Thug Overpowered?

[Rakoa]

I apologize if this is an old topic of discussion, but we lost half the party the other day to these "Thugs" and I am very, very confused. Over 30hp, 2 attacks per round? 4 of them are an even CR for a level 2 party? Is this real?

[Malifice]

I apologize if this is an old topic of discussion, but we lost half the party the other day to these "Thugs" and I am very, very confused. Over 30hp, 2 attacks per round? 4 of them are an even CR for a level 2 party? Is this real?

What do you mean 4 of them are an even CR for a level 2 party? I get the feeling you are adding CRs together to determine your encounter difficulty and thats not how it works. You need to read the DMG on how to build encounters mate - your PCs are still low level so its important you get that right now before continuing.

Thugs are CR 1/2 (100xp)

5 x 2nd level PCs have an encounter budget of:

Easy: 250 XP
Medium: 500 XP
Hard: 750 XP
Deadly: 1000 XP

4 x CR 1/2 Thugs have an adjusted difficulty value of [(100 XP each) x 2 for 4 of them)] = 800 XP, making them a 'Hard' encounter for 5 x 2nd level PCs.

They are a 'Deadly' encounter for 4 x 2nd level PCs.

They have an AC of 10 from memory and ****ty saves. They're raging barbarian GWM fodder.

[eastmabl]

I believe that the thug has AC 11, but you're right on every other point - especially CR.

[Malifice]

I believe that the thug has AC 11, but you're right on every other point - especially CR.

I look at a standard/ iconic 5 x PC party of 2nd level PCs (GWS/M greatsword Fighter in heavy armor, Halfling rogue, Dwarven Life cleric with hammer and shield, Elven wizard [key spells sleep, magic missile, shield, mage armor, firebolt] and a half elven Bard as the 5th wheel) and compare them to 4 Thugs. I can see why the encounter is 'hard' - but id still have my money on the PCs to destroy the four thugs inside of 4-5 rounds (losing HP, HD and spell slots/ action surge in the process). If the PCs were already injured or down on resources it could turn nasty quickly with some good/bad rolling.

[Slipperychicken]

It's a bit misleading, but low-level crooks are represented by "bandit". More badass criminals are represented with Thug and Veteran statblocks.

[endur]

I apologize if this is an old topic of discussion, but we lost half the party the other day to these "Thugs" and I am very, very confused. Over 30hp, 2 attacks per round? 4 of them are an even CR for a level 2 party? Is this real?

Same CR (1/2) as a lizardfolk. Same offense as a lizardfolk (2 attacks for 5 damage at +4). Lower AC (11 vs. 15) but more hp (32 vs 22). Lizardfolk has perception and stealth to aid in getting surprise. Thugs get advantage if they have a buddy.

On the other hand, Orcs are also CR 1/2. AC 13, Hp 15, 1 attack at +5 for 9 damage.

Hobgoblins are CR 1/2. AC 18, HP 11, 1 attack at +3 for 5 damage. +7 damage if the hobgoblin has a buddy.

I'd say the Thug is on the strong side of CR 1/2 and could easily be CR 1.

Per DMG,
Thug is CR 2 offense, CR 0 Defense, plus its special ability. Figure its special ability raises offensive CR to at least 3.
Lizardfolk is CR 2 offense, CR 1/4 Defense
Orc is CR 2 offense, CR 1/8 Defense
Hobgoblin is CR 1 offense, CR 1/2 Defense

[Malifice]

It's a bit misleading, but low-level crooks are represented by "bandit". More badass criminals are represented with Thug and Veteran statblocks.

Yeah, I'd use a Thug and a four bandits mooks to keep everyone engaged. Maybe give the Thug a maul for increased damage, and give two of the bandits crossbows.

Still; a greatsword swinging barbarian, paladin or fighter 2 should make short work of a thug. Rogue sneak attack + sleep should drop another.

Beats me on the morale of Thugs but after getting two mates dropped in a single round they other two might not want to stick around.

