the subclass).

This is pretty much what I am aiming for, I just figured a Melee Bladelock fit the bill for a Gish. If I were to dip Fighter as you mentioned, is it even worth going EK? If I go Fighter 3(EK), because of the multiclassing rules, I will only ever get 1/3rd my Fighter levels in spell slots, so level 1. Which I pretty much will just save for the sake of maybe using weaker versions of my Warlock spells.

I almost want to say Champion(for extra crit range) or Battle Master(because battle master) is more fitting, just because their features dont get penalized from multi-classing. I honestly dont even think Fighter 3 is worth it if I go for the Warlock heavy build, Bladelock 18/Fighter 2 looks pretty tasty, other than Warlock 18 being a dead level. Maybe Bladelock 17/Fighter 3 just to avoid a dead level.

[Corran]

I am kinda planning this idea around something along the lines of a BB/GFB build, ubt if there is an alternative, I will consider it.
To make the best of BB/GFB, you must have a plan about triggering their secondary effect.

And while in the case of GFB there is not much you can do (it will rely mostly on how your DM plays the monsters and how he has them position themselves), you can plan around using BB in various ways.

The best and cheapest way to ensure that the secondary effect of BB kicks in, is if you hit and run. That can be easily done either by mobile (notice that it limits you against only opponents that you actively tried to hit during your turn), or cunning action (rogue 2, a popular dip) which has no such limitations, but consumes your bonus action. Now, it will depend a lot on your build to see with which one of these two ways you will be better off, though your biggest concern is another one, regarding this idea of making the most out of BB. And that is, party composition. Does your party needs you to be the tank? Then you ccannot hit and run, tanks dont hit and run. Will the party have a lot of melee characters? If so you will be limited into attacking mostly enemies that are not adjacent to your allies, as in that case they wont move during their turns, so the secondary damage of BB will not kick in. As you see, there are many parameters.

A most reliable but more expensive way to make the most out of BB, is if you take warcaster, spell sniper and polearm master. This way, you can use BB at everything that enters your reach (10 feet), and the secondary effect will kick in if they keep moving (they will have to move another 5 feet in order to hit you). You just found a way to make the most out of your reactions! You paid for it with 3 feats though, which are useful feats in general, especially if you are a gish. Maybe take mobile as your 4th feat (assuming variant human) for extra shenanigans.

For GFB, have someone (preferably a tavern brawler rogue thief) throw flasks of oil at the enemy you are about to hit, and enjoy the extra damage from the burning oil (it's something like 5 per round they are hit with fire).


This is pretty much what I am aiming for, I just figured a Melee Bladelock fit the bill for a Gish. If I were to dip Fighter as you mentioned, is it even worth going EK? If I go Fighter 3(EK), because of the multiclassing rules, I will only ever get 1/3rd my Fighter levels in spell slots, so level 1. Which I pretty much will just save for the sake of maybe using weaker versions of my Warlock spells.

I almost want to say Champion(for extra crit range) or Battle Master(because battle master) is more fitting, just because their features dont get penalized from multi-classing. I honestly dont even think Fighter 3 is worth it if I go for the Warlock heavy build, Bladelock 18/Fighter 2 looks pretty tasty, other than Warlock 18 being a dead level. Maybe Bladelock 17/Fighter 3 just to avoid a dead level.
Starting as a fighter sets you up with con save proficiency, good starting hit points, but most importantly, heavy armor proficiency. You will want a str build, preferably using a greatsword and the GWM feat. In this case, a 3rd level in battlemaster is worth it imo, as trip attack and precision strike can help you a lot with landing those heavy hits. I would say having all those 3 fighter levels (assuming battemaster and GWM) when starting at level 12.

I dont think the other fighter archtypes offer something of significance to a heavy warlcok build, and keep in mind that pact magic from warlcok does not play well with spellcasting (that you would have if you took a 3rd level in fighter - EK).

If you do not go with a heavy weapon and GWM for some reason, then maybe stick with 2 levels of fighter, taking eventualy a 3rd level at some point (or diping 1 level in some other class), because as you so rightly said, level 18 is a dead warlock level.

Fighter2-3/ warlocksX, generally work better with GWM heavy armor and a greatsword/maul imo.
For BB/GFB stuff, maybe a S&B EK would do the trick. Or an ancients paladin (assuming halfelf or a feat that nets you BB - spell sniper or magic initiate).

