Thrown Weapon Eldritch Knight

[cobaltstarfire]

Ok, this probably isn't a very optimized idea, but it popped in my head last year sometime when I was reading up on the eldritch knight and it tickled me. Basically having a character that is bonded to two thrown weapons and just throws them in a circular throw/re summon/throw deal.

I've been wanting to actually try it out, though I still haven't really thought of any characters to go with the concept, what would the forums do to make the most effective thrown weapon specialist, and what kind of characters would you build to fit with it?

[CantigThimble]

The issue is that you can only summon one weapon per turn while you can make two attacks. So you would need to make one thrown attack and the rest melee. This could work if you were allowed to attack with a greatsword and then hold it in one hand while throwing an axe. Spellcasters can do something very similar where they perform somatic components with one hand while holding onto their two handed weapon with the other. If that wasn't allowed you could definitely do it with a versatile weapon and a thrown weapon, though you lose out on some damage there.

Edit: You would probably want mobile so you can avoid the melee penalty for ranged weapons.

[Foxhound438]

whip and dagger might work nicely, grab dueling style, throw dagger, whip with +2 damage, re-summon dagger. A lot less damage than handaxe and longsword, but cool still. Not sure it would be optimized as much as fun.

Edit: you could go rogue/EK3-4 and have sneak attack be your primary damage base.
Edit^2: probably swashbuckler so you can get SA damage for free and get out of melee without having to use your cunning action
Edit^3: bond with a dart so you can use archery style and sharpshooter with it for kicks
Edit^4: now doing this

[cobaltstarfire]

whip and dagger might work nicely, grab dueling style, throw dagger, whip with +2 damage, re-summon dagger. A lot less damage than handaxe and longsword, but cool still. Not sure it would be optimized as much as fun.

Edit: you could go rogue/EK3-4 and have sneak attack be your primary damage base.
Edit^2: probably swashbuckler so you can get SA damage for free and get out of melee without having to use your cunning action
Edit^3: bond with a dart so you can use archery style and sharpshooter with it for kicks
Edit^4: now doing this

I did want to build a kobold that used a whip sometime, it may be interesting to mix a whip with darts, seems very koboldy anyway.

I hope the idea turns out to be as entertaining to you as you hope. :D

One of my thoughts to bond with two weapons, is that you get two throws to start with, and then one throw per turn afterwords. I suppose with turn one being from a distance before moving in to more directly engage the enemy or something. It never even occurred to me to use sharp shooter with thrown weapons, that's a fun thing to keep in mind for future other ideas.

[CantigThimble]

Even with only one thrown weapon you can get two throws at the start. Throw, summon, throw again.

[cobaltstarfire]

Even with only one thrown weapon you can get two throws at the start. Throw, summon, throw again.

Yes, but you need two if you want to continue throwing two weapons per turn because you only get one bonus action per turn.

[CantigThimble]

Yes, but you need two if you want to continue throwing two weapons per turn because you only get one bonus action per turn.

But each bonus action can only summon one weapon, no matter how many you bond. So with two throwing weapons you can get two rounds before you run out of throwing weapons and then you're totally disarmed until next round.

[cobaltstarfire]

But each bonus action can only summon one weapon, no matter how many you bond. So with two throwing weapons you can get two rounds before you run out of throwing weapons and then you're totally disarmed until next round.

It's little wonder that everyone is talking about having an alternative melee weapon.

[djreynolds]

It has been said, thrown weapons are now ranged melee attacks and you "could" convince your DM to let thou smite with them. And as crazy as it sounds, paladin/eldritch knight are not a bad combo as you can use the EK slots to smite and spam the shield spell and grab two weapon style and con save prof if you select fighter first. And you get some much needed cantrips.

And there is nothing wrong with using two spears, versatile can be used two weapon, thrown, with a shield, can benefit from GWS and can be picked back up with the interact with object. Spears are still cool

[ZenBear]

Would you DMs allow an EK with a Versatile weapon the option of throwing a hand axe and attacking with a battle axe two-handed in the same Attack Action with Extra Attack or would that count as TWF?

[jkat718]

A player at my table does exactly this. I just houser used that he could both bind and summon two light weapons in place of a single non-light weapon.

[Sir cryosin]

Would you DMs allow an EK with a Versatile weapon the option of throwing a hand axe and attacking with a battle axe two-handed in the same Attack Action with Extra Attack or would that count as TWF?