Youre in a bit of trouble if your tank goes down early. But between rage, second wind and lay on hands (and a cleric + bard in the party), they all have options to stay up an extra round or two.


Same CR (1/2) as a lizardfolk. Same offense as a lizardfolk (2 attacks for 5 damage at +4). Lower AC (11 vs. 15) but more hp (32 vs 22). Lizardfolk has perception and stealth to aid in getting surprise. Thugs get advantage if they have a buddy.

On the other hand, Orcs are also CR 1/2. AC 13, Hp 15, 1 attack at +5 for 9 damage.

Hobgoblins are CR 1/2. AC 18, HP 11, 1 attack at +3 for 5 damage. +7 damage if the hobgoblin has a buddy.

I'd say the Thug is on the strong side of CR 1/2 and could easily be CR 1.

Per DMG,
Thug is CR 2 offense, CR 0 Defense, plus its special ability. Figure its special ability raises offensive CR to at least 3.
Lizardfolk is CR 2 offense, CR 1/4 Defense
Orc is CR 2 offense, CR 1/8 Defense
Hobgoblin is CR 1 offense, CR 1/2 Defense

The problem with Orcs is they have that orc ferocity ability to charge as a bonus action and deal high damage meaning on a good initative roll they can be all over you and drop a few PCs before you know what next.

Hobgobins pack quite a punch too, particularly in numbers. They can quite easily one shot a 2nd level PC.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Well, it typically takes a few tries before WotC can get their monsters correct in each edition.

Hopefully we will get a Monster Vault or Monster Manual 2 that fixes the CR system because I don't even think WotC knows how to use it.

[Malifice]

Hopefully we will get a Monster Vault or Monster Manual 2 that fixes the CR system because I don't even think WotC knows how to use it.

Dude, the CR system is fine.

Again; in your campaign your DM lets you nova encounters which blows the encounter/ CR system out the water (as well as class balance).

Thats a problem with your DM and not the system.

[MaxWilson]

I'd say the Thug is on the strong side of CR 1/2 and could easily be CR 1.

Per DMG,
Thug is CR 2 offense, CR 0 Defense, plus its special ability. Figure its special ability raises offensive CR to at least 3.

Defensive CR: 1/8 based on HP, lowered to 0 for being AC 11 instead of 13.
Offensive CR: 1 based on damage/round, increased to 2 for being +5 to-hit instead of +3. (+4 to-hit, +1 effective to-hit for Pack Tactics.)

Therefore, Thugs should be CR 1 by DMG rules despite being CR 1/2 in the MM. They are overpowered for their CR, the same way that Goblins are.

(Goblins are CR 1/4 in the MM but either CR 3 or CR 1 by DMG rules, depending how you interpret the DMG's directions on "add one to defensive CR per +2 points of AC". If you treat it as +1, then they are offensive CR 2.125 and defensive CR 3.125, total CR 3 after rounding. If you treat it as "shift to the next-higher category" then they are only offensive CR 1/2 and defensive CR 1, total CR 1.)

[Malifice]

Defensive CR: 1/8 based on HP, lowered to 0 for being AC 11 instead of 13.
Offensive CR: 1 based on damage/round, increased to 2 for being +5 to-hit instead of +3. (+4 to-hit, +1 effective to-hit for Pack Tactics.)

Therefore, Thugs should be CR 1 by DMG rules despite being CR 1/2 in the MM. They are overpowered for their CR, the same way that Goblins are.

(Goblins are CR 1/4 in the MM but either CR 3 or CR 1 by DMG rules, depending how you interpret the DMG's directions on "add one to defensive CR per +2 points of AC". If you treat it as +1, then they are offensive CR 2.125 and defensive CR 3.125, total CR 3 after rounding. If you treat it as "shift to the next-higher category" then they are only offensive CR 1/2 and defensive CR 1, total CR 1.)

These are guidelines and not rules you realise?

[PoeticDwarf]

These are guidelines and not rules you realise?