[Mongobear]

To make the best of BB/GFB, you must have a plan about triggering their secondary effect.

And while in the case of GFB there is not much you can do (it will rely mostly on how your DM plays the monsters and how he has them position themselves), you can plan around using BB in various ways.

-snip-


This is the part that I cant account for, as I am the only person really bothering to think ahead. I just like to be ready. If I cannot rely on the party to make BB/GFB functional, what do I do with my Warlock spell slots? I assume just buff myself to be pseudo-tanky or a killing machine? I have never dealt with magic in 5e before, my first character is a Barbarian, and I havent looked too much into each classes spell lists beyond the Warlock stuff since this came up.



Starting as a fighter sets you up with con save proficiency, good starting hit points, but most importantly, heavy armor proficiency. You will want a str build, preferably using a greatsword and the GWM feat. In this case, a 3rd level in battlemaster is worth it imo, as trip attack and precision strike can help you a lot with landing those heavy hits. I would say having all those 3 fighter levels (assuming battemaster and GWM) when starting at level 12.

This I was actually surprised by, I was planning a Finesse build, backed by the "infinite Mage Armor" Invocation, but now that I look at it, Dex or Strength is pretty much an easy swap, since one wont matter at all depending on which way I focus. I just figured Dex would be better for Saves, AC, and Initiative. I didn't even think of combining this with GWM + Battle Master shennanigans.

[ZenBear]

Just go straight EK or straight Bladelock. The only reason to dip Fighter is if you're going STR for armor prof. Otherwise DEX Bladelocks work fine as a pure class. Maybe dip Rogue 2 for Cunning Action shenanigans. Multiclassing EK/Bladelock just doesn't have any synergy.

[Corran]

This is the part that I cant account for, as I am the only person really bothering to think ahead. I just like to be ready. If I cannot rely on the party to make BB/GFB functional, what do I do with my Warlock spell slots? I assume just buff myself to be pseudo-tanky or a killing machine? I have never dealt with magic in 5e before, my first character is a Barbarian, and I havent looked too much into each classes spell lists beyond the Warlock stuff since this came up.Hex (notice how casting upcasting hex lasts for several hours and preserves your valuable spell slots, that means you wont use another concetration in between encounters), armor of agathys, mirror image (doesnt work that great with low dex builds that receive a lot of attacks, as you will be), darkness (assuming devil's sight), greater invisibility (if feylock), fire shield (if fiendlock) and eventually foresight, are all great buffs for combat. But you can also use your spell slots in other effective ways too, like banishment, hold monster, hold person (with 5 level slots that targets 4 people), fireball (fiendlock), etc. Not too familiar with warlocks, so perhaps you should have a look at one of the warlock guides, I am sure you will be able to find many useful suggestions there, if you indeed decide on playing a heavy warlock build.

ps: Fiendlocks work better as gishes, due to their expanded spell list and their features (especially the temp hp thing).




This I was actually surprised by, I was planning a Finesse build, backed by the "infinite Mage Armor" Invocation, but now that I look at it, Dex or Strength is pretty much an easy swap, since one wont matter at all depending on which way I focus. I just figured Dex would be better for Saves, AC, and Initiative. I didn't even think of combining this with GWM + Battle Master shennanigans.A dex build generally works better with S&B and possibly cantrips instead of using extra attack, and ofc medium and eventually light armor (when you raise dex enough). An EK or even a bladesinger would probably fit a finesse melee gish better than a fighter/warlock, as fighter/warlocks tend to do better with GWM. GWM just adds too much damage if you can set it up right.

ps: Bladesinger might be a bit to much caster-y for what you have in mind.

[Mongobear]

Just go straight EK or straight Bladelock. The only reason to dip Fighter is if you're going STR for armor prof. Otherwise DEX Bladelocks work fine as a pure class. Maybe dip Rogue 2 for Cunning Action shenanigans. Multiclassing EK/Bladelock just doesn't have any synergy.

Thats what I am pretty much coming to a conclusion of, so I am trying to find a dip or two for a heavy Warlock build that would work, as 18-20 Warlock is pretty much useless. I have 3 levels to dip with.

[Sir cryosin]

My next character is going to be a warrior who hates magic user's but he is a favored soul sorcerer. I think a favored soul sorcerer is my ideal gish if builded right.

