Bane vs. DR

[legomaster00156]

Ok, so if a weapon is +X, it bypasses DR regardless of whether it normally would: +3 bypasses cold iron/silver, +4 also bypasses alignment, and +5 even bypasses adamantine. Let's say we have a +1 weapon of normal make. It wouldn't bypass a demon's DR/cold iron. But what if it was +1 demon-bane? It would then act as a +3 weapon against demons. Does this include bypassing DR/cold iron? And if the DR was instead DR/cold iron and good, does a +2 demon-bane weapon bypass that?

[Felyndiira]

I can't find it at the moment, but there was a Paizo FAQ that ruled that both Bane and Furious (as well as anything else that increases weapon enhancements) counts toward bypassing DR. The only reason GMW and GMF doesn't is because the spells specifically say so.

EDIT:


And if the DR was instead DR/cold iron and good, does a +2 demon-bane weapon bypass that?
You would need a +3 demon-bane weapon to bypass that, since DR/alignment requires +5.

[Florian]

Ok, so if a weapon is +X, it bypasses DR regardless of whether it normally would: +3 bypasses cold iron/silver, +4 also bypasses alignment, and +5 even bypasses adamantine. Let's say we have a +1 weapon of normal make. It wouldn't bypass a demon's DR/cold iron. But what if it was +1 demon-bane? It would then act as a +3 weapon against demons. Does this include bypassing DR/cold iron? And if the DR was instead DR/cold iron and good, does a +2 demon-bane weapon bypass that?

It´s a two-step process:
First you total up an attack, then you compare it to static defenses.

So yes, +1 Demon Bane would bypass Cold Iron, +2 Demon Bane would be enough to bypass Cold Iron and Good.

Note that this is what makes classes that can use spontaneous Bane on their weapons (Inquisitor, Magus, Occultist) so versatile in Melee against Outsiders and such.

[Elder_Basilisk]

In a lot of ways, I'm happy with that result. If it didn't work that way, bane weapons would not be as effective as they should be against creatures with DR. For example, against demons, I would want a +2 demon bane sword to be as effective as a +1 holy sword. If it is noticeably less effective (the holy sword beats the DR, the demon bane sword doesn't), then you have to wonder why people make demon bane swords and bane would become a feature you tack on top of holy at the end (which is how it was in 3.5).

Now I'm not terribly happy about all the spontaneous bane features in Pathfinder defeating DR (and I'm not a huge fan of everyone and their mother having spontaneous bane whatever on tap as a general rule), but for weapons themselves, it seems like the way it should work and not just an artifact of the rules.

[Manyasone]

Funny, this is one of my few houserules I always use as DM. Special Material means Special Material, not a +equivalent that can penetrate it as well...Why my characters also carry cold iron and silver weapons most of the time instead of plain steel

[Florian]

Funny, this is one of my few houserules I always use as DM. Special Material means Special Material, not a +equivalent that can penetrate it as well...Why my characters also carry cold iron and silver weapons most of the time instead of plain steel

This is flagged as a Pathfinder discussion so there actually is no need to house-rule that stuff as equivalency-rules exist and you can find them in the core books. +3 beats special materials, +4 beats immaterial stuff like alignments, and so on. Don´t handle it that way, you´re deep into house-rule territory.
The question here i what happens when you use enhancements that provide a straight "plus" upgrade when used and the simple answer is that they act on that "plus" level then and bypass different kinds of DR now, no matter if the come from "bane" or "furious"...

[Manyasone]

This is flagged as a Pathfinder discussion so there actually is no need to house-rule that stuff as equivalency-rules exist and you can find them in the core books. +3 beats special materials, +4 beats immaterial stuff like alignments, and so on. Don´t handle it that way, you´re deep into house-rule territory.
The question here i what happens when you use enhancements that provide a straight "plus" upgrade when used and the simple answer is that they act on that "plus" level then and bypass different kinds of DR now, no matter if the come from "bane" or "furious"...
I know this, I master PF myself and it is one of the only RAW things I disallow...I've been roaming these boards for some time and I saw some truly strange and hair raising houserules to think this one doesn't really alter that much. I just prefer to let my player use the materials and alignment descriptors, not just circumvent them

[Florian]

I know this, I master PF myself and it is one of the only RAW things I disallow...I've been roaming these boards for some time and I saw some truly strange and hair raising houserules to think this one doesn't really alter that much. I just prefer to let my player use the materials and alignment descriptors, not just circumvent them

I call it a "problem", ok, other people might see it differently.
Third edition ended up with the "Golfbag and Caddy" problem unless certain enhancement were taken.
What that does is forcing weapon-based classes to spent more of their WBL on a broad selection of weapons to beat DR, ultimately, it just widens the gap between weapon- and caster-based classes for a small feeling of "reality" and that´s it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I call it a "problem", ok, other people might see it differently.
Third edition ended up with the "Golfbag and Caddy" problem unless certain enhancement were taken.
What that does is forcing weapon-based classes to spent more of their WBL on a broad selection of weapons to beat DR, ultimately, it just widens the gap between weapon- and caster-based classes for a small feeling of "reality" and that´s it.

There are cheap alchemical one-shot items for that too, and no competent melee should ever be more than slightly inconvenienced by 10 or 15 DR. It was basically the swordswingers equivalent to elemental resistances and fine that way.
The gap between casters and weapon users never had anything to do with damage, because even the lowly fighter does damage just fine with a bit of optimization.