True. Goblins are pretty strong minions, but the guidelines aren't always right.

About thugs, if the party is smart they can take these down. Thugs are like barbarians. Only hard if you don't know how to deal with it

[Malifice]

True. Goblins are pretty strong minions, but the guidelines aren't always right.

About thugs, if the party is smart they can take these down. Thugs are like barbarians. Only hard if you don't know how to deal with it

Theyre on the high end of CR 1/2 for sure, but theyre not brokenly good.

I find them best to use as 'leaders' or 'heavies' along with a bunch of bandits or similar.

Or to represent a harder kobold or goblin. Just describe it as a bigger Goblin and your players wont know the difference.


I apologize if this is an old topic of discussion, but we lost half the party the other day to these "Thugs" and I am very, very confused. Over 30hp, 2 attacks per round? 4 of them are an even CR for a level 2 party? Is this real?

Are you the DM in this group?

[SharkForce]

Defensive CR: 1/8 based on HP, lowered to 0 for being AC 11 instead of 13.
Offensive CR: 1 based on damage/round, increased to 2 for being +5 to-hit instead of +3. (+4 to-hit, +1 effective to-hit for Pack Tactics.)

Therefore, Thugs should be CR 1 by DMG rules despite being CR 1/2 in the MM. They are overpowered for their CR, the same way that Goblins are.

(Goblins are CR 1/4 in the MM but either CR 3 or CR 1 by DMG rules, depending how you interpret the DMG's directions on "add one to defensive CR per +2 points of AC". If you treat it as +1, then they are offensive CR 2.125 and defensive CR 3.125, total CR 3 after rounding. If you treat it as "shift to the next-higher category" then they are only offensive CR 1/2 and defensive CR 1, total CR 1.)

best guess based on other monsters is that you move by categories, not numbers.

so, for example, if you have OCR of 1 and DCR of 0, the CR is not 1/2 (that being the numeric average) but rather CR 1/4 (because it's 2 categories up from 0; 0--> 1/8 --> 1/4, and 2 categories down from 1; 1 --> 1/2 --> 1/4).

likewise with the +1 CR things; based on the results, you have to presume +1 CR actually means +1 category when you're in the sub-1 range, otherwise almost nothing with a low CR has remotely close to the right values.

now, of course, it would have been awfully nice if they had actually *mentioned* that key piece of information at some point, since it really changes how things look at the lower end of the CR spectrum. but they didn't.

[MaxWilson]

best guess based on other monsters is that you move by categories, not numbers.

so, for example, if you have OCR of 1 and DCR of 0, the CR is not 1/2 (that being the numeric average) but rather CR 1/4 (because it's 2 categories up from 0; 0--> 1/8 --> 1/4, and 2 categories down from 1; 1 --> 1/2 --> 1/4).

likewise with the +1 CR things; based on the results, you have to presume +1 CR actually means +1 category when you're in the sub-1 range, otherwise almost nothing with a low CR has remotely close to the right values.

now, of course, it would have been awfully nice if they had actually *mentioned* that key piece of information at some point, since it really changes how things look at the lower end of the CR spectrum. but they didn't.

Yeah, good point. I agree, especially with the bolded part. :)

[Rakoa]

Are you the DM in this group?

No, I'm not. I'm one of the lucky players that survived the encounter, the other one I barely managed to stabilize. I made this post because I was worried that CRs were broken, but it looks like she just wasn't balancing encounters properly...and also the Thug might be a bit of a tough enemy. I'll talk to her about it later.

[MaxWilson]

No, I'm not. I'm one of the lucky players that survived the encounter, the other one I barely managed to stabilize. I made this post because I was worried that CRs were broken, but it looks like she just wasn't balancing encounters properly...and also the Thug might be a bit of a tough enemy. I'll talk to her about it later.

If you run into a similar situation again, take partial cover and kill the Thugs from range. They have only half as many ranged attacks as melee attacks, and they won't get Pack Tactics, and even if they take partial cover too they'll only have AC 16 so you can kill them to death quite effectively.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Dude, the CR system is fine.