Machinaly you can do that if you have a extra attack you can throw your hand axe and then attack with battle axe 2h and still get your attack mod for both

Buy if you only have one attack you can throw the hand axe as a bounes action and then attack but your not getting the att mod unless you have two style

[SharkForce]

It has been said, thrown weapons are now ranged melee attacks and you "could" convince your DM to let thou smite with them.

nope.

thrown weapons are ranged attacks made with melee weapons (well, with the exception of the dart, which is in fact a ranged weapon). they are not melee attacks at all.

and just to be clear, that also means that you can't use sharpshooter with regular thrown weapons, only the dart; the weapon used for sharpshooter must be a ranged weapon.

of course, in either case your DM is free to rule otherwise. but the official rules say no.

(and if your DM is that comfortable with making exceptions for thrown weapons, honestly i'd just ask if i could not have to jump through a million hoops just to be able to get more than one thrown weapon attack per round, because it is quite silly to be able to machine gun away with a crossbow no problem but not allow that sort of thing with throwing daggers).

[AstralFire]

I have a player who's a throwing-spear EK.

I told her she could get infinite throws with her bonded spear in return for a cantrip, I haven't really noticed an issue yet (we're around level 4 right now).

[CantigThimble]

I have a player who's a throwing-spear EK.

I told her she could get infinite throws with her bonded spear in return for a cantrip, I haven't really noticed an issue yet (we're around level 4 right now).

I don't think there really was ever an issue, it's just an odd interaction of the rules that prevents some exploits (like putting away a shield, attacking 2 handed with a longsword and pulling out the shield again) that unfortunately gimps throwing weapons. I don't really see any reason not to let throwing weapons work this way.

[JoeJ]

(and if your DM is that comfortable with making exceptions for thrown weapons, honestly i'd just ask if i could not have to jump through a million hoops just to be able to get more than one thrown weapon attack per round, because it is quite silly to be able to machine gun away with a crossbow no problem but not allow that sort of thing with throwing daggers).

Thrown weapons should have something like the ammunition property, where you can draw one for each throw. And maybe something about getting them back after the battle. I should think that a throwing axe would be less likely to break than an arrow, although if you miss and it flies off into a swamp it still might be gone forever (barring magic).

[cobaltstarfire]

I have a player who's a throwing-spear EK.

I told her she could get infinite throws with her bonded spear in return for a cantrip, I haven't really noticed an issue yet (we're around level 4 right now).

How do you think it'll play out once she gets a second attack at level 5.

My original idea was to do two mainhand throws, since an offhand throw would consume the bonus action to summon the weapon back.

I really like all the different thoughts and ideas you guys have posted here though, there's a lot of things I hadn't considered or simply forgotten some rules. I've got a clearer idea for a character to build anyway.

Was the swashbuckler ever released? I only remember seeing it in an unearthed arcana... Cause a trying to pull off a swashbuckling kobold dart throwing EK sounds entertaining, but I'd have to find a DM who'd let me do it first.

[jkat718]

Was the swashbuckler ever released? I only remember seeing it in an unearthed arcana... Cause a trying to pull off a swashbuckling kobold dart throwing EK sounds entertaining, but I'd have to find a DM who'd let me do it first.

Swashbuckler was released in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/sc-adventurers-guide).

EDIT: If you're planning on making a Swashbuckler as your backup character for "5th Edition low-level game," I'd let you try out a Kobold Eldritch Knight/Swashbuckler. We already have a Giant Fey Spider Shadow Monk, so it's not like that's any crazier. :smalltongue:

[djreynolds]

nope.

thrown weapons are ranged attacks made with melee weapons (well, with the exception of the dart, which is in fact a ranged weapon). they are not melee attacks at all.

and just to be clear, that also means that you can't use sharpshooter with regular thrown weapons, only the dart; the weapon used for sharpshooter must be a ranged weapon.

of course, in either case your DM is free to rule otherwise. but the official rules say no.

(and if your DM is that comfortable with making exceptions for thrown weapons, honestly i'd just ask if i could not have to jump through a million hoops just to be able to get more than one thrown weapon attack per round, because it is quite silly to be able to machine gun away with a crossbow no problem but not allow that sort of thing with throwing daggers).

Well that sucks

[Vogonjeltz]

It has been said, thrown weapons are now ranged melee attacks and you "could" convince your DM to let thou smite with them. And as crazy as it sounds, paladin/eldritch knight are not a bad combo as you can use the EK slots to smite and spam the shield spell and grab two weapon style and con save prof if you select fighter first. And you get some much needed cantrips.

And there is nothing wrong with using two spears, versatile can be used two weapon, thrown, with a shield, can benefit from GWS and can be picked back up with the interact with object. Spears are still cool

It has been said by whom?

Melee and Ranged are mutually exclusive categories. Thrown weapons can make either kind of attack, but if you're using it as a ranged weapon, it's a ranged weapon attack; and divine smite only works with melee weapon attacks (i.e. not ranged weapon attacks, nor melee or ranged spell attacks).

