Polemic question about raising the dead

[Lorde]

Let say there is really a spell able to generate a "evil, free willed" undead.

Assuming the original being wasn't evil, how can he still be free willed?

Do this works as some sort of resurrection, binding the soul to the body? Or the deceased can be resurrected by more proper ways later since his soul is intact?

[squidthingy]

could of been meant to be contradicting as a joke??

[Lemur]

There is such a spell that does so.

For the record, there are ways to change someone's alignment, and let them keep their free will. In fact, a person's alignment shouldn't change if they're not acting under free will. If you're being magically compelled to do something, it doesn't (necessarily) reflect your inner self.

An intelligent, free willed undead of someone who was non-evil in life would simply be an evil reflection of his/her former self. Whatever made him non-evil would be gone, instead that area would be filled with malice and a hatred for all living things.

But don't worry, that won't happen to Roy or Miko. Because Roy and Miko are gonna be used to make a Miko-Roy combination flesh golem!

[kirbsys]

But don't worry, that won't happen to Roy or Miko. Because Roy and Miko are gonna be used to make a Miko-Roy combination flesh golem!

YEAH!!
Now thats the kind of thinking I like to hear.

[David Demola]

Roy and Miko are gonna be used to make a Miko-Roy combination flesh golem!

Ew. Sexual reference FTL.

...

oh...wait...that's a real thing...

uh...

~Dave

[Jefepato]

Let say there is really a spell able to generate a "evil, free willed" undead.

Assuming the original being wasn't evil, how can he still be free willed?

Because the new being is 1) evil, and 2) not under the caster's control.

I don't see the problem.

[Lemur]

Ew. Sexual reference FTL.

...

oh...wait...that's a real thing...

uh...


Maybe it's both! Who knows?

[Zaragon]

Let say there is really a spell able to generate a "evil, free willed" undead.

Assuming the original being wasn't evil, how can he still be free willed?

My guess is because the undead creature is powered by negative energy, which in 3.X seems to have a corrupting, warping influence on a creature's morality and outlook. They're still free-willed, in that they can choose what they do, but they aren't nice people any more, and they might choose to do some really not nice things.

It's the same way if the necromancer simply kills the person, of course. It's doubtful they would have thought, "Hey, today's a nice day to die", so in that respect the necromancer robs them of their free will temporarily when he kills them. However, after he's dead, that doesn't mean that the resulting ghost doesn't have free will.

[Corwin Weber]

Ew. Sexual reference FTL.

...

oh...wait...that's a real thing...

uh...

~Dave

Does give a whole new layer of meaning to the term 'beast with two backs....'

[Green Bean]

Just for informational purposes this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) is the lowest level spell that creates intelligent undead. It requires a level 11 arcane or divine caster at the very least. Xykon probably has access to the next level of spell, which allows him to create intelligent undead that are much more powerful.

Anyways, to answer the original poster's question, intelligent undead are evil even when free of the caster's control. It's best to think of the spells as calling down a malevolent evil spirit into the person's body; the original person doesn't have to be evil, but whatever's using the body is.

[Jaws'n'Paws]

In fact, it only requires level 6 caster, check the description.

[Parasocrates]

In fact, it only requires level 6 caster, check the description.

I think you're looking at the level of the spell. That's not the same as the minimum required class level of the caster. An eleventh-level wizard is able to cast up to sixth-level spells.

[SteveMB]

Assuming the original being wasn't evil, how can he still be free willed?
I suppose it could be an effect like a Helm of Opposite Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm):



...On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG). Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook....

[Branco]

If Tsutsiko is actually able to create intelligent undead then she has to be at least a mystic theurge level which would put her level at 14 (wiz3/cle3/mysth8).

However, being able to cast level 6 spells (and therefore intelligent undead) would also render her able to cast harm as her highest negative energy spell.

This occurance is only explainable by the following theories:

-Tsutsiko lied to Xykon

-Tsutsiko just got carried away by her imagination and is actually not able to cast level 6 spells

-as the mechanics for creating undead in the OOTS-universe have proven to be radically different from the original ones, this may be another difference

[Jaws'n'Paws]

I think you're looking at the level of the spell. That's not the same as the minimum required class level of the caster. An eleventh-level wizard is able to cast up to sixth-level spells.

Whoops, error. You're right.

[evileeyore]

If Tsutsiko is actually able to create intelligent undead then she has to be at least a mystic theurge level which would put her level at 14 (wiz3/cle3/mysth8).

However, being able to cast level 6 spells (and therefore intelligent undead) would also render her able to cast harm as her highest negative energy spell.

This occurance is only explainable by the following theories:

-Tsutsiko lied to Xykon

-Tsutsiko just got carried away by her imagination and is actually not able to cast level 6 spells

-as the mechanics for creating undead in the OOTS-universe have proven to be radically different from the original ones, this may be another differenceOr try this one... Inflict Critical Wounds is a 6th level spelll. Harm is a 6th level spell. Harm must be prepped. Inflicts may be spontaneously channeled.

Spontaneously channeled for the win.