Again; in your campaign your DM lets you nova encounters which blows the encounter/ CR system out the water (as well as class balance).

Thats a problem with your DM and not the system.
No it is not.

The CR system is borked all to hell, just look at different monsters of the same CR and tell me they equal each other. It is all over the place.

I like how you assume you know my DM and my games, very funny, but sorry you don't know anything about them.

Running straight by the book the game is either steamrolled or we get steam rolled. We have steamrolled what should be "deadly" encounters and yet get spanked with normal encounters.

Side note, I'm starting to wonder how many people actually play the game compared to how many just own the books and pretend they play the game for fake internet points or fake internet prestige.

[ad_hoc]

No it is not.

The CR system is borked all to hell, just look at different monsters of the same CR and tell me they equal each other. It is all over the place.

I like how you assume you know my DM and my games, very funny, but sorry you don't know anything about them.

Running straight by the book the game is either steamrolled or we get steam rolled. We have steamrolled what should be "deadly" encounters and yet get spanked with normal encounters.

Side note, I'm starting to wonder how many people actually play the game compared to how many just own the books and pretend they play the game for fake internet points or fake internet prestige.

I play the game by the book and CR works just fine.

I have heard from many others that it works fine in their games as well.

It doesn't, apparently, work well in your game. The system is not right for your game or your game is not right for the system, but either way, that doesn't mean that it isn't right for other people, the majority of people, and their games.

[pwykersotz]

I play the game by the book and CR works just fine.

I have heard from many others that it works fine in their games as well.

It doesn't, apparently, work well in your game. The system is not right for your game or your game is not right for the system, but either way, that doesn't mean that it isn't right for other people, the majority of people, and their games.

I agree, the CR system is a fine guideline. It works very well for me. It is by its nature limited in what it measures though. If your game necessitates including other factors because of player skill, monster proliferation, or other reasons though, I wholeheartedly advise adjusting as needed.

[MeeposFire]

I agree, the CR system is a fine guideline. It works very well for me. It is by its nature limited in what it measures though. If your game necessitates including other factors because of player skill, monster proliferation, or other reasons though, I wholeheartedly advise adjusting as needed.

I think if you ask the designers they would say the same. The CR system is supposed to be a base to start with but it will need to be adjusted to fit your game depending on many factors. For instance there are many official optional rules and if you use them they can change the game enough in some cases where you might need to keep it in mind when making encounters.

[Sitri]

In every game I have played outside of organized play, the CR system is just a way to help the DM feel out where to go to challenge the party.

Since every party is unique* what is a good challenge is going to vary quite a bit from party to party. Treating it like a gospel mathematical formula seems to me like a lot of effort to reduce your ability to find a sweet spot for your group.



*There are a lot less options for uniqueness currently, so perhaps not as big of an issue.

[Addaran]

We just fought thugs last night. Four lvl 1 characters vs 3 thugs and 4 cultist i think? (lvl 1 cleric)
They are very strong indeed. They fought strategicaly, but the DM fudged a bit their decisions to not murder us.

[Malifice]

We just fought thugs last night. Four lvl 1 characters vs 3 thugs and 4 cultist i think? (lvl 1 cleric)
They are very strong indeed. They fought strategicaly, but the DM fudged a bit their decisions to not murder us.

Christ. Speak to your DM. 3 CR 1/2s and 4 CR 1/4s vs 4 level 1 PCs?

That's a quintuple deadly fight that is a guaranteed TPK.

[MaxWilson]

We just fought thugs last night. Four lvl 1 characters vs 3 thugs and 4 cultist i think? (lvl 1 cleric)
They are very strong indeed. They fought strategicaly, but the DM fudged a bit their decisions to not murder us.

Whoa. That's an extremely tough scenario. Sounds like fun. Congratulations on surviving.