[AstralFire]

How do you think it'll play out once she gets a second attack at level 5.

It's a relatively short range weapon, so I think in practice, she'll just be an EK who's slightly less susceptible to opportunity attacks but will frequently be forced into melee range. Which is why I traded it for a cantrip; the main point of an offensive cantrip for an EK is to give them a medium range option during closing, imo. This has a shorter prime range, but she can do her main tricks with it.

[cobaltstarfire]

Swashbuckler was released in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/sc-adventurers-guide).

EDIT: If you're planning on making a Swashbuckler as your backup character for "5th Edition low-level game," I'd let you try out a Kobold Eldritch Knight/Swashbuckler. We already have a Giant Fey Spider Shadow Monk, so it's not like that's any crazier. :smalltongue:


I don't have the SCAG unfortunately (nor do I think $40+ really worth it cause I don't play in forgotten realms) so I probably won't get around to trying a swashbuckler out unless it's largely unchanged from the UA version.

I was thinking of making a more healer-ey/blasty type fey backup for our campaign since we're lacking healing and range, (though still weird on the race side, I found a fey touched on EN that would be interesting and fits my needs). I'll PM you later about that, I can't remember how we did character creation.

[AstralFire]

I don't have the SCAG unfortunately (nor do I think $40+ really worth it cause I don't play in forgotten realms) so I probably won't get around to trying a swashbuckler out unless it's largely unchanged from the UA version.

I was thinking of making a more healer-ey/blasty type fey backup for our campaign since we're lacking healing and range, (though still weird on the race side, I found a fey touched on EN that would be interesting and fits my needs). I'll PM you later about that, I can't remember how we did character creation.

It's largely unchanged.

[Foxhound438]

It has been said, thrown weapons are now ranged melee attacks and you "could" convince your DM to let thou smite with them. And as crazy as it sounds, paladin/eldritch knight are not a bad combo as you can use the EK slots to smite and spam the shield spell and grab two weapon style and con save prof if you select fighter first. And you get some much needed cantrips.

And there is nothing wrong with using two spears, versatile can be used two weapon, thrown, with a shield, can benefit from GWS and can be picked back up with the interact with object. Spears are still cool

it would be a ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon, which would not qualify as a melee weapon attack, sadly.

[coredump]

A 5th level EK with Dual Weilder could throw 5 dagger every 2 rounds; for most of those you could also get the +2 damage from Dueling fighting style.

Or you could throw 2 darts every round, and be able to use Archery and Sharpshooter.

You could combine dagger or dart attacks with Crossbow expert....but then you might as well just us the crossbow.

[choryukami]

Here is my idea for a thrown guy using weapon bond to reclaim his weapon (this came up when my group discussed throwing Tinderstrike, the legendary fire dagger or Windvane, the legendary finesse spear).

You can only resummons your weapon as a bonus action once per round. All you have to do is keep it to one attack per round. A lot of classes buff only one one attack (Ranger's Colossus Slayer, Cleric's Weapon Buffs, Rogue's Sneak Attack) but the rogue scales the best and it is a finesse weapon.

So you need 3 levels in Fighter (EK) for Weapon Bond. This also gives you shield proficiency, which a rogue can benefit from if it is only using a single weapon, and action surge, which is just awesome. It also gives you Dueling so you deal extra damage with one handed melee weapons, which a dagger still is, even if you throw it.

Many levels in rogue. This gives you sneak attack to max out your damage. I want to be able to always get sneak attack or to at the least, always hit for my one attack. Missing is BRUTAL. So with one of your fighter 1st level spells, pick Find Familiar and pick an owl, always have them use the help action. Either that or do arcane trickster and do the same thing. It is your choice whether you want magic utility or you want to take assassin and just go with straight damage.

Thrown discussion: ok, so you are able to stuff that says "melee weapon" when throwing. That is established by sage advice. Theoretically you can also use "ranged attack" things. You may or may not be able to use the +damage ability from sharpshooter, but you can definitely benefit from a huge range boost and negating cover from the other bullets, so you probably want to get sharpshooter.

Alternate discussion: You know what makes a great throwing master? A dwarf with a dwarven thrower. There's a cleric in my group last night who was dishing out pretty nice damage.

[Foxhound438]

dagger can't get the +10 damage from sharpshooter, but can get dueling style

dart can get +10 damage, can't get dueling, but does benefit from archery style, so you end up getting 8 more damage with 3 lower attack roll

Probably go 5 in fighter so you can throw twice, both with +10 damage, and whichever hits gets a pile of d6's thrown in.

that's my plan anyway.