[Branco]

Or try this one... Inflict Critical Wounds is a 6th level spelll. Harm is a 6th level spell. Harm must be prepped. Inflicts may be spontaneously channeled.

Spontaneously channeled for the win.

I did not consider your alternative because you based it on a false premise...namely that Inflict Critical Wounds is a lvl 6 spell.

It is in fact a level 4 spell: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictCriticalWounds.htm

[evileeyore]

I did not consider your alternative because you based it on a false premise...namely that Inflict Critical Wounds is a lvl 6 spell.

It is in fact a level 4 spell: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictCriticalWounds.htmOMG! U totally zinged me!1!!

If only you were quick witted enough to notice the 6th level Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass and put me really in my place!

Or come to make the giant mental leap and just say, "Yo, Inf Crit is only fourth, but hell's yeah, you could totally Spontaneuosly Channel a lesser Inflict/Cure in a higher level slot."


Because, you know, you can. :wink:

Or not. Your choice.

[Lord_Butters_I]

The free will is not the will of the original being. The original inhabitent of the body used is usually not even aware that its physical remains are used for necromancy, and the animating spirit is one pulled from the Negitive Energy Plane.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If Tsutsiko is actually able to create intelligent undead then she has to be at least a mystic theurge level which would put her level at 14 (wiz3/cle3/mysth8).

However, being able to cast level 6 spells (and therefore intelligent undead) would also render her able to cast harm as her highest negative energy spell.

This occurance is only explainable by the following theories:

-Tsutsiko lied to Xykon

-Tsutsiko just got carried away by her imagination and is actually not able to cast level 6 spells

-as the mechanics for creating undead in the OOTS-universe have proven to be radically different from the original ones, this may be another difference

Tsukiko is probably about 14th level since its the level of the Order of the Stick. She's a minor challange for a party compared to Redcloak, Miko or Xykon but I doubt Xykon would have bothered with her if she was weaker than the PCs.

[Corwin Weber]

The free will is not the will of the original being. The original inhabitent of the body used is usually not even aware that its physical remains are used for necromancy, and the animating spirit is one pulled from the Negitive Energy Plane.

For mindless undead I'm pretty sure you're right.... but if that were the case why would anyone bother raising their enemies as free willed undead?

For that matter why would it matter, (as in the case of a death knight) what their alignment was before their deaths, or what they'd done?

It's only a punishment if their spirit is dragged back into the body.

[SPoD]

For mindless undead I'm pretty sure you're right.... but if that were the case why would anyone bother raising their enemies as free willed undead?

Because as it turns out, the free-willed varieties are much, MUCH more powerful than the mindless ones. Free-willed undead = spectres, vampires, liches, death knights, etc., while mindless undead = skeletons and zombies.

Also, if you're an evil cleric trying to increase the amount of evilness in the world, and you have a limited number of undead that you can personally control, you might raise up a bunch of free-willed undead and turn them loose to wreak havoc on the world without you having to micromanage every little thing they do.


For that matter why would it matter, (as in the case of a death knight) what their alignment was before their deaths, or what they'd done?

It's only a punishment if their spirit is dragged back into the body.

I'm not sure I understand this question. For free-willed undead, their spirit IS dragged back to their body, then warped by negative energy and turned evil. That's why you can't resurrect someone who has been turned into undead until after you destroy the undead creature, because you need to free their soul first.

[Corwin Weber]

Because as it turns out, the free-willed varieties are much, MUCH more powerful than the mindless ones. Free-willed undead = spectres, vampires, liches, death knights, etc., while mindless undead = skeletons and zombies.

Also, if you're an evil cleric trying to increase the amount of evilness in the world, and you have a limited number of undead that you can personally control, you might raise up a bunch of free-willed undead and turn them loose to wreak havoc on the world without you having to micromanage every little thing they do.



I'm not sure I understand this question. For free-willed undead, their spirit IS dragged back to their body, then warped by negative energy and turned evil. That's why you can't resurrect someone who has been turned into undead until after you destroy the undead creature, because you need to free their soul first.

Right, but the post I was replying to was saying that all undead are created by conjuring up some random negative energy spirit to inhabit the body.....

[Fighteer]

Right, but the post I was replying to was saying that all undead are created by conjuring up some random negative energy spirit to inhabit the body.....
This question is slightly debatable, because I've seen it described in various contradictory ways even in the D&D source material. Basically, you have two possibilities:

1) Free-willed undead do in fact contain the soul of the being they were created from, but warped and twisted in such a way as to be evil and malevolent regardless of its original alignment.

2) Free-willed undead contain a powerful spirit from the Negative Energy Plane that has access not only to the creature's physical abilities, but also to all of its thoughts, memories, and emotions.

In some cases (such as liches, who become undead voluntarily), the answer is obvious, but in either case, resurrection is impossible as long as the physical body (or its spiritual remains in the case of incorporeal undead) is under the control of a hostile or unwilling entity. There is also the question of atonement, especially in the case of a paladin or priest who commits evil acts while undead but is later destroyed and resurrected.