[Addaran]

Haha yeah. He said it was an impossible(that's one of the rank right?) fight i think? But followed the budget? It was really stressfull but an amazing fight all-in-all.

Thinking about it, he might not have calculated the modifier for them being in the same group? Where is the rule exactly again? I'll have to check it out. I've been playing for a while with 5ed and the DM played once, but none of us DMed yet, so we're a little we're a little rusty with some rules and the DM parts of stuff.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I play the game by the book and CR works just fine.

I have heard from many others that it works fine in their games as well.

It doesn't, apparently, work well in your game. The system is not right for your game or your game is not right for the system, but either way, that doesn't mean that it isn't right for other people, the majority of people, and their games.

I hear sometimes it works fine on the internet but not once has a person told me it works fine in person.

Not once has anyone, in person, told me that it works fine or that they think it couldn't be fixed. This is coming from both bad and good DMs that I've met in AL and away from AL.

It works fine if you tweak the he'll out of it and micromanage everything but then you aren't really using the system.

I'm glad that some people have found it to work for them, but the CR system needs to be fixed. I see way to many DMs having to fix the system on the fly when they should be able to just go by the book.

[MaxWilson]

Haha yeah. He said it was an impossible(that's one of the rank right?) fight i think? But followed the budget? It was really stressfull but an amazing fight all-in-all.

Thinking about it, he might not have calculated the modifier for them being in the same group? Where is the rule exactly again? I'll have to check it out. I've been playing for a while with 5ed and the DM played once, but none of us DMed yet, so we're a little we're a little rusty with some rules and the DM parts of stuff.

Instead of quoting the rule to you I'm going to point you to something even better: an automated tool which will use the rule to calculate things for you. http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

Plug in four Cultists, a Cult Fanatic for the priest, and two Thugs against four level 1 PCs and see what you get.

[pwykersotz]

Instead of quoting the rule to you I'm going to point you to something even better: an automated tool which will use the rule to calculate things for you. http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

Plug in four Cultists, a Cult Fanatic for the priest, and two Thugs against four level 1 PCs and see what you get.

Bah, well within your own encounter boundaries of 8x Deadly. :smalltongue:

[Addaran]

Instead of quoting the rule to you I'm going to point you to something even better: an automated tool which will use the rule to calculate things for you. http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

Plug in four Cultists, a Cult Fanatic for the priest, and two Thugs against four level 1 PCs and see what you get.

Thanls! Can't seem to find normal cultist on the site though...

And it was 0 cultist and 4 cult fanatic for that fight. =P They used bless, bane and some cure wounds (when he read inflict wound, he saw it was too overkill)

They were strategic (the bless one getting cover, everyone maneuvering for the thug to have advantage) but they targetted the toughest first in the party to leave a chance.

[MaxWilson]

Bah, well within your own encounter boundaries of 8x Deadly. :smalltongue:

Yes, as I said, this sounds like a fun and challenging scenario, not a boringly easy one. :)

[Christian]

No it is not.

The CR system is borked all to hell, just look at different monsters of the same CR and tell me they equal each other. It is all over the place.

I like how you assume you know my DM and my games, very funny, but sorry you don't know anything about them.

Running straight by the book the game is either steamrolled or we get steam rolled. We have steamrolled what should be "deadly" encounters and yet get spanked with normal encounters.

Side note, I'm starting to wonder how many people actually play the game compared to how many just own the books and pretend they play the game for fake internet points or fake internet prestige.

I hear sometimes it works fine on the internet but not once has a person told me it works fine in person.

Not once has anyone, in person, told me that it works fine or that they think it couldn't be fixed. This is coming from both bad and good DMs that I've met in AL and away from AL.

It works fine if you tweak the he'll out of it and micromanage everything but then you aren't really using the system.

I'm glad that some people have found it to work for them, but the CR system needs to be fixed. I see way to many DMs having to fix the system on the fly when they should be able to just go by the book.

I guess you caught us, SoM. The only people who actually play D&D5 are you and people you've met. All of us strangers on the 'net are WOTC employees or their shills, engaged in a massive disinformation campaign to convince you that we enjoy playing the game as designed.

:smallconfused:

[Clistenes]

True. Goblins are pretty strong minions, but the guidelines aren't always right.

About thugs, if the party is smart they can take these down. Thugs are like barbarians. Only hard if you don't know how to deal with it

I find it funny that the average Goblin is twice as dangerous as your average Guard or Bandit. Normal humans are ******* in 5th edition.

[JackPhoenix]

I find it funny that the average Goblin is twice as dangerous as your average Guard or Bandit. Normal humans are ******* in 5th edition.

Normal humans are commoners...at least in 5e, they can win the fight with a housecat

[Arkhios]

If you're having difficulties in determining an encounter for your group, there's this useful tool to help you out:
http://tools.goblinist.com/5enc
select the levels of your group's characters, add the correct amount of characters. Then, if you have an idea of a seed creature (=something you definitely want in to that specific encounter), search for it, select, and choose environment and difficulty you're looking for.
Next, calculate!

With this calculator we can see that 3 thugs is well within medium challenge for a group of 4 at 3rd level each.

Or, 3 Thugs and 3 Mastiffs for 4 level 2 character's would be Deadly. 4 Thugs for the same group would be over the scale deadly.
The ingenuity of the calculator is that it won't even suggest a combination that would be impossible to survive.

[pwykersotz]

If you're having difficulties in determining an encounter for your group, there's this useful tool to help you out:
http://tools.goblinist.com/5enc
select the levels of your group's characters, add the correct amount of characters. Then, if you have an idea of a seed creature (=something you definitely want in to that specific encounter), search for it, select, and choose environment and difficulty you're looking for.
Next, calculate!

With this calculator we can see that 3 thugs is well within medium challenge for a group of 4 at 3rd level each.

Or, 3 Thugs and 3 Mastiffs for 4 level 2 character's would be Deadly. 4 Thugs for the same group would be over the scale deadly.
The ingenuity of the calculator is that it won't even suggest a combination that would be impossible to survive.

That's a neat generator. Thank you for the resource. :smallsmile:

[MaxWilson]

I guess you caught us, SoM. The only people who actually play D&D5 are you and people you've met. All of us strangers on the 'net are WOTC employees or their shills, engaged in a massive disinformation campaign to convince you that we enjoy playing the game as designed.

:smallconfused:

Speak for yourself. I'm actually a bot, written by a dog.

[Clistenes]

Normal humans are commoners...at least in 5e, they can win the fight with a housecat

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

[pwykersotz]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

Because we are just too pretty. Look at this chisled jaw. :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

Traditional response is similar to orcs and other traditionally evil humanoids in that they often war with each other and rarely get along in large groups. Often they have a "might makes right" mentality so when a ruler is vulnerable they get taken out, probably sparking a short civil war, and they have to build up all over again.

Also outside of warcraft and similar worlds where goblins are good with technology they are often not very advanced and so humans often have an advantage (also in tactics in most worlds).

[Slipperychicken]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

Yeah, it almost seems like humanity needs heroes. In a game about adventurers fighting monsters to protect humanity. Who'd have thought?

[JackPhoenix]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

Because by the time humans first set foot on Khorvaire, goblinoid empire was long since broken by Daelkyr invasion (should've listened to those orcs...), and the disorganised, scattered remains were easily defeated and enslaved by the newcomers. Still, it lasted ten times longer then anything humans have managed, and Darguun is rising to reclaim the land that belongs to goblinoids...

Or at least, that's Eberron's answer.

[JoeJ]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

The CR for Guard appears to be an error. Calculated by the DMG method, it should be 1/4, not 1/8.

Compared to goblins, guards are have better armor and are tougher (11 hp vs. 7), but don't do quite as much damage. The MM entry for guard doesn't have any missile weapons, but if they're up on the walls defending the city, it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't have a bow or crossbow.

[Malifice]

The CR for Guard appears to be an error. Calculated by the DMG method, it should be 1/4, not 1/8.

Compared to goblins, guards are have better armor and are tougher (11 hp vs. 7), but don't do quite as much damage. The MM entry for guard doesn't have any missile weapons, but if they're up on the walls defending the city, it's hard to imagine why they wouldn't have a bow or crossbow.

Pseudo cunning action on the Goblins is a pretty potent ability; both offensive (advantage) and defensive.

[Flashy]

The CR for Guard appears to be an error. Calculated by the DMG method, it should be 1/4, not 1/8.

Yeah, can confirm that they're under CRed. Last session I handed the PCs a small squad of guards and put them up against a group of refluffed MM bandits. The guards were more than a match for the bandits on a 1:1 basis.

[JoeJ]

Pseudo cunning action on the Goblins is a pretty potent ability; both offensive (advantage) and defensive.

In a dungeon corridor or an ambush in the woods, yes. Attacking the city walls, not so much.

[MaxWilson]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

Because humans rely on high-level (N)PCs to protect them, moreso than Guards.

Also, humans can light torches/bonfires, and operate in large groups, and do other things that neutralize the individual combat superiority of a typical goblin. If goblins try to operate in large groups in return, they get nuked by human wizards/high-level fighters.

Anthropic Principle applies too: above suggestions assume PC intervention. In worlds where the PCs lose, humans all die and the world becomes goblin-centric, and the campaign ends or morphs into a different kind of campaign.

Edit: in other words, what slipperychicken said.


In a dungeon corridor or an ambush in the woods, yes. Attacking the city walls, not so much.

Attacking a guard outpost or the city walls at night, however, it's pretty good, especially considering that goblins have +6 to Stealth. Humans will need to invest a lot of resources in keeping the area around the walls well-lit, which might mean that they need to send out heavily-armored patrols of fire-tenders when a bonfire looks like it's starting to die down. The play/counterplay/interplay of human/goblin warfare would be fascinating.

[Clistenes]

Yeah, it almost seems like humanity needs heroes. In a game about adventurers fighting monsters to protect humanity. Who'd have thought?

Adventurers can't be everywhere. If each settlement had their own set of adventurers as protectors, the adventurers would be the Guards.

So, who protects the peasants until the PCs arrive? And who protects them while the PCs are hunting Manticores or whatever?

[Arkhios]

Adventurers can't be everywhere. If each settlement had their own set of adventurers as protectors, the adventurers would be the Guards.

So, who protects the peasants until the PCs arrive? And who protects them while the PCs are hunting Manticores or whatever?

Peasants hide, of course. :P

[eastmabl]

You know, if Goblins breed like rabbits, grow twice as fast as humans, they are as intelligent as your average dude, and every one of them is twice as dangerous as a trained soldier/guard...how come they haven't wiped Humanity already?

Town and city walls are quite effective at keeping out four foot tall invaders until the army arrives.

[MaxWilson]

Adventurers can't be everywhere. If each settlement had their own set of adventurers as protectors, the adventurers would be the Guards.

So, who protects the peasants until the PCs arrive? And who protects them while the PCs are hunting Manticores or whatever?

Guards can beat goblins as long as there's enough guards and not that many goblins.

When there's a lot of goblins, PCs are needed.

Think of PCs as air support or artillery. They still need and use infantry (guards), but if the infantry hit something they can't handle, they pull back and let the artillery take it out.

[Slipperychicken]

So, who protects the peasants until the PCs arrive?

Things usually aren't going so well by the time the PCs show up. There's a reason why the PCs can always find work killing monsters.


Of course, it's not just Guard statblocks protecting people. Among the NPC statblocks in the MM are knights, veterans, scouts, acolytes, priests, druids, and mages. Knights and veterans are CR 3, and mages are CR 6. The NPCs aren't totally helpless, but they need whatever help they can get from PC-classed people.

[Douche]

Thug Life.