On the other hand you have to ask yourself why they include material and alignment based DR when it's all overcome by +X enhancement bonus anyway.
Instead of a balance adjustment it just feels like dumbing it down to me, as if players are incapable of keeping up with too many variables.

I'd actually prefer it if DR/magic was still separated by enhancement bonus like in 3.0, because it gave a much better sense of "this monster is really hard to hurt without very powerful magic weapons".

[Manyasone]

There are cheap alchemical one-shot items for that too, and no competent melee should ever be more than slightly inconvenienced by 10 or 15 DR. It was basically the swordswingers equivalent to elemental resistances and fine that way.
The gap between casters and weapon users never had anything to do with damage, because even the lowly fighter does damage just fine with a bit of optimization.

On the other hand you have to ask yourself why they include material and alignment based DR when it's all overcome by +X enhancement bonus anyway.
Instead of a balance adjustment it just feels like dumbing it down to me, as if players are incapable of keeping up with too many variables.

I'd actually prefer it if DR/magic was still separated by enhancement bonus like in 3.0, because it gave a much better sense of "this monster is really hard to hurt without very powerful magic weapons".

Good thing you used the 3.0 reference. Because in second edition AD&D, your magic weapon had a chance of getting smashed on the monster at worst and just didn't do anything at best :smallamused:

[Florian]

Good thing you used the 3.0 reference. Because in second edition AD&D, your magic weapon had a chance of getting smashed on the monster at worst and just didn't do anything at best :smallamused:

Played Planescape? Now that particular rule could turn into a PITA based on where you bought our weapon and where you used it against what monster. Total headache. No wonder I killed too many bottles of Four Roses GMing that.

[Psyren]

There are cheap alchemical one-shot items for that too, and no competent melee should ever be more than slightly inconvenienced by 10 or 15 DR. It was basically the swordswingers equivalent to elemental resistances and fine that way.
The gap between casters and weapon users never had anything to do with damage, because even the lowly fighter does damage just fine with a bit of optimization.

Archers have to deal with DR too though, and they are even more screwed by it without this. The golfbag problem gets exacerbated when it applies to every shot and you have to track ammunition on top of it, plus the alchemical solutions need to be applied to individual arrows etc.

[Platymus Pus]

Can someone look up the spells.
FoeBane and BaneBow for me? :smallwink:

[Pex]

I suppose it would have to be a house rule, but I think it would be a reasonable house rule to say a bane weapon bypasses DR of the creature it is bane against and only against that creature type despite other creatures of the same DR regardless of its +#. In the instance of Inquisitor or any other class or ability that gives spontaneous bane, the +2 to hit and +2d6 damage are still there but DR counts against it as appropriate. If a demonbane weapon is itself made of cold iron and good aligned, so much the better against non-demon creatures of DR/cold iron and/or good, and it would be a potent magic item.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Archers have to deal with DR too though, and they are even more screwed by it without this. The golfbag problem gets exacerbated when it applies to every shot and you have to track ammunition on top of it, plus the alchemical solutions need to be applied to individual arrows etc.

I don't really see that. If anything archers have it easier in this one area because they can just buy specialized arrows and have all their general enhancements on the bow instead of needing different weapons. Instead they can load up on a few magic arrows with very specialized enhancements - a few Bane arrows for most types, Binding, etc. - something that melee can rarely afford.

As soon as you have extradimensional storage getting 50 each of silver/cold iron/adamantine arrows and keeping them around in case you run into something that needs them is trivial, and before that you won't need it. If you need more than 50 you should be aware that you're mostly fighting devils/demons or whatever beforehand and stock up accordingly. At higher levels you can also get the Force enhancement, which bypasses almost any DR.

As for tracking ammunition, that's hardly more trouble than playing a spellcaster. Just mark off how many arrows you've fired when your turn is done.
By the time you start firing 10+ arrows per round you can afford to get a wand of Abundant Ammunition, Endless Ammunition enhancement, an Endless Quiver or an Energy Bow so that you'll only have to track special ammunition.

[Manyasone]

Played Planescape? Now that particular rule could turn into a PITA based on where you bought our weapon and where you used it against what monster. Total headache. No wonder I killed too many bottles of Four Roses GMing that.

Oh yes, I played Planescape, it was the only campaign worth playing in second, imho, and Dark Sun. Two of the 'lesser' campaigns, but infinitely more fun than FR, for instance

[Psyren]

I don't really see that. If anything archers have it easier in this one area because they can just buy specialized arrows and have all their general enhancements on the bow instead of needing different weapons. Instead they can load up on a few magic arrows with very specialized enhancements - a few Bane arrows for most types, Binding, etc. - something that melee can rarely afford.

As soon as you have extradimensional storage getting 50 each of silver/cold iron/adamantine arrows and keeping them around in case you run into something that needs them is trivial, and before that you won't need it. If you need more than 50 you should be aware that you're mostly fighting devils/demons or whatever beforehand and stock up accordingly. At higher levels you can also get the Force enhancement, which bypasses almost any DR.

As for tracking ammunition, that's hardly more trouble than playing a spellcaster. Just mark off how many arrows you've fired when your turn is done.
By the time you start firing 10+ arrows per round you can afford to get a wand of Abundant Ammunition, Endless Ammunition enhancement, an Endless Quiver or an Energy Bow so that you'll only have to track special ammunition.

Or, I could just have a +5 bow and sod off with all this bookkeeping. I also won't be paying an extra 60gp for every adamantine arrow, which is a pain at low levels and irrelevant at high levels (when I'll have a +4-5 bow anyway.)