[Corran]

Thats what I am pretty much coming to a conclusion of, so I am trying to find a dip or two for a heavy Warlock build that would work, as 18-20 Warlock is pretty much useless. I have 3 levels to dip with.
If you want to play as a skirmisher (hit and run), dip 2 levels in rogue and choose archfey for warlock patron. Cunning action disengage and BB is nice, as is darkness + devil's sight + cunning action hide + BB + move away without provoking an OA because the enemy does not see you, and now he does not know even your location if your stealth (expertise) won his passive perception, and he most likely has to move (assuming no adjacent ally, but you can easily pick targets that have no allies of yours adjacent to them since you can move freely as OAs cannot target you) the secondary effect of BB will kick in. Go feylock as the class features mesh really well with a skirmisher cunning build, and so does greater invisibility (essentially replicates what you can do with darkness, what I described above, but it is more partly friendly, and is more difficult to counterspell).

If you want damage dealer, go with greatsword/maul and GWM feat, str build obviously, start as fighter, take fiend as your patron, and at 12th level it would be best if you had 3 levels in fighter (battlemaster), but I already talked about that.

[Mongobear]

If you want to play as a skirmisher (hit and run), dip 2 levels in rogue and choose archfey for warlock patron. Cunning action disengage and BB is nice, as is darkness + devil's sight + cunning action hide + BB + move away without provoking an OA because the enemy does not see you, and now he does not know even your location if your stealth (expertise) won his passive perception, and he most likely has to move (assuming no adjacent ally, but you can easily pick targets that have no allies of yours adjacent to them since you can move freely as OAs cannot target you) the secondary effect of BB will kick in. Go feylock as the class features mesh really well with a skirmisher cunning build, and so does greater invisibility (essentially replicates what you can do with darkness, what I described above, but it is more partly friendly, and is more difficult to counterspell).

If you want damage dealer, go with greatsword/maul and GWM feat, str build obviously, start as fighter, take fiend as your patron, and at 12th level it would be best if you had 3 levels in fighter (battlemaster), but I already talked about that.

I think I am going to try the Skirmisher/Rogue build, just because I had already kinda sold myself on a Finesse build. But, I had a question on it. Since I am going to be popping out of invisibility and/or using Greater Invis at higher levels, would going into Rogue 3 for Assassin be worth it?

[bid]

If you EK 5+, don't bother with bladelock. You gain nothing.

SAD gish is EK 5 / tomelock 3: shillelagh, baby!
Half-elf 10 14 16 10 10 16 with medium armor and almost 10 hp per level.
With BB and warcaster, you can tank 2 mobs (attack + OA).

[Corran]

I think I am going to try the Skirmisher/Rogue build, just because I had already kinda sold myself on a Finesse build. But, I had a question on it. Since I am going to be popping out of invisibility and/or using Greater Invis at higher levels, would going into Rogue 3 for Assassin be worth it?
Not really, no. Unless you also throw 2-3 fighter levels as well. And you have to go with GWM and greatsword for the extra bonus attack it gives you on crits. Assassin3/ battlemaster3/ warlock X, for 5 attacks on crits (action surge, plus extra attack from GWM), all hexed up, and maneuvres dice with precision strike to turn misses into hits. With a dex build and a finesse weapon you will not make enough out of your surprise rounds.

Fiendlocks make good assassins with their level 6 feature that adds to initiative, and with spells like hex, invisibility, scrying, etherealness, etc, though you need a greatsword and GWM to deal enough damage on your surprise round.

[Mongobear]

Random question about the invocations. If they have a listed requirement of "Xth level" does that mean Warlock level or character level? Example, Lifedrinker requires 12th level and Pact of the Blade would I meet that right now with a Warlock 10/Rogue 2 build? Or do I need to wait until I am Warlock 12?

[CantigThimble]

Players handbook errata specifies that all invocations referencing level are referring to warlock level not character level.

[Corran]

Random question about the invocations. If they have a listed requirement of "Xth level" does that mean Warlock level or character level? Example, Lifedrinker requires 12th level and Pact of the Blade would I meet that right now with a Warlock 10/Rogue 2 build? Or do I need to wait until I am Warlock 12?
It is warlock level.

[Mongobear]

Damn, I might just go straight Warlock then, having Lifedrinker right away seems like too good of a feature to delay from multi-classing. And I may just completely change my target build to something more generic, since I wont be able to do any fancy multiclassing since levels come so slowly now, unless I wait and do them immediately once we